MAN WOMAN INTERACTION LECTURE #23 Budapest, Hungary, 10th Aug 2007 Part 3
Prabhu: Maharaja, you were saying that the order of the mind is sambandha-prayojana-abhideya, and the order of the intelligence is sambandha-abhideya-prayojana…
HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, you are looking at it from… It’s which aspect you are looking at it from, the subject or the object. Means, we are looking at it that there is the relationship, operating that relationship gets the result. That’s the logic, because that’s how the form of it works, so that’s the skill, that’s the knowledge that you sit down and study. But when you practically apply it, then seeing your relationship you have to want to act in that relationship. You know what I am saying? I can identify that, okay, this is my relationship with this person, but unless I want to activate it, or, let’s say, practically do something in it, nothing will happen. So when that consideration is a need, then only I will act. But the logic still works because after you will get the result. So in other words, it’s still going sambandha-abhideya-prayojana, but before abhideya starts, there is a touch of prayojana. Because if you don’t know where you are going, how do you get there? That’s why in explanation the purpose of something, it’s still sambandha. Because purpose means, what result you could get, not what result you are trying to get. So analyzing what are the elements of the field, what are their relationships, what you can gain from them, only if you are interested to work in that field, you get some result from the field, then you’ll act. But [indistinct 03:10] acting you get the result. But getting observable result is what the man is looking for. And getting the experience of the result is what the woman is looking for. That’s why sometimes men will make the mistake in dealing with women is that as soon as the result is obtained then activity is over. But because it takes time to generate an experience, just as there is preliminaries to generate, there is also conclusion to wind it down. Does that make sense? The man comes at the table, sits down, eats, goes away. So preliminary simply meant sitting in the chair and picking up the spoon. And conclusion means, putting down the spoon and getting up from the chair. But for the woman it’s all the arrangements before that, then sitting and appreciating it, then the food, and then afterwards, “Oh, how nice,” this that, and then slowly taking everything away. So that’s why if the men understand this the preliminaries and conclusion are pleasant, so it is nice. But only if it’s done like that will the woman be at it. You know what I am saying? Is that okay?
Mataji: The husband has to be humble in order to be able to help the wife, so when the wife gets angry, the husband must be humble first. But what happens if the husband is not willing to be humble but just [indistinct 06:03] being uncultured, how can the wife help the husband in that?
HH BVPS Maharaja: Then he’ll continue a disfunctional relationship. Women will try to kick-start the relationship. But the men have to do it, that’s what makes them men, they do it, they operate it. So the concept that the man is in charge and in control is correct. All women want a man that they control and operate the relationship. But the mistake is then what is the definition of control and operating? Because generally what happens is the soul inherently is feminine, the concept of operating it is feminine. Therefore even though they are “hoo and haa”, still they act like women. Leading, masculine means taking the leading role by properly performing the activities that you would want the other person to do. Means, to go back to Godhead, you have to be humble. You have to be tolerant, you have to respect others and not expect respect for yourself. So you have to develop that anyway. So why would an intelligent individual maintain… avoid that mentality in dealing with his family?
Grihastha life is an ashrama, it means that place where you can cultivate spiritual activities. So if you are a brahmachari in the temple, then you have the temple president and the Sankirtana leader and the temple commander to enforce humility, tolerance, respect and not expecting any respect for yourself. But in the grihastha ashrama then you have the same facility, there is an equal opportunity. But instead of the temple president and Sankirtana leader and temple commander, now it’s your wife and kids and other in-laws. Means, to go back to Godhead, you have to learn the same lesson. If you learn as brahmachari, you don’t need to get married. You don’t learn as brahmachari, you get married. If you want the marriage to work, you are forced to learn, you don’t want the marriage to work, go on in your illusion. But to go back to Godhead, you have to learn this anyway, so why not be mature and responsible and masculine and learn? You are supposed to be humble, the man takes the lead. You are supposed to be respectful, you are supposed to be tolerant, he takes the lead. That’s masculine. Do you understand? Any woman will follow that man. Does that make sense? Yeah.
So that’s the point is if it’s actually understood what it is, what is masculine and feminine then the family situation becomes pleasant, in which now instead of arguing all the time you can actually function and get the maximum Krishna conscious benefit. Because more time is saved for service, there is not an emotional riot going on. And the wife is being kept under control because of following the philosophy and that applied culture and therefore connecting it to Krishna. Does that make sense? It works, I mean, you look at the Bhagavatam, so many examples of it. Diti and Aditi both go to Kashyapa and they got a problem and they want him to take care of it. And in both cases their approach, their attitude, what they actually want is wrong. In both cases, he speaks to them very nicely. And in that way he pacifies and at least Aditi [indistinct 12:26], so she does the right thing. Or we even see Hiranyakashipu, number one demon, when his brother dies, then he is speaking philosophy, but he is speaking it in such a way, gently and nicely that the women of his family understand and they are pacified. So here is the biggest, nastiest, stinkiest masculine demon in the universe that can do whatever he likes. But he deals in the same rules with his own women. The nine planets, okay, tie them up, put them on these straps on your throne. Because that’s the… he is following there the principles of politics and power. But with his women, he follows those principles. Does that make sense? Otherwise, how does he get the time to spend time with the planets and walking on them if he would have to be in his house, working out problems with his wife? Because he has a peaceful home, therefore he can go out and be more nasty (?14:20) with the others. Does that make sense?
So it always works, everybody uses it in the scripture. That’s why we say, “Oh, but it works then” or “That’s 5,000 years ago, it’s different.” No, it’s no different now, men are still men, women are still women. You follow the same principles, it works today as well as it did 5,000 years ago. If it wasn’t practical, why would the scriptures mention it? So that’s what it says, Prabhupada is saying, husband and wife live peacefully together and execute Krishna consciousness. So if you don’t know the science, how it can be peaceful? If one is peaceful, then the direct Krishna consciousness can be increased. But if it’s not, then it just becomes difficult. Does that make sense? Anything else?
Mataji: In Kali yuga we see more and more men having a more feminine nature and more and more women having a more masculine nature, within the Krishna society and outside the Krishna society. In such a situation, should the couple… if the couple is kind-of such, should they remain as such and try to function with their material conditioned nature, or they should try to kind-of see how the lady [indistinct 17:00] and try to attain those standards?
HH BVPS Maharaja: We are speaking about the mentality, not the form it takes. You know what I am saying? Just like here we see that so many of the leading roles in management and the administration is taken by women. So we are not talking about that. We are talking about the attitude in which they deal with each other. If you change the attitude, then the men are men, women are women. Means, gross follow subtle. So unless the attitude right then it will be very hard to see any kind of traditional form. But traditional form is based on this mentality. Someone with this mentality, then this is the ideal form. So if ideal form is available, then it would always be preferred. But the cases where it’s not available or not practical, it doesn’t matter, because the mood, the mentality is still practiced. You know what I am saying? So it doesn’t change. Even if the boss… You are working in a karmi job and the boss is a woman, it doesn’t matter, she still appreciates it if you notice that her suit looks good. You know what I am saying? So even if externally women are performing men’s duties, their nature still doesn’t change. You know what I am saying? Water is ice or water is steam, but it’s still water. Do you understand?
How much time do you need to set up for prasada and do all the…
Prabhu: Not for prasada, we should break Ekadashi…
HH BVPS Maharaja: Oh, okay. So then, what would you… We go up to ten and then stop, or…?
HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay, so we stop at ten.
Mataji: You mentioned that those… only ladies, brahminical women are capable of [indistinct 20:37] living alone and…
HH BVPS Maharaja: [indistinct] 20:41
Mataji: …and what’s the reason for women belonging to other varnas not being capable of living alone? And also what happens when someone grows old and she will have to live alone anyway?
HH BVPS Maharaja: That’s something not talked about. All women end up alone anyway. The men always have a nasty habit of dying first. But the point is is… [Everyone laughing] Right? But what happens is once they cross out of certain age, then the force of the hormone is not longer there. So that enthuses the roller coaster’s effect. And ideally, if there’s been a lifetime of being supported, they’ve absorbed so much, now they can just give. Does that make sense? So then it works. Because women can be very practical. Can, means, women are 4 times more clever than men. Clever is practical intelligence. But they only apply this cleverness when they want to. That’s the point. So someone within the child-bearing age, then the brahminical nature then requires less. So it’s easier to deal with, the flips are smaller. You know what I am saying? So it’s more easy to keep under control. And the tendency to look at it more philosophically will be there. It’s not that they like being alone, but they can deal with it. While the other varnas then the desire, the passion is more, that the swings are so much more heavy that without support it’s very hard to work with. So ideally it’s a properly trained man, either it’s a father, a husband or a son. Or then if she does have, she is fortunate, she does have solid basis in other relationships, other ladies in the community, then it can work. You know what I am saying? So then it works better. That’s why you see, when they will become a recluse, if there is no support from father, husband or son. Generally, the recommended situation is that you are something extremely sattvic or transcendental. So therefore engaged in Deity worship or something that’s more sattvic, because it doesn’t generate passion, the lifestyle is simpler, they wear white, so therefore you don’t have to worry about many colors and all those things and then keeping up with girls who have men that buy them sarees. Of course, you are still left with the slight problems of variation within the white, even though no one else can see it, the little border, the little dinky things, those little dots that no one can see – that’s a dinky thing. You know, like that, is there enough folds there or not? [Laughter] So, it still got something so they can still express that “six time as envious,” you know. But because it’s acting in a very narrow range, you can work with it. Do you understand? Because the mode of goodness is actually very important to women.
Another formula is that when you reflect the goodness, passion and ignorance, it means, how you say, the samvit, sandhini, hladini potency into the material world, then you get goodness, passion and ignorance. So hladini reflects into goodness, so the feminine nature is situated in goodness. Goodness means the present, ignorance is the past, passion is the future. So that’s why it’s talked about in the shastra about “the moment.” So “the moment” means, where the woman is at this moment. So if the man deals with her at the moment, he is dealing in the present, therefore she can relate to it. But if she is being trippy and the man is saying “No, you should be more sense controlled,” this, that, that’s future. Or, “You were so nice before, what happened? You changed,” that’s past. So the man can go on all day saying whatever he likes, but unless what he is saying is in the present, it won’t work. Because only mode of goodness is a result that’s usable. Passion and ignorance always give a bad result. Does that make sense? That’s why a moment, we have to remember, is 1/11th of a second. So that’s all it takes is 1/11th of the second to start an argument. That’s because the man… one is dealing in a moment. So that means, then the man has to be very thoughtful, very concentrated. Very useful qualities. That’s why it’s said, if you can successfully live with a woman, you can manage an empire. The same focus it takes to actually deal properly with a woman you could manage, you know, the world. So all very, important, good qualities for men to learn, so they should take advantage. [Laughter] Does that make sense? So, it’s a very important… That’s why a man, even though, let’s say in the morning the wife said “Let’s do something in the evening.” So the man thinks the whole day “We are gonna do this in the evening.” But when he gets home he finds that’s not the case. Because it’s a different moment. In other words, the woman said that in the moment, it was favorable for that moment, so unless the experience of that moment lasts the whole day, then the activity in the evening will be different. So therefore men do well to not live in the mode of passion by thinking, “I’m going to do this!” Make no plans until you walk in the door, you know. So if you deal with the moment, it will work. But if you try to apply the [Indistinct 31:38] future or the past, that’s generally where men fail. So not dealing…. Because that’s the point, Krishna interacts with the devotee in what they are right now. So the masculine principle has to deal with the female with what mood she is in right now, it doesn’t matter what it was half a second ago, it’s just right now. So therefore if you said the wrong word or the wrong tone of voice, so instead of living in the past and saying, “What happened? Everything was going so nicely,” even though the past is only three nanoseconds before, a real man figures out what he did wrong, takes that humble mood, the sincere mood and corrects it and then it moves on after another two or three moments, so within the second it went from the top to potentially hitting the bottom, but it didn’t stay there.
Mataji: You mentioned this relationship between subject and object, that the object receives the experience, the object receives that [Indistinct 34:00] That the living entities are the object and Krishna is the subject. In this relationship, what does the subject get? What does Krishna get, the masculine principle get in that relationship?
HH BVPS Maharaja: Reciprocation. That’s why if the women don’t respond to the man’s endeavor, he gets frustrated. They just wanna know they are doing a good job, but the problem is is, unless they behave… means, unless they follow these principles, the woman won’t be happy and won’t say he is doing a good job. So if the man deals with the woman in the moment, she will be satisfied, and if she is satisfied, he’ll be satisfied. That’s why in Manu Samhita then Manu makes the point that if the wife is happy, the whole house is bright and if she is unhappy then it’s quite dark. There is no corner you can hide it [Indistinct 35:23] door. So that’s the point, the women turn to the men for security, so if he is dealing in a moment, that means there is a connection, because connection is now, not in the future will be or it was in the past, that’s not connection, connection is now. To deal in the moment, he must be considerate. And when the woman is confident, she always responds nicely. So she, what she is looking for is obtained, and what the man is looking for is only obtainable through that.
So these principles are the only way that you can make the male-female relationship work, then both are satisfied. What each is looking for is different, but the [Indistinct 36:40] is in the same thing, same activity. So sambandha or male is different from the prayojana or female, but the only place they meet is in abhideya. Does that make sense? So that’s why the interaction between Krishna and His devotees, that’s what’s most important to us. Krishna is God, He is the Lord, nice, important, that way we know, the role, the spot is already taken. But then the thing that’s actually attractive and nourishes that understanding is the relationship of Krishna with the devotees. So Krishna is existence, it’s good to know. But Krishna’s interaction, relationship with the created, that’s what’s important. So that’s the [Indistinct 38:17] state that we are created. So our existence, or our manifest existence depend upon Krishna interacting with the creation. Creation is the spiritual and the material world. Is that okay?
Mataji: So what should we think about making plans [Indistinct 39:07] to make plans, but somehow it’s said [Indistinct 39:11] professional, so how she can relate to his planning?
HH BVPS Maharaja: No, plan means you know where you are going. Like we said before, unless the prayojana is there, you don’t act. What we are meaning here is difference between planning and being intelligent that way in the mode of passion is the connection to the present. Then from the present I project into the future. Depending on the situation now this is where we could get, now what’s the plan for getting from where we are right now to where we want to go. So we are dealing with the future, but through the mode of goodness. Mode of passion, he is thinking about the future, it doesn’t have any connection with the present. That’s why I am saying it’s passion for the man to make the plan, because he doesn’t actually know what the moment is going on at home. So once he meets the wife, then he can decide what direction he wants to try to take it. But you have to start from what mood the wife is right now. Then you make the endeavor to take it wherever you want. The women want the man to take it somewhere, but the women want to be part of it. So unless they are considerate, they are not part of it. So couch-potatoness doesn’t take the woman into consideration. So as long as she is on the phone or doing something out, then you can be a couch potato. But as soon as she is not, then you have to be interactive. Does that make sense?
So we’ll end now. Jaya! Srila Prabhupada ki jaya! Samaveta-bhakta-vrinda ki jaya! Jaya Nitai-Gaura-premanande Hari Haribol!
Prabhu: His Holiness Bhaktividya Purna Maharaja ki jaya!