This transcription is by Uddhava Priya Prabhu, used with permission from lecture folio that you can download HERE

January 2, 2009

Maharaja: According to Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura those who cultivate knowledge with the goal of impersonal liberation enter into darker ignorance.

They are cultivating knowledge with the goal of impersonal liberation, that is different from cultivating knowledge for devotional service.

because they “do not receive the shelter of the spiritual shakti unless they perform bhakti. Thus they (absorbed in vidya) enter into a darker region where the atma seems to be destroyed. If the jiva does not establish a relation with Paramatma in this material world, he cannot be liberated form matter. When a person gives up the variety of qualities found in this world as despicable, he then becomes attached to something without qualities, which creates a great obstacle for the jīva.” 

He is giving up the qualities of this world as despicable, that is a problem because he takes it that qualities is what is despicable. Maharaja Kulasekara if we note in his prayer he is saying when I am tasting this nectar of Krsna’s name, form, qualities and pastimes then why I think of mundane sense gratification I spit at the thought. So he hasn’t given up qualities, it is this distinguishing between something higher and superior and something definitely inferior. This is different from the impersonalists who are just giving up qualities. 

When you say that material sense gratification is disgusting and this and that, that is fine if it is in connection with something higher. But if you don’t have something higher and if that is disgusting then the problem is you give up qualities. It is very important in your own personal development and your own prayers of advancement that you make this distinction. It is not that the material world is bad just because it is bad. Material world as it is is designed by the Lord so it runs as good as it can with material energy, but the point is spiritual is so much far superior, because the material is rasa but it is inferior. 

The example is that of a child playing in the mud and eating the mud and then nice sandesh and other such sweets, you would have to be very childish to prefer the mud over actual proper food. We are not giving up the material world because it is bad, we are giving up the material world because we want to attain the spiritual world.

Devotee (1): We need to become familiar with saguna-Brahman and nirguna-Brahman and think in those terms?

Maharaja: If the material world is bad we are trying to turn it into nirguna, but the point is that’s not the point of Krsna consciousness. Krsna consciousness means we are conscious of Krsna, so any gunas of this material world are coming from Krsna also, but it is an inferior level. 

The only reason that the technique is used of not wanting something or saying it is bad is because of attachment. We say the material environment is bad because we are attached to it and we are not attached to the spiritual. That may in the beginning be something that we use but that can’t be a long-term technique. Because as one advances it has to be that one has a taste for the spiritual, you will not get to the spiritual world by having a distaste for the material. The distaste for the material may get you out of the material. But it won’t get you into the spiritual, it is not a qualification at all, the qualification to the get into the spiritual world is a taste for the spiritual. 

The whole idea is that the giving up of something here is because of the higher taste, that is what Krsna is saying in the Gita. One gives up a lower taste because of a higher taste. If you just give up the lower taste without the higher taste, then if one’s determination is to get that higher taste that is okay because you are removing one but your goal is to get another. But if you are just removing the one and not cultivating the other then you will be stuck, because you have given up taste but you haven’t actually developed spiritual taste. That will make the heart very hard. You won’t be able to relate or identify with other living entities in their feelings, their needs and their endeavors. It will just all be maya because you don’t have spiritual taste so you wouldn’t know if it is spiritual or not, so to you is that therefore any kind of qualities of attachment are bad. 

So Krsna consciousness is nice not because maya is bad. Krsna consciousness is nice because Krsna consciousness is nice. The only reason that we discuss maya and it is not so great is only because we are attached to maya, that’s all, that is the only reason 

Devotee (2): How is it that we are saying that something is bad if it is not?

Maharaja: Because only if it is bad we are willing to give it up. 

Devotee (2): So we consciously do this because we want to give it up?

Maharaja: Yes, but it is not so much a matter of giving up, it is a matter of attachment. You only have a discussion or consideration about something only due to attachment.

Devotee (2): If we are not attached then we are not interested in it – neutral? 

Maharaja: Yes, but then you won’t talk about it, if you are not interested then you won’t talk about it. But if you are interested whether it is negative or positive you will talk about it. There is some aspect of it, what aspect that is another thing, but there is some aspect of it that is important to you. That’s why you discuss it that is why it is of value, that is why it generates emotion. Because if it is something you are not attached to then you can discuss it without emotion, just very neutral and it doesn’t matter. 

Like if we ask which is better the 225mm tyres for his car or he should get the smaller ones or bigger ones, you would just say whichever ones are better for whatever you want to use it for. It doesn’t matter because to you you have no interst or attachment in this so therefore it is just whatever is proper. You need wider tyres you use it you don’t need them then why have it, what’s the big deal. But for someone else they are attached to it: well, like this because that one is nice, this one is that and that one so many things. They go on for an hour, this one is stupid, because tyres are very important for them. Therefore there is so much involved in it. 

That’s the whole point because of our attachment we have to discuss it, and if need be we discuss it in a negative light. But that negative light has to be compared to the positive light of Krsna consciousness, our philosophy is not to bash the material world and leave it at that. If we have nothing to do with the material world then why even bother bashing it. But because we have that attachment to the material world therefore we discuss on these terms. But because it is easier for us to relate to that negative kind of concept because of our impersonal mentality therefore we take it that it is a very prominent element of Krsna consciousness. 

So it’s like in the material world I am materially attached so I can be materially grumpy all day so I can now dovetail that and be spiritually grumpy all day, because everybody is doing something wrong. But the whole point is Krsna consciousness, if you are conscious of Krsna, then you are very happy, it is very uplifting and enlightening. As we were reading about the sankirtana, it gives anandambudhi-vardhanam: all bliss comes from there and that taste is also coming from there. The happiness, taste and dynamism is all coming from there so it is all very nice, so there is no problem.

 Our inspiration for something being good shouldn’t be that something else is bad, we use that in the political field: vote for this one because the other one is bad. No, it should be they vote for you because you are good, but in this material world everybody is bad. There is something wrong. If you are not bad then why are you here, in the jail everybody is bad they have done something wrong. 

When a person gives up the variety of qualities found in this world as despicable, he then becomes attached to something without qualities, which creates a great obstacle for the jīva’. Because this idea is thatmaterial world is bad so therefore he becomes attached to the concept that there is something without qualities that is better. The point is that this is bad because that is better, not that this is bad and that better doesn’t have that badness. So in other words, the idea that I go back to Godhead and I won’t suffer in the material world, that is not enough to get you into the spiritual world. You have to be in the spiritual world because you like the spiritual world, not that you don’t like the material world. 

It’s just like you are going to be with one person and you don’t like that person, but to not be with that person you are going to be with another person. That is the only way you can do it, then when that other person asks you why is it that you are here with me? I am here with you because to be away from that person I have to be with you. Will that person think wow that is great, this is going to be a great relationship here. 

The point of not being attracted to the material world because of its faults and wanting to get away from that that remains, that is not the problem. The problem is if you are not simultaneously cultivating the idea to get into the spiritual world because of the qualities there that you appreciate. Something is bad because there is something better. If there is bad that means there is good, so good should be appreciated for its goodness, rather than bad is not appreciated. Because if you just don’t like bad it doesn’t make you a good person, you are not a bad person but it doesn’t make you a good person. 

There is the idea that it is automatic but it is not. Spiritual is a different relationship, a different concept, therefore you have to cultivate that appreciation of the spiritual world. That is why Prabhupada has given us the Krsna book. Why we read these stories because we can appreciate these pastimes and the qualities and the rasa that is going on there. So we can can see that that rasa is superior and the rasa that goes on here is inferior therefore why shouldn’t we take that. The jiva’s nature is that, that is eternal rasa, that is in line with our nature. While here it is temporary rasa, it doesn’t actually fit our nature, therefore this is given up for that. 

Devotee (2): Does this attraction and attachment to the material world become less when understanding how spiritual is better or actually there must be higher taste?

Maharaja: As you understand it makes the material not as strong, there will be doubts about it. It doesn’t mean that you won’t be attached to it and continue to interact with it. It just means that it won’t have that same commitment that was there when you thought the material was all in all, there will be some doubt. One will deal with it but not with the same conviction. 

But from knowledge you can then get to the devotion, because it is knowledge about the spiritual realm therefore by hearing about that knowledge you can get attracted to that spiritual realm. Being attracted to it that can develop into a need, that will then give you that complete spiritual endeavor. But unless the field is understood, because without a field of activity there is no action. One’s the field of activity is there then there can be the attraction and attachment to the facilities of that environment.

Devotee (2): I went to one Ayurvedic doctor and the best prana in some activities day-by-day, month-by-month, year-by-year, spiritual or material, you become naturally attached to it whatever may be spiritual activities or material.

Maharaja: The point is by the work of karma any action you do it creates the seed to do it again. Therefore if you do something spiritual it creates the desire to do something spiritual again. If you do anything material then it creates the desire to do the material again. At some point you have to develop the seeds of I don’t, means you are cultivating the spiritual but the material is there so those seeds are going to come up and fructify again. Then you have to develop that activity that I don’t want to be involved in.

You could be, in other words, there is a situation in which a previous activity’s opportunity is manifesting. A material activity you have done it creates the desire to do it again, that situation comes up again in which you now can do it again. You have to decide I am not doing this, that will create the seed to not get involved in that material activity. Though the seeds of wanting to do it are still there but you have generated the ones of I don’t want to be involved in it. If you keep that practice up then eventually those will cut all the ones for. Because you are doing karma so there is only a limited amount of action that has been done so it can only give you results for a certain length of time before it runs out. If you are determined to not be involved with it, at some point then the situations in which you could be distracted are gone, you are in those situations but there is no desire to be involved in it. 

Devotee (2): Bhaktivinoda Thakura said we don’t have any spiritual power to counteract karma without enthusiasm for activities of spiritual practice. 

Maharaja: The jiva is very small, 1/10000 of a tip of a hair, so it is practically that you can’t even see it. The material energy is ¼ of the cosmic manifestation. If you compare those two then it is obvious who wins. But the spiritual world is three quarters, and also what it is in the material world that we are attached to is not the dead matter itself. It is the illusion that it is something special for us, therefore if you have even a small candle it will get rid of all the darkness in a very large room. 

The only way to get rid of the seeds of karma is through devotional service, there isn’t another way. But that devotional service is based on understanding, because if you can’t tell the difference between spiritual and material then how do you know whether you are doing spiritual activities? So you can’t be attracted to them. Because if we don’t know that is not called devotional service, it is called ajnata-sukrti. You know it is devotional service then you get the benefit of devotional service. If you don’t know then it is ajnata-sukrti, beneficial, but it doesn’t develop bhakti. It develops an environment in which that faith for bhakti can arise but it itself doesn’t develop that devotion. You are only going to conquer over material desire through practice of devotional service, that is what it means, that is just the mechanics of it. When there is devotional service then you don’t want to do that acitivity because you want to be engaged in devotional service, therefore you then stop that activity because the desire to not do that activity so you can be engaged in devotional service that starts to develop, that gives you results.

Devotee (2): So we do it consciously?

Maharaja: If you don’t do it consciously how else will it work? You can only do something unconsciously that gives you a result if you are practiced at it. You can brush your teeth without thinking, that is only because you brushed your teeth consciously for a long time, without consciousness there will develop no habit like that. 

Devotee (2): Then it is really your desire of you want to engage in activities that give you pleasure or Krsna pleasure. It is this will.

Maharaja: That is why our movement is called the International Society for Krsna Consciousness,  it is not the international society for a whole lot of difficult rules for mlecchas and yavanas to follow but they are going to follow it anyway because it is good for them. Plus it would be very hard to say all that, get all the letters together, shorten it down to the acronym for our society is stuvyxyz… it is not like that. 

All it is it is change your consciousness, that’s all our philosophy is. Just stop being attached to the material energy and be attached to Krsna, that’s all. That’s all you have to do, the gopis did it in a second, Maharaja Kadvanga did it in a second, the wives of the yajnic brahmanas did it in a second, that is what Krsna in the Gita recommends as the best process, because that is all you have to do, is just do that 

Devotee (2): Then why are we not pure devotees immediately?

Maharaja: Because we generally tend to go for the other options? Krsna says if you can’t do that then follow the rules of sadhana-bhakti, that will mean you will be absorbed in the Deity worship, in the sankirtana and preaching and that’s it. There won’t be anything else, there is no real social considerations other than basic etiquette between devotees, and your whole social life is the whole temple function and festivals like that. Krsna says if you can’t do that then you start to work for Him, then we introduce varnasrama, but naiskarmya. If you can’t do that then it is sakama varnasrama.

Devotee (2): If you can’t or if you don’t want?

Maharaja: If you can’t, because if you can surrender like that gopis did why don’t you do it right now that would be a lot better? Just think of this: If you go back right now, go back and take darsana of the Deities from the viewpoint of pure unalloyed devotion it is worth it. So you just have to do it, isn’t that what the add says? 

Devotee (2): You said that it’s not that we can’t but we don’t want

Maharaja: That is the whole point, it can be done but the jiva by his attachments won’t. So that is as good as can’t, because it is all on desire. The jiva that can do that then it works, those who don’t have that desire they can’t do that activity. Because only if there is desire can there be action, when desire matures to need then there is action. 

Like you tell someone do this you should do this, they don’t have any interest so they don’t want to do it. It is a nice devotional activity they should do, then you say if you don’t do this then you get in trouble.Now they have a need to not get in trouble therefore they do the activity, it is not that the activity itself is important to them.Their need is to stay out of trouble. So hopefully by practicing that long enough they start to see the benefits of the devotional activity. That’s why it says if you do this then you go to hell, so people don’t want to do that, because they don’t want to go to hell, but they don’t actually want to do the proper activity, but they only do it because they don’t want to go to hell. But the whole idea is that the soul should want to do uplifting activities, that should be their inspiration, and of all uplifting activities Krsna consciousness is the best activity, that is what they should be focused on. 

All it is you are adjusting your attachment from the material to the spiritual, that is why this point is being made by Bhaktivinoda Thakura is that if you give up the varieties of qualities in this world out of repulsion then the problem is you become attached to something that has no qualities. Then if you are attached to something with no qualities then how can you get attached to something with qualities, because your idea is advanced is no qualities, is detachment. No, advanced is attachment but to the spiritual. But to go from material attachment to spiritual attachment there must be that moment of material detachment. But it has to be that the cause of that detachment is spiritual attachment, otherwise if it is simply repulsion of the material then that itself won’t actually be useful in spiritual life, because then you have rejected qualities without accepting a higher quality.

Devotee (2): And not accepting a higher quality is due to envy?

Maharaja: In the case of the impersonalists it would be envy, because they want to remain as God. They want to give up the material world but remain as the controller and enjoyer. For us it is basically the same thing, it is not necessarily a philosophy you are so focused but it is the idea that if I give up something, means we have to maintain an identity to function as an individual. So then the identity somehow I don’t get involved with this, but unless the identity I get involved is something positive then you are going to be acting in a very dry environment because there is no qualities, so your identity changes and that identity is not very useful for devotional service. The point is not that one doesn’t get detached from the material energy, but one is getting detached by becoming attached to the spiritual. That is why it is said you have to cultivate knowledge and ignorance side by side. Those who cultivate just ignorance they get materially absorbed, those who cultivate just the spiritual, they never actually get out of the material world because it is just sentimental. They have to do them both at once so they actually understand the material and give that up for the spiritual. Otherwise the spiritual is nice but you don’t make any distinction. 

You have to make distinction that you specifically like Krsna and His devotees in Vraja better than anything else. They are people, you want to be with them, it got to be that you want to be with them, not because… they are not going to let you into Vraja because you don’t like it here in the material world. It is not a shelter for homeless souls, it is not a welfare-organization, that is called the Brahman, that will give shelter to all kinds of homeless souls, because it is the reflection of qualities but no one knows that that is what it is. That is even on Krsna’s part a trick. Even the impersonalists think I am attached to this nirguna-Brahman, they think it has no qualities but it is the effulgence of qualities. But they don’t know that because they have rejected qualities. Even Krsna, they can’t get away from Krsna and His qualities, nobody does, they just think they do, that is maya. That is why they are still in maya, therefore Mayavadis.

Devotee (3): Attachment…

Maharaja: The whole point is because spiritual attachment is ultimately what we are trying to get to, that full complete attachment to Krsna and nothing else, then working with the principle of attachment is not a problem. That’s why in the process there is whatever one’s attached to of this world, whatever is important to you you engage that in Krsna’s service. It doesn’t matter, you were very good at economics before and doing all those things in that kind of field. So when one comes to Krsna consciousness one can engage that field in Krsna’s service, if one is a manager one does that, if one is an artist one uses that. Whatever was one’s ability you engage it in Krsna’s service. 

The point is that if that attachment, that form of attachment but you are connecting it to Krsna, then that attachment is being connected to Krsna. On Krsna, that is your aropya, your attachment is overlaid on top of something else. It is not necessarily of that quality but you see it like that, then that attachment becomes purified and becomes a process of both your freedom from that attachment and your attachment to Krsna. Because you are doing it for Krsna therefore you become attached to Krsna. Because you are doing that same activity that for you is an attachment, material, that had nothing to do with Krsna, that you are doing it for Krsna, now it removes that material attachment. So you become freed from the need for that but it doesn’t mean that you can’t comfortably use for Krsna’s service. In the beginning it may be that I want to be a manager because I am attached to management and I am in control etc. but if you actually do it for Krsna then you become purified. But because management is a field that works well with your nature, you are comfortable to work within it. But your motive no longer is your need for the facilities or experience of management what was your motive before, now it is simply to please Krsna, so it transforms, that’s why the external… 

That’s why Prabhupada said you don’t have to change your position, you just have to change the consciousness. You change the consciousness then it all changes, then it all becomes done nicely for Krsna. From that then you start being able to move from well-done activities for Krsna of a lower nature to well-done activities for Krsna of a higher nature. Because devotional service should be favorable to Krsna, therefore ultimately it should be activities that Krsna likes. In the beginning the favorable is you are doing to try to please Him, but it is your activity that you want to please Him with. But ultimately it changes to those activities that actually please Krsna. That’s why the sastra gives recommendation of activities, but at the same time it gives rules and regulations on all activities, whatever you can do. That’s why sometimes it seems to be confusing, because the sastra is saying that if you are going to do this activity you do it like this, these are all the rules this and that, and this is how you are going to advance and develop. But at some point it says but actually better is you don’t do this.

For example Manu will give that in previous ages when the animals could be offered in sacrifice it gives a whole thing that this in non-violence because the animal is killed according to sacrifice, so it is elevated. So the animal itself and the person doing the sacrifice are both benefitted. So there is no violence because it is according to the rules of sastra, and then saying that if any animal is not killed according to sastra then that is violence and you get a bad reaction for it. But if it is killed according to sastra then there is no reaction. It doesn’t say no reaction it says no sin, it will go on and on like this, the benefits of this and that. But at the end of having said all that, after about 30 verses, then it says. But better than this is if you actually think about it: the origin of vegetables and the origin of meat then you think this is not very good, because the origin of all meat is from semen and ovum, so it is pretty disgusting, and that is where it all started. Therefore from that point it is just inferior to vegetables. Then it goes on to say that someone who does 100 Asvamedha-yajnas and someone who is a vegetarian for 100 years. The same amount of time, they both get the same benefit, then having said then it gives you the point of the reaction… It said before that there is no sin in killing the animal, because if you are talking to a person who is going to kill animals anyway then you talk to him about the sin not the reaction, because by doing it according to sastra there will be no sin. So he’ll do that, you just faness (?) the reaction part. Then at the end having convinced the person,  then you say meat is called mamsah – mam, I kill you and then in the next life you, sah can kill me. So the reaction is still left, no sin, you won’t go to hell. But that doesn’t mean that you are not going to be the next horse in the next sacrifice. A good horse with all good qualities but nonetheless. Then it seems it is confusing, they say it is contradictory. No, the sastras are recommening a vegetarian diet, but for those who can’t here are the rules about it. 

That’s why in the Vedic culture if you read about Agastya Muni who is invited but Ilvala for lunch and he is feeding him non-vegetarian stuff, but he is going because he knows that this Ilvala and his brother are killing brahmanas in this way, they take Vatapi and he can take any form, so he takes the form of a ram and then they cut him up into pieces and cook him and then the brahmana eats him. Then having eaten Ilvala has a mantra and he can call his brother out he will take his full form again, busting out of the stomach of the brahmana killing him and everything goes on. And they have a good laugh and invite the brahmana, in this way they keep themselves entertained. So he eats Vatapi and digests him immediately. He has a good digestion, and then when he chants the mantra then Vatapi is gone he is not around anymore, so then he stops that whole problem. So we don’t think bad how could they eat meat. No, it is a matter of the rules are there and there is no sin if it is done in this way but it is not the recommended higher platform. 

Just like the Vedic culture being practiced according to naiskarmya is higher than sakama, but if you follow according to sakama it is still progressive. So if you are on that platform of sakama you do that. If you are on the platform of niskama then you follow that. If you don’t even need those areas then why bother with that you just follow Pancaratra because then it is just Deity worship, chanting and studying. It is only those activities directly connected to Visnu. 

The Vedic means all the activities can be connected to Visnu but you might not connect them, so if you don’t connect them then you don’t get the benefit of connecting them. But the pancaratrika rules all of it is connected to Visnu, so whether you are conscious of that or not fully you still get the benefit of having done service to Krsna. You are worshiping the Deity and don’t fully understand the technicalities of it and all that but you have faith that this is Krsna, then you get the benefit. But if I ask you to explain how Visnu, Vaikuntha-pati, has now become stone, that maybe you can’t do but that doesn’t mean that it still doesn’t work. Or you are taking the bath worshiping the Deity. While you are taking the bath you are thinking of other things but you still get the benefit of having come clean to the temple to worship the Deity. 

But in the Vedic which is accommodating your desires beyond Pancaratra that is the only reason it is there, because Pancaratra is Vedic, it is just selected Vedic. You have the full broad range of all the Vedic activities, then collecting out of that full broad range all the activities that are directly connected with the Deity, or in support of that, that is called Pancaratra. It is not that it is a separate system, because Brahma asked Krsna you explain to me the essence of the Vedas, so that is Pancaratra. Because that means every activity is connected to Krsna, to the Deity. So there, whether you are conscious of it or not you get the benefit, the more you are conscious so more benefit. But in the Vedic you have the option you can connect it or not. So if you connect it you get that benefit, if you don’t connect it you don’t get the benefit. That’s why it is not as good a situation as the Pancaratra. 

When Prabhupada said now we need to establish varnasrama, it wasn’t that he hadn’t established varnasrama, he just had established the essence of it. We had the 4 asramas and the brahminical varna, that is all you need to run, that is Pancaratra. But devotees had desires beyond just what could be taken care of in the temple lifestyle, therefore varnasrama will take care of that which is beyond the temple lifestyle. 

You take the temple to your house but you are having to maintain that, and it is not exactly, means your house is a temple but you are going out and making money isn’t technically maintaining a temple, because you are getting money according to your varna. Then you are engaging that in the activities because you have made your house a temple, but the house isn’t inherently a temple. It is only because you see that therefore it is working that way. If you don’t see it that way then it doesn’t work that way

The idea that 25 years ago I used to do that that is nice you get that credit but today you are not doing that, so one can’t stand on that. I was a temple president 25 years ago, great, nice. I am sure there was so much benefit everyone got, you got, the preaching was nice. But right now you are not doing bootkes (?), therefore don’t sit around and pontificate and tell everyone else how they should run the temple. You did it, yes, but that was 1970 what. 

Therefore the idea is what is direct and not direct that is what is there, the Vedic system though inherently its core is direct, because the jiva doesn’t necessarily have the desire, like what mataji was talking about, it doesn’t have the desire to be God conscious. Therefore to still make that non-God conscious lifestyle progressive the Vedas then have details that will accommodate every aspect of your non-devotional interest. But the reason that it is there is because all those activities that in your mind are non-devotional are actually inherently devotional to Krsna, though unless you are conscious of it you won’t get that benefit. 

That’s why the system is not well understood. It is because in the same purport sometimes, generally it is different paragraphs. Prabhupada would talk about the benefit of the Vedic system at the same time he will talk about the Vedic system not being used for Krsna is for is useless. Because for us anything not used for Krsna is useless, so what they take is that the Vedic system therefore is useless. So that leaves us with the modern, but Prabhupada’s point is what is not connected to Krsna is useless. 

Human life begins at Vedic culture, before that is not human life that is animal life, but it doesn’t mean that you can’t connect animal life to Krsna. But one should have the intelligence to discern between animal life connected to Krsna and human life connected to Krsna. To say they are both the same means a lack of discrimination or a lack of information, Prabhupada says the poor fund of knowledge. 

Therefore it is a matter of human life not connected to Krsna is a gold chain, and animal life not connected to Krsna is an iron chain. The point is you are bound to the material world, therefore we can say all kinds of choice things about both of them, that’s why it is hard to understand this. The Hindus don’t understand this because we can speak very strongly against the Vedic paradigm, but that is only if it is not connected to Krsna. If it is connected to Krsna then one always takes the Vedic. If it is connected to Krsna then automatically… Vedic connected to Krsna is Bhagavata if it is spontaneous, or Pancaratra if it is not, there isn’t something else. Vedic connected to Krsna is actually Bhagavata. If we don’t have that natural spontaneity then rules are given how to apply that Vedic connected to Krsna and it is called Pancaratra, it is just a matter of understanding the field. 

In the Sixth Chapter of Nectar of Devotion Rupa Goswami is describing the 64 items of devotional service, that he has gleaned from Sanatana Goswami’s Hari-bhakti-vilasa and the instructions of Lord Caitanya. Now in here the general explanation is that this is vaidhi-bhakti, but Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura very clearly says that is not vaidhi-bhakti that is devotional service, that is sadhana-bhakti. Those 64 items can be done according to vaidhi or raga, that is a separate issue, but the 64 that is sadhana-bhakti. So whatever your mentality the form of it is going to be the same. 

In the same way the Vedic culture is the form of the Vaisnava community. Now depending upon your consciousness then it is going to be sakama, niskama or actually just being done as devotional service, but that is your consciousness. But that is the form of culture. If you go to Vraja they are following varnasrama, if you go to Dvaraka they are following varnasrama, if you go to Vaikuntha they are following it, if you go to Mayapura they are following it, in navadvip they are following it, in Ayodhya they are following it. So that is just the culture they follow, you just drop off a lot of the stuff, but even if it is not there then in Krsna-lila they are talking about karma-kanda stuff:

Radharani goes out to worship the sun-god. To worship the sun-god that is why all these rules are for. Now she as a girl can’t directly worship they Deity because it is a public Deity, she has one in her house and she can worship but the is the public Deity so only men can worship, now she needs a brahmana. Now who is that brahmana going to be? By the clever arrangement of Kundalata and others it is going to be Krsna, so he dresses up as a brahmana and then Radharani goes there and Kotila and Jatila and everybody is there, and she is interacting with that brahmana. And Jatila is saying now listen to everything he says, do everything exactly the way he says, then Krsna is having her chant all these mantras from Vatsyayana. So nobody actually understands what’s going on, and she says I have never heard of those mantras before. What do you means it is from this sastra this and that, they are going on and having a jolly good time, but why is it?

Because you have to worship the devas and the devas can only be worshipped through a male pujari then that makes Krsna there. But if the women are liberated and they can do whatever they want. Then Radharani what does she need Krsna for?So all these rules are stemming from the spiritual world, it is the culture they follow. 

It’s just like if the wives of the yajna brahmanas very sitting down and doing the yajna would they have been able to get up and come out and give everything to Krsna? No, because their husbands are sitting doing the yajna, therefore they can pick up all the paraphernalia and walk off while he is sitting there at the fire and give it all to Krsna. There is a culture there, it is the way Krsna likes it to unfold. So that is why it is there, but it is in its pure state. 

The pure state is the Bhagavata culture, but the form of it is in this varnasrama. So the material varnasrama doesn’t have to be followed by someone who is following it in the spiritual world. In one’s svarupa one is following the culture there, that’s why you don’t have to follow it here, but someone who is not following it there can’t give up the rules here, means you have to be following it. Some form have to be followed, it is just a matter of is it here or there. Therefore those who are there don’t have to follow it here but for preaching they will. 

It is very important to understand the actual context of which we deal, because you have something that is not inherently good or bad. Like ingredients for the kitchen, you have rice, dal and sabji, they are not inherently good or bad. You cook it for the karmi restaurant it is bad, you cook it for Krsna it is good. In that way the Vedic rules and all that are just human culture, now it is just a matter of whether it is connected to Krsna that makes it good. It is not connected to Krsna it is bad, it is very simple but very broad.T hat is the difficulty, it is not partism, that is very easy, we are this, we are that. No, it is very broad that is why we can accommodate, Prabhupada can accommodate 

Prabhupada was in the kitchen of the Agrawal’s house, he has his vegatables in the same refrigerator that they are keeping all their non-veg stuff. But for Prabhupada it is he uses his stuff and they use their stuff. Everybody’s got to eat, so eating is the principle. So they are just eating something very inferior, while he is eating something connected to Krsna. 

Therefore then he doesn’t get bent out of shape, because he doesn’t pull in other rules there. You use those rules that are positive and connect it to krsna in the situation you are in, therefore he doesn’t go on those rules of purity and this and that because there is no option for that. But he still connects it to Krsna, because he is going to take his bindhi and cook it for Krsna. He is just going to avoid everything else that is not important. This is just how Vaisnavas are very normal people that can work with anybody, because they appreciate whatever platform they are functioning at. And they can accommodate that, but that doesn’t mean that they would do that or that they would recommend it. 

When the whole thing was with Sivananda who was a kid then and he decided that he is going to kill himself and he wanted 5 dollars to buy a gallon of gasoline. I forgot what it was but he asked for something ridiculus, then all the devotees are saying, oh he is trying to kil himself and that is what they were worried about, and then after prabhupada was discussing it then he says what do you think. When I heard that something that was 25 cents and he wanted 5 dollars for then I knew he was crazy. The point was that he wanted to kill himself and people sometimes think like that, they feel very depressed this that, that is not the problem. The problem is that he is crazy now how do you deal with someone who is crazy and wants to kill himself? People you see all the time. Arjuna wants to kill himself, Yudhisthira wants to kill himself, that kind of thought it happens in a very emotional state. Then you deal with it in an appropriate emotional way then it goes away. But if the person is crazy then you got a problem, then the normal methods don’t work. Because Prabhupada, oh that can kill… he said what is the benefit of it, what will you get from it, it is practical. Other people do the negative-opposite reaction emotional and that reinforces their emotion, but you just do it in a different field, ok you want to kill yourself, are you sure petrol is the best way? Then that makes them think and after a while they go this is stupid, but they can’t be crazy to use these methods. (end of lecture)

Maharaja: The problem is that the impersonalists interpret that the impersonal generally applies on the Mayavadis, but the actual point is that impersonalism is one of the things that holds us back in our own devotional service. Devotees will say that something is socially bad, they are only saying it is socially bad not because there is a higher principle to it but they and their mind consider it bad. So it is the good and bad of the thing itself and it has actually nothing to do with Krsna consciousness. That’s a problem and that’s why they can’t solve it, because then you are dealing with one’s own personal emotional needs as opposed to those needs connected to Krsna, so there is no common ground. 

Because having a cosmopolitan environment everybody is coming from such different backgrounds their actual personal viewpoints will be very different, then if you don’t have Krsna consciousness as the common point then you don’t have community. People even within the same country or even community there are divisions, let alone when you are dealing with different continents. That is the weakness that unless Krsna consciousness is the basis then there is a problem, people don’t care of the cows, then that is bad. Why is it bad? It’s got to be connected to Krsna. The women are saying they are not taken care of that is bad. Why is it bad? It is unfair, they have rights, equal rights, none of this has anything to do with Krsna. Krsna is that women are protected and how they are supposed to be protected that is Krsna consciousness,  that is not being done, being pushed. There have been zero solutions to the problem.The problem with the kids are not protected, the cows are not being protected, the women are not being protected.No one says anything even about the brahmanas, it is just a matter of a few years before they start jumping up and down about the old people not being protected. But there is no solutions because they are not dealing with Krsna consciousness. They are just dealing with the entity itself which has nothing to do with Krsna consciousness, so they can’t get a solution because each one has a different idea. 

Like the women made a whole stink about that they have to be able to do all these things to do the aratika in Prabhupada’s samadhi. Why can’t they do the aratika and all this, so there is a big thing. All women together are rising up and saying all this, but then when they say that you can do the aratik then they practically kill each other over who is going to do the aratika. Because then it was like this one, no she is off the wall, but they didn’t mind her getting up there yelling and screaming. When it comes down which lady can be a guru, then the women have the strongest opinion about this woman should never be a guru. That is the whole thing, where is the Krsna consciousness? 

Where is the element of how it is connected to Krsna? It just sounds good, but they are only saying this because they are Americans. They have their own bill of rights, amendments, a constitution, that is what they are speaking on, they are speaking as Americans. They are no speaking as someone following a religion or Krsna consciousness, so it is based on that, their own conditioned nature, that’s what it is based on. It is fine to start from there. Ok, the women are suffering so they feel bad, what are the actual standards, what is the Krsna conscious method, why that has not being applied. Push that then it is something that everybody can get behind because that what it says in the sastra. But they avoid that because they don’t want to get things that they shouldn’t be doing, therefore you have to leave the sastra again, but in that they leave themselves open they are not protected. 

Ok Moscow they do a yajna, here and there they do an abhiseka or this and that, but still they are not protected, still they are not happy. And a lady in Moscow if her husband is not there she won’t be doing yajnas, because only if he sets it up and makes all the arrangements she can sit there and do the yajna. Those kinds of things they have nothing to do with Krsna consciousness, though it seems like it. They talk like it is just because it sounds good. Yes, anybody any democratic free-thinking intellectual would think in this way, but what has that got to do with Krsna? They have already taken that is good. Krsna is good so therefore anything I think is good is Krsna conscious, but the mathematical formula doesn’t exactly work like that. A equals B equals C means the B actually has to be spiritual, so that is a problem. Like when the twin-towers went down, there were some devotees who were really upset when other devotees were saying it is karma they deserved it, come on, you are American how can you say this, they actually said that I heard it. This is a problem, these things we are talking about the Mayavadis and this and that. It is easier because it is third party but actually we have to apply it to ourselves. If we take it direct, it is aimed at first party then it becomes very difficulty. But if we aim it at third party, then we can discuss it and not be disturbed 

Devotee (4): Material world is ¼ and it is supposed to be something very insignificant and ¼ is a lot. 

Maharaja: Because that is material energy, that is not material consciousness. You are here in this material world for your consciousness, Krsna comes here in the material world and they have their pastimes and they have a great time, so you are here because of your material consciousness. This material consciousness means this dead matter you attribute it to having life and having value. If I bring a solid gold watch and put it down here and take this rock and start to bang it, then wait, wait, wait, why? It is dead matter, you put value to it. 

It is said this pebble and a chunk of gold have actually the same value, basically nothing but we attribute value to it. So that illusion that is what is very great, but at the same time its insignificance is it is an illusion. It is like a mirage in the desert, it has no meaning, so it is very insignificant. Don’t confuse the physical dead matter with the illusion that you have about that dead matter, so the insignificance is your illusion about that dead matter. The volume of dead matter is ¼ of the cosmic manifestation 

Devotee (4): It is still a lot

Maharaja: What does it matter if it is a lot it is just inferior nature, you are not getting yourself out of dead matter, you are getting yourself out of the illusion that dead matter is something valuable. 

Devotee (4): It diminishes the value of the spiritual world, if such a big part of existence is dedicated to the…

Maharaja: So you just work on gross volumes, that’s all. So you are going to have a problem, let us work on this gross volume. There is 14 planetary systems, and on this planetary system, the earth planetary system there are nine islands. So on all the 14 planetary systems they are all following Vedic culture today. And on all these other varsas, I mean these other islands they are following Vedic culture today, then on this planet there is a portion of it that takes up this Western lifestyle, that may be 300-500 million people that follow it out of 6 billion, so by volume who should be superior? The Vedic culture. But the problem is we don’t follow that, we follow the modern, because we think it is more significant, so actually we don’t go by volume we go by whatever we feel like. If I took this little rock here and I took a piece of gold half that size and put it next to it and say you can choose whichever one you want, which one you are going to take? So you don’t work by volume you work by what you like. Since you like volume that is important to you therefore you are considering that the spiritual world is diminished, but if you have a diomand of the same size as a piece of glas someone with knowledge knows that the diamond is valuable. Like kids when you take them into the sweet shop, little kids and tell them buy any sweet you want, they always pick the biggest sweet, even if it is the cheapest and has the least taste, but they’ll always get the biggest. 

Devotee (4): Still the spiritual world is bigger than the material world 

Maharaja: Since when is volume what is important? It is quality. Is the diamond’s importance dinished because it is the same size as a piece of glass? You got a plastic bangle and a gold bangle of the same size. Is the gold bangle diminished?

Devotee (4): If we have a family…

Maharaja: 1/10 of the living entities are in the material world . 9/10 are in the spiritual world, so that is 1/10. So that helps your proportions any better? So 9 out of 10 jivas go to the spiritual world, only 1/10 are idiots enough to come here. 

Devotee (4): For all eternity may be now there is one…

Maharaja: No, that is always the proportion, out of every 10 jivas 9 decide to go back to Godhead and 1 comes over here, so that is the proportion, so it is only 1/10. But what does it matter you are trying to increase its value by saying it is ok for me to be stupid and be here because the spiritual world is only 3 times bigger anyway, so it doesn’t really matter that I am here.What would be the benefit of that viewpoint? What benefit would you get by thinking like that? 

Devotee (4): I am disconcerted about…

Maharaja: That’s why I am saying therefore volume is very important to you, but more important than volume is quality. Quality is more important than volume, isn’t it? The common person thinks by mass therefore if he can find one other person that agrees with him he thinks everybody thinks like this. But in the Vedic system you take one person who knows the truth over thousands or millions of people who speak the untruth. Even if they all concur, say the same thing, since when are we worried about volume, it is always quality.

Devotee (4): If we have a nice city where people are very efficient and then it turns out that ¼ of the city is the garbage dump.

Maharaja: Yes, but there is a nice wall around the garbage dump so that the garbage dump is never even seen, heard or smelled of in the rest of the city, as far as the city goes it doesn’t have anything to do with it

Devotee (4): It fixes the choices it’s better you go out of the garbage dump, but still why such a big proportion for the garbage dump?

Maharaja: Because there is that many idiots like us, that’s why. So then you have to understand that you are in the garbage dump out of your decision, so if it is disconcerting thatone quarter is that big then why did you go there?

Devotee (4): That’s accepted, that’s my foolishness, I have to get out. 

Maharaja: So what is the relevance of this, because all it will do is keep you from being enthusiastic to go there. 

Devotee (4): It’s just a very minor point, it’s just that I think I don’t understand something. 

Maharaja: So what’s does that means Krsna made a mistake here? 

Devotee (4): My understanding is that if it was one quarter of all of His energies means that Krsna gives one quarter of his attention to the material world? 

Maharaja: No, because it is so minor, what does it take to manage a garbage dump? Hardly any. Krsna says in the Gita it is a spark of his splendor that he manages this whole thing, it is spark.

Devotee (4): Sometimes it says it’s one quarter of His creative energy. What I was thinking is that it’s not one quarter of all of His energies just one of His millions of energies and this is one quarter of that energy. 

Maharaja: But the point is why the need to reduce it to make yourself feel better? In the Brahma-samhita it is called the tri-pada and the eka-pada. Now in that one quarter in the maha-tattva then we have Maha-Visnu who is lying down and who is very large, then you have the Causal ocean there that is also spiritual, that is the Yamuna. Then on that when He breathes out then all these universes unlimited and they sit on top of that water. So He and that water are much bigger than what is manifest there. Are you worrying about the shell on the outside or what is going on inside? Because once we calculate on the universe the covering is if the inside of the universe is one inch then the coverings would be from here to Krsnanagara, are you worried about that or the one inch?

Devotee (4): If a state has one quarter of all of his buildings as a prison houses then it creates a doubt whether the laws are very efficient in this country…

Maharaja: The thing is you don’t understand love, you are a manager, you have to learn… this is a society for learning what is actual relationship and love. Since being a manager and therefore the efficiency of moving around dead matter is so important to you you would think that you wouldn’t be bothered by that it takes up so much space. Because if you actually understood love then all this doesn’t matter. Love means it is voluntary, so it is just the opposite that God actually allows. It is not that He can’t manage it, it is not that there is the devil in it and it functions separate from Him, it is not a Christian concept that it is something separate from God. He allows the living entities that are so dear to Him and He has so much affection for that they want to be separate from Him and actually act like Him and He creates a playground for them to enact their so-called trying to be God and He makes all those arrangements. He takes all those forms, all the energies that are there. He does everything that you want out of His affection for you. With the idea that He will wait forever for you to get it together and decide that, well this is stupid and come back to our natural position, that is called someone who has some very serious affection, and it is out of that that He has created this. 

That is what the space is and plenty of space is given so they stay very far away. Just like let us say there is a prison and you are living on wherever your house is and where that wall is, the demarcation, then you have right there is the place and you can see all the people in their windows, leaning out and making faces at you. Would you be happy, or would you be happy that is the demarcation and then it is many many miles before there is even any building. So you have the spiritual world, you have the whole brahmajyoti, then you have this whole Causal ocean and everything like that, and then inside these little very well-contained little units of the Hiranyagarbha, then it is a very small place in which 14 planetary systems and everybody does their illusory activities. Therefore it takes up so much space so it keeps them very far away. Isn’t that a good arrangement? That is called good management. 

The point is it is affection that makes everything work. State laws are different, that is just efficiency of management, but God’s laws are based on the principle of relationship. For the jiva they have that voluntary aspect, that is a special kind of affection, it is voluntary, therefore it adds. The main affection is between Him and the internal potency which is just a natural affection, but you can add to that by the jivas, so therefore it is voluntary that we choose either. (end)

(2nd Jan 2009, Sri Īśopaniṣad Lecture #25, Bhaktivedānta Academy, Śrīdhāma Māyāpura)

This transcription is by Uddhava Priya Prabhu, used with permission from lecture folio that you can download HERE

Comments
All comments.
Comments