MAN WOMAN INTERACTION LECTURE #19 Eger, Hungary, 8th Aug 2007 Part 2

HH BVPS Maharaja: We were on that other guy. Oh, he didn't come, he is not here. We just start.

Prabhu: So I would like to go back to this question of trust.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Trust?

Prabhu: Trust. I have had an experience that a person lost trust in a leader of the community, and then he lost trust in the movement, too. So he stopped his Krishna conscious activity, and finally he left the movement. So my question is, how can we overcome this problem, how can we maintain trust in a person who loses confidence in a leader or in someone else, in a person, but then projects this to the whole movement?

HH BVPS Maharaja: See, there is the principle of trust and then there is the particular detail, or application. So if someone who has faith in the principle of trust, then they'll apply... If there is anything that's come up where trust is lost, it's only applied in that one area. So in other words, the trust was lost way before they joined Krishna consciousness. Most likely, it was already lost in their family. Like that. You know, so it has to be something where just the principle of trust doesn't function. Because if you want to be realistic, okay, you can't trust, if you don't trust the particular devotee, then no devotees, then the movement, how can you trust the material world? You've already messed it up before you even got here. You know what I am saying?

So the principle of trust has to be there, if you wanna do anything, trust has to be there. You get in an elevator because you trust it will get you to where you wanna go, or you get on a bus because you trust it will get you to that place. Right? You get on a bus here, and on the bus it says "Budapest," so you think it's going to Budapest. And the bus driver, you know, locks the doors and then starts laughing and says, "We are actually going to Debrecen." [Laughter] Right? So there is trust. Everything is based on trust. So it's the one thing you can count that's still may have some validity in the Kali yuga. You buy things on trust, so it's still it's working on that. So the principle is not the problem. The problem is is that... Yeah.

Means, someone has some ideology. And that's good. But if it doesn't exactly work, it's not that there is a problem in that ideology. The problem is is that it's the material world and things don't necessarily go the way they should, so therefore one would just be more careful. In other words, if you don't wanna get hurt, you use your intelligence. It doesn't mean that you don't put yourself in the situations, I mean, any situation you put yourself in that there is a relationship there is the possibility to become hurt. But there is the possibility you won't get hurt also. It's like when you sit down to a meal, it's possible it will be good, it's possible it will be bad, so does that mean we don't try? Right? You know what I am saying? So that's the point is that we always try. You go to the pool, it may be warm, it may be cold. So you stick your finger in it first, or your toe. Right? And so then deciding what's there then you decide what to do. So intelligence always has to be applied, even when you are dealing in relationships. So you deal appropriately, therefore you get the appropriate response. Does that make sense? So trust is a principle that's there. And God is always there, but we don't judge God's presence or not on how nicely the material world works. You know, it's like saying, "If there is a God, this dog won't bark." That's called miracle, we are talking reality. You want every moment will be a miracle? You know what I am saying?

Things didn't go so well for one of our preachers, but after 2,000 years people still have faith in his teachings. Right? So if you look at that means that even if you are really well connected, you are on the inside track, things don't always go well in the material world. No? Like that. And what do they immortalize in their faith is the point in time that didn't go well for this preacher. Right? You know, they don't have, he's not generally just sitting there peacefully and preaching and all that, it's at the worst possible material moment you could find him in. The point is, material world is material world. One is born, is gonna grow old and die. So religion and God consciousness is meant how to solve that problem, means, how to stop birth and death. Right? So how to go to the spiritual world. Religion is not to make this place nice. If you are in a toilet, it's a toilet. It's not that you make the toilet, so it's fabulous and it's wonderful and move in there. Does that make sense? Is that okay? You had something?

Prabhu: In the 4th canto, when we read the story of Dhruva Maharaja, and Narada Muni appears in front of him and starts instructing him, and Dhruva Maharaja says that although your instructions are very relevant, I am unable to accept them, because my heart is broken. And in the purport Prabhupada also brings up this point that the heart and the mind can break, and this is something I would like to hear about to understand.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Break means, you consider there is a particular relationship and then you at least either perceive or find that it's not like that. Because relationship means, there is a connection. So as long as the connection is there, relationship works, connection is not there then it doesn't work. So if you become dependent upon that relationship, but that depends upon that connection. So the connection then is not, if that's broken then naturally then that's what it means by the heart or the mind is broken. Right? So it's based on that the relationship isn't what you thought it was. Right? Does that make sense?

Dhruva Maharaja thought, he had a strong relationship with his father. But his father didn't pay attention to him because of the father's wife who wasn't his mother, that means his stepmother. So that meant, the depth that he thought it was with his father wasn't there, that depth was there between his father and the stepmother. Therefore it's broken. Or between his father and his own mother it wasn't as strong as he thought. So he found out his father's relationship with his stepmother was stronger that with his own mother or with him. Right? So therefore then it was broken. Do you understand? So when a relationship isn't what you thought it was, then it can create that phenomena. So the only way to deal with it, really, is intelligence and time. Of course, performance of spiritual activities will purify the hearts of that one will not be as affected or put one's faith that strongly in material life. Does that make sense? Yeah? Okay.

Mataji: So I would like to ask about divorce and beating the wife.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, if they are synonymous or something? [Laughter] "I'd like to ask about feeding and training goats." "I'd like to ask about divorce and beating the wife." Means, you wanna know what's the proper way to beat your wife, or you just only use the hand, or you use certain implements, what implements are used? You leave a bruise, you don't leave a bruise? How many bruises you can leave? What's the percentage of square footage that can actually have bruises, or...? How do you tell if it's a really good bruise? What are the qualities of... [Laughter] So what is your question about divorce and beating the wife?

Mataji: In earlier years, when we had difficulties, my husband regularly heard an advice that, "Well, in the worst case, this is the solution, either divorce, or you beat your wife." And this made my life quite difficult, because they didn't try to come to other solutions. Although it never happened, but still I want to ask what's the position of these...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Oh, these two things in relationship to solving marital problems? In cultured families in India... You notice, we opened with the word "cultured," and that's not people who deal in yogurt and cheese, we are not talking about people who deal in the field of yogurt or cheese or arranging art or musical programs. We mean, people who by nature and their dealings are cultured. Does that make sense? It's considered like one of those things that everybody talks about very quietly, if somebody in the greater family beats his wife, it's like a dark family secret that everybody kind-of like, "Uh..." Does that make sense?

In other words, in the Vedic culture you don't really see it. Means, uncultured, hey, what can we say? But in cultured you don't see. Right? The point is is, if they don't know how to deal, then they are not really great solutions. The husband is supposed to generate security, not generate insecurity. These are the discussions of men amongst men who really are convinced that they are men. You know what I am saying? But according to the tradition, the only way you can tell they are men is by... How you say? The consultation of a doctor who understands human anatomy. Right? So that's the only way, just because anatomically they are a man, they consider that they are one, but technically they are not.

Masculinity is a mentality. So if a man deals like one, then the women respond like women. So support is the way that the women are happy. If the women are happy, the men are happy, but these so-called men, their idea, if they are happy, then they are happy. So they don't actually understand that they have a relationship with the woman. Because a woman is not considered in their calculation. You know what I am saying? So that's not the solution. Does that make sense?

The only example where we see where Manu says that using physical force on a woman, is generally after repeated adultery with different people, and she is not understanding the difficulty there. And the word used is "mild." Mild means, it's the shock value, it's not the physical pain, it's the shock, emotional shock that is trying to be generated. Someone who always deals nicely and gently, if they give a slap or something, a mild slap, that will be such a shock, it doesn't have to hurt, it's just a shock. You know what I am saying?

If men get to the point where logic doesn't work, it turns into emotion, then they become physical with each other. So that's a male solution to a male problem, it has got nothing to do with women. You don't solve emotional problems with women with physical force. It's only solved by humility. And if they don't agree with that, means, they don't agree with shastra. Means, they don't know what they are talking about. And I don't care who it is it says so. You know what I am saying? Just because they feel like it, their testosterone is happening, it doesn't in any way, shape or form make them right.

Krishna never deals roughly with any of his women. He is a man. Women deal roughly with other women. So if you deal emotionally roughly with women, that's called a woman, not a man. We are talking science here, we are not talking sentiment. Shastra doesn't care for sentiment. Shastra deals with what's factual how God created it. You believe it or not, and then get around with the other men and, 'Yeah, we are not getting put down this time," it's a bunch of women sitting around, saying these things, like that. No one can defend themselves for this mentality.

But shastra does say that the husband can mildly beat the wife, but it's for shock value, it's not for physical pain. But if the man really knows what he is doing, generally he never has to use it. You know what I am saying? It wouldn't be something that's regularly used. That means, the man has no idea what he is doing, like that.

Mataji: So the man who was saying this was saying that actually he is speaking on the basis of a woman having told him that actually sometimes it would do so much good for them to get a slap.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Check the varna of the woman. You know, then... Okay, that's there, and is she right wing or left wing? And then, where is she gonna take that slap? In the bed or into intelligent conversation? You know what I am saying? So you have to know how to interpret also what's being said. And, the woman who says it, this is when she is cool, but if she was in that same situation, emotional and she got the slap, would she have appreciated it? What women say when their head is clear does not necessarily match with what they do when their head is not clear. And, even if the woman felt that by getting a slap it would work for her, that's from the man that she has full trust in and knows has full affection. Not a husband that says, "I either beat you or divorce you." You know what I am saying? So you have to be able to apply it into its actual emotional situation.

And if you recognize here is, a woman is talking about a different woman, not herself. So, "Great, another woman gets a slap, hey, what do I care? That's what she deserves." But slap is not beating. You know what I am saying? Slap is a thing just to create shock. If they are gonna use beyond that, it's still just basically buffeting around, but it's just that the mentality is so distorted that you have to do something to bring them to understand that you are serious. Does that make sense?

So the point is is if you follow the other things that we've discussed previous to this, generally one wouldn't have to use this. You know, there is families in India, live their whole life together, raise tons of kids, deal with the huge family and money and everything and nobody gets a slap. So those are just standard families. Common street people, yeah, you do see it.

[Laughter] Once I saw, I was coming into... I think it was in Vrindavan, in the Goshala, and there was this kind-of like a very young man and a young woman, you know, the guy was dealing with the cows or something, outside. And this woman was yelling and screaming and coming up and beating him, and he was pushing her away, and there was a whole big scene. Right? So she was beating him and it was going both ways. So I went up to the guy and said, "Hey, this is India, you can't deal with the women like this." And then someone else came up to me and said, "Psst. It's his wife." [Laughter] And I was like, "Okay," just kept walking. [Laughter]

So in common people, they are rough, but it's rough both ways. He has got a good slap, she has got a good wrist when it comes to plates. But cultured families, they don't use this, they don't have to use it, they are cultured, things work. Only people who are uncultured and don't know how to apply this science, these things happen. Does that make sense? So as long as those persons identify, "Yes, we are low class," hey, go ahead. Then we have nothing to say.

Prabhu: Sometimes the wife finds something in the husband's behavior that she really hates it in her father, and it disturbs the relationship.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Don't do it.

Prabhu: The problem is that generally the husband does something and only after does he find out that it was something wrong, and actually the wife isn't necessarily aware that she is comparing the husband to the father.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, but then once you find out, then you make the adjustment. So as long as the problem is not that you look like her father, and she doesn't like that... [Laughter] Then you got a problem. Yeah, then you try plastic surgery. [Laughter] But otherwise...

Prabhu: There are unlimited varieties, because it may be unlimited things that the girls didn't like in their father.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Welcome to the real world. [Laughter] That's why grihasthas are considered mature, responsible adults, because they've woken up to the reality of what's going on. Brahmacharis have no idea, they are just carefree, just do their service, do what they are told, take prasada and fight over who sleeps on which stair, or... You know, like that. "Who used up all the hot water?" You know, and that's it, rough life. Rough means, getting married.

Prabhu: So once it happened, then what can be done?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Leave it. I said, adjust it. You know, you pick your nose, her father picked his nose, stop picking your nose! [Laughter] Just stop doing it.

Prabhu: I would like to turn to child raising, if you don't mind. So you mentioned how much the parents have effect on the child. And generally the teacher comes into the equation when the child is 5, but by that time so many things have happened to the child and so many things have effect on the child, so how much can a teacher actually correct the things or like change the direction of the things that were there?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Five, see the thing is is, five, why five is special. Because at five the kid can learn a whole new culture, language, lifestyle, food, everything. Not that they are happy about it, it's just you can do it. It means, they are used to something, so they are attached to it, but basically after three weeks they forget. Like the kids don't like the diet of the school, that only goes on for three weeks, then they are quite hungry and then they will start to eat. So like that, they adjust. Six, they start analyzing and figuring out which things they really like and don't. By seven they kind-of already have their specific likes and dislikes. Eight, they are open to things again, also adjustment, they are quite pleasant, but still they have what they like and don't like, they are more attached than they would be at five or six. But nine then, if they don't wanna do it, then you can't do much about it. Right? Does that make sense? So like that, it continues, each year has its specialty. So, you just have to wait. Means, ten, okay, then they are really good, they work with the adults very well. So you can get quite far, but it's still, it's only one year until eleven. And then at eleven that special teenage sense of intellectual prowess arises in their heart and their inability to actually be sensitive to others around them. But it's not, it's starting, 13 is where you see it very nicely. 12 is also quite pleasant. 14 is also, their brain starts to work, means, the actual brain, not what they think is brain. 15 then, that's the peak of punkness. [Laughter]

Translator: What's punk... Punkness?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes. It's called the punkdom. Because they are actually the eldest, or the oldest kid, because at 16 they actually become adult. So 15-year old is the biggest kid, and the 16-year-old is the youngest adult. 15-year olds always look back or down on the other ages, so they identify with the other kids, but they are the biggest of the kids. 16-year-old is the youngest adult, so they look at the adults, not so much the kids. So basically you can see is that even years are more smooth, the odd years are more odd. Right? So that's why 5 is a really good time, you can do something, but the later it goes then the more difficult it is. You know what I am saying? So it does work, it's not a problem, if the parents know how to raise the kid, then it works nicely, but the kid will always have the faults of their parents. It's just the way it is.

Prabhu: Can the parents do incorrigible mistakes in the first 5 years, or anything can be corrected?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Can they do, oh, un-correctable mistakes? Un-correctable, I mean, things that are very hard to correct is if they don't give them a sense of right and wrong, there is no concept of authority, there is no concept of how to actually interact with others, the child feels insecure and hasn't got enough support from the parents, the child hasn't experienced affection, the parents never answered their questions, like that, those will cause more problems, because if those are in place, then the teacher actually has something serious to work with. If that's not there, then the teacher has to create it, but it takes a long time, it's much more difficult. They can be done, but that means then the parents have to allow the teacher to do it. And by the tree and apple analogy, if the kid is bad, generally the parents are, so they won't let you to do anything with the kid anyway.

Prabhu: The things you have mentioned, Maharaja, don't seem to be things that any parent couldn't teach their children.

HH BVPS Maharaja: No, anybody can teach. Anybody, doesn't matter what varna, ashrama, nothing, position, doesn't matter anything. That's the natural thing that would be... That's parenthood. Of course, nowadays it's more popular to leave the kid with daycare and go to the spa. But any parent could teach that. I guess, what we should have said, is in the application of that analogy is that the tree is not very far from the fallen apple. [Laughter] At least that's how teachers perceive of it.

Mataji: What's the best thing to do for parents who want to give their child to Gurukula which are trusted? Go on a journey for one month to get the child is able to get adjusted to the new situation and get them [indistinct 46:20] with this problem? And second, if the child doesn't see that the parents are supporting him in that hardship of getting used to the Gurukula [indistinct 46:33] by the parents.

HH BVPS Maharaja: If the school is running properly, kids will adjust. The modern scenario is, parents can't adjust. In the Vedic concept it was mother, father and teacher were the important authorities of the child. In the modern scenario it's mother or father depending upon who has got custody. Teacher doesn't even come into the picture, they are kind-of like a hired servant. So kids will adjust, parents, they are the ones with the problems, not that the kid won't have a difficulty, but they will adjust. So since the children... The parents perceiving any difficulty for the child in adjusting they can't tolerate, therefore the best thing is that they day-school at least for 6 months. You know what I am saying? But the main principle is the parent's value. Like you take in this country. Without even thinking, everybody values education, that means going to the government schools. And what happens when your kid comes home and says, "I don't like it at the school and that, I don't like the people and that." What does the parent say? "Oh, poor kid, I'll keep you at home." No. "You have to grow up." What happens if the next day the kid comes home and "I am being bullied and everyone bothers me." Now, what do the parents do? Preach to the kid, no? Because they have faith in the system. It's just the way it is, it's life. You know, birds fly, fish swim and kids go to school. So that applies very nicely in the contemporary environment, but it's very rare you'll ever find one parent who'll apply this same principle when it comes to Vedic education. There is millions of them in India, but outside of India there is very few, because it's the Indian culture, it's a tradition. No?

Mataji: And when the child is given to the Gurukula at the age of 5, and it's a boarding school and the child spend...

HH BVPS Maharaja: The child is bored in school? [Laughter]

Mataji: I mean, Gurukula is a boarding school.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Oh, okay.

Mataji: And the child spends [indistinct 51:09] in the Gurukula and visits his parents on summer vacation, then how will the emotional relationship between the kid and the parents, and kid and his fellow pupils and teachers would be balanced, so how would the emotional relationship between kids and parents be nurtured and what will happen to that relationship?

HH BVPS Maharaja: To get the answer to that you have to understand the psychology of men and women. That's why whenever we discuss kids, we always have to come back to them. A man has a friend, and this friend, there is a particular level of their relationship, a particular level of closeness. Then the two of them part ways and one goes wherever he is going and the other one goes wherever he is going, and, yeah... And three years later these two men meet again. Exactly in the same note and tone and even words, and probably even conversations that they left, it starts at that point and just continues. Even if it's ten years or twenty years, it would be exactly the same. In other words, men, whatever relationship develops through it, just sits like that in suspended animation, until it starts again. Because the element of the masculine part, atmarama, so it's just, it can just exist, so the relationship goes into existence mode until it meets again, then it becomes dynamic.

So women, because of their dependency, as long as the relationship is being nourished, it continues, and as soon as it's not being nourished, it drops back to zero. So that means then when the two ladies meet again, if the mood and situation was nice, that initial moment was positive, then it could very easily move very quickly back to where it was when they met three years ago. But if one of them makes a mistake, it can completely jeopardize the relationship. Does that make sense? So now, do you have your answer?

Mataji: Yeah.

In other words, if it's a boy, don't worry about it. This concept that unless you constantly nourish the relationship won't be there is a feminine concept, boys don't work like that at all. And if it's a girl, then they day-school, so you see them every day anyway. Does that make sense? So it's not a problem. Does that make sense? That's why, okay, they haven't seen the kid for a while, and the kid comes in, but now he is older, so he doesn't relate to the mother in the same immature way. So that first moment if he doesn't act, now he is a 7-year old and he doesn't act like a 5-year old, then immediately the mother thinks, "Oh, he's changed and everything is different, and where is my relationship?" and becomes insecure. While if she would just be comfortable that now he is a 7-year old and now relate with him that way, everything would be fine. You know what I am saying? Okay? Yes.

Mataji: I would like ask you to describe the younger ages, as you did describe the older ages with Caitanya Prabhu, because sometimes there is the phenomena that...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Those weren't in Hungarian?

Translator: You spoke from 5 up, and she means from 5 down...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Oh, okay, because over-ages is 16+ That's adult education, I didn't talk about that.

Mataji: So sometimes the kids go to the nursery and then there is the idea that other kids are... "Your kid is spoiling my kid" or "Your kid doesn't give the games to my kid " and this is because of the parents, or "The nursery spoiled by kid" but if they would understand that actually the child is only engaged when whatever the parent does these kind-of things from up, then it's easier to understand it from there. So could you say something about ages from 5 below, how to understand it psychologically?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Wouldn't be able to say so much, like that, because generally we've always dealt with 5 and above. But main thing is is that if one deals with each individual in a... How you say? According to their nature, then it will work. Kids are kids, they always respond with proper dealings. So these traditional ways of dealing always work on kids. As they grow up, then they start to work less and less. It's just like an adult, if, let's say if you use... Means, every culture has their kind-of like bodily gestures that mean things, right? So an adult only understands the gestures from their community. So therefore if you use the Indian gestures on them, they won't understand. But little kids, no matter what their background, they all understand the Indian gestures. It's because...

Yeah, so therefore if one follows these principles, they'll always work on the kids, in other words you are giving the proper support and attention, then it will work. Problem is is, nursery schools on most instances are a business. So as many kids as they can get as better for business. But then the problem is is, how do you individually deal with each kid? You know what I am saying? So unless you are dealing with somebody who likes kids and gets on well with kids, then only they can run a nursery school properly. Does that make sense? Means in.. Does that make sense? So, yeah, like that. But basically from two you can explain things to them, they basically understand, though there is not great communication going on. Three, you can actually have proper conversations, and so they are very questioning, but still very outgoing. But from four they can be a little bit more contemplative and more considerate of others and all that, so at that time those things can be nicely taught. You've been telling them before, but that's the time when they actually learn it. And then from five they are open for new experiences. That much I can tell you. But more than that I can's say. You just have to know the cycle, because basically up to 24 it works in 3-year cycles. There is three groups at three years each. So the same principle will be there in small kids, but you can't work on three-year cycles, it has to be much shorter. So they'll probably work in months, month cycles, so that then they would observe. Okay?

Prabhu: In the situation when there is no education of gurukula, is the homeschooling good for training the devotees?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, in countries where it's allowed by the government many devotees use it and they are quite happy with it. I think that devotee, I mean, he now works in England, he started his PhD at 12 years, no, excuse me, went to university at 12. He was homeschooled. Like that, so some get good results from it.

Prabhu: But the problem... you said that father, mother and teacher, and in this case father and mother are the teacher, [indistinct 01:05:00] some consideration?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, it's a home environment. Means, for girls there is no problem. Means, girls always, they learn in the home. The tendency is, boys don't learn in the home. So you have to be able to generate that kind of environment. But girls are always conscious, so the boys tend to be unconscious, you have to wake them up. That's why the scriptures address the men. Because if they do it, the women will follow it. You know what I am saying? The problem is not waking up the women, the problem is waking up the men. So women only really have problems if the men, all the men they associate with are still asleep. You know what I am saying? So therefore it's not as easy, means, for girls it's fine, but for boys it's not as easy, but it can be done. The weakness won't be necessarily in the academics, the weakness will be in being conscious.

Translator: In being conscious?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, means, the weakness won't be in academics, it will be in character.

When we say "teacher" that means teacher that can actually train. In other words, you have the mother and father. So then for the child then the father is considered very respectable, but the difficulty the mother goes through in raising the child is greater, so from that consideration even the respect of the mother is ten times more than that. So for father it's authority, but for mother it's that sacrifice. So a teacher who teaches you ordinary subjects, just language or some math or like this, is 1/10th of the father in respect, means they are dealt with as teacher, but that commitment to them is 1/10th of that would be of the father. But that teacher who teaches you actually the culture and the philosophy, so that you can practice it in your life, they are considered 10 times more respectable than the father. Does that make sense? So you also have to know what the Vedas mean by "teacher". Does that make sense?

Prabhu: So something which is more like practical [indistinct 01:08:50] for them?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Something that develops the culture and allows you to understand and apply the academics, that's considered. So in other words, the teacher that can cultivate and develop your actual life values, that's technically what's meant by teacher, though all teachers are respected. Does that make sense? But someone who can do that besides being respected is revered. You know, the guy on the horse who went around saving British [indistinct 01:09:58] There is probably 53 different words for peppers [Laughter] Just depends what your values are. It's like I think in Ireland, I guess in Gaelic or that, there is something like 50 different words for kinds of green. Because I guess the time of the year and the crop, and there is all different, different greens. Or like in Mexico there is 17 different kinds of chilies. So if you think you guys are nuts about chilies, meet the Mexicans. [Laughter]

Prabhu: We have lots of words for horses.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Horses? Okay. Big horse, a little less than big horse, a little less than that big horse... [Laughter]

Prabhu: They are for the colors.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Oh, okay. I guess if the culture is based on a community that spent basically their whole life on horse, and you even prepared dinner by putting it under your saddle and riding around for the day, then probably, yeah, horses would be... Right?

Mataji: So when the child goes to kinder garden or pre-school, then it is said that actually it's not the quantity of time spent with the child, but the quality of this time with the child that counts. But if the time spent with the child falls to the same period when you have to do your washing, cleaning, cooking and other things, then how can you make that time a quality time, being with the child?

HH BVPS Maharaja: They are around, and so then any time that they need a little attention, you give it, then you go back. Clothes go in a bucket with some soap, then they sit, while they are sitting you do something else. Like that. If you are washing the clothes, kid needs some attention, wash your hands, give the attention, go back, wash the clothes. Otherwise, if every day was the same it would get boring, right? So it's much more exiting if you have to wash clothes and take care of the kid. Right? Otherwise, it gets really boring.

Mataji: And it is actually rightly stated thing to say that the length of time doesn't matter? Or the quantity, just the quality?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Length of time? Meaning?

Mataji: Spent with the child.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Length, it's... Of course, quality is there, but for under the age of 5 the maximum amount of time of quality is important. Means, somebody should be doing it, either the mother or the father or another kid or a friend, or a teacher, somebody has got to be with the kid. You know what I am saying?

Mataji: So it doesn't necessarily have to be parent?

HH BVPS Maharaja: No. It can be whoever can do it. That's the point. Point is is that up to the age of five kids just get energy put in. You are not expecting anything back. Okay, maybe a cute smile or something, but that's about it. But from the age of 5, then you can expect them to start producing something. They use their brain to learn their classes, or start to actually do something. You know, you are washing pots, they actually start to help washing pots. But of course, it's according to their ability, their maturity. But it's not they are just bystanders any more, or the center of attention. Now they are part of the scene and now they are learning. Means, in other words, from five now they are learning to do what you do. To apply the same values and culture and practices. Before that, it's not as much, it's not dynamic, basically they just shouldn't do something wrong. In other words, the kid is behaving normal, that's fine, it's they shouldn't be doing something wrong, but from the age of 5 then now they should start learning what's the positive things to do. I mean, if they are interested before that, fine, but if not, you don't worry about it. You know what I am saying? Is that okay?

Prabhu: I would like to ask that if the boy grows up, then what are his duties towards his parents?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Depends on whether he is going to remain a brahmachari his whole life or he is gonna get married. In any case then respect is always due, but if he is getting married, then he should actually be part of helping them and stuff like that, as long as they are favorable, means favorable to his help.

Translator: Favorable means...?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Favorable means, they are comfortable with him helping, but that's once he is grown up and married. Before that they are a student. So they respect the parents, but their main thing is learning. Does that make sense? So if they are living at the parent's house, so they have to follow the parents' rules, but when they get married, it's their house, it's their rules and they can take care of the parents in that environment. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: If the boy becomes a brahmachari, then how to apply the principle that a woman should never be left without someone taking care? Let's say, the father passed away and there is only the mother, and the son becomes a brahmachari?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Depends, if the mother is comfortable with that, but generally a boy in that situation wouldn't remain a brahmachari. He'd generally take care of the mother, but if the mother is favorable, then, I mean, if the mother is favorable. Mother... Means, okay, let's try this again. If you are a devotee, she is not favorable of Krishna consciousness and wouldn't let you practice then better you practice Krishna consciousness and be a brahmachari. Or, the mother prefers that you are a brahmachari, because she sees it's a better thing and she can take care of herself. Or, the situation is it's favorable, she herself is Krishna conscious, so therefore after basic training and all that then the boy would take care of the mother. Does that make sense? But still he has to get trained.

Prabhu: Can I ask about adults?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Adults? How big are the adult? What color? There is so many words for different colors.

Prabhu: For adults between 20 and 30, how do the 3-year cycles apply for women and men, and what are the similarities in the way of thought and what are the differences?

HH BVPS Maharaja: It works the same for men and women. But from 25 it starts in 5-year cycles. Like that. So you have 16 to 18, then 19 to 21, 21 to 24. Then after that it will be 25 to 29, it goes in 5-year cycles. And that seems to function up to about 50, then it starts in 10-year cycles. And then after that you go back to Godhead, so we don't worry about the cycles then. [Laughter] Right?

So, means, 16 to 18 will be like 5 to 7, 19 to 21 will be like 8 to 10 and 22 to 24 will be like 13 to 15. In other words, the first one that you go is less, but there is no real direction. The middle one is proper focus, proper balance, you can absorb the maximum amount of training without much effort. And then the 3rd one, then the ego comes up, so if you know how to deal with the egos, then it works, but basically they can apply what they've learned, but it's harder to learn new material. Means, facts and figures you can learn, but as far as character, not much more. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: And then above 25?

HH BVPS Maharaja: That I am not sure. Because Gurukula is 5 to 25, so that's the [01:25:08] that we focus the most. But generally at 30 then the punk kid figures out that what their parents were talking about was okay. [Laughter] I do not know if you have it here. I mean, in America they call it "thirty over the hill." Because anyone below 30 thinks anyone over 30 is like a pre-historic or something. You know, it's like, anyone over 30 was around when Chinghiz Khan came or something. I mean, you remember what colors horses were those days? [Laughter] Yes?

Prabhu: Everybody likes to receive attention, but psychologically or energetically what is happening when we are receiving so much attention?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Interesting question. That depends on the individual, means, how you are going to interpret that attention? But generally attention is going to be the basis for a response. Also, depends on what kind of attention, like if somebody is running after you with a large spoon in their hand, it's definitely attention... [Laughter] So in other words, attention just simply means that... Attention is an element of interaction, so depending upon the degree of attention will generally will be the intensity of the interaction, I mean, the experience of the interaction. But depending upon the actual motive behind the activity, what result is desired from that attention, then you will respond, you will either categorize it as a good or bad interaction. But any interaction will create an impression, which will then influence future endeavors or interpretations of endeavor. Does that make sense?

Oh, you had something. Oh, okay. All the cooks now. Oh, you don't have your apron on. You get noticed more if you hold up a spoon. [Laughter] Like that.

Prabhu: We have heard that in grihastha ashrama it's important that we learn to love at least one person. And can we say that the same principles or processes apply when we want to focus our love on Krishna, in other words, that attraction, that attachment and being considerate, these things?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, same thing. Means, that formula, that's quoted by Rupa Goswami, so it's specifically for use in spiritual relationship with Krishna, but it still works in the reflection. Does that make sense? Because the rules are the same, just it's... It should be it's Krishna. You know what I am saying? But here it's not. There their lover is Krishna, their child is Krishna, their husband is Krishna. Here it's ourselves and the relationships are ourselves and that, the other relationships is ourselves. You know what I am saying? So that's the problem, we take out Krishna, we put in ourselves. [Laughter] But the system works the same, that's the point. Is that okay?

Prabhu: [In Hungarian]

Translator: [Indistinct 01:35:53] the question one time, and then he says, "No" and then I think what he said and "no," and I can't translate it.

HH BVPS Maharaja: [Laughter] But somebody understood it?

Prabhu: It's sort of like a if a personality comes to, has an experience of... One personality comes to a group of personalities, like internally it's a sort of thing like the, he sort of feels the demigods or so inside... Then I don't understand [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: No, let's just try something. Means that a living entity is made up of a lot of impressions, and these impressions are not just from this life, so what we are today is a culmination of previous impressions, both this life, previous lives. The situations that we are in now are situations that are generated from previous actions. So there may be a variety of kinds of feelings, or even identities that are based on "I can relate to this,' or "I can relate to that," or... Like that. So there may be a variety of manifestations, you know, we see somebody and in that there is something that we can identity with, whether it's in the present or in the past. So that's just generated from, these impressions have then created values. And value is what you actually endeavor for. So that's one, so that's what one will spot in others, and that will generate within oneself a particular kind-of identity. Besides that is, what we are working on is, the body is actually dead matter. So it's being actually operated by higher authorities, so it's the potencies of the higher authorities that make it function. And the living entity... How you say? But it's based on the desire of the living entity. So depending upon what potency will be doing what at what time, that's depending upon one's, the individual's, desire. So sometimes one can appreciate that these potencies are coming from different places and operated by different persons. So in this way then you'd have a variety of elements that appear as personality, manifesting at different times. In that way you would have a variety of like personal identity that's happening at different times. You also have the element that nature is there, but we may be unaware of it, and sometimes certain situations then make it clear actually what our identity is. You know, it's like a moment of clarity or something. So we can get a glimpse of actually what's going on. Does that make sense? Any of those three do anything?

Prabhu: Yeah, it made sense.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah? Okay.

Translator: [indistinct 01:40:48]

HH BVPS Maharaja: You just needed a key.

Prabhu: You mentioned in an earlier class, Maharaja, that in the first ten years we don't understand anything, in the second 10 years we start asking questions, and in the 3rd 10 years things become a habit. If you could explain that?

HH BVPS Maharaja: I don't remember anything about 10 years. You have the learning process, which is sravana, manana and nididhyasana. So sravana means, we are hearing, we are absorbing, like that. Manana means, we are contemplating what we learned and now applying it. Nididhyasana means realization that's come from that contemplation and practice. It's based on what we heard that we value, that we follow as natural habit. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: So then may I ask what is steady devotional service, what does it mean and what are the processes that [indistinct 01:43:19] be attained?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Steady devotional service, steady means where the anarthas are basically reduced to only 40 percent. So in other words when it's, when anarthas are more than the good qualities, then the devotional service will be unsteady, but by continual practice in the association of devotees then the anarthas become less than the good qualities, so then you become fixed. That's nishtha. Then by practicing in that, then one gets a taste. When one comes to ruchi, then the whole process becomes very dynamic. Okay? That's why like you see that honoring prasada happens with such great focus and affection, because you have come to the taste, or platform of ruchi. Unfortunately, many of our other practices in Krishna consciousness may be lagging very far behind, but if we are persistent then one day then all our other chanting or other services then will catch up with the dynamic pace of the honoring of prasada. [Laughter]

Prabhu: So the Bhagavatam states that when one comes to the level of nishtha, then transcendental knowledge is revealed to him and they become sarva-jna, and then he achieves all mystic perfections, and then he reaches Brahman. And what kind of obstacles are there until the living entity reaches the lotus feet of Radhe-Shyama?

HH BVPS Maharaja: After that? [Indistinct 01:47:00] from that point?

Prabhu: Not after, meanwhile, from nishtha above.

HH BVPS Maharaja: That's what we were saying. From that point till... He was saying from what the Bhagavatam is talking about to there, till prema.

Translator: The Bhagavatam is talking about what?

HH BVPS Maharaja: He was talking about nishtha, so he is talking about, so between that point of nishtha that he described, and prema. Okay. See, this platform of nishtha also has two points, because anartha-nivritti has two points. In other words, there is the more general, that means that in our practice we become steady in our sadhana bhakti. But we are still in the conditioned state. The other one what they mean is being referred to is when one is, anartha-nivritti means, you are free from the conditioned state, and then you are fixed in your service, because then you are on the transcendental platform, means, you are liberated. Yes, brahma-bhuta. So then the main obstacles that you have to watch out for is "I am advanced," and "I am a Guru of devotees." Does that make sense? That's what will stop you from getting from bhava to prema.

Prabhu: There is a division of sva-nistha, pari-nishtha and nirapeksha, is this the nirapeksha?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, because... Your parinishtha, that means what we normally call as nishtha, but that next one, that means brahma-bhuta. First one, basically, kind-of like we are fixed in our own thing.

Prabhu: In the 4th verse of Manah-siksha we learn that one shouldn't be attached to impersonal liberation or the worship of Lord Narayana. So does that mean that as one advances these things are there as kind-of like temptation or something?

HH BVPS Maharaja: They are not there as a temptation. They are just, where you wanna go? You know what I am saying? It's just like, we are sitting here, and we wanna go to Budapest, we have to get to the bus station. So we are just focused on getting to the bus station. But once you get to the bus station, you have to make sure you get on the right bus. I mean, a "B" and a "D" are very similar, just that little line in the middle. Right? Does that make sense?

Prabhu: I don't know if this is a bonafide story, I've only heard it once, but I heard that when Gopa Kumara reached the Brahman platform, then actually his spiritual master had to help him to get out of there and move on.

HH BVPS Maharaja: I don't remember. Read the book, you will find out. No, he was just there, and so then he saw the Lord there, but there the Lord manifest there in a way for those in the Brahman, because they want to be part of that Brahman. So when you meditate upon the Lord, you get absorbed into the Lord. So that would be bewildering. So then he was told, "The place for you is Vaikuntha." So then he continued on, like that.

Prabhu: In the 11th canto when Krishna is teaching Uddhava, then the 24 gurus, and there is the story where the avadhuta is being... After the story of the Avadhuta, Uddhava is being told by Krishna that, "You should see every activity in Me." And is it the same thing as when mother Yashoda sees the universal form in Krishna's mouth?

HH BVPS Maharaja: No. Means, he is talking about how one gets out of the material world, what's the technicalities. So therefore you see every potency in connection, in Krishna. Right? So that means, whatever is there, whatever is the point of it, that's Krishna. We sit under this tree for the shade, the atmosphere created by the tree, that's Krishna. So that potency of Krishna being able to give shelter and that, that's been given to the tree. So that way then you are always with Krishna. Because everything that you are dealing with you see is in the potency of Krishna. But once you are in that rasa with Krishna, then these elements... You see everything, it reminds you of Krishna, that's called uddipana. But it reminds you of the Lord Himself. So you use even the Brahman understanding of the relationships of the energies as uddipana to remember Krishna. So you use the Brahman platform to get to the Bhagavan platform. But once you are on the Bhagavan platform, then the introduction of the Brahman platform doesn't have any meaning. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: Is that's why it's there in the purport that as long as someone starts to practice this kind-of vision, one cannot give up the material world?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Until one starts to...?

Prabhu: ... see the energy or the activity in connection to Krishna. Until you see like that...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Until you see like that, you can't get out of the material world? Basically. Because otherwise you are seeing... Material existence, means, the material manifestation is Krishna's potency, so as long as you don't see it as Krishna's potency, that's called the material world. You are seeing it as Krishna's potency, means, you are not in the material world.

Translator: If you are not seeing?

HH BVPS Maharaja: If you are seeing everything as Krishna's potency then you are not in the material world. Do you understand? That's spiritual quantum physics. Everybody else sees you walking here, but you are not in the material world. Do you understand? Because material world is a concept, it's not a reality. Material, the manifestation of inferior Brahman is what we see here, but it's still Krishna's potency. So when we see it without Krishna, that's called maya. But if we see it in relationship to Krishna, that's Brahman. So one is transcendental.

Prabhu: So is that why when Gopa Kumara was at the feet of Govardhana Hill and he was speaking to the brahmana about how he reached the spiritual world, and then at one point he said, "And then Krishna left Vrindavana," and then the brahmana said, "And did you go after Him?" And then he said, "I'm always with Krishna, don't you understand?"

HH BVPS Maharaja: Good chance. [Laughter] If he has read that part of the book, try reading the other part.

Prabhu: Unfortunately I can only read whatever is in Hungarian.

HH BVPS Maharaja: I see.

Prabhu: How can we check whether or not we are advancing in spiritual life?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Generally it's jnana and vairagya, means our understanding is deepening and our detachment from the material endeavor is lessening. And then naturally our attachment to Krishna. Does that make sense? But the two go together. You can't be fully attached to Krishna and fully attached to material world. Means, you have a certain amount of space, so the more Krishna is on there, the more material world is less on there. So that's how you can look at if the knowledge, the understanding is increasing and the detachment is increasing. Means, in real, so that means it must be being replaced with Krishna consciousness. Does that make sense? Like that, because that's the practical point. Is that okay?

Prabhu: So when they fall down from the spiritual world, then they fall to the position of Brahma. And then at the end of the life of Brahma, Brahma, the living entity either goes back to the spiritual world or decides to remain in the material world. But during the life of Brahma so many living entities achieve perfection and go back to the spiritual world, but only one soul can fall down to become Brahma. So isn't there a danger of the material world becoming empty?

HH BVPS Maharaja: There is a lot of material worlds, they are unlimitedly expanding, so there is unlimited opportunity to come here. Don't worry. [Laughter] And even if it did become empty, would that be a problem?

Prabhu: Oh, no. [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: You know, then we could fill it up with something else, you know, like jam or something. [Laughter] Like those sweets, outside inside [indistinct 02:05:40] Okay, something else? Oh, you had a question.

Prabhu: It is a more mundane question about the relationship between husband and wife. There is a saying that three things, although they are allowed, there is no significance of them, and that's [indistinct 02:07:08], dog's barking and the argument between husband and wife. And if we say that these things are insignificant, but the divorce rates are not showing that actually it's so insignificant. So that means that there will always be arguments, but in the best case no divorce?

HH BVPS Maharaja: What is an argument? Because if it's operated properly, the husband won't generate the argument, argument is generated by the insecurity of the wife. So therefore whenever an argument comes up, if the husband is humble and supportive, that argument doesn't mean anything. It's just an expression of the wife's attachment, but through the medium of insecurity. Women argue because they are attached. But what's caused the insecurity, that's, it could be something you've said or done, something someone else said or done, or generated from themselves, either from hormones, or just a need of variety. Does that make sense? So if it's understood what it is and dealt with properly, it doesn't actually have any meaning. In other words, it's a symptom of the wife's attachment through which the husband can prove his attachment, that's what argument is in reality. Everything else that you know about the argument between husband and wife, that's illusion, that makes divorce. So women only argue because they are attached and they become insecure. So if the husband proves his attachment through his responses, the argument disappears, it actually strengthens the relationship. Does that make sense? Right? That's the meaning. Does that make sense? You can tell. I mean, yeah. You know what I am saying? The woman is in a mood, and let's say, someone calls on the phone, and it's more of an acquaintance. She'll be chirpy and nice and everything like that. And as soon as the conversation is over and they push the "end" button, then doom's day descends again, so that means it's not actually that real, it's a manifestation of attachment.

Prabhu: What's the difference between trust and satisfaction?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Trust is that confidence that a relationship is there. And satisfaction is the confidence in the situation you are in. Does that make sense? One is with... How you say? One is the relationship, one is the situation. You are satisfied with the house, that's the situation, or you are satisfied in the marriage, or you are satisfied with the husband or wife, that's the field, that's the situation. Trust is the dynamic element, the relationship is connected, therefore it can be operated. Does that make sense?

Translator: In Hungarian the word for "connection" and "relationship" is the same word.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Oh, okay. Well, it's not bad. Connection is relationship.

Prabhu: [Indistinct 02:13:55] the horses.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, yeah. [Laughter] Of course, the relationship with the horses. Yeah, I saw all the patriarchs in... I think it's in Budapest, all the founding fathers of the nation on all their horses, you know.

Mataji: It's called the Heroes' Square.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Heroes' Square. Is it square or round?

Mataji: No, it's square.

HH BVPS Maharaja: It's square, okay. The heroes are round. Something else?

Mataji: Philosophycal...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Philosophical.

Mataji: Can we say that [indistinct 02:15:17] preliminary of Veda in the sense that in the beginning we realize Krishna as a person, but since we don't know Him we try to see Him that He is one with creation and all the nice things, and as we advance, we will see... So the aspect of Veda becomes more prominent [indistinct 02:15:38] as a person?

HH BVPS Maharaja: See, Krishna sees everything as Him, so it's one. We see the difference. Does that make sense? So that's there. You can take it as two different persons, but the same purpose or same mood. Like that, so there is unlimited ways you can see that, because intelligence then sees the difference and sees the similarity. Just that's what intelligence does, but at the same time is, what is different, what's the same, is also related, it means, can be simultaneously the same thing. Does that make sense? So it's applied everywhere, it's not just at this part is bheda and this part is abheda.

Mataji: But one becomes more dominant?

HH BVPS Maharaja: But you could say that as you advance then your mood is more in line with Krishna's, so then the oneness is more prominent, while here we think we are separate. Right? Or we see the oneness of everything here and the potencies, so that we can get out of here and go back to the spiritual world, where you make a difference. So it can be applied, but that's the point, it's the central point, you can apply it to anything. Is that okay?

Prabhu: You spoke about how boys become men, are trained to be men by men, but we see that most of our teachers in our movement are ladies, so how will this happen? [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: You ever heard of dynamite? So, we'll move to the next question. Or, let's say, nitroglycerin, that would be the same, you shake it, it explodes. [Laughter] Anything else?

Prabhu: How can we simply accept that we made a mistake, and we would like to save the situation also? Let's say, a devotee pushes over a cup of tea, and then someone says that they are so miserable, and then he just accepts it.

HH BVPS Maharaja: So miserable? It means, that depended when you pushed over the hot cup of tea, it fell on you, or it fell on someone else?

Prabhu: It just went out.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Oh, so then why is anybody miserable, except for the person who steps in it or slips in it, or...? Or you are miserable because you lost your tea, or...?

Prabhu: Because I wasn't attentive and I pushed it over.

HH BVPS Maharaja: So then you are inattentive, why miserable? [Indistinct 02:21:05] questions here.

Translator: Push over means, it was out, right? It doesn't just mean like push it to someone...

HH BVPS Maharaja: No push over means, it would be pushed and over, so like you push something over a cliff, you know. Or it's pushed over means it's no longer up, it's...

Prabhu: But if someone says this to me, that I am miserable because I pushed the cup over, my response is, "Doesn't it happen to you?"

HH BVPS Maharaja: It works. [Laughter] They'll stop bothering you. [Laughter] I think this guy could dwell in New York. [Laughter]

Prabhu: What's the proper mentality to accept that we actually made a mistake?

HH BVPS Maharaja: No, depends... Okay. The point is is... How you say? Is cups of tea supposed to be knocked over and go accross the floor? No? So then, is it something wrong? Yeah. So therefore then you just say, "Yeah, sorry," or "Yeah, it was clumzy," or, you know, something. Right? So that way then you are dealing with your position. You know what I am saying? But it just depends upon who the other person is. You could also say, "Oh, yeah I'm sorry, knocked it over," and says, "Do you have the same problem?" [Laughter] It depends, if it's somebody senior, someone who is cultured, then you say, you take the humble position, because you, because it is wrong. And if it's some punk kid harassing you, then you tell them, hey.Then you say, "I was thinking to pour it over your head, but I thought on the floor it would be more appreciated."

Prabhu: Thank you.

Prabhu: We've been speaking about principles that apply to the relationship between men and women, so my question is, how do they apply, or do they apply to groups of people, like when there is an argument between groups of people, then it's also like one group should start to find faults in themselves and in that way settle?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Do you know mathematics? Right? Okay. You have addition, where you are putting two single numbers together. Right? So then what's multiplication? It's addition of two groups. Do you understand? So it's the same principle, it's just instead of the singular it's the multiple. Does that make sense? So the same thing applies. These principles apply to anything. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: Application in practice would mean...?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Application in practice? Means, if you have a group, you know, let's say... [Laughter] Yes.

Prabhu: Sorry.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay, you have a group of brahmacharis in one room and another group in another room. And so, they've decided, one room decides that they get the rights over the bathroom first. So then they deal badly with those in the other group. So if it's something that they've decided themselves, so then the problem also they have to work out as a group, means, they all have to acknowledge that, "Yes, we are sorry, we shouldn't have thought we were better just because we are closer to the bathroom," and all that. "All brahmacharis were created equal, have equal opportunity to the bathroom, even though we are closer." Do you understand?

Prabhu: So that would mean that just as within ourselves there is the mind and the intelligence kind-of discussing how to become humble, then it just becomes external and for people who are discussing how we have done something wrong and we should just become humble...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Right. Yeah, yeah. Because you have the same thing, you have the individual and you have a family, so one family has an attitude towards another family, or one community with another, nation with nation, planet and planet, like that, so...

Okay, we'll end here. Jaya!

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya! Samaveta-bhakta-vrinda ki jaya! Jaya Nitai-Gaura-premanande Hari Haribol!

Prabhu: Srila Bhaktividya Purna Maharaja ki jaya!

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