This transcription is by Uddhava Priya Prabhu, used with permission from lecture folio that you can download HERE

January 22, 2009

HH Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Mahārāja:

Mantra 13

Mantras 10 and 13 have similar messages. From Mantra 10 we learned that the cultivation of knowledge and nescience brings different results. In Mantra 13 it is confirmed that the worship of the Absolute Lord leads to different results compared with the worship of what is different from the Supreme. Both Mantras point out that the source of genuine knowledge is “dhéra”, or the undisturbed Vedic authority. 

The undisturbed authority is the Ācārya who is not a victim of material desires and can therefore remain constantly engaged in devotional service. The undisturbed Vedic authority is described in Śrī Upadeçāmåita and Bhagavad-gītā as follows:

“A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world.” (Nectar of Instruction, verse 1)

“As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person (dhéra) is not bewildered by such a change.” (BG 2.13)

Since the nondevotees are constantly disturbed by the onslaught of material desires they are not qualified to speak on spiritual topics. Therefore we should not listen to their explanations:

“One should not hear anything about Kṛṣṇa from a non-Vaiṣṇava. Milk touched by the lips of a serpent has poisonous effects; similarly, talks about Kṛṣṇa given by a non-Vaiṣṇava are also poisonous. One must be a bona fide devotee, and then he can preach and impress devotional service upon his listeners.”  (SB 6.17.40 purport)

The results of listening from a bona fide Spiritual Master and from a mundane speculator will be different. One who listens from a person who is disturbed by the whirlpool of material energy will not achieve faith in the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It has been pointed out many times that prior to Śrīla Prabhupāda’s arrival in America there were many Bhagavad-gītā translations available on the market. But as they were not presented by an undisturbed Vedic authority they failed to produce devotees. In his purport to mantra 13 Śrīla Prabhupāda explains:

Before hearing the Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna was disturbed by the material whirlpool, by his affection for his family, society and community. Thus Arjuna wanted to become a philanthropic, nonviolent man of the world. But when he became budha by hearing the Vedic knowledge of the Bhagavad-gītā from the Supreme Person, he changed his decision and became a worshiper of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, who had Himself arranged the Battle of Kurukñetra. Arjuna worshiped the Lord by fighting with his so-called relatives, and in this way he became a pure devotee of the Lord. Such accomplishments are possible only when one worships the real Kṛṣṇa and not some fabricated "Kṛṣṇa" invented by foolish men who are without knowledge of the intricacies of the science of Kṛṣṇa described in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. 

Inspired by Śrīla Prabhupāda’s Bhagavad-gītā As It Is and following Arjuna’s exemplary surrender thousands of Westerners opposed their materialistic relatives and decided to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Thus Bhagavad-gītā As It Is produced the same result as it produced five thousands years ago – the illusion was destroyed and the pure devotional service, in terms of understanding, practical application, and ultimate goal, was firmly established. 

Mantra 10 and 13 have a similar nature. They are both about vidya and avidya. But one is about knowing what is vidya and avidya. The other is based on that what are you going to do with that knowledge? Worship, because worship will be your process. One will be your situation and knowledge and one will be the process that is followed. It is the same thing but a different aspect. Instead of sambandha we are dealing with the abhidheya. And in either case the prayojana of both will be different. If you have the material knowledge then naturally it will be applied so you get a material result. And then the material activity being performed that would give then a different result. Therefore one must be able to distinguish between material knowledge and material activity, and spiritual knowledge and spiritual activity. Because you may have spiritual knowledge but if you can’t distinguish between activities then there will be still a problem and difficulty when you apply it.

The devotees can go out and it doesn’t matter how new they are or how long they have been around they have the same ability to affect others. The more developed then the more they can affect. But even if they are not so developed they still have effect. While the materialist even though they are very expert in the Vedic literatures and Sanskrit and so mnay different things, if they are not devotees they are not creating any devotees even though their scholarship is very great, their piety, commitment, explanantion. Some of them when they talk it is just so wonderful to hear. They are like perfect aurators, it is so attractive,  but still no one becomes a devotee. But a new devotee even though he is not so expert in presenting it he can convince others and they can become devotees. That is the example being given that it is very important to distinguish that one who worships the Lord that is the correct position and one who doesn’t worship the Lord he can, no matter what, he can’t be properly situated. It just won’t work out right.

Devotee (1): A simple definition of material activities and spiritual activities, one is that where it’s for Krsna and is where it’s for yourself?

Maharaja: Yes, that is the simplest, that is the main thing you are looking for. Then we see that the example is given here that Arjuna he was going to give up, and take up this philantrophic lifestyle and non-violence and all these different things. In that it has dual application. You are going to have Vedic or non-Vedic. Because the non-violence and philantrophic is the brahminical culture is non-violent and philantrophic. So that is what he was going to do. But you have the contemporary environment where they feel that by being non-violent and philantrophic that they have actually solved the problem. When the problem is actually illusion. You clear the illusion then you really get rid of the problem. So it can go both. 

So in that you will see that the knowledge and the activity become correct when they are connected to Krsna. Then within that you have the element that okay this knowledge or activity connecting it to Krsna then that is good. But now do I actually understand the working principle of it meaning the sastra-base of it or the authority? Because that is also what is being described here, the principle of authority. This knowledge and activity do I understand its connection with Krsna through the principle of authority? What is it about that it is important that makes it work? Otherwise kids sit out in the backyard and have all pots and they throw in leaves and push them around and all that. So if cooking meant putting something in a pot and pushing it around the kids are cooking. But the actual essence of the fire is missing. The appropriate application of the heat is missing. Cooking is actually when you apply heat to an object in a way that it gets you an edible result. Of course kids are able to eat the mood and other things like that. I don’t know how they do it. 

That is actually the most important, then if that is understood then whether it is Vedic or not Vedic what you are starting with it still gets you the same result: Krsna consciousness. That is the actual essence that one is looking for: It is that it is connected to Krsna and you are seeing the essence of the action and knowledge that actually does the connection. Then it doesn’t matter what field one is working in.That would be yukta-vairagya because yukta-varaigya also means you are connecting anyting material, so the Vedic or non-Vedic. It is not that yukta-vairagya means non-Vedic. That makes it workable. 

It is connected because of the naiskarmya. Because you actually understand what is the principle of authority that makes it work. If you don’t understand that then you are going to be limited by if it is a modern activity then you get some result from that but it is also going to carry the flavor of that modern concept. So it will have effect on your mind and consciousness. Therefore it will be philantrophic and non-violent as opposed to working on the authority of scripture and therefore you are working for others’ benefit without trying to injure others. There is a difference: One is an ism and one is dharma. The non-violence is my duty therefore I am non-violent, or I am non-violent become non-violence is good. Performing my duties is good and my duties as a brahmana is non-violence. The other is I isolate non-violence off from other qualities and choose that. But on its own how it the quality connected? How do you use it? 

I am cooking therefore I use some cumin seeds in the sabji, or I use some salt. So it is part of the duty if you want to cook right then you have to use some salt. But now if I take that salt as important and I separate it off and I make a whole philosophy about salt how do you use it, where does it apply? How do you know what is violent and non-violent? Like salt, I have a whole bag of salt but I have to use it, so how much sabji I have, what kind of sabji I have I put salt. I may have a pile of spinach this big but I have to put salt for this much spinach. But if I have a pile of potatos that big I have to put salt for that much volume of vegetable. Therefore it is only in the context that it actually has meaning. So non-violence doesn’t have any meaning until it is applied to a context. Otherwise how do you know what is violence and non-violence? 

You are saying something: Oh it doesn’t look so good. And then the comment could be, oh you are so mean. You are violent because your duty is to say Oh that is nice. Therefore the meaning of this non-violence and philantrophy in the Vedic authority has a whole meaning. So there is a form that is insuring that it is there but until you understand why it is there you don’t get the full benefit. You get the pious benefit because you have done it. But you won’t actually get the benefit of freeing yourself from the material energy because you don’t understand what’s going on there. Why would you be free? Means I do an activity and I get a result. I go into the kitchen, I cook and I get a result. But that means I have understanding of what I am doing that’s why I got a result. I don’t know any cooking, I don’t know what a kitchen is. I send somebody who doesn’t know anything about cooking or kitchens into the kitchen will we get some food out of it? No, because they don’t even know that is what it is for. They just go in and hang out and look at all the colored things and different shapes etc. So you don’t get anything out of it. So it is only when you really understand it you get the benefit.

What we are trying to define here is the difference between the performance of an activity whether it is in relationship to something contemporary or not that if you don’t understand the principle that makes it work because that principle that is what is the Vedic principle, you understand that then it works, you don’t understand that then technically it doesn’t work. You won’t get the benefit. It will still come out to be mundane. You have connected it to Krsna but your own consciousness will still remain mundane. You have done this service, you are purified by that but your needs and desires will still remain attached to that. Because you are dependent upon that form. While the Vedic is you may start with the form but the form is something that it is the natural form of the principle. But actually you are trying to get to the principle. Because the principle is that what makes it work. 

You isolate because you have to be able to understand what makes it work. I have an attachment. But what is the problem with the attachment. I am attached to my child, they come up, they are nice and they smile, they need you and all that. That is there but that is not a problem because we can be attached to Krsna and we are dependent upon Him and that rasa etc. So that aspect is not the problem. The problem is that you think that that attachment I have to the kid has to do with that earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence, false ego that is there. It is not. It has to do with the potencies that happened to be flowing through that at that moment. 

An example would be I think it was in Rome a few thousands years ago and they had running water. They had aqueducts and pipes that would go into every house. And then they have a pipe coming out of the wall and a cork in it. When you want water you take out the cork and then the water runs and when you don’t want it then you plug it. It is a very simple system. So somebody who wasn’t from Rome when they came and visited friends they saw this and were very intrigued by this tap. Then they removed the tap and took it home and then stuck it in their wall and were disappointed that water didn’t come out of it. 

You do the form, it is nice but unless it is in its real context it sometimes doesn’t always work because the form has to be connected to the principle. You understand the principle then your form will work. If you understand the principle then you can understand so many kinds of forms. There is an ideal form and there is less ideal form. 

You know how to cook something, you know a preparation, let’s say these richer vegetables with the …gravies. In doing that, potatos and cauliflower work very well. Technically you can use spinach, cabbage, squash, you can put anything into it. But they may not be the ideal for it but it will actually come out as a vegetable because the cooking process will have been used and it will be nice. But it may not be as nice as a vegetable that were suited to that. But you still understand the working science of it. 

That is the difficulty in yukta-vairagya if you use the contemporary: if you don’t understand this principle you become entangled by your own material desires. At the same time you are getting purified because you used it in Krsna consciousness. But that’s why if you can’t isolate it you won’t actually know what it is that is advancing and what it is that is causing your attachment. That’s why just to broadly say it is all just yukta-vairagya connected to Krsna. It is nice, it is good that this concept is there but until you understand the concept you are actually not necessarily doing yukta-vairagya. Or the benefit you are getting from that yukta-vairagya is so small compared to what you could be getting. If you understand the connection then you get more benefit. 

You are chanting namabhasa but if the name is being chanted offensively you get less benefit than if it is chanted without offence. It is still namabhasa. One will give you liberation, one will get you to the point where you give up making aparadha. Chanting offensively will bring you to the point where you stop chanting offensively.

Devotee (2): The essence of yukta-vairagya is that it is anukulyena krsnanu, that it is favorable, it pleases Krsna.

Maharaja: Yes, that is the main thing. It may be that the devotion is overwhelming, you are not attached to the item, so you just use whatever it is due to your simplicity or due to just whatever you know. 

Like someone knows Western cooking they don’t know anything else. They come in contact with the devotees, they learn whatever you eat offer to Krsna. With great devotion they use their cooking style for Krsna. Krsna will be very pleased, they will advance very nicely. 

But if they have a philosophy that why we should cook Indian. This is fine, it is yukta-vairagya, why be fanatic, they get less benefit. Because now it is not Krsna’s pleasure that they are looking for, it is their own issue that this is the way I like to live, and I am going to connect it to Krsna and everybody should leave me alone. 

It is a natural thing that I offer things to Krsna, then naturally as you go on then you go what does Krsna like to eat. If you don’t know somebody then you cook what you think is best. But as you get to know them then you start to find what they like to eat and then you cook for them. Oh this person is coming over let’s cook this preparation, or that person is coming. That way you know what to do, you plan your menus and everything accordingly. This one likes chilly so we put in chilly for them, these other ones don’t so we don’t put for them. This one needs more salt so we do that. This one likes more of this. This one doesn’t eat raw tomatoes so we won’t put that in. A good cook knowing everybody can cook the same preparation but everybody becomes satisfied because it was in consideration of them. But if you don’t know then you just cook what you feel is best which is natural. But if you start that you know what they like and then you say what is the big deal then you are saying to the others don’t be fanatic but actually we are telling Krsna why are you attached to these things, why can’t you just eat what I think is good. That is ok if you are mother Yasoda but if you are not mother Yasoda then that may not be a good idea. 

Devotee (2): When you say natural or ideal form you are talking about what pleases Krsna the most? 

Maharaja: Krsna has expanded His creation. Him and His creation connect through activity, abhidheya. Then what Krsna wants to gain from the activity that’s His pleasure. There is naturally a whole science, of why you would do this activity to get this kind of pleasure, or that activity to get that result and therefore that kind of pleasure. Therefore all those principles that are there that please Krsna have their original, natural forms that would be manifest in Vraja, or Dvaraka, or in Vaikuntha. Those are what the sastras explain. Because how would we know what food they eat in the spiritual world. How would we know unless somebody tells us? Therefore then they say. 

Otherwise why go to the detail. Why does Bhaktivinoda Thakura have to go to the detail: çuktā-çākādi bhāji nālitā kuñmāëòa. He could just say they cooked a whole lot of nice foodstuffs for Krsna. He could have just said that. Caitanya-caritamrta, why do they have to get down to preparation and even sometimes detail of the preparation, exactly so that you know what spicing and other things they use? Because then understand this is what God likes. 

Then in that context you apply the science of cooking in things that please Krsna. But the most important is of course the devotion. So if you have those ingredients and you know how to do that you do that, why wouldn’t you do that. Either know it don’t have the ingredients then you do whatever is next best, or tenth best but it is what is available. And if you don’t know these things then you cook whatever you know for Krsna with devotion. 

Devotee (2): When Krsna says patram puspam phalam toyam and He mentions bhakti twice that is real kind of beginning, liberal, because He is giving the essence…not really necessary for the form. If you all you have is patram puspam, a little leaf and flower. 

Maharaja: The devotion has a natural form. But the important element is the devotion that is what makes it work. 

Like you think of mum. You think of something that looks like mother Yasoda. If it is skinny in a mini-skirt and high-heels and a tank-top it doesn’t bring to mind ‘mum’. It would not be necessarily the first thought. That is the idea that is the natural form of it. But at the same time you get pretty much the idea that that which looks like something out of a magazine is pushing a pram down the street there is a good chance that she is a mum unless she just figured out that it got great wheels and you can stick all your groceries on there because you can’t take the shopping cart out of the thing and take it home but the pram you can bring it and take it. But generally you get the idea someone is there. The form may not be that kind of form but it works. But you have to understand it is that showing of affection for the other person through nourishment and support and somehow or another in any situation trying to relieve that for the other person. 

Devotee (2): …Prabhupada talks about suska and yukta-vairagya, dry and practical renunciation, he does say Krsna consciousness should be introduced according to time, country and candidate. But Prabhupada also wanted all the people from all the time, all the countries and all the candidates to come to Krsna’s place and learn the ideal, the natural form. It seems that it is an ongoing progression of learning and finding out what Krsna really likes because He mentions like in Govardhan all these preps…

Maharaja: It is like a child, when the child learns how to read they learn the letters. Then they can go ABCDEF… Is that reading? No. They know the numbers and times’ tables is that math yet? No, until it is applied. And even if they can sit there and read: (Slowly) Inspired by Srila Prabhupada’s… Is that reading? They say it is reading, but it is not reading. 

That is the whole idea there is the skill of it. That is why when you have knowledge, skill and values modern education basically deals with knowledge and the concept of the skill that is generally where it ends. They like to throw in values because they are just trying to make you value-based, everything is coming from kavi and these kinds of things. It is value-based, in other words you are a nice person when you use this knowledge and the skill. Value actually means that this knowledge that you are using is important in your life, it becomes part of your life, but that won’t be defined. That is what makes the difference between the Vedic and the modern education. Modern, when they say values it doesn’t mean their lifestyle it means that you are a nice guy, means philantrophy and non-violence, it has been isolated. 

Devotee (2): It is hovering in the middle plane and never change.

Maharaja: That’s why it is mental speculators, or arm-chair speculators. And we use those terms for academics because that is actually what is going on. But the devotee even though he is using this modern knowledge and modern situations then by his contemplation, by manana he is able to understand the connections and actually what is the working principle, the Vedic principle behind it, why does it work. Then he is able to use it there. 

One lecturer he comes into the room and there are 300 students there and he talks this and that and he just tries to say something that is entertaining that they won’t fall asleep and create a riot, and that is basically if he likes knowledge and teaching, it is something that he can do, it is a job for him, he’ll get money. But there is no bonding or development in the thing. A devotee can be in the same environment, can have the same job, in the same university but he understands the principle of knowledge and the teacher and the student and how to get the knowledge across to the student so that the student themselves actually wants to practice it and develops a value for it. Then they are getting the benefit of gurukula education even though they are in a modern university. 

That is the meaning of yukta-vairagya. Not that I just go in there and do whatever he wants… No, if you don’t know… how is it connected? You may have the whole machine but unless you plug it in it doesn’t work. It takes knowledge and endeavor to plug it in it is not just automatic. Automatic means it is just your habit. Your habit cultivated before Krsna consciousness. That means the knowledge wasn’t complete therefore the contemplation and practice weren’t complete, so the value wouldn’t be complete. So to just take that and connect it that is nice, but if you really want to get the benefit you have to review the knowledge itself and add into I am servant of Krsna and Krsna in His position. Therefore the application has to somehow or another connect to Krsna. Then it will develop that value properly. Therefore the time, place and circumstance aren’t a problem for the person in Vedic. It is actually a problem more for someone who is not following. 

Devotee (2):…short circuit. 

Maharaja: Yes, like that, but that’s why we also make comments about the smartas because they are following the form but they don’t actually know why they are doing it. Therefore Rupa Goswami uses the term niyamagraha. In other words the modern liberal… doesn’t understand it and throws it out because he thinks it is fanatic. And the fanatic who follows the form and wouldn’t know why he should be doing it. He says it must be done and the liberal says why and he can’t get an answer. So therefore one will throw it out and the other. Both are actually not that intelligent. But it will be seen that the liberal is intelligent and the other one is traditional or conservative. Both have good qualifications on the one side but on the other side they are both foolish. That’s why both of them are kicked out. So it is also fanatic to not follow the Vedic things because you are attached to the modern or because you can’t expain it and therefore it shouldn’t be followed. 

The point is if you don’t know why, it is something you should do but you don’t know why you should do it, you should find out. You can’t just say I don’t understand it therefore I shouldn’t do it. That is what kids say. I don’t understand why I should go in now, why I can’t play all day, why does mummy want me to go in now. Therefore they don’t want to do it. Just because you add another 20, 30, 40, 50 years onto that 8-years-old doesn’t make it any different except for of course the volume of false ego that is there and their political connections and how much they can get you for having dealt with them like their mummy did. 

Devotee (2): The modern devotee may come to reject the ideal if there is a short cicuit there. It’s a real challenge to learn the art of going right where those people are wherever it is, in the karma or jnana, and leading him progressively. That is not a small thing at all.

Maharaja: That is not a small thing at all because you are dealing with: you have doubts which are easier to deal with, then you have misgivings.

A doubt means you intellectually don’t understand it and therefore you are not supportive. Misgiving means even if you understand it you don’t want to do it. 

Devotee (2): It’s a heart thing

Maharaja: Yes, it’s in the heart, it’s in the emotions, in the mind. To be able to take people through this generally means to establish the sambandha of why this activity should be done means you are going to have to somehow or another create for them the understanding of their position, their identity can be connected… means where they are at, what you are suggesting is what is the non-difference between the two. In other words get to the principle of their identity rather than the detail. 

Devotee (2): Then they will be inspired to make that journey.

Maharaja: Yes then they will be inspired. But then they have to see the identity, then the trust can come, then the faith will come. Until that happens you have a very serious endeavor. Because depending upon how much association you can give, how often, then you may be dealing with years and years here, or lifetimes, it depends on the individual. But for Krsna it is worth it. He says to preach to the devotees is the most important. So it is very important but that is what it means to do that community preaching or they have some fancy terms for it to go out and… bridge. All that kind of a thing unless one understands that one can’t do it. And we see that even though it has been since ‘96, the centennial and all this, they have been talking about it a lot, it hasn’t happened in 13 years because the principle on which you are trying to convince them isn’t understood so basically all you are doing is either agreeing with their details or argueing with the detail. So that is not a bridge. Bridge means it goes from one side to the other. If you are standing on the same side as them then where is the bridge? If that is understood then you can make that bridge. Technically it is not difficult. The difficult thing is just the misgivings that come up form bad experience or misunderstandings or relationships not working properly. It ultimately comes back more to the culture but it is still with the proper knowledge applied properly with the culture then you can correct it. 

Devotee (3): When Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita the highest thing is to preach to the devotees is Krsna saying everyone is His devotee or is it actually the people that are on the devotional path?

Maharaja: It means the ones that are in the boat. Our service is getting people from the water into the boat. But once they are in the boat if we neglect them and they starve to death, or somebody is putting them on the boat and they are falling off the other side because there is not space then there is a problem. 

You have to look at it the sankirtana mission has three parts. They are the three parts why Lord Caitanya came: He came to taste the attraction to Krsna. What is gained by the experience of serving Krsna. What is the experience of love for Krsna. So the sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana, so you get Madana-mohana, Govinda and Gopinatha. 

The sankirtana as we define it generally is dealing with the Madana-mohana part. You are attracting others to Krsna. That is the within Madana-mohana you are dealing with the Sankarsana aspect of establishing Krsna is God and we are not, so you are establishing that relationship and you are sparking that attraction, or Pradyumna aspect to Krsna. But once that is done they take up the devotional but you still have to inspire that attraction because they are attracted this much now but there is more to go: Krsna is unlimited. So it is eternally being inspired. So that sankirtana mission is going on that is doing it so therefore you have your preaching, your festivals, these things they are inspiring and creating more and more attraction. That is Caitanya, that is the life, that is the force. 

Then you have Visvambara which means that you are cultivating and nourishing those that are in the process because they themselves have to be able to contemplate and take it deeper. And then in that they have to know the goal, you have Gaura. Because it is Govinda-Radha, means it is Radha and Krsna, worship of Radha and Krsna, that is what you are trying to get to. Then you see that is the complete mission. Because you have to have all those three. 

But generally what happens is the third one is nuked, the second one is why bother because the point is that you don’t need to know that to shake a can. Therefore it is just a matter of surrender and get out there and quit being mental. And that is as good as it gets basically in most places where I have seen. I am not exaggerating, that is as good as it gets. You know, the guy’s got to go home at 5 o’clock anyway to go home, got family and that, and he will be back tomorrow night. So that’s it. Then they wonder why there is more Deities than devotees in the temple. Because that is not what Lord Caitanya gave. It may be part of it but the point is take the complete package. Devotees are looking for the package. 

Devotee (3): The symptom of that is that the devotee aren’t sending their kids to gurukulas

Maharaja: That would be a symptom. Education in general is not… I mean devotees are here in Mayapura going to school here, going to the MIHE, going to Vidvan-Gauranga’s Sanskrit school, or going to Jananivas and Pankacanghri Prabhu’s academy, why are they here? The temples have inspired them to come, the GBC has pushed that education is there, regional secretaries, the residents, everybody is saying yes we must have this. Or is it individuals that just have packed their bags and come over here on their own? 

Devotee (3): Individuals…

Maharaja: That’s it, that’s what I am meaning. Education is only going on because individuals are valuing it. But as a mission education has basically to be positive zero interest. We do have negative numbers, negative 10, negative 100. Some place they really feel that it is not a good thing because the more you know the less you go out and pick. What is the saying: pick it to the bone and bring it home to daddy…

Devotees:

Maharaja: That’s the central point, don’t be mental.

I am not saying that is not good. The long building is here because of daddy there. That original generator is still here I think they have sold it now that is because of daddy. All these different things are there: the gurukula in Vrndavana, the building is there, the generator there that is the original. So many things are there because of that. But at the same time that is part of the whole picture. If one can’t think beyond that then that is where you push, but as one starts to deepen and mature then the Visvambara and Gaura have to be brought in. Someone is new, just body, mind and words and the only way it is going to be engaged if you get on their case and kick them out of the door that is what you have to do. But once they can study and read that should be part of it then. 

We are not talking about arm-chair speculators, that is also useless, or professional students that we don’t want either. The point is a brahmana means one who studies and one who teaches, they both go together. A brahmacari means he is practicing more the study, though he does teach to the others in the class, but what is prominent is the study. While the teacher will be prominently teaching but they still study. So whatever works for one’s situation that is there but it has to be included. 

Devotee (4): Somebody who has realized this knowledge he doesn’t need to be told. He jumps out of the door himself because he has to taste and he can integrate the study and the preaching. 

Maharaja: Yes. 

Devotee (4): It is not that one gives up the activities of preaching or sankirtana to go to higher callings. 

Maharaja: No. At the same time you do have the element of inspiring: If you do it yourself then that is good. But if by your inspiration you can get others to do that then if you can do that and also be doing the activity yourself then that is always ideal. But the idea is that time spent helping others come to that platform is also very important. That is why preaching to the devotees becomes important because you preach to devotees then they preach to others. Like Prabhupada didn’t want the GBC to do outside programs, he wanted them to cultivate and preach to the devotees. The temples have the devotees to preach to the outside. But who is going to preach to them, that is the idea. 

Devotee (4): But if you don’t spend a certain amount of time doing the activity perfecting yourself even if you are already perfected you are still doing it that you cannot lose the skill you have to stay in touch with it. 

Maharaja: Yes.

Devotee (4): Otherwise it becomes like those who can’t do they teach, those who can’t teach 

Maharaja: Teach the teachers.

Devotee (4): And those who can’t teach the teachers they write books or

Maharaja: I think they teach PE

Devotee (4): To actually go on doing the activity in the realm of satisfying Krsna…

Maharaja: It is there. At the same time it depends upon what it is. If it is book distribution then it is better when one is able to go out and do that oneself because one is in touch otherwise sometimes one will forget actually what it means to be out on the street. If it is teaching to the devotees then it doesn’t matter where one’s situation is. One always has to be teaching one can’t just study and then figure that he knows how to teach. One will be out of touch. 

That is the problem with the… also a difference in the Vedic and modern academy. In the modern you have a teacher and then generally they take the best teacher and make him the principal of the school then he just becomes an admistrator and is actually not in touch with teaching anymore. Then it goes for some time nicely but eventually they have to make a new principal because it is not alive anymore. While in the Vedic the person who is the head of the school still has to teach. So the teaching is always going on that is why in the Vedic administration is reduced as much as possible or if you do have to have administrators, administrators are secondary to the teachers. But you don’t get that so much in the west. 

Devotee (4): On the bridge example if you try to share with another devotee who may not necessarily have that realization I have seen that many times they are not looking so much for the philosophy or if we ourselves don’t have that taste that deep-rooted attachment to Krsna and there is still some tinges of material desire or some same contaminations then we are still both standing on the same side of the bridge and it doesn’t become very inspiring to that person to take up that faith again

Maharaja: That is there but still it is not even, I personally would say it is too much emphasis is put on the that they would have that material inclination because until you come to bhava there is going to be something there, whether it is more personal or more generic. It is more of what you mentioned there it is the realization and the taste. Means if you don’t have any realization or taste then you wouldn’t be here. So whatever it is if you are in touch with your realization and taste through contemplation and practice you can give that to others. 

That is what the new bhakta who is only been there for so many days or weeks is able to go out and give that to the karmis and make them devotees and he is rife with material desire. But because his consciousness is not on the desire it is on the service of Krsna then the desires are just something that he has to work on, it is part of his sadhana. But it is not something technically that stops his advancement. If his consciousness switches to those desires and they take prominence then you have a problem. 

That is the difference technically between the grhastha and the grhamedi. The grhamedi means the house is the more prominent, while the grhastha means Krsna is the more prominent. They may do exactly the same activities. They have the same facilities, it doesn’t matter. That is what makes the difference: who is the center. Is Krsna the center then it is grhastha. The house is the center then it is grhamedi. That’s all. Krsna may be there in one of the circles going around the… that is nice and He may even be the first one but it is just a change. 

If one switches that, in other words, that inspiration and that, but at the same time one is dealing with the desires. Someone will say all these desires they are there it is bogus you can’t do anything until you have cleared those. That’s why so many aspects of the Gaudiyas they don’t preach. At the same time they just say you just preach and ignore that that also isn’t beneficial. It may be beneficial in the beginning for the new person because they don’t know how to contemplate it, by contemplating it they become entangled. So they should just work. As it develops naturally by performing work without attachment jnana comes and when that comes then they are able to deal with that. They actually contemplate it, isolate their material desires and be able to deal with them progressively. 

So you want to be able to balance that according to the individual. Depending on who it is you would give more one way or another way. Some person you are encouraging they do whatever they do, they are living whatever lifestyle they are living, however they can add Krsna to it you are encouraging and all the other things you are ignoring. Someone else may say these things are going in the way of your dealing with Krsna. So it depends upon the person’s situation, their maturity, their advancement, then their preaching will go on. 

Then even though you don’t have so much still anything, a drop of reality is still reality compared to an ocean of illusion, so it is still valuable. That’s why the mission is so perfect because anyone can preach. You don’t have to be that advanced to preach. The point is it is that commitment to expressing what you feel and understand to others. That is what makes it dynamic. 

Devotee (4): So when you are mentioning that GBCs shouldn’t technically do the outside programs but preach to the devotees. Sometimes I just examine myself I am not looking for jnana or for stories which I have heard so many times I am only looking for bhava but if that person cannot give me bhava then what am I doing here? Then I’d rather talk to the sweeper or to the cook or to the person who can give me that bhava who has that juice, but is that a wrong attitude? Is that just natural? 

Maharaja: It is not wrong, it is natural. But at the same time we do have the technicalities of just the particular aspects of the sadhu-sanga and stuff like that, so we follow the etiquette. But the point is if one is aware of that then one should look for it because it is available. If you want it it is there. If you don’t know it is there even if it is you won’t notice or take advantage but it is always available. Even reading the books will give you, because there you are in touch with the person who it is about, so when you are reading Gita then you are hearing directly from Krsna and Arjuna though it is coming through the transparent via-media of the parampara but you are directly hearing from them. 

Like you are talking on a phone you are directly hearing from the person but it is coming through the whole phone and all the different computers. In the same way you read Nectar of Devotion you are hearing from Rupa Goswami. You are reading Bhagavatam you are hearing from Sukadeva and Suta Goswami, you are hearing directly. That is why it is important to study because that is then a very great inspiration and then discussing that and sharing that with devotees you find who you can share what with. Some devotees will discuss one thing very nicely, and another one will discuss another thing very nicely. So whatever that is there in your needs you find those avenues by which to express it and find it. (end of lecture)

Devotee (3): I would be harder to start a gurukula in America now than before?

Maharaja: They will be too worried, you got those that have a philosophy doubt, and you got those that have a cultural doubt about it. They don’t want to get into administration because something might go wrong and it it too expensive. Now they learned don’t keep brahmacarinis in the temple when their parents are after them, that was that court case and don’t run gurukulas. 

Devotee (3): Now all the kids they are becoming drug addicts and sex-mongers

Maharaja: Many parents will think like this: I did like that and I became a devotee so therefore my kid could do that and be a devotee. But the point is why would you want them to waste their time, it is like I was born in the slums, I moved up and I became a billionaire, and now my son he can start in the slums and move up like me. No, it should be that your son is born rich, but then he has to learn how to value that richness and using it. The kids that are born in the movement they were devotees before. We are just taking it up but those who are born in the families of practicing devotees they were devotees before, practicing they were serious, but they didn’t make it for whatever reason. Therefore now it is to teach them what is that value so then in an earlier age they take it up and when they do leave their body they are already prepared and go back to Godhead. That is the idea but many don’t know. So the problem comes down that one would doubt to even know how to save themselves because you give your best to your kid. Because you notice that their kid is into smoking dope or going out with the girls and they are resigned to it because they smoked dope and ran out with the girls. Now if the kid comes home shooting heroine you can bet all hell will break loose in that liberal Alachua family because it is something that they didn’t do. I did it and I became a devotee that is alright, but now if it is a family where they were shooting , the kid gets into it they feel really bad that this is really bad, and you are really in a bad place but they will be able to adjust with it. As bad as you were is basically how bad. So where the arguments come between the parents and the kid is when the kid is more bad than they were but it is the same bad. 

Devotee (6): How does one in a situation distinguish between a principle and a detail?

Maharaja: The simple definition is the principle always works. The detail is what you make it work through. If you have different contradictory things which you know are all correct then you look at what is the common thing between them. Then you look at that because the detail may be different. Like you have the home body ma and the professional ma. They look very different but what is the common element. The common element is that care for the benefit of that child and trying to do the best what they feel is important. The one thinks staying at home and being with the child is important and the other one they hire the best day care there is in the city for their kid and they think they are doing their parental work. So that is the principle. If you catch that then you can get it either. 

Devotee (6): What case is the ability to see that communality?

Devotee (2): It takes a little intelligence. 

Maharaja: Yes, it takes a little intelligence…

Devotee (6): How do we develop that intelligence?

Maharaja: Association. It is said that three things develop finer brain tissue: Chanting Hare Krsna which is the most important, milk – cow’s milk, not buffalo milk – and an asthetic environment. That’s why your temples, house, everything in the Vedic culture is asthetic. Even if they have a sword it is asthetic because all of these develop the finer understanding. 

Devotee (6): Doesn’t one also need knowledge?

Maharaja: You need knowledge but even if you have it you have people who have studied for 20, 25 years and they still don’t know anything. They are very expert at the life cycle of the cici fly but they wouldn’t actually know what life is. Knowledge is there that is why we have our books, that’s why we have our Bhagavatam class, our Gita class that knowledge is gained. 

Devotee (6): Regarding one needs to intelligence to apply it. 

Maharaja: It’s like this let’s say a man has no muscles, of course he has some muscles but we wouldn’t call him buff, he is not going to win any awards. How does he get muscles? 

Devotee (6): Work.

Maharaja: By using the muscles. The same thing is you get that knowledge and you contemplate the knowledge that develops your brain, your intelligence. So you hear the knowledge, then you contemplate it, then contemplating it you practice it, practicing it then you value it and then when you value it you teach it to others. So you have sravanam kirtanam and it has just those stages in between. 

Devotee (6): Knowledge, contemplation, value and then?

Maharaja: No. Knowledge, contemplation and practice, then value. Contemplation and practice go together. That is the problem: you have the practical person who doesn’t worry about knowledge and then you have the intellectual who only worries about knowledge. But the Vedic principle is that the two are combined. 

So you use your intelligence practically that will develop your power of intelligence. Because you hear something then by doing it you get more. Because intelligence means what, what is intelligence?

Devotee (6): The ability to discriminate.

Maharaja: Yes, discriminate, so discriminate what is the common and what is the difference. 

Like you don’t know so much about cooking, oh how do you cook that, I can tell you, you have the knowledge, you have the same knowledge that I have. But if you leave it like that then you think you are very knowledgeable which one way you are, but in another way you are not because if you go into the kitchen and you try to use the recipe you may find you fail miserably because you don’t know what it means to make a jaunce, put in the water and boil it, make the sauce and put the salt. You don’t know those things so having done that then you are going to next time pay attention more to what is that jaunce, how much salt, how much water, how hot was it, how long was it boiled, was the lid on or not? And then one gets that done that is still generic. But then applying that onto a potato is different than applying it onto a cauliflower. You can boil a cauliflower all day and it doesn’t fall apart much, but a potato falls apart. Therefore you use more water with potatoes and more with cauliflower. The more you go the more you can discriminate. If you can put fried eggplant into spinach that means you could put spinach into eggplant. You understand? You don’t understand.

Devotee (2): This seems like the essence of what Abhisek is saying is that how do you get intelligence? It is really about desire. And Krsna He is the source of intelligence: dadami buddhi. So ultimately it is our willingness, it’s our attitude.

Maharaja: Everything is attitude. You want bhakti. The only qualification we are getting bhakti is wanting it. Even anything else, you want a car, what gets you that car? Because you want it. Wanting it that means you make the endeavor. And by making the endeavor then you are able to applying your intelligence. I made the endeavor this way I got some benefit, I made the endeavor that way I didn’t. So you discriminate this was good and this was bad. Then I did this and I did that, that was also good. Now I put these two together and I separate those others off. 

Devotee (7): How should we respond to when we want to follow what Prabhupada specifically said and devotees say that is fanatic?

Maharaja: You could say that is fanatic to say that it is fanatic. Because they will always take that fanatic means you dogmatically stick to that. But they will dogmatically stick to not following it. So dogmatism is dogmatism. It is the same thing. It just looks different. What’s the difference? But because it has a slightly different flavor therefore they will say it is different. It is a yellow light instead of a blue light therefore it is different, no it is light, its working principle is light, not the yellow or blue. But they can’t see that. In it you want to follow it then you by contemplating get down to the essence because the essence everybody has to agree to. Because they will be following what they think is that by a different detail.

Like you want to cook Vedic cooking. So they will say don’t be fanatic, but what’s wrong with it. Means you are cooking, why do you cook because you need to eat and what you eat should be something that you like otherwise the body doesn’t dissimilate (?) it. Cows love grass but if you eat the grass it won’t work. That means it has to be something suitable. Therefore the essential thing is that it should be something that is nourishing. So you are saying that the Indian diet is not nourishing. It doesn’t have a good taste? Because that is what cooking is for. So you may prefer this and I may prefer that but what you just said for you to say that would be improper. 

Devotee (7): What is if they are questioning the validity of something?

Maharaja: That is called lack of faith. Because when Prabhupada said it you can’t doubt it. You cannot understand it, you can contemplate until you do or ask questions until you do, but to say it is not true that is just faithlessness. Of course you can’t say that because they have been around 10, 20, 30 years so they feel that they are very advanced, on one level they may be but in this area they are basically zero. What is keeping their devotion going is their faith in other areas. But it is dangerous to maintain faithlessness because if it grows it may overbalance the faithlessness. 

Devotee (7): Sometimes it is based on emotion.

Maharaja: That is why it is called a misgiving. If it is simply intellectual, if they are just asking an intellectual questions then it is a doubt. But if there is all this emotion involved then it is a misgiving. That is how you tell the difference. Therefore if it is just a doubt deal with it intellectually according to the person and the situation.  Is it a misgiving then deal with it as an emotion, don’t deal with it logically. Go into it as emotion. 

The point is you are sending your kid to the gurukula. Why would you do that? Then the point is the parent is supposed to give the best to their kids. Therefore if someone understands what is human life etc. that is what is best for him. The modern will get them a job that is nice they need money but it is not going to teach them to be a person. Therefore the Vedic system will teach them that. You are getting underneath, you are dealing with the emotion of I as a person, I want to give the best, I follow this and I want to give this to my children, it works for me. So then at best, even if they don’t accept it, they say ok that works for you, I don’t accept I wouldn’t send my kid. But at least they will leave you alone. Otherwise you have to just emotionally keep going underneath and find something that resonates with them. Because the point is why this and that so that is why in the Vedic system you choose teachers, you choose not by some committee. You go around and see what is there then you put your kid there. 

Devotee (7): That was the exact thing I was thinking of and they are like I can’t believe it you could send your 5 year old boy how you could you do that?

Maharaja: He says, well it is like this: gurukula – slaughterhouse. 

Devotee (2): It is a new slaughterhouse though it’s so shiny, it’s flowery

Maharaja: Good slaughterhouses are generally all stainless steel. And of course then there is…
It is just find underneath, in other words, means there is a rule, you are sending your kid, Prabhupada said it, it is the Vedic culture this and that, but actually why are you sending? Why are you committing to follow that rule because that rule is a recommendation. So why are you following it? That is what you then have to contemplate and bring out and expand and give that to the other people because that is why you do it. So if you can give that to them then they will think that you get the same result. (end)

January 23, 2009

Maharaja: Inspired by Śrīla Prabhupāda’s Bhagavad-gītā As It Is and following Arjuna’s exemplary surrender thousands of Westerners opposed their materialistic relatives and decided to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Thus Bhagavad-gītā As It Is produced the same result as it produced five thousands years ago – the illusion was destroyed and the pure devotional service, in terms of understanding, practical application, and ultimate goal, was firmly established. 

In Bhagavad-gītā we find not only the example of the perfect Vedic authority, the Supreme Lord Himself, but the example of the perfect disciple as well. Arjuna’s mood and surrender is the actual standard of submissive hearing. Anyone who wants to understand and apply the Vedic knowledge must follow in his footsteps.

So this mood is very important because authority is there. We accept is or we don’t accept it the validity is unchanged. The difficulty comes if we want to get benefit from it then we have to have the right attitude. So even we see in the introduction to the Bhagavad-gita Prabhupada is saying if you want to understand Bhagavad-gita at least you have to in theory accept that Krsna is God. Just look at it from this perspective then it makes a whole lot more sense. You don’t look at it from that then it won’t work. This element of Arjuna in his ability to submissively inquire because we see in the conversation Arjuna has plenty of doubts and he even has a misgiving of his dealing with the family members fighting with them and that, a much more emotional issue, that is how the whole thing came up. 

But the element of being able to express the doubt in a progressive way to get an answer so that one can properly develop that then is how Arjuna shows a very good example. That is the way that one learns. The idea that you express yourself, say anything you like and that is your right, it is your right if you want to not understand something but at the same time is it your right to annoy others? So if you have a sign, you have gotten a piece of paper the supreme annoyer of the universe then go ahead and perform your duties, but if you haven’t then there might be some restrictions. Therefore the living entity if he wants to understand anything he must approach authority and be submissive. That doesn’t mean he can’t inquire about anything or ask a question, it just has to be done in a way that is actually progressive, that you want to learn. Doubts aren’t the problem. It is the lack of proper attitude that is the problem.

Lord Kṛṣṇa’s supremacy is established throughout the Vedic literatures. Those who disregard Him are unable to render any valuable service to the human society:

Śrī Éçopaniñad advises us to pour water on the root, the source of all germination. Worship of the mass of humanity by rendering bodily service, which can never be perfect, is less important than service to the soul. The soul is the root that generates different types of bodies according to the law of karma. To serve human beings by medical aid, social help and educational facilities while at the same time cutting the throats of poor animals in slaughterhouses is no service at all to the soul, the living being.

The simple method of worship of the Supreme Lord in this age of disturbance is to chant His Holy Name and to hear the descriptions of His transcendental activities. Sincere hearing and chanting will attract the Lord’s mercy upon the devotee.

The whole thesis of the Isopanisad is the isavasya principle. Now as we see again He being the Lord that means that any benefit that you can give to any living entity still must be given through the principle of approaching Krsna first. The element of Krsna in that relationship, that being watered, that actually makes the relationship work. In other words, you want to feed so many people, nice, but unless it is prasada what benefit are you giving the soul? You feed the body but unless it is connected to Krsna the living entity himself who is the source of that body gets no benefit. It would be like a person is in jail and you fix his car. Nice, but he can never take advantage of using that car. What benefit did you do for the person? Nothing really. If it is not connected to Krsna the actual person you are supposed to benefit doesn’t get any benefit. 

That’s why the preaching is important because it is connected to Krsna. Preaching itself is not what the important element is because you can preach about so many things. The greenies are out there with their little boats and flags being run over by big industrial ships, they are preaching, politicians are preaching, but that is not the benefit. Real preaching means preaching about God. Then you can introduce all these other elements. Why is the environment important? Because it is God’s environment. Otherwise just to be environmentally conscious nice, but we could also be rock-conscious, there is a rock here and we could be conscious of this rock. Kind of a whitish rock with various lines in it. But its only importance is if it is connected to Krsna. Otherwise it is no more absurd one rock than a forest. We are talking about the rock, that is not exactly let’s get real. But the point is in the universe how big is a forest? It is also quite small. The whole idea is if it is connected to Krsna then all these things have importance. Education has importance, social help has importance, medical aid has importance. That is why Ayurveda is so special because it is connected to Krsna. Or you taking care of the body for health so you can do service for Krsna. So you connect everything to Him then everything becomes useful. Therefore basically speaking if you are worshiping the Supreme Lord then everything is taken care of because anything else that you will do then you will see in relationship with the Lord. 

Devotee (1): Mantra 10 and 13 the hearing is emphasized as the method for approaching and to receive the knowledge. Hearing is related to the next stages: manana and nidhidhyasana. But there are also 3 kinds of intelligence: the first-class intelligent they are learning things just because of the hearing. How is related? To their past life? First-class intelligence: you hear and realize. Second-class intelligence means that you hear and see and then you realize. Third-class intelligence is you hear, you see and you practice and only then you realize. How is the first-class intelligence related to the manana-principle?

Maharaja: No, you are going to use all three aspects. But the point is it is based on authority. That is the important element, the sabda, the authority. Because just by hearing you can contemplate, because you can contemplate how that would apply. Therefore you can bring it down to. 

It is just like this: How many dogs do you have to hear bark to understand dogs bark? One. That means even after ten years if you see a dog you can basically understand it barks. The point is experience has always been there. But now connecting that experience to sabda that is actually what one is trying to do. So if one does that one learns. One is building on experience you have. Because you are always doing something, the experience is always there. But the idea is that the experience is there, you contemplate that and you learn from that. But that means now you know before the next time it happens. Does that makes sense?

Devotee (1): Not exactly.

Maharaja: What doesn’t make sense? 

Devotee (1): Because if you hear and then realize, when you have manana.

Maharaja: You hear it, you contemplate it and you understand it. 

Devotee (1): Simply by reasoning 

Maharaja: Yes.

Devotee (1): Without any practical application?

Maharaja: No, the practical application… what you can understand through the contemplation can be confirmed through hearing, like you see in the Bhagavatam devotees are doing different things, that confirms what it is; you can see it, you yourself when you do it experience it, but you have already understood it before you experienced it. That just confirms it. That would give you realization. I am making this distinction between jnana and vijnana. We are talking here about the jnana. Jnana you can get through hearing, through seeing others or through practice. Here you are mixing the two different elements because they have some similar vocabulary. But here third class intelligence means you have heard it you don’t believe it, you see others getting into that, having that let’s say it’s a problem, having that problem you still don’t understand it, only when you have the problem then you understand, oh here is a problem. That is third class intelligence. 

But you are always practicing. That you practice doesn’t mean that this is third class intelligence. But the point is you contemplate and you understand, then you go into the activity with knowledge. The third class intelligence means you are going into the activity without knowledge. And it is only then through that activity then you understand, oh I should use this knowledge in this activity. That’s why then the study, you contemplate it and you apply it. Because the idea is that sabda should always be brought to the stage of pratyaksa. Sabda, you have heard it from authority but now if you can see it in your practical day to day life that means you actually understand the knowledge. You don’t start from pratyaksa and then try to work it out back from there. You start with authority and then by contemplation you see how that authority applies in one’s day to day life. So then one sees. One is a progressive process, the other is just the living entity is a bit stub-born.

Devotee (1): Yesterday you mentioned about the difference between modern education and Vedic education. Modern education doesn’t go beyond the stage of hearing. 

Maharaja: They do sometimes some so-called manana. It is popular I think in 7th grade and in the first year of university. They like to do these things. 

Devotee (1): Manana can only happen when you have a need for the knowledge…

Maharaja: But why are you studying the knowledge if you don’t have a need for the knowledge? 

Devotee (1): You may have interest

Maharaja: Ok. But if you are not going to use it why would you practice it? That means you would only have some knowledge in the area. So it is okay, but if you are going to become expert at it then you have to be able to apply it. 

Devotee (1): In the devotional society they also use this modern method. The devotees they hear some seminars and study some seminars only because it’s interesting, not because they are going to apply it. How to upgrade them to the level of need?

Maharaja: They are going to the class because it is interesting. But some may be going because they want to use it. Like you have a teacher’s training course they might go because they actually want to be a teacher. Or a leadership course because they actually like to do some management. You do have that. But the point is it is in the teaching process. The teacher takes the student through these levels. 

Devotee (1): What is the Vedic method to upgrade the person from interest to need for them he will value this knowledge and have a need to…

Maharaja: Basically it is by association. It is just by explaining. That’s why gurukula meant living with the teacher. Because then all through the day you would see how that knowledge will be applied all the time. That is why it is recommended one learns under somebody that way. 

Devotee (1): The person should get some practical experience how it is applied

Maharaja: That is ideal. The point is for the kids they go to the school and they are in the school and then throughout the day whatever they are doing these principles can be cultivated and applied. Whether they understand it or not there is someone there that notices if they are not and he will explain it. And you get the example of how the others are dealing with it. Those who have more of a training and how they behave and how they deal. 

But in the element of the adult education you can only make them aware that it exists and then they have to do it themselves. That is the advantage of being born into the Vedic culture because then one is able to from the very beginning take advantage of that whole training process. 

Devotee (1): In Moscow we have this brahmacari asrama and they have these big, big educational programs

Maharaja: Yes, but it is an asrama. So therefore throughout the day you can see how they behave. 

Devotee (1): But nobody pays attention to this

Maharaja: That is another thing. But I am saying the opportunity is there, it can be done. It is just that people have to do it. 

Devotee (1): So it is up to the individual.

Maharaja: It is up to the individual but it is up to the teacher 

Devotee (1): How does the teacher use this point. 

Maharaja: Because he is living there with the student. 

Devotee (1): But if he himself

Maharaja: But then what if I get into the airplane and the pilot doesn’t know how to drive? No, you get a pilot that does know how to drive. No, but what if if he doesn’t know how to drive? No, but the guy that is supposed to be driving the airplane should know how to drive? No, but let’s just say on the odd chance that somehow or another he didn’t know how to drive. What is use of that kind of position? 

Because you are asking how to do it and we said you have teachers and they do it because they live with the students. That’s it, that is the formula. So the point is that if you have something to do with the school then you do that or find people who will do that. 

Otherwise, what ifs we can go on all day. What if the Marsians attack just at prasada time and they come and steal all the puffed rice then what would we do? Those kinds of what ifs one can do that all day, it is very exciting, like you said interesting: A lot of times people keep themselves very busy with that. Friends sit around and discuss what if we are driving on the road and a UFO in the middle of the road what would you do? I go up to him and say welcome to earth. No, that is stupid what if they zap you with their laser gun. I pull out my mirror and reflect it. What if we miss? You can go on all day like that. 

Devotee (1): It is interesting. 

Maharaja: It is interesting but what you have to look at is interesting is the beginning stage, then you have to apply it. The difficulty is that the interesting is intellectual. The mind likes the intellectual but then if you have a community then to apply it in application and relationship they are overly emotionally sensitive, their field of interest is intellectual, but if you try to benefit them with it then they switch into overly sensitive emotional then you have a big problem. 

If you are going to be intellectual then the emotions and all that must be more controlled by the intelligence. If you are dealing with rasa then you are dealing with the emotions. If you can separate those two that works better. That is why the brahmacari asrama they are not in family life and all that so they don’t have to worry about that great depth of rasa that is there in the asrama. As a brahmacari they just need to work everything on intelligence and develop some etiquette. So there aren’t any encumbrances that way. That is why the Vedic is arranged like that. 

We mentioned also before as we said that because the concept of VTE was that devotees most adults have been through 16 to 20 years of modern education that they would be very accustomed to that and immediately relate to it. The idea was what is the most efficient way to get the points across to the first generation. Therefore the VTE developed something that was in the concept of modern education, the form of it but it had spiritual content. They are used to the classes, the lectures, the homework, the presentations, the interactions, the workshops because that is what they do in the modern educational sphere so they will be very comfortable doing that. That was the idea, then they can come in and the course is 6 weeks or 3 months, you can come in and immediately relate to the educational process and it works. 

While the Vedic is a very different kind of approach because the main point you are trying to get across is not specifically the knowledge but the understanding and application of it because that is the working principle. Sometimes that takes people long time. We have heard people come here and then they come this year and sit in the class and it makes no sense to them at all and then it has soaked in a little bit and when they come next year it starts to make sense. That’s why this Bhaktisastri course runs three years, so that the concept of how we think and all that from the Vedic perspective can soak in. The whole thing could be taught in 3 months or 6 months but you wouldn’t gain that perspective. So it is geared like that because for the second generation then they have the time. Because it is there then adults that want to take advantage of that kind of education then it is available to the adults. Therefore that college is there so that adults can come and take the same education that the kids get but without the asrama training and everything like that. So that is why they are there. 

Devotee (1): You mentioned understanding comes by application. The difficulty is we don’t understand the need to apply it. 

Maharaja: That is contemplation. Sambandha then is the foundation for prayojana and abhidheya. You hear the knowledge then by contemplating then you see its value, its purpose. In the sambandha you have to know what is the field, what are the elements of the field, what is the purpose of each element in the field, what are the relationships between these elements, what results can you get? So if you study that field completely then you want those results and you know how to get it, then when there is interest then you move forward. That is the process to make the field very clearly aware. That’s why we go into so much detail on the field because if that is understood then one can appreciate its application and its results. 

All knowledge is sambandha-jnana, even knowledge about abhidheya and prayojana. Abhidheya is the practice of that knowledge, prayojana is the result you get from that knowledge but it can all be explained in sambandha-jnana. Because sambandha is the big circle, within that is abhidheya and prayojana. It is not separate things. We do that to see the progressions but it is actually sambandha. 

We find in the… I remember in the Siksastaka Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains this that actually relationship is the basis of everything. In the spiritual world your sthayi-bhava, your relationship is the basis of all the other aspects of rasa. Because if there is no sthayi-bhava then how you would have vibhava with something you are attracted to in Krsna? What would you be attracted to? Mother Yasoda is being attracted to His being her son, so anything in relationship to that sonness that is what she is interested in. But it is based on the sthayi-bhava. And from that there is going to be therefore from the vibhava there is going to be an activity you do to express that affection, that ecstacy that comes from that activity, the experience that is your anubhava. That will manifest also with emotional and physical symptoms, your sattvika bhavas and your sanjari-bhavas. But it is all based on sthayi-bhava. So until the relationship is established how does the rest of it work? 

Like you meet somebody you don’t know them what do you talk about? They say I am from London then you talk about one thing. They say they are from Kartoom then you talk about something else. If they are from London then they annoying thing is the M25, it’s Kartoom it is all the sand. You ask questions to get to know the person so that you know what kind of relationship you can have with them. So the knowledge is the foundation. If the sambandha-jnana is understood properly then there will be the inspiration, or Pradyumna, and the desire for the result, Aniruddha. Then once that is there then you perform the activity.

Mantra 14

This Mantra conveys a similar massage to Mantra 11. In Mantra 11 it is said that one should learn side by side the processes of nescience and real knowledge. Here in Mantra 14 it is confirmed that the seeker must know perfectly the Transcendental Lord as well as His temporary material creation.

So it is taking it a step further. It is that knowledge and ignorance…so we have defined the position of authority: in the sabda you have authority in the way of what is transcendental that would be considered knowledge, and avidya will mean that which is not connected to the Lord. Apara-vidya will mean material knowledge that is connected to para-vidya, or transcendence. That same body of knowledge not connected to the Lord is avidya. 

In your jnana-sastras they will make these three distinctions: Para-vidya, transcendental knowledge; apara-vidya, material knowledge that is in support of and connected to transcendental knowledge; and avidya, that which is not connected. On the platform of jnana, the jnana-sastras, it is simply divided para-vidya and avidya. Even the material knowledge even though it is connected it is still considered avidya because the jnani doesn’t involve himself in any kind of material activity. They don’t engage in karma. The difficulty is it is hard to purify himself. So unless they are already pure, they are born like the 4 Kumaras or Sukadeva Goswami - that is also something to remember about Brahmavadis, these guys were born Brahmavadis, they didn’t become Brahmavadis - so you need to have a process to purify yourself. 

So therefore generally what we always use is then these three divisions: so the para-vidya, apara-vidya and avidya. So avidya simply means that it is not connected to the Lord. That’s all. That is simply what it is. Para-vidya means that it is directly about the Lord. Apara-vidya will be in support of or secondary knowledge. So you have your primary and secondary knowledge that is in connection with the Lord. Then you have what is not connected to the Lord. In this case the avidya can even be philosophical knowledge that is not connected to the Lord, so it is not restricted that it has to be simply something like Ayurveda etc. 

Here you have separated it now it is a matter of the Lord and his creation. Because the avidya comes in connection with the creation. There is no avidya in the spiritual world. Then the Lord and His creation if you see them together then you are dealing with para- and apara-vidya. So it is not considered ignorance. But if you don’t see the material energy in connection with the Lord then it will be ignorance. 

But now you are getting into dynamic, more into practice. You have to be able to practice it. So the first is you have gotten the knowledge. So the sravana you have heard what is knowledge and what is ignorance. Now you are seeing that in relationship to the Lord. That the Lord Himself He is transcendence and His material creation seen in light with Him also gives you transcendence. So you are getting down to a practical application here. 

Because we are on the 14th verse and it is 18 verses. That means you would have to have taken someone through the full process of sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana and all aspects of it within 18 verses. Because an Upanisad should be complete. So now we are getting down to practical application, so if you can see the Lord in connection with something that is actually what we are trying to do. It is not just a matter, we know this and we know that. It is a matter of we know this is Krsna and we know that what is in connection with Krsna. Actually it is the other way round: This, that – that is an Upanisadic principle. This is here, and that is there, the transcendental realm. 

The same is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā 7.2 where Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa says:

I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge, both phenomenal and numinous. This being known, nothing further shall remain for you to know.

In other words, what is here and what is there. But this is Seventh Chapter so we see it is now explained in connection with the Absolute. Before this it was activity, you have the Sankhya process, you have the process of karma, you have the process of jnana, you have the combination of karma and jnana as buddhi-yoga, you have the process of dhyana-yoga. So having dealt with all the processes then who is that supposed to be applied to? So that is the Supreme Lord. So now you are starting to deal with the Supreme Lord and the knowledge of Him and all His manifestations. That is what you will be dealing here. You see the difference between? It is the same topic but it is just being further developed here in the 14th verse as opposed to the 11th

The so called knowledge which aims at exploiting the material energy independently from the Lord is but another form of nescience. The very idea that the nature is designed to be controlled and enjoyed by mankind shows that the modern scientists and religionists are unaware of nature’s real purpose which is to be engaged in the Lord’s service.

The modern religionist: God is walking with Adam and Eve in the garden, so it is considered that that is the natural residence of the Lord and the living entities. They are happy and everything but nothing is said about that things are there for Adam and Eve’s enjoyment. But everybody understands they are happy. Then when they are kicked out of the garden then what is there is given for their enjoyment. So then the religionist, because religion would be that you do a pious activity and you get a good result which is something that you could then enjoy, from dharma you get artha and kama. Then they will figure this is our right to enjoy it, yes God gave us to enjoy but what they understand is that is for the guys that were kicked out. The ones that were kicked out that is what is given to them to enjoy it because that is what they want. They want to enjoy separately from the Lord, they want to act in a way that is not connected to the Lord. That means they are unaware of nature’s real purpose. No, it is supposed to be engaged in the Lord’s service. But this is what they then want to do so this is what they have been given for. Because you can’t separately try to enjoy in the transcendental realm, you have to do that somewhere else. So material world is that somewhere else.

This so-called knowledge is actually avidyā or nescience because it views the material world as a place of permanent enjoyment. Actually the material world is “duùkhālayam açāçvatam” or place of misery where everything is temporary. To have such an understanding is a sign of knowledge and any other opinion on the matter is nothing but ignorance as it is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā 13.8-12. 

So here we are also establishing that everyone has their opinion. Then you have God’s opinion. This idea that there are so many options. Yes, there are so many options, but that is based on not being God’s opinion. But if we want to know the Absolute there is only one opinion and that is God’s opinion. But God’s opinion because He is the creation so everything is so great that it can apply to every aspect of His creation. But one has to accept that one has to look for the variety and the practical application within God’s opinion not within our opinion. It may look the same but that’s why one has to be able to tell the difference. 

We discussed the other day why something is good or bad. The point is that your modern religionist or moralist or judicialist that these persons why do they have that opinion? The modern person why do they say it is not good to steal? They say it is obvious, it is not nice, it is not good, or you hurt the other person but did you hear anything about Krsna and all of this? No, nothing. That is why the devotee has to know knowledge and ignorance side by side. Because the point is it is not good because that is Krsna’s opinion. But to simply establish good and bad on your own opinion is useless. Now within Krsna’s opinion then we look at stealing. Then you apply it. Then we know stealing is bad unless you get the maha without anyone catching you because it is connected to Krsna. So you are actually attracted to Krsna. So that spontaneous attraction and endeavor then is very much appreciated. Unless you are caught, then you are in trouble. That is the idea it is connected to Krsna. 

You have to look in one’s own life why do I do and why do I have the value that I have, are they vidya or vaidya? Are they knowledge or are they ignorance? Because it won’t do if it is ignorance. It won’t work, it won’t be applicable within the Vaisnava society, it will only create trouble. Rupa Goswami says that: çruti-småti-purāëādi-païcarātra-vidhià vinā. If it is not according to the sruti the Vedas, the smrti the tradition, or the Pancaratra the rules and regulations then it is an annoyance in the society of Vaisnavas. It is not a problem to have an opinion and to be active and to apply it, just make sure that your opinion is in line with the Supreme opinion.  Otherwise it is a problem. 

That is now what we are bringing out is that the knowledge you can tell the difference. But now we are applying it because the real application is is Krsna involved or not. Because you have transcendental knowledge and not transcendental knowledge ok we understand that. But here it is said connected to Krsna or not connected to Krsna because that is what actually defines avidya, or ignorance. 

Devotee (3): Is the reason to know ignorance and knowledge side by side to distinguish between vidya and avidya, and practice vidya?

Maharaja: Yes. You want to know so you practice it because otherwise one may make the mistake. Vidya and avidya can look exactly the same. You have an apple it is sitting on the counter so is it vidya or avidya? How do you discern? 

Devotee (3): If it is offered or not

Maharaja: But even if it is not offered the concept that it could be offered is still vidya. But the concept wow there is an apple and just pick it up and eat it that is avidya. Because you are not connecting it to Krsna. That is why these things are important so that you can distinguish everything in your life that way. 

On the other hand, knowledge about the material creation, which describes the material objects as different energies of the Lord meant to be engaged in His service, is useful for spiritual advancement. Śrīla Prabhupāda explains in Renunciation through wisdom: 

So this is what is called apara-vidya.

The jīvas, being a product of the spiritual energy, try to exploit the material energy, but ultimately such attempts fail, because it is impossible for one energy to always exploit and lord it over another energy. The jīvas can, however, eternally serve the Supreme Energetic, Lord Kṛṣṇa. When the jīva exploits the material energy in his endeavor to serve the Lord, that activity is transcendental—the performance of sacrifice. Any other kind of activity amounts to nothing but materialistic, fruitive work.

That is just the fact. That point there destroys the concept that I am the controller and enjoyer because one energy cannot always be in control over another energy. It doesn’t work. If you have a group of females there always has to be something or someone that is prominent. Either something that everybody can get behind, some kind of third party, either as an object or a mood of enjoyment, or some individual has to be prominent and that one can’t be prominent all the time. Someone else at some point has to be prominent. It doesn’t mean as far as who is the boss but as far as who is getting the attention. It can’t be like that because there is no such thing as energy being constant. Krsna is constant but His energies are not. They are moving, always variety. 

Therefore the jiva being energy cannot always be lord of the material energy, at some point the material energy becomes lord. We want something to happen. We got it all lined up and done everything and then it starts to rain. Now who is the boss? So that is what is happening. So there is always going to be this flow of interaction. 

That progressive interaction that pleases Krsna because all of His energies are meant for His pleasure. Therefore if all the energies cooperate together for Krsna’s pleasure that is what makes them happy. 

Why did Krsna disappear from the rasa dance? Because the gopis weren’t qualified? No, they were all qualified. It is said that they were the most qualified girls in the cosmic creation, it doesn’t say universe, it says cosmic creation, but the problem was that each one of them thought that they were the center of attention, they weren’t cooperating. And Krsna wants to be able to dance with Radharani in the middle and then from there see the expansions of that of Krsna dancing with everybody else. That is fun. Because all the gopis will be expansions of Radharani. So they can watch that, they themselves can enjoy that and watch the extended. But they would start that they were they special one. So it had to be proven that no Radharani is the special one. Then they are all cooperating together then you can have the rasa dance. This whole point that if there isn’t cooperation, if there isn’t proper etiquette, if there isn’t proper understanding and interaction then Krsna is not happy because it is all His energies.  (end of lecture) (end)

(22nd Jan 2009, Śrī Īśopaniṣad Lecture #29, Bhaktivedānta Academy, Śrīdhāma Māyāpura)

This transcription is by Uddhava Priya Prabhu, used with permission from lecture folio that you can download HERE

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