This transcription is by Uddhava Priya Prabhu, used with permission from lecture folio that you can download HERE

January 26, 2009

Maharaja: On the other hand, knowledge about the material creation, which describes the material objects as different energies of the Lord meant to be engaged in His service, is useful for spiritual advancement. Śrīla Prabhupāda explains in Renunciation through wisdom: 

The jīvas, being a product of the spiritual energy, try to exploit the material energy, but ultimately such attempts fail, because it is impossible for one energy to always exploit and lord it over another energy. The jīvas can, however, eternally serve the Supreme Energetic, Lord Kṛṣṇa. When the jīva exploits the material energy in his endeavor to serve the Lord, that activity is transcendental—the performance of sacrifice. Any other kind of activity amounts to nothing but materialistic, fruitive work.

Here Prabhupada is pointing out just a basic fact. One energy cannot permanently exploit another. Just it is not their nature because of the changeableness of it, because of the unsteadiness of it. There is always adjustment and change. It can never be always exploited. But energy connected to the energetic, that relationship is always dynamic, that can always be there. 

That means taking the position as the controller and the enjoyer of the material energy can’t work anyway. Energy doesn’t work like that. Here he is pointing out that therefore you naturally take up service to the Lord, that is eternal. In doing that whatever one is doing in taking advantage of the material facilities if they are engaged in Krsna’s service they are transcendental because it is called sacrifice. 

The idea that we can be the lord of the material energy we can’t anyway. That is just the nature. The way things are. 

Devotee (1): If we don’t engage in the Lord’s service isn’t us given the chance to exploit the material energy?

Maharaja: It is given the chance but how much can you always exploit it? When you are standing on the bridge of the Thames thinking about how life is so useless before you jump off are you exploiting material energy? Or have you been exploited by it? In other words, you are trying to lord it over but other living entities are trying to lord it over you, so who is on top of the pile? It is always changing. 

Just like you have a bee hive and they are all there, this and that, sometimes they are inside and sometimes they are outside, you can’t… Who is on top of the pile of a riving mass of living entities trying to be God, it is like King in the mountain. Can we say: someone can be permanently always King in the mountain? No, someone else is going to come and throw him off and they are King of the mountain, and the next comes and throws him off and they are king of the mountain. You just can’t do it. But service to Krsna that you can do whether you are king of the mountain or not. In other words whatever capacity you have to exploit the material energy if that is engaged in the Lord’s service that is transcendental. That is sacrifice because you are engaging your facilities for someone else’s satisfaction. That is Prabhupada says: You don’t have to change anything. You just have to take what you are involved in and connect that to Krsna. Of course, it is that simple, the difficulty is being able to do it. But it is actually that simple. 

Devotee (2): That’s why we are dying and being born and trying all of us changing bodies we are trying to exploit… 

Maharaja: Yes everybody is trying to exploit. 

Devotee (2): And if we engage that in Krsna’s service then we go back?

Maharaja: Yes because there is no need to go through birth, death, old age and disease because those are to point out that may be you are not in control

Devotee (3): …the statement everybody can be supreme also applies to material energy of exploiting the living entities. 

Maharaja: Yes, because at times she is neutral. When you have mahat then she controls the living entities. But when you have pradhana she doesn’t. The point is energy means it is always doing one thing and doing another. It is always moving back and forth. It is not stable in that way. 

The living entities in the spiritual world because they are always connected to Krsna therefore then it is always consistent. And in that way there can also be a consistent hierarchy of devotional service. The energy can maintain a consistent spiritual status because of the connection with Krsna. But you can’t maintain a consistent material status. This life you are a king, next life you are a beggar, next life you are human, next life you are an animal. So it can’t be maintained. But when the jiva connects to the energetic, the source of energy that relationship is stable, is steady. 

This type of knowledge is called aparā vidyā, or material knowledge connected with the Lord. Apart from its significance on the level of proper manipulation of gross matter, the aparā vidyā can give valuable insights into the mechanism of the subtle matter controls the spirit soul. In order to become liberated from his conditioning one should be acquainted with the apparatus and the method of this conditioning. He should know the nature of the mind, the means by which the mind conditions him, and the means by which the mind can be properly trained. To have a properly trained mind is very important because the friendly mind can save the soul from the ocean of birth and death.11

11 "For man, mind is the cause of bondage and mind is the cause of liberation. Mind absorbed in sense objects is the cause of bondage, and mind detached from the sense objects is the cause of liberation." (Amåta-bindu Upaniñad 2) 

Therefore, the mind which is always engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the cause of supreme liberation.

The point is what you are attached is what you do. The mind has an identity. The mind has a goal. Therefore there is an activity to connect those two. If the mind’s identity is mundane, its goals are mundane, the action will be mundane. If the identity is spiritual, the goals therefore will be spiritual, the action will be spiritual. That’s why it all hinges around the mind. You are using the intelligence to control it. 

Therefore the concept of just intelligence and just rules actually doesn’t do the work because you are trying to catch the mind. You are not trying to follow a rule but you are trying to catch the mind. The process of following these rules and sadhana-bhakti, that engages the mind. That’s why they are important because they can shift the mind from material engagement and attachment into spiritual engagement and attachment. That is why it is useful. 

Why do you use a knife in the kitchen? Let’s say I want to boil some rice. I need a pot, water, rice, salt, do I need a knife? No, is a knife useful? Yes, but do I need to use it to boil rice? No, but when it is useful, let’s say I cut a pototo it is useful. Therefore I engage things as they are useful. Material energy it is in a neutral state. You use it for Krsna it takes you back to Godhead, you don’t use it for Krsna you got a problem. 

The idea is you change the mind from being the controller and enjoyer of the material energy which you can’t do anyway, you can do it temporarily here and there but you can’t do it consistently. But that one gives satisfaction to the soul which is eternal, so service to Krsna that will give that, the other can’t. 

Pandava Bandhu Prabhu will now give a conclusion on this: 

Devotee (3): As Maharaja explained in one of his previous lectures the Vedic method of presentation brings the real knowledge and then all the misunderstandings and speculative theories are explained in a second. This is done in this sequence that all the misunderstandings and misconceptions they will be dealt in the light of the proper knowledge. 

Following this logic the Isopanisad starts with the invocation mantra where it is described that the Supreme Lord is the origin of everything and that He is perfect and complete and that all His energies that emanate from Him are also perfect and complete. In the context of Prabhupada’s purport these energies refer to two things: first the material universe, it is perfect in a sense that it is completely independent and all the other units outside the universe don’t need to do any extra endeavor to maintain the universe. Also the universe has its own time scale. The jivas are perfect in a sense that they have enough intelligence so that they can understand and reconnect to the Supreme Lord. So this is the sambandha-jnana mantra. We see already here in the very beginning of Isopanisad the three features of sambandha are presented: cit, acit and isvara. 

Later on we see that this sambandha-jnana is translated into the language of abhidheya. How this sambandha jnana can be used by the living entities and how we apply this knowledge in our life. Mantra 1 specifically describes this. According to mantra 1 the Supreme Lord is the owner of everything, He pervades everything and all the living entities should act with this understanding. This is explained in mantra 1 and if they act in this understanding that means that they will be liberated, this is mantra 2 and if they reject the isavasya principle then they will fall down, this is explained in mantra 3. Mantras 1-3 already introduce the topic of naiskarmya which will be further explained later in Bhagavad-gita, we will deal with this more elaborately later. 

Then mantras 4-5 they shift again back to sambandha because the inconceivable characteristics of the Lord they have to be established, so mantras 4 and 5 they establish this, that the Lord is fixed in His own abode but at the same time He walks and doesn’t walk, He is far and very near. 

Then mantra 6 describes the inconceivable characteristics of the Lord how they can be only seen and understood by the maha-bhagavata devotee. Mantras 6-8 explain the vision of such Devotees:  how they view the world and how they view the Lord and His energies, and they see everything systematically related to Krsna. Only they can actually see the Lord how He is described in mantras 4-5 and this way of vision is the result of following the isavasya principle which is described in mantras 1-3. 

If someone doesn’t follow this isavasya principle then mantras 9-14 describes what is the result. 

So again we can see hear how the Isopanisad first presents the knowledge, what is the result of following the knowledge, what is the anomalies, and what is the result of following the anomalies. 

Mantras 9-14 describe the different grades of non-devotees and the different inauspicious results they have to face. Mantras 9-11 describe there are different results if you cultivate knowledge and you indulge in ignorance. And mantras 12-14 describe that there are also different results if someone worships the Absolute truth and the relative truths. 

And now we will go on with mantras 15-18 where we have the prayers of the devotee because the acaryas explain in the commentaries that all this knowledge that is given to us in the Isopanisad can be realized only when there is a sufficient education in a sense of achieving the mercy of the Lord. So Maharaja will go on.

Maharaja: How he has brought this we see that you have established the Lord because that is actually the main problem that the jiva has: Who is God. Having established that, you have established God and His creation. Isavasya principle establishes that: There is God, there is His creation. He is the Lord, He is the controller of the creation. You follow this it goes well, you don’t follow this it doesn’t do well. 

So now expanding then, it says in the next group of verses He expanded that what is God, what is the nature of the jiva, the living entity and if you act properly it is transcendental, if you don’t it will be materialistic. 

So therefore what is the attitude then of the devotee, how he can understand that sambandha-jnana and use it properly.

And then what is the attitude of the materialist and then results they get. 

Is that clear? It is very simply presented. The Upanisads appear very complex but actually they are quite simple. It is just the language they use that is very sophisticated. As pointed out here you establish a thesis then you go on to explain it, you expand on that, Krsna is God and all this. Then the middle is all your activities. Then you are going to conclude. So very nicely this whole process of pancanga-nyaya is being affected. 

Now as it is saying here from 15-18 the prayers of the devotees. So now we have established the position of the devotee over the non-devotee and the worship of the Lord over not accepting that. 

Someone who is in that platform how does he behave, what is his prayer? 

Mantras 15-18

The devotee’s prayer

From Mantras 12-14 we understood that the material energy should be studied only in connection with the Lord. 

That means even if you want to do something, you need for example some skill for an occupation to make money but in that study you should still see that knowledge in connection with the Lord because it is still going to work on the Lord’s principles of how the material energy functions. It is not going to work on something else. If you see it in connection with that then it becomes Krsna conscious. 

Of course if the fruit is given that means everything else before that because a fruit comes only after having a focus, having a need, making an endeavor then you get a result. So after all these aspects then the result comes, you give the result to Krsna then all the other things are connected. So that will purify and uplift. But within this because Krsna consciousness is a voluntary process, Krsna consciousness is based on a dynamic or active desire of the living entity to serve and please Krsna, it is not simply a state of existence, it is not he is serving, it is he serves. 

So the idea is that you are engaging the fruit so that is an endeavor. Having gotten that that the fruit is engaged therefore naturally by being purified by that then jnana and vairagya come, one becomes more aware of the process by which you got that fruit. Then that can be offered to the Lord also. Because when you offer the fruit then that is called renunciation. When the whole process is already offered because it is not actually yours to begin with that is sannyasa. The idea is the living entity comes from the platform of fruitive work to the point of renunciation, and from renunciation to sannyasa. 

Devotee (2): What is the difference between renunciation and sannyasa?

Maharaja: Renunciation means it is my work, my result but I know that this result should be given to Krsna. Sannyasa means the work is Krsna’s, the result is Krsna’s, the process how you get it is all Krsna’s and as service to Krsna I will engage in this activity. So the result is Krsna’s before you start. Renunciation means it is Krsna’s after you get it. 

Devotee (2): Sannyasa means they don’t renounce action?

Maharaja: No. The point is sannyasa is a mentality. The devotee’s mentality is that in dealing with material energy, yukta-vairagya is sannyasa. So the principle is that anybody in any position can be sannyasa. But at least if they don’t figure that out through their devotional activities then minimally at least for piety they will at the end of life take up the attitude of sannyasa as a asrama. But that is not the ideal. It is not that the whole life you go through and then at the end of life then you become Krsna conscious. It is supposed to be that you are Krsna conscious throughout your whole life. At least minimal this element of sannyasa is practiced by the living entity at the end of life but ideally if they are intelligent they should be practicing it the whole time. 

Sannyasa is not dealing with a result or an activity, sannyasa is that the appropriate activity that I am engaged in according to my position is for the pleasure of Krsna and not for me. That is sacrifice. That is sannyasa. 

Devotee (2): So many devotees can act without actual sannyasa order and become sannyasis

Maharaja: That is what we said the order of sannyasa is there just to ensure that at some point in your life you do this. But you are supposed to be always doing this. Like is chanting 16 rounds the perfection of being absorbed in the holy name? 

Devotee (2): No.

Maharaja: What about the other 22 hours a day? 

Devotee (2): Also should be. 

Maharaja: So that is more than 16 rounds. So the perfection is you always 24/7 chant Hare Krsna. If you can’t do that then at least minimally chant 16 rounds every day. 

That’s the point: everyone should have the mentality of sannyasa throughout their whole devotional life but if not then at least at the end of life one should take up that mentality. You know let the young kids do all that stuff. So sannyasa is a mentality. 

Does the woman have to be the biological parent of the child to have a motherly affection towards it? No. For some people that is 101% correct, but if it is then why is it that sastra gives 7 kinds of mothers, only one of them is a biological mother. The nurse also, you don’t think the person who raises the child and stays with the child all day and the parents see them for an hour or two in the evening that that nurse is not going to be attached to that child and take care of it in a parental mood? The wife of the brahmana, the wife of the King they don’t have this kind of mood? The point is it is not necessary but if you don’t develop it then by having your own kid at least there at some point you have that tolerance and appreciation of this relationship. 

So the whole idea is the system is made to be fool-proof. And we are the fools. Despite us the process still works. So if after enough lifetimes of taking sannyasa eventually it kind of becomes, well it is ok to act in that mentality. Then one will start to act in that mentality earlier and earlier. The point is the mentality. 

The gopis never took sannyasa as an asrama but they are understood as the greatest sannyasis because everything is connected to Krsna. There is no question of it being otherwise. 

But for rasa there is the social form means the mood has to be expressed through a form. So therefore the forms then become important. So even though the gopis are on a higher level of sannyasa than let’s say Durvasa Muni still they respect him as a sannyasi and he deals with them as young girls. That is rasa. But as far as devotional commitment their sannyasa is much greater than his. But a devotee is humble they don’t think like that. They do think like that Krsna leaves. 

Devotee (4): Is the difference of renunciation and sannyasa the same as between niskama-karma yoga and bhakti?

Maharaja: No, niskama-karma-yoga is sannyasa. 

Devotee (4): I have heard a definition of niskama-karma-yoga where you are attached to the activity but not to the fruits

Maharaja: Yes, but the naiskarmya means you are giving up the fruit. 

Devotee (4): Bhakti means you surrendered the fruits and you do whatever Krsna wants.

Maharaja: No, that means you are performing naiskarmya with devotion. Naiskarmya gets you liberated. It is not devotional. That it is connected to Krsna that makes it devotional. The potato is not devotional, it is not spiritual. But you connect it to Krsna then therefore it becomes spiritualized. Its value it its connection to Krsna. 

It is not necessarily that you are attached to performing those kinds of activities. Just those activities are compatible with your conditioned nature, they are non-different. As we were reading this morning.The karma connected with the body is non-different from the body. So therefore the nature to be able to serve in that way is non-different from the conditioned nature. So if you engage in your conditioned nature you are automatically engaging the abilities that it has and the situations that attributed to it. It is just it is more comfortable there. So to do service outside of that would not be as comfortable. 

In other words you are starting from the position of I am doing this because I want the result. Then I am doing this I want the result but I give the result, some portion or all of it to Krsna. Then it is I am serving Krsna. I am connecting my conditioned nature to Krsna’s service for His pleasure and I am not in any way trying to claim ownership over the results. And then it is I am surrendered to Krsna, whatever Krsna wants me to do I’ll do. So then whatever is available you use that in Krsna’s service, whether it is according to your conditioned nature or not. So it reverses. 

In other words, I start my position because I am interested in my position. I start in my position because that is what I am in. Then it is I am servant of Krsna then let’s see what facilities I have and what I can do. So that is sarva-dharman you give up everything for Krsna. So it is not even engaging our conditioned nature. I am just engaged in Krsna’s service. It matches my conditioned nature, it doesn’t match it doesn’t matter I will serve.

Monkeys don’t build bridges and fight wars. They sit in trees and eat fruits. But Hanuman is willing to go through all that for Ramacandra. That is sarva-dharman parityajya. Whatever it is that pleases that is what He does. 

It might start in the beginning with the madhyama platform that you like doing the activity but by the end otherwise you do you have asakti, how do you have attachment to the holy name? It doesn’t mentioned attachment to that… it is just it is comfortable doing those things. The husband and wife in the beginning of life their attachments are there based on so many needs but at the end of the life it is companionship. It is just comfortable, each one knows each other, knows what they do, they have a nice routine, and they can just very comfortably without thinking about it be engaged in Krsna’s service. There is no trips, no nothing, it is very comfortable. That is then vanaprastha. It is just then the natural position is there. But still there is beyond that, beyond your comfortable position. That is why then there is sannyasa. But the comfortable position is in connection with Krsna so therefore it is sacrifice it is spiritual. 

But we are talking within spiritual there is gradation. Otherwise how do you tell the difference between Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan, they are all spiritual? You have to be able to tell the difference. That is the whole point: This kind of spiritual intelligence. Because material intelligence we cultivate but we have to cultivate spiritual intelligence be able to discriminate between spiritual entities. Because very intelligent people materially can’t sometimes tell the difference between spiritual things because it is a different kind of intelligence. Devotion comes from devotion. It doesn’t come from material jnana or karma. 

Devotee (5): Maharaja, when you were talking about naiskarmya, karma-arpanam and karma-yoga is that addressing the same principle?

Maharaja: Yes. Karma-yoga simply means engaging one’s activities, that could be sakama or niskama. Technically speaking niskama means jnana-yoga. Because when karma-yoga is performed without attachment to the result it automatically is jnana-yoga. But technically the activity is still being connected to the Lord. So Vaisnava-jnana-yoga includes karma-yoga. That is why that combination is called buddhi-yoga. It is given its own specific title. Otherwise there are two separate aspects. Karma-arpana is that you are giving the result but that result can be either renunciation or sannyasa.

In other words these topics include the whole thing but depending upon how it is being discussed or being viewed then we are going to view it from a particular perspective. It is the same knowledge. So depending upon that then it will be called karma-yoga, karma-arpana and naiskarmya. 

Devotee (5): You said that reverses as well. In conditional ways it is that naiskarmya is the top but in terms of renunciation it reverses. 

Maharaja: That means, you are going to start doing an activity. You are going to start giving a result to Krsna, then you are going to be basically giving everything, giving yourself and all that. If you are looking at that then that puts the naiskarmya that nothing is yours is on the highest. But at the same time naiskarmya also has a form, a process of knowledge and renunciation which is aimed at liberation. Knowledge and renunciation is aimed at freeing yourself from the material entanglement: getting rid of sin, freeing yourself from material attachment and bringing yourself to the transcendental platform. In that way then it reverses, is that therefore the formal form of naiskarmya is lower and karma-arpana is that actually, because the naiskarmya can mean it is my duty to do this without attachment but it still is not focused on really the giving of the result to someone. It is simply the result is not mine. In other words, the first stage is the result is not mine, then the next is the result is for someone else, then the point is all my action, the result everything is for someone else. So that puts then karma-yoga at the top. 

So if we are looking at it as forms then we put karma-yoga below naiskarmya. But if we are looking at it as mentalities then karma-yoga is higher than that. The point is it always reflects like that. So what is the highest here is the lowest here. The Vaikuntha mood in the spiritual world is considered the highest in the material world, that kind of following the rules, awe and reverence and all that, that is considered higher here and that more spontaneous emotional is considered lower but in the spiritual world it is the opposite. That is why in understanding the philosophy you have to understand the form of it and the attitude of it that is why so many times in application it goes opposite. 

So if you understand the principles on which it is based then you can really deal with is the form ideal, is the form not, or how is the best way of applying this principle? But that means there must be more depth and understanding of that philosophy and its application. The form is to ensure that whether there is great understanding and the mood is right or not, the form of it at least works in the devotional or social or academic or economic or sensual form. At least something is going on properly that the human culture works. But human society is meant to become God conscious to go back to Godhead. That is what it is for. But at least the natural form of how a Krsna conscious devotee would live, behave and interact with others that should be in place by rules. Because the point of those rules is to create the environment in which you can understand and practice that knowledge you come to the level of realization. Then you can always apply it. 

That’s why you have the element that the forms reverse. Simply it is just a matter of what you are looking at. If you are looking at it within action in the material world then one is on top. If you are looking at it compared to the spiritual world then it reverses because just getting out of the material world that is just the bottom line. That is one category. Then getting into the spiritual world that has so much development. It is just a matter of whether you are looking at it as this or that. Histories, dharma-sastra, artha-sastra, niti-sastra, kama-sastra they look at it from the purview of this. And how to get this to get you to that. But if you look at it from the perspective of that then the material energy is one group and then there is variety within the spiritual. If you are looking at it from this then the variety is within the material to get to the one thing, the spiritual. If I am here I look at everything here. If I am there I look at everything from that perspective. So that is the importance of understanding the perspectives of this that. That is the Upanisads: this means the material world, that means that spiritual world. 

The acaryas help us establish… depending upon where we are we will be looking at more to this: so that would be the form of karma-yoga, especially sakama-karma-yoga, then coming to the point of karma-arpana, where I can see that, oh actually these results are better more for Krsna. Then coming to the form of naiskarmya where I give up everything for Krsna. 

But within that then once one comes to that level so then it reverses. So in other words, so basically it has come like that but now it connects like this. So it is naiskarmya that stays in its same place it doesn’t become reduced. By doing this it is in its same position. So technically you could say within naiskarmya you have these levels. But because naiskarmya would be the lowest of these levels you don’t use those terms necessarily. Like this karma-yoga where all your activities are completely perfectly connected to the Lord’s service. That is the highest. 

You wouldn’t call naiskarmya when it is actually the activity without the mentality. Karma-yoga means my activity, my mood, my mentality, my desires, my interest, my excitement, my needs, my experiences – everything is connected to Krsna. While naiskarmya means all that is not connected to Krsna but the result is connected to Krsna. And to some degree the activity… slowly slowly it comes because it transforms. 

Just like you come to the platform of prema but prema has ten divisions, maha-bhava being the last. Prema is actually the second stage. So naiskarmya you could say is technically the second stage because you have sakama and niskama. And then niskama has all these other developments in actuality. 

But because you are looking at the perspective of the moods so therefore you put naiskarmya at the bottom and karma-yoga at the top, and karma-arpana as the transition. If you are looking at it simply to get involved and to get the intelligence and discriminate and learn the rules and practices then you are going to look at sakama-karma-yoga and niskama-karma-yoga. Then karma-arpana will be between those two. In other words karma-arpana is always the sandhi. It is always the active principle of giving up the results of your activities for someone else, so sacrifice will be there. 

But now the point is that perfection is not just I am thinking like that but I am doing it. Like sraddha is I am thinking Krsna consciousness looks like a better lifestyle than materialism, but having come to that then one comes to the action of sadhu-sanga and bhajana-kriya. In other words I am doing it for myself, the activity is for myself and the mood of it is for myself, the fruit is mine, it is all mine. Karma-arpana means I start to have a doubt on this. So I start thinking and technically take the thing and make it for someone else. While the niskama means it is already automatically for someone else I don’t have to go through the mechanics of it, I can function in the principle of naiskarmya. I don’t have to get it from the one to the other. So in the same way is then from the naiskarmya then it is a matter of I am doing this for a person. So that would be the karma-arpana. Then it comes to a point where it is simply done to please that person, Krsna. So that would be your karma-yoga. That is why it says the gopis, they are not big jnanis this that, they just engage themselves in Krsna’s service, so that would be your perfection what we are talking here of karma-yoga. And yogis like Durvasa and that they are jnana-yogis, they are in jnana-yoga. So there it is lower. 

Devotee (2): If karma-yoga is I am doing this for Supreme Personality of Godhead then what is devotion?

Maharaja: They are non-different. Prabhupada doesn’t make a difference. 

Devotee (2): Karma-yoga and devotion is not different?

Maharaja: What is the difference between devotional service and bhakti-yoga? 

Devotee (2): No difference. 

Maharaja: So it is just a different term. Like what is the difference between nice, good, great? It is the same. They are just different synonyms. They are naturally different synonyms but at the same time they can also be used in their own context. As a form then there is a difference. But as a mood they are not different. If karma-yoga means a mood they are not different. If karma-yoga means a form they are different. 

Devotee (2): The 9 processes of devotional service which one of them goes in karma-yoga?

Maharaja: They all can as mentality. It doesn’t matter. As form then you generally take pada-sevanam, dasyam, arcanam these things like that you can take and put that in there because they have that but at the same time they don’t. It just depends on the mentality.

The whole idea is to be able to discriminate between mentalities. If you have material consciousness or material mentality we stay here. We give up material mentality we are not here anymore. So this mentality is important. But because we identify with the gross body and what is connected with it, the karmic reactions that is connected with it, therefore we need religion in the form that is connected with our conditioned nature because that is all we see. 

You don’t see it in another perspective. The other perspective is that it should be seen in connection with Krsna. That is why the form is there because technically what is the importance of engaging an illusion in Krsna’s service? Not so important when the soul has the opportunity to engage reality in Krsna’s service. The spiritual world is real. Material energy is real but what we think it is that is an illusion. So material existence is illusory. But the point is that still the method of engaging the spiritual reality in Krsna’s service and the material illusion in Krsna’s service it works on the same formulas. Therefore it also if it is done in connection with Krsna becomes devotional service. 

But the point is the illusory element at one point must gradually gradually be given up. The important thing is is it connected to Krsna. That makes it worthwhile. But in doing that still the attachment we have for the material energy and being involved with it that must be given up. Because if you don’t give it up how do you go to the spiritual world? You can’t take it with you. 

Devotee (2): We can’t give it up unless we replace it with spiritual

Maharaja: That is there but people do try to give it up and not replace it. Like before you came to Krsna consciousness you had a diet

Devotee (2): Diet?

Maharaja: Means a cuisine that you would eat. Now you joined Krsna consciousness what is the Krsna conscious food? 

Devotee (2): Prasadam.

Maharaja: But what particular kind of prasadam I am talking culture. 

Devotee (2): There is particular

Maharaja: How does it look like? Give me a typical lunch menu. 

Devotee (2): Rice, dal, chapatti, sabji, kacori, savories…

Maharaja: That is what you eat for lunch every day. That is what you cook for the Deity but what do you eat? 

Devotee (2): I can’t eat rice and dal because my teeth are not good

Maharaja: So you eat only the Sabji and the chapatti. 

Devotee (2): Sabji if it is soft. 

Maharaja: And then chapatti?

Devotee (2): No.

Maharaja: So you just eat sabji? 

Devotee (2):

Maharaja: So that would be a necessity. But other people what do they eat? 

Devotee (2): It depends what they like.

Maharaja: That is my point. It is what they like. It is not a Vaisnava standard because what they like. So they have given up one culture but they haven’t accepted another culture. So they live in the vacuum. 

So connecting it to Krsna is the essential element. So they are doing that. So that is why devotionally it goes on and they make devotional advancement. But culturally then you have some difficulties because it is not based on a particular kind of cooking, it is not based on the principle of cooking. So what is it based on? 

Devotee (1): What pleases Krsna

Maharaja: Yes, that is all that is there. 

Devotee (1): What does Krsna want to eat.

Maharaja: That is not necessarily a consideration either. In the temple yes, but in the home no. So you have all these different things in between, that is the meaning you can try to give up material energy without accepting the spiritual. Devotees do it all the time. 

Devotee (2): What problem do they experience? 

Maharaja: You tell me you live out there

Devotee (2): I am asking you I am here to learn.

Maharaja: Basically there is no common platform of which to interact

Devotee (2): Interact with whom?

Maharaja: With the devotees. You have dadāti pratigåhëāti bhuìkte bhojayate guhyam ākhyāti påcchati. You are given three options. 

What we were discussing is bhunkte bhojayate. You take prasada with the devotees and interact but if there is not a common platform of food then how do they commonly interact? One person considers food, the other person doesn’t, one man’s food is another man’s poison. 

Devotee (2): So if I don’t like what this devotees take sabji, rice…I will not take prasadam with them

Maharaja: Basically, and you won’t invite them over to your place. So where is the forum for that association? So unless there is a lot of tolerance where… 

Guhyam akhyti prcchati means I can discuss with another and that can be confidential. But nowadays in the era of so-called truth there can be no confidentiality which means there can be no depth of relationship. So two down. So it doesn’t leave a whole lot. 

That’s why I am saying you can try to get out of the material energy without getting into the spiritual world. So philosophically devotees are doing a good job of getting out of the material world and getting into the spiritual world. But culturally no. So therefore it becomes speculative. That is what Prabhupada says philosophy without religion is mental speculation. So when it comes to what is food it can’t be described, what is dress it can’t be described, what is activity it can’t be described. It just can’t because they don’t know what it is. Therefore it is speculation. 

If we gave everyone a piece of paper and wrote down what is Vaisnava education for a child growing up in Krsna consciousness, what would be the appropriate dress, what would be the appropriate lifestyle, you hand them all in guaranteed as many people as there are in this room there will be different opinions. That means culturally there is not a communality, but philosophically and devotionally yes. 

So that is the strength but because the living entity is conditioned generally he kind of needs this social scenario. That is what naiskarmya is: You engage your social and economic and all these different positions in Krsna’s service. So if they are not common then it becomes very difficult for devotees to engage them together and that is what is called community. So you have devotional sat-sanga, devotional association, you just don’t have community that’s all. 

Devotee (2): Why in some place there is community and in some place there is not? 

Maharaja: I have seen one community. In Bombay. 

Devotee (2): Which temple.

Maharaja: Chowpatty. Because they all come from the same background. They all have the same values. They are all Hindus, practicing, they are generally all very pious Hindus, and they have taken up Krsna consciousness. They have community. They work out education for the kids, they make schools, they make hospitals, they take care of the devotees, they support each other.

Someone needs to buy a house, a young man has grown up and he needs to buy some real estate, those devotees in real estate help him find it, he has to pay for it but they find it and he get it at the best price for him. They help and train in how to be married and all that, they take care of you why you are married. Nobody gets kicked out of their community because they take care of them. That is community. 

Devotee (2): What about the rest of the world?

Maharaja Yes. It is a problem, it is a big problem. That is why devotees socially and emotionally are frustrated and have no trust. And many don’t even have faith that relationships actually exist and can work. So philosophically accept the concept of God and all that but it is the philosophy. But when push comes to shove and things don’t go right for them then they don’t have faith that God is taking care. These are the social problems that we have. Why? Because the neophyte is too attached to his own culture and is unwilling to take up the Vaisnava culture. 

Even if he is attached to his own culture but take it up in the mood of the Vaisnava culture. The point is you want to cook Western food but know how to cook, no one is cooking the science of cooking. Know how to have a menu. Why do they have salad? Salad is raw food you can’t digest it, why do you need it? Because if you eat all kinds of stuff like boiled wheat you get constipation, you eat salad it will make things work. All these things are there in these traditions because of that but they are not even following that either. When they eat it in the meal, when they do that this. These cultures have done that because it works. 

Devotee (2): They are missing education.

Maharaja: Yes, education is missing. 

Devotee (2): And leadership. 

Maharaja: Yes.

Devotee (2): So we are not guilty about this.

Maharaja: Ok, if that’s how you want to approach it then you are not guilty. But you have gotten to the essence. (end of lecture) (end)

(26th Jan 2009, Śrī Īśopaniṣad Lecture #31, Bhaktivedānta Academy, Śrīdhāma Māyāpura)

This transcription is by Uddhava Priya Prabhu, used with permission from lecture folio that you can download HERE

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