MAN WOMAN INTERACTION LECTURE #12 Eger, Hungary, 5th Aug 2007 Part 2
HH BVPS Maharaja: So your question.
Mataji: It’s connected to Mataji’s question on gaining trust that you mentioned, Maharaja, that one has to take risk in this, and what should it mean exactly…?
HH BVPS Maharaja: What do we mean by risk in taking…?
Mataji: What exactly does that…
HH BVPS Maharaja: Making the relationship work? Taking risk means, you are risking that you are going to try to act within that realm of trust, but maybe it won’t work. In other words, means, you are making the endeavor to make it work, but if it doesn’t work immediately, then it doesn’t matter…
Once Prabhupada commented that the microphone is a very amazing invention that requires sticking it in your mouth to make it work [Laughter] Because the devotees are always… [Microphone feedback] [Laughter]
Does that make sense? Right? It’s that one has to try. And generally what happens is is, when relationships don’t work, we tend to not want to try, because we don’t wanna get close, because you might be hurt. But if… How you say? I think there is a saying, “Nothing ventured, nothing gained,” Right? Does that make sense? So unless you try… Just like you cook, you could work it out right, it could go bad, but unless you try, you can’t end up with anything. But it’s not that one can’t express one’s fears and one’s worries, or what it is you are looking for, it should be discussed, but in a way that the other person doesn’t feel insecure. Does that make sense? Does that work?
Mataji: Yeah, I am just wondering, when it’s not that you don’t have trust, the problem is that the other person doesn’t have trust in you?
HH BVPS Maharaja: The other person doesn’t have trust in you? Then you have to find out what exactly is the point of distrust, because a behavior is only a symptom, it’s not actually the point, so what’s behind the activity that is actually the disturbing point? You know what I am saying? In other words, a disturbance, either something nice or something not nice is manifest through a medium, but the medium itself is not actually the point. If we make it the point, then we can never cross it. It’s what’s behind the point, what the point itself is expressing, that’s what’s important.
It’s just like this, let us say, husband tells the wife something confidential and it’s quite juicy. So then to impress her friends then the wife tells the friends. Right? And then for the day she is the special person, because she has got the juiciest gossip. Then as the modes of nature would have it, it gets around back to the husband. So now the husband doesn’t trust if he can tell the wife anything. Because that’s one of the duties, whatever the husband confidentially speaks to the wife, she can never speak to anybody, that’s one of the rules. it’s one of their duties, so the problem is is not that someone else has told and found out, that’s a problem, of course. But material world is full of problems. Where the trust is lost is that here is someone who is so intimate and close to you and they can’t keep a secret, so who can I keep a secret with? So the medium is through the gossip, but that’s not actually the point. They thought that you were so close that you understood what they would feel about that, so naturally since they wouldn’t want others to know, you wouldn’t want others to know. So the doubt is in the intimacy. It manifests through speaking. Does that make sense?
So whatever is the activity that has created the loss in trust, what does the activity signify to the other party? In other words, why is the activity a problem? You know what I am saying? Activity is activity. Depending on your perspective it’s good or bad. So you have to find out what is actually the perspective, right? Then you can find out what it is that you are having to deal with to reestablish the trust. So the problem is not, “Oh, I’m sorry I told someone, that I am sorry that something that was so important to you and meant so much to you, that I didn’t appreciate that feeling and therefore dealt with that lightly.” No? That’s their point. Otherwise you could go on arguing till the cows come home about the activity that caused the problem. You can go on arguing forever. Never heard that one? Does that make sense? That’s an interesting point though, arguing till the cows come home. Cows come home every evening. So that meant, previously, if there was an argument for the full day, that was considered catastrophic. But once the cows came home, you’d stop arguing. [Laughter] Does that make sense? Yeah? Okay.
Mataji: So in the same [indistinct 10:31] trust, what happens if this same situation is used amongst friends… That what would be the confidential information of my friend to her party, who happens to be an authority at the same time?
HH BVPS Maharaja: So who is the problem with, the authority or the friend?
Mataji: The friend.
HH BVPS Maharaja: The friend, not your authority. See, the authority, you just tell them the person is lying. In other words, you write off the friend. But if the point is is the friend, then you just ask why… Because you are not dealing in the subtleties that you are dealing in man-woman relationship. You are dealing with like equalness. So basically you just have to let them know that that kind of behavior is very distressing. Like that, and then you just be careful what you say. And if you see with time that things are okay, then you can start speaking again like that, but if not, then you just know, this person is not capable of that deep of a relationship. Because in friendship there is four kinds, those senior to us, those junior to us, those equal to us and intimate. So intimate could be someone senior, someone equal, someone junior. So if they can’t be intimate, then you just go back into the other forms of friendship. Just senior, equal or junior. Okay?
Mataji: Are there such problems which completely prevent the relationship from functioning, whether it’s husband and wife relationship or friendship relationship? So are there problems which are too serious to let the relationship continue?
HH BVPS Maharaja: That’s individual. Otherwise, basically anyone can make anything work. It’s just a matter of whether the individuals are willing to make it work. Like that. That’s the thing. So one has to be aware of what it is that made it not work and then try to work that part out. So it’s not the activity, it’s what the activity represents. Does that make sense? But one has to figure that out.
Mataji: My experience is that when I trust someone, somehow later it will turn out that that trust was… That person wasn’t worth the offered trust, and on the one hand it’s good because it produces my attachment to social interaction, but on the other hand… Is it like the way things are, or it’s just my background that it always turns out like that, that my trust is betrayed?
HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, generally in the material world you see, anything good goes bad and anything bad goes good. But if you’ve never trusted, how can you ever say that you’ve ever lived? So if you’ve lived, then you can say, “Material world doesn’t work.” Then you can move on. But if you’ve never trusted, then you’ve never lived, so you can never really make that statement.
Doesn’t mean it hurts any less, but then you just know up to what degree trust can be there. Because basically full, absolute trust is only worth Krishna and His associates, because everybody else is burdened to some degree with their material conditioning.
So the trick is to learn who can be trusted with what. And instead of one person, all trust can be there, means, you might have many people where different aspects of trust you deal. Does that make sense? So you just have to learn who can be trusted with what. Does that make sense? That makes it easier. But if you don’t trust, you can’t have a relationship. You can only sit on the floor because you trust it won’t fall through. Right? Does that make sense? Yeah.
You had something?
Mataji: I thought that probably it wasn’t that important.
HH BVPS Maharaja: Oh, okay.
Prabhu: In a relationship which is falling apart the husband is trying to make steps to keep that relationship, but his wife… Despite all his efforts the trust of the wife still doesn’t [indistinct 19:26]
Prabhu: And also he made the point that she is repulsive.
HH BVPS Maharaja: Repulsive?
Prabhu: Yes, she is moving back [indistinct 19:34] she is moving back.
HH BVPS Maharaja: That would mean, there is something he has done that has upset her. And until that’s worked out, then they won’t move forward. So you’d have to somehow or another sincerely impress her that you mean to correct whatever was wrong. Right? And then be willing to put in the effort, however long it takes to correct it. Does that make sense? Like that. But the point is, if there is repulsion, means, something has gone wrong, so you have to figure out what it is.
Prabhu: So the husband can’t say that I’ve tried once, five times, ten times and it doesn’t work, I won’t try anymore?
HH BVPS Maharaja: Not really, because some things might take years to work out. Depends how many years of improper behavior has created this repulsion. If he has behaved badly for three years, and now she has become upset, it may take three years to straighten it out. Newton’s third law. [Laughter]
Prabhu: So does that mean that once someone enters the grihastha ashrama, that becomes the job, the main task, not that I become first… Not that one is book distributor, longer of this, longer of that, but simply to make this relationship work?
HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, the spiritual service must remain, it’s the quality of interaction, not quantity. Women are worried about quality, not quantity. Of course, the best is quality in quantity, but quantity that has no quality – better no interaction. Does that make sense? So the point is is, it’s when one is still doing one’s… Means, like this. Okay, let us say, he is a good book distributor. The wife is marrying him because he is a good book distributor. Each woman feels that her husband is unique in some way. You’ve ever see two ladies wearing exactly the same saree? [Laughter] Never. And if it ever did happen, you’d see either one of them or both of them leave the room and come back wearing something else. [Laughter] Right? You’d walk into the room with your white kurta and white dhoti, and someone else walks in with white kurta and white dhoti, it works. Of course, you got to stick in buttons. [Laughter]
Translator: The buttons for officials? [Laughter]
HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah. But now, if one of the punk brahmacharis walked in wearing the same thing, there might be trouble. Right? Do you understand?’
So, each woman has to feel her husband is unique. So therefore if he is a book distributor, she wants him to remain one. So now it’s up to his intelligence to work out how he is supposed to be the big book distributor, get all the different things that she wants done in a day, and at the same time spend 24/7 with her. [Laughter] So he has got [25:55]. In other words, how many husbands have heard the wife say, “Oh, you never do anything.” Anyone has heard? [Laughter] Others are just embarrassed? Okay, so that means, what it is you used to do, you are not doing anymore. That’s one aspect. Another aspect, it means, you are not taking the forward role in interacting with the wife. She always has to ask you how is the food, or how does she look, or how is the saree, whether you like the new perfume or… She always has to start, so therefore you never do anything. Men pride themselves in being aggressive, so the women expect them to be pleasantly aggressive. And if you are not, you are doing nothing. Does that make sense? Yeah?
Mataji: The question relates to the topic of trust and secrecy again. So it’s already said that the wife’s duty is not to tell confidential things about her husband, or things that her husband told her confidentially, but what happens if the wife hears from the 3rd person something kind-of confidential about her husband, for example that in connection with the family of the husband, the husband didn’t reveal everything to her, so she hears some information about her husband that he didn’t tell her before, and then…
HH BVPS Maharaja: From her own… Means, he has heard from some third party about the husband?
Translator: From someone that her husband failed to tell her.
HH BVPS Maharaja: Failed to tell her? Then ask.
Mataji: [indistinct 29:30] situation, for example, the wife hears from third person that the lady whom the husband called his stepmother is not his stepmother, and where are the limits, can she go and investigate the question to see whether the lady in question is really her husband’s stepmother, or…?
HH BVPS Maharaja: It just depends, if it’s stepmother or not stepmother, that doesn’t really matter, if it’s stepmother or mistress, that’s more of a problem. You know what I am saying? If it’s not a matter of it’s the mistress, it’s just a matter of he considers her like mother ,or somehow or another maybe she was her father’s mistress, and so, that maybe something just to be too embarassing, but… Right? In other words, if it’s not mistress, then I wouldn’t worry about it. You can just ask, why is it that some people say she is not? So as long as it’s not a mistress, then you couldn’t care less if she is the mother in law, or not the mother in law, what do you care? [Laughter]
Mataji: What if others claim that the lady in question is his mistress?
HH BVPS Maharaja: Then you can check, otherwise ask. But you just have to make sure is that he understands that whatever is the situation that then you’ll work it out. You know, unless, of course, you are so fiery and possessive that you could never function until you found out. Then you decide whether you want the relationship to go on or not. Right? And if you want it to go on, don’t find out. And if you don’t mind it ending, then find out. You know what I am saying? Does that work?
Mataji: Where are the limits until which you can investigate and whether there is sense in investigating?
HH BVPS Maharaja: Well, the point is is, if it’s investigated other than something very simple, then they’ll feel there is no trust. And if there is no trust, how do you base, how do you establish the relationship? Does that make sense? So rather than have two people without trust, at least if you start with one, it’s easier to get to the relationship. Right? Because if it is something that you wish it wasn’t, there is a good chance, it’s just stupidity. So therefore something, you can work something out. If it’s beyond stupidity, then you have a problem. But otherwise, there has to be a feeling that if there is a desire to work it out, in other words, if the relationship is going very nicely with the person, then there is a good chance it’s stupidity. If the relationship is not going well with the person, then there is something else underlying it. Does that make sense? In other words, the first one is, they want the relationship to be there, but they are somehow or other distracted. The second one, they are not really so worried if it goes on or not. Or, it may be, they are just so distracted. In that case then it would be very much the other woman’s fault. Does that make sense? They came on so strong and so heavy, they just completely bewildered him, and he just doesn’t put in the proper time to your relationship. Does that make sense? So then you have to judge what’s the position and then if you wanna make it work then how to say it in such a way that they know you wanna make it work, and so whatever it is, you are willing to move on. Does that make sense? Does that work? There is something back there? There was somebody back there.
Mataji: So if in a relationship one person thinks that the relationship is going okay, but from one day to another the other one just [indistinct 37:14] the relationship, then should we try to find out where we made the mistake, or… should we…. So what should our position be in this case?
HH BVPS Maharaja: If you want the relationship to continue, then you can find out. Means, they went into the relationship thinking something would happen. So, if it’s their concept of how it should happen is not happening, then you find out what it is that’s going on. Right? If you don’t want it to go on, then leave it, because the other person already, they took the step, so then… Saved you the trouble. Does that make sense? But if you plan it to go on, find out. Or, if you wanted it to end and you are happy it’s done, and the other person accomplished it, but still you should contemplate yourself what went wrong, so that that doesn’t happen in any other relationship. Does that make sense? There was somebody back there? Yeah.
Prabhu: The wife’s duty is to follow the husband, but what if the husband doesn’t do the right things and he says that it’s because he is trying to maintain his family? So the husband doesn’t
HH BVPS Maharaja: But what does that got to do with the wife following?
Prabhu: So how does she relate? Can she try to [indistinct 40:33] and take her husband to like more proper behavior…?
HH BVPS Maharaja: If it’s possible. Follow doesn’t mean blind, you have two intelligent, sentient beings who make an agreement to work together. Means, follow means the man moves first, then the woman responds to that, right? Isn’t it? So, therefore if the response is not good, then the man therefore as the leader has to look at that, because that’s a situation in what he has to lead. Depending upon the field, the man makes a commitment to action. So now if the field is unfavorable, then he has to then make his action in line with that, he has to address that. In other words, the wife is responding to the activities of the husband, otherwise how you define “follow”? You know what I am saying?
Prabhu: So the wife has to respond, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that she follows, but she has to respond? That’s what you meant?
HH BVPS Maharaja: Respond means follow. Otherwise follows means what? He goes out, robs the bank, and so she is riding shotgun or what, that’s follow? [Laughter] He has got his fingers in the cash register, she is there with the gun, going, “All right, everybody down…” [Laughter] You know what I am saying? What do you mean by “follow”? Follow means, whatever is the whim of the husband, what he thinks a woman should do, she does, that’s following? Is that it? You know, I decide, my horse should fly, but it has to be, my desires have to be within the nature of the horse to do. So only someone who knows the nature of a woman knows how to get them to follow what you want, because what you want is what they can do. Right?
So a woman very much trained and fixed in the sense of “right” will not appreciate a husband who is making his money by “wrong.” He shouldn’t say, “Well, I am the husband, you should be fine with that.” You shouldn’t have married someone who thinks like that if you wanted to do something different. Right? Someone from the community of thieves marries a girl from the community of thieves, then she is gonna be inspired. “What are you doing sitting around on the couch? You could be out robbing a bank!” [Laughter] “Hey, we have a party this weekend, I want two banks tonight!” Do you understand? So that’s the point is, what it is you want to do, marry someone who appreciates that. So if she doesn’t appreciate it, then if you don’t try to work that out, then where is the relationship? If it’s just man says, woman does, then, you know, hey, get a robot. Japan has those great robots these days. Does that make sense?
Prabhu: Ladies often complain about men not spending much time with them. If the man spends half an hour with the lady, the lady would have liked 1 hour, he spends the whole day with her, then the lady would want him to spend every day with her. Does it mean that it’s a natural course of things that the ladies always complain, or we are doing something wrong in spending time with the lady?
HH BVPS Maharaja: Is there a third option? I mean, would you be upset if we suggested a third option? Either you are wrong or they are wrong, right? That’s the options you’ve given so far.
Prabhu: I would rather be interested how to make things better, so that both parties would be satisfied.
HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay, but it’s not that they are both wrong, or one or the other is wrong.
Prabhu: Then that could be wrong that one of them is wrong or both are wrong. [Laughter]
HH BVPS Maharaja: But I am saying, would you be upset if there was not either of that?
Prabhu: [Indistinct 49:35]
HH BVPS Maharaja: So if whatever time you spend it’s not enough, that meant the time that you spent the woman appreciated. So who is wrong?
Prabhu: No one.
HH BVPS Maharaja: That’s the third option.
Prabhu: So does it mean that this phenomena is not a problem?
HH BVPS Maharaja: No.
Prabhu: So it’s a natural way to work things out?
HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes. [Laughter] Be happy with that one. When they say, “Why you spend so much time in the house?” that’s a problem. You know what I am saying? In other words, something nice then one always likes to be around. So you have to balance between effectively getting all your duties done, while maintaining that position that makes you unique that she married you in the first place, and spending time with her and becoming useless. You know what I am saying? In other words, if you spend too much time, then what makes you special, you are not special anymore. So you have to find the balance, you have to keep yourself busy in your occupation, at the same be able to give time when it’s needed to the wife. In other words, one day she needs the whole day, but if you do that, the next day she won’t take the whole day. Never make the mistake of thinking that how she is responding now is how it’s going to be eternally. Maximum that any woman will do any one thing is five days, and that’s if it’s ecstasy. They like it – three days, if it’s okay – one day. Right? In other words, if today they call you 50 times on the phone, doesn’t mean now forever they are gonna call you 50 times on the phone. But if you talk to them that 50 times on the phone, then after some days then they are busy and they don’t call you 50 times on the phone. Right? So therefore you just deal with what’s happening at the moment. Ladies like their own time. So their time, they want you to be busy and doing something else. But there is times where they want you to be around. So won’t be every day only 5 minutes and 37 seconds. One day it’s 5 hours, one day it’s half an hour. And what day is gonna be what, then, as Lord Shiva says, he has never worked out. [Laughter] He just knows, that’s the way it is. So when it’s half an hour, don’t get upset why it’s not 5 hours. And when it’s 5 hours, don’t be upset why it’s not half an hour. And know it, that when you want to be doing something else, that’s when the 5 hours comes. And when you have nothing else to do, that’s the half an hour.
Prabhu: Sounds familiar.
HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes. So therefore you keep yourself busy, and then when she needs to be with you, you are with her. Right? Does that make sense?
Prabhu: So but sometimes I need to retreat and spend some time which is to myself and…
HH BVPS Maharaja: That will come when the half-an-hour is there.
Prabhu: … but the wife will freak out.
HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, you spend your time alone when she is busy. Do you understand? In other words, your spare time is when she is taking it. Right? Let’s try again. You like being with the girl, right? Okay. And when you have time to yourself, are you comfortable with that? So therefore both situations are comfortable for you? Right? So therefore don’t plan which one will be happening when and how much. Right? So when it’s time to be with her, then you like being with her, so it’s happening. And when she wants to do her things, then that’s the time for you to do your things. Right? In other words, you are not in control of the time. Does that make sense? Time is a verb, verb is feminine, get used to it.
Prabhu: Yes, I am practicing that one.
HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay? In other words, you’ll be happy. You will only be frustrated if you decided, “Today I am doing this. I got to have my time,” or, “I wanna spend time with her,” then you’ll be frustrated. Don’t make that kind of plan. Plan that, you know, chant Hare Krishna, go back to Godhead, be Krishna conscious, surrender to Krishna, that kind of stuff you work on. Right? That you can do all day, always remember Krishna and never forget. But when the woman wants to be more with you or less with you, don’t bother planning. Unless you like to be frustrated. If you really like to be frustrated, make a plan every day. [Laughter]
Prabhu: So the great solution for that is detachment also?
HH BVPS Maharaja: Bingo! [Laughter] Haribol! [Applause] Right? Yeah, that’s why it’s said, a first-class brahmachari makes a first-class grihastha. You can’t be a good grihastha if you are attached, you can only be a good grihastha if you are detached. Right? Does that make sense?
Prabhu: In this connection, I wanted to say that with time to establish this kind of balance between family life, devotional activities and work, and so we try to find a balance, and does this mean that actually the reason of balance, we will never be able to find a balance between them, because we are not in control of the time and we should not plan to reach this point?
HH BVPS Maharaja: Balance means, okay. Let us say, you are standing straight. To maintain your balance, where are your arms? Hanging on your side. But if you are leaning one way, where does your arms go? Right? They would go the other way, right? So that would mean, balance is, balancing between the movements of one side and the other. That martial artist is not here?
Prabhu: There is he! He is at the back.
HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay, right at the back, right? You never see them when they do things, there is something this side, and then the other one is off the other side? Yes? Does that make sense? So you are expecting to have something balanced means, okay, at 6:03 I do this until 7:09, and then at 7:09 then I do this, but that’s not balanced, that’s fixed. Right? Balance means, if it goes this way, then it means that sometime it goes that way. Do you understand? So you are taking the balance on one day. Why not take it on a week or a month? You know what I am saying? So you might find two or three days it’s more with the wife, but in the same way is it will go other times, when it’s less with the wife. So the ability to balance means, when it’s less you can fill it in with something else, and when it’s more then you can adjust the other activities. Does that make sense?
Prabhu: I notice that the tendency is that in both these areas they somehow tend to occupy all your time, so in all of these areas somehow they, the time that’s used to occupy the time, all the time…
HH BVPS Maharaja: Welcome to grihastha life… [Laughter] See it’s like this. Other than transcendental activities the woman has to feel she is more important than anything else that’s important to you. Let us say, you are always busy in your occupation, and you are busy in your occupation making money, right? And this money is to take care of the wife, right? Therefore you spend so much time making money. But she has to feel that she is more important than your need to make money to take care of her, even though the work and the money are for her. Because the work and the money is the field of activities, it’s not the relationship. Therefore sometimes they seemingly make unlogical, unreasonable demands that something that is important to you that’s for them is actually compromised. Does that make sense? Because they wanna know that they are more important than the field, they have to know they are more important than your house and your money, and your car, and you job, and your position. That’s why when you are the most focused on one of those, that’s when they are going to pull the option card. I wanted to say a joke, but I didn’t. [Laughter] Does that make sense? So that’s why that happens. You know what I am saying? Don’t try to… Means, you know the science, so you logically apply the science, but the science is on dealing with emotion, it’s not functioning by logic. It’s functioning on need and security, right? Does that make sense? That’s its logic. As far as skills go, it doesn’t have that kind of logic. That means, even if you know the science of dealing with women so nicely, still they will put it to the test and make you work out. Even Casanova had to work really hard, because if you don’t work hard, the women aren’t impressed. Because if you are committed and you work hard and you do the impossible, means, the relationship is important.
Draupadi wants… After saying she wants his head, after Draupadi says, she wants… What’s his name? Ashvatthama’s head, and she is only going to tie her hair after washing it, taking a bath standing on his head, and that means, head is not connected to the body, because he doesn’t want her kin to be looking at her when she is taking her bath… Then, having brought the body that had the appropriate head, then she says, don’t kill him, and Bhima is saying, “No, you must kill him.” So he has to work that out. And so because he worked it out, that’s why people still talk about that story today, five thousand years later. Right? So if you work out these seemingly un-work-out-able situations, then the ladies will be happy and still talking about it in a positive way.
Prabhu: And can that, all these activities that are connected to this [indistinct 01:11:06] and somehow… So they are… after a while if you connect them to Krishna because they are devotional service? Somehow your duty is the same…
HH BVPS Maharaja: You got it? Means, if you balance all these things, connect them all to Krishna, are all these activities on an equal level, considered as devotional activities? Yes and no. Yes meaning that they are either direct devotional activities or activities that are favorable for direct activities. In other words, your material life now is connected to Krishna, but it’s still material life connected to Krishna, while the others are spiritual activities connected to Krishna. Right? But material activities connected to Krishna are favorable, while material activities not connected to Krishna are unfavorable. So you are bringing in line with favorable. So that means, the direct devotional activities will bring you love of God. The indirect activities, those will give you liberation. So since you have to get out of the material world to go back to Godhead, that makes them favorable. Does that make sense? So they are assisting, but they are not on the same level. Just like you take your bath before you do the Deity worship. So offering aratik to the Deity and taking a bath is on the same level? But taking a bath is favorable for doing the aratik. So it’s like that. Is that okay? Yeah.
Mataji: On the same question, basically. Rupa Goswami gave the definition of devotional service, and he gave the activities which are devotional service, and our Acharyas say that varnashrama is not direct devotional service, but if we connect it, so this answer the question that varnashrama connected to Krishna is Daivi-varnashrama and therefore it’s favorable for direct devotional activities…
HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, favorable would give you liberation. You know what I am saying?
Mataji: But not devotional service?
HH BVPS Maharaja: No, means naishkarmya doesn’t give you devotional service, it gives you liberation. But wanting to do that naishkarmya to please Krishna, that mood, that’s devotional service. You know what I am saying? That you wanna engage your family life according to the rules in Krishna’s service, therefore that sentiment is service. You know what I am saying? That’s there. That’s why Krishna says, perform your duty, that’s varnashrama, in knowledge, means it’s not just happening, but you know what’s going on, without a desire for result, that makes it naishkarmya as Ji over here pointed out. Then, okay, so now we’ve gotten naishkarmya, performance of duties with knowledge without attachment, that is, as the 5th chapter says, actual Krishna consciousness. That will get you out of the material world. But you are doing it for Krishna, remembering Krishna, so that takes on a devotional element.
HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, yeah. Means everything is included in that statement. Perform your duties, that’s karma, with knowledge, that’s jnana, without attachment, that’s jnana, remembering Me, that’s dhyana, for Me, that’s bhakti. So the whole thing will be counted as bhakti, that’s Buddhi-yoga. Means, the combination of karma, jnana and dhyana in devotional service is Buddhi-yoga. Right? So in the beginning karma generally is more prominent. And with time then the jnana becomes more prominent, then slowly dhyana will become more prominent. But all three elements are always present, it’s just what’s the balance, what’s prominent, what’s less. Right? And then, that’s done for Krishna, so then it becomes counted as devotional service. I don’t remember, what verse it is, means, it’s mentioned in a verse that says “iti.”
HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, okay. So therefore that “iti” then refers to all these things that are favorable and connected to devotional service, therefore give the effect of devotional service. Does that make sense? It’s like iron acts like fire when it’s in fire. Iron is not fire, but in fire it acts like it. Therefore karma, jnana and dhyana in the fire of devotional service act like devotional service. But still, despite that, chanting Hare Krishna, hearing Bhagavatam, associating with devotees, worshipping the Deity, living in the Dhama are special. Right? Okay? Anything else? Yes?
Mataji: Just to… Maybe in this connection, that when we say emotions, somehow in our mind the concept of spontaneity comes up…
HH BVPS Maharaja: Spontaneity?
Mataji: Spontaneity, yes and somehow…
HH BVPS Maharaja: That’s what I was trying to explain to these two down there. [Laughter]
Mataji: … and so is there a place for spontaneity, or emotional experience is only possible when we work on it, so it doesn’t come by itself, but you always have to work, and the more we work on it the better?
HH BVPS Maharaja: No, it’s… Activity… Oh, okay. Means, only through action is there an experience. Excitement comes from the possiblity of experience. Does that make sense? In other words, the man has created some environment, or some elements of the field. That may create excitement in the girl, but not happiness. It’s only through activity then that happiness can come. Does that make sense?
HH BVPS Maharaja: So the point is is, whatever it is is interesting to you, naturally there will be the most focus and anything wherever there is the most focus, that activity will give the best result. So therefore what is being focused on now, means, what spontaneously generated, that is going to give the most focus, therefore the greatest experience. Right? And women can’t not be doing something, because if they stop doing something, then there is no experience. If there is no experience, there is no existence. It’s like a shark, shark can’t stop swimming, if they stop swimming they can’t breathe. Actually, in the scriptures sometimes ladies are compared to sharks. [Laughter] Krishna is also a shark, it’s not so bad.
Translator: Krishna is also…?
HH BVPS Maharaja: No,it’s okay. These are just points to deflect or defuse, because we are political [01:24:00].
Mataji: On spontaneous emotions, emotions that are felt spontaneously?
HH BVPS Maharaja: I didn’t explain that? I am saying, therefore what comes up on the moment is always going to have more focus than something that’s planned. That’s an important point. Therefore, when in the morning the wife says, “Oh, let’s do this in the evening!” Because that’s what right now she feels like doing in the evening. It doesn’t mean that in the evening she will feel like doing that. So therefore the man goes out the door with that, makes all the plans, and then comes home and expects, that’s what’s going to happen. So if you are smart, when you walk in the door, you walk in the door with a clean slate on what could possibly happen, then there’ll be no surprises and it will be able to work on the spontaneity of the moment, which will have more focus, therefore more results, therefore better experience. Yes?
Mataji: Therefore man has to be very flexible?
HH BVPS Maharaja: This was horse’s mouth. You heard from the authority. [Laughter] Something that’s flexible does not break.
Prabhu: But generally it doesn’t happen anyway that what is planned is happen?
HH BVPS Maharaja: No. Generally, you could probably say, definitely it won’t happen. But if it does happen, then nice, so don’t say, “Oh, it will never happen,” no, but, even if it takes preparation, prepare for it. Because even though you’ve prepared for it, it will be appreciated, as long as you are willing to do the other activity. Because you prepared for it because of their desire, but now they desire something else, you do that, so therefore you’re accommodating their desire. Right? Otherwise, if you say, “Well, we prepared for that, why aren’t we doing that?” means, doing that is more important than their desire. So if you are flexible and don’t get upset, then they understand it’s their desire that’s important, not the activity. Activity is just a medium. Does that make sense?
Prabhu: I wanted to ask one more question…
HH BVPS Maharaja: Is it on that or not? Because otherwise the time is up.
Prabhu: It’s regarding women’s desire, men’s willing to fulfill their desires. When should man, let’s say, put the… So not follow, this means, put the [indistinct 01:28:38] in the door [indistinct 01:28:40] the expression… It’s like…
HH BVPS Maharaja: We use it for saying something?
Prabhu: No, no, so not to fulfill their desire, but…
HH BVPS Maharaja: No, I understand what you mean, I am just saying how do we use it in English?
Generally if you can figure out how to move with their desire, then this one will be easy. You know what I am saying? Does that make sense? The hard thing is being able to move with it, not not moving with it. Basically, most men are very expert at putting the foot in the door with any desire that women have. You know what I am saying? That’s not the need where the practice is important, where it’s needed . It’s important, in other words, something that won’t be good for them. Like that, but then that has to be explained nicely, in other words, use pleasantness, not your foot. And if they understand it, great, and if they don’t understand it, then try to create a situation in which they can fulfill that need that will create the least amount of disturbance. Because women learn by experiencing, so if you want them to learn then you have to create an experience. So even if you wanna explain it to them that it’s not good, you have to explain it so it actually generates an emotional experience for them. “You shouldn’t wear this out on the street, it’s too revealing.” So that’s just intellectual. But the point is is, “If you wear this on the street, that means, everybody on the street is gonna be able to tell what kind of chest you have, what it looks like, what your cleavage is, what your texture of your skin is. Do you really want that just a common guy knows what you look like? Not only that, other women know what you look like. Now they they can judge if they are better than you or not. So not only do you make yourself common, you also may compromise your prestige.” That’s different. Do you understand? You know, it’s like you go out and something is on display in the window, everybody can see it. If you go to a store and in the front of the store, in the window, in the glass is nicely displayed the jewelry. Or if you go to the store and the window is black and it says the name of the store there, and there is a guy there at the door, holding a gun, and if you wanna see the jewelry, you have to be dressed properly, and then walk into the store, and going up to the counter you ask for a specific thing. Only then do they pull out the box where it’s nicely displayed and you get to see it. Which of those two stores carries the more valuable jewelry? The first or the second?
Prabhu: The second.
HH BVPS Maharaja: The second, therefore if a girl considers her body valuable, why would it be so cheaply available to anybody, no matter what their qualification, and they are not even gonna do anything for her for seeing her chest, why should she show it? How much does a girly magazine cost here?
Prabhu: 2 Euro
HH BVPS Maharaja: 2 Euros, so that means, a guy is going to pay 2 Euros to look at a girl’s chest. Right? And you consider that cheap. So how cheap is free? So the boys don’t mind at all, they think it’s the greatest thing that girls go out half-dressed, they are in ecstasy. Right? Explain it like that to women, you might find you get results. It generates an experience, do you understand? But just saying, “Don’t do that,” and that’s it, then, you know, “Why? I like it.” Because factually, the ladies are dressing to impress the other ladies. The ladies could wear a potato sack and the guys would still like them. Otherwise why do they always have to ask the husband, “How do you like my saree?” Because he didn’t even notice it was a new saree! So they dress to impress the other women. Of course, how they dress to impress the other women is that they have what it takes to impress the men. So if the girl is out on the street looking really skimpily dressed, she is, don’t even for one second think that she is doing that for you. She is doing that for the other girls.
HH BVPS Maharaja: Skimpily, yeah, scarcely. Does it make sense? But if they are aware of how the men actually think of them like a common piece of meat, then they might reconsider. Because that’s all the better consideration the girls who dress like that get. Right? A piece of flesh that they’ll take to the hotel and not that they are gonna marry or be responsible for her. So it’s just something to exploit. So if that’s understood, then they will be careful, like that. Does that make sense? So we’ll end here on that happy note. Jaiho!
Srila Prabhupada ki jaya! Samaveta-bhakta-vrinda ki jaya! Jaya Nitai-Gaura-premanande Hari Haribol!