MAN WOMAN INTERACTION LECTURE #6 Eger, Hungary

HH BVPS Maharaja: Any questions? [Laughter]

Prabhu: Let's take someone, not me, but someone... [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay, just a hypothetical... [Laughter] Some person of the 6 billion, could be any culture, any place, any time...

Prabhu: So this hypothetical person, somehow he functions well in all his relationships, he knows how to operate relationships and they are going well, but somehow just with his wife relationship doesn't seem to work and it's always... There are always conflicts. Not always, but often.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Occasionally. [Laughter]

Prabhu: Sometimes, seldom. Sometimes.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Not more than at least three times a day? [Laughter] But there has been no definition of what is this problem?

Prabhu: Why does a person deal with his relative in a different way as with everyone else? And until she was not a relative, he could deal with her properly, but as soon as she became a relative, his wife, somehow things went wrong. Why is it?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes. [Laughter] It's called possession. Do you understand? Because something you possess you expect is going to go... You expect... How you say? Something that you possess, you identify with it that it will function the way you think it will. Does that make sense? So therefore you are not looking at how to deal with it. Others you are looking, okay, they are there, how are they gonna deal I'll respond to it like that, because they are not yours. But a husband or wife you think is yours, therefore you automatically think that they understand what you want, feel, this that, bla. But there is still an individual that you still have to apply the same principles that you apply in everybody else. Right?

Marriage is to create confidence. Marriage doesn't mean now I don't have to endeavor. Does that make sense? In fact, the endeavor is more, because now it can go deeper. Only something you possess are you willing to invest that much energy into. Right? So... Does that make some sense? So that's the point is that the same principles that you apply in relationships with everybody else that's going fine you are not applying in the marriage because of the sense of possession that you don't have to. Right? Let us say, you have a friend and they have a car. And at least if you are a little cultured, when you drive their car, you are gonna be very careful. But your car, that same carefulness may not be there. Do you understand? Someone who does drive well with their own car is called a good driver. Do you understand? Automatically it's just, "Oh, whatever I want the car will do." But in the friend's car you are being very careful not to do something that's gonna disturb the car and therefore disturb your friend.

Mataji: Also you know your car better than the friend's car, so you are more careful with the friend's car because...

HH BVPS Maharaja: You know your car better than the friend's car, so you are more careful with the friend's car? But let us say it's the same car, so you know how it works, the gears, the clutch, everything. So what we were pointing out is, the example is that possession can get in the way, because one becomes less aware or less sensitive. So the point is is, sensitivity is what makes things work. Why is it that you have... Okay, you have six month, you have three year, you have thirty year... How you say? "Association period." And it goes nicely, but once there is marriage, then it doesn't... It's not the same. What's changed? Possession. It's not yours, so you are being very careful that you can get it. But once it's yours, then you deal with it when you like, how you like, that's what you feel. Right?

In other words, let's say you go into a shop. You pick up a very expensive bottle of perfume and you are looking at it. You'll deal with it very carefully, you'll appreciate it. You don't take it for granted, even if somebody, even if your friend makes you angry, you'll still put it down carefully because you don't wanna have to pay for it if you don't want it. But once you've bought it, who looks at the bottle? You just put it on the shelf, when you wanna use it, you use it, when you don't you don't. And if you get angry, it's yours, you wanna throw it on the floor, you do. You know what I am saying? So the point is is that principle of respect then you still deal as sensitively as before marriage after marriage, but the difference is the confidence that this is yours now. Does that make sense?

Mataji: I didn't want to argue the possession part, just saying that sometimes when these two people are together they know each other much more than we know other people, so we know good and bad much more.

HH BVPS Maharaja: We know good and bad, all we know... Okay.

Mataji: It's easier to be good amongst others than when two people live together.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay, okay, but still if you want the relationship to work, the principles of interaction are the same. You know more, you know less, it's no different. The sensitivity that's there on the first day of meeting you still have to use the same on after three months of meeting or after three years or after 30 years if you want it to work. The more you know, the better it should work, you know what I am saying? If you look at working, not what is field, in other words, from the field you know how it works.

Okay, let us say that you have someone who were blamed by somebody that they did something wrong and this had a great impression upon them. So then now that person is married to somebody, so then let us say that the other person, let's say, they did something wrong. And then the partner then points it out that they just did something wrong. Now, then they'll get upset because they've been told they have done something wrong. Not that they haven't done something wrong, but being blamed for doing something wrong, that's the problem. So you could say, "Well, what's the trip, just because somebody ten years ago said you are wrong, why are you tripping about that you are wrong today? It's a different person, different situation, bla." But that's knowing something about him, but that's the wrong application. Knowing that that's the problem... Now, saying that you know better then it should... But now this is how you would apply you know that, therefore when they do something wrong instead of pointing out what they did wrong, you could show another way of doing something. Right? And as long as they don't interpret that as you indirectly said they were wrong, then you use it. If they even interpret it that way, you don't say anything. You let it go. Do you understand? Knowledge does not make a relationship, knowledge is what you use for a relationship. Is that okay? So in other words, do you want the relationship to work, or do you wanna be right? If you wanna be right, be a lawyer, go practice. [Laughter] Or go work for Amnesty International. You know what I am saying? But if you want a relationship to work, if you know them so well, you know what makes it work, so you only do those things. And things that don't work you avoid. Does that make sense? Then security is maintained. Is that okay? So that's the meaning of knowing somebody, means you know them how to make it work, not you know them how to find fault. If you wanna know them how to find fault, talk to their mother, she has got it good. But the mothers put all that aside, right? Here you have a living entity, absolutely self-centered, there is nothing other than them in the world. When they wanna eat they cry, when they wanna sleep they cry, they don't bother going to the bathroom, they go to the toilet all over everything, they burp all over everything, they don't have any regulation when they sleep, when they eat, nothing! I mean, you can't get worse than that, right? But the mother puts all that aside. How do you deal with them that they are like that? They are self-centered, they need something, then within a split second you are trying to figure it out. They are hungry, you feed them, they are tired, you put them to sleep. Do you understand? So therefore the relationship works, because you put all the facts that you know, those are used how to relate, not how to find fault. Is that okay?

Prabhu: So just to show a parallel, that senior devotees sometimes do the same thing, that they think that their duty is to show that the fault is there in others...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, if you are gonna show the fault, it has to be in a way that the other person appreciates it and is inspired to do something about it, which means you have to tell them how to do something about it and be willing to take them through it. Does that make sense? It's complete. Means, the point is, if you find a fault, you have to have the solution how to get through it and be willing to actually take them through it, however long that takes. That's leadership. Is that okay?

Prabhu: Knowing that in the family situation women show the faults in their husbands, but they are not willing to take them through the process of correcting it.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes, but I said, who is the leader?

Prabhu: Yes, I see. [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: That's the point, means, the man leads, that means he leads in everything. The thing is, "Oh, shastra says, okay, the husband leads, the woman follows." But generally what happens is the men interpret this to mean, "Whatever I want just the woman does." I say it, they do it. I say "jump" they say how high. Great marriage, right? Reality, woman follows means this: Whatever it is that I want the wife to do, I do it first. We've had an argument, I want her to see her fault because she is wrong, I have to see my fault first. I want her to be humble, I have to be humble first. I want her to serve me, I have to serve her first. Slightly different concept of leadership. But that's what leadership is. You lead, you do it first. The king ir leading the troops, where is he standing? In the front. Right? The head cook is doing what? He is the first one in the kitchen, he is the one organizing, he made the menu, therefore he is leading. Right? If the king sits back in the palace, says, "You guys go out and, you know, fight with those guys!" How will the troops feel? You know, they may do it out of some duty, but there is no feeling there. But in the front of the troops, then you don't have to talk about duty, the feeling is so strong, they are willing to be out there and die for you, right? But that means, they are willing \ to die for them. That's leadership.

Prabhu: So what did that husband do wrong who showed his wife first how to iron, and now he is the one who is ironing? And he showed his wife how to cook and now he is the cook in the family and he showed how to listen to the other person, and now he is the one who is listening all the time. What was... Where did he make a mistake? [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Well, the last one I can't say anything about, that one is standard. [Laugher] Ehm, okay. Let us try this. Your skill in ironing and cooking was better than hers that she feels insecure that if she does it wrong you'll feel badly, therefore she doesn't want to do those two things in case it's not up to the standard you said. That would be one scenario. Other is is that you do it very nicely so it's a standard that she appreciates and it's a nice medium for relationship and she is so satisfied with the way you do it that that becomes a basis. And so many other things she does. You didn't mention cleaning the toilet and cleaning the house and fixing the bed and cleaning the kitchen and setting everything nicely in all its places within the house and arranging all the things that you would cook with. Or washing the clothes, or putting the clothes away to be washed, picking up a sock here, another sock over there, a shirt here. You know what I am saying? Did we...? [Laughter] Do you understand? So that's two things out of another 5 million, so... And then, three, have you ever told her that you kind-of thought she would do the cooking?

Prabhu: [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Because if you didn't how does she know, she may have thought you cook, you like to cook, and so therefore then it's a nice way to reciprocate, interact. You cook, she sets up, she cleans up. So unless you've said, how do they even know? You know what I am saying? So there is different approaches, you have to see, it could be all three of them, or it could be any one of them. There maybe something more, maybe you commented one time that that wasn't cooked so well. And if they are very left-wing, that was the last day they were ever gonna cook for you, you can cook yourself. You can also cook lunch, but I am just saying... [Laughter] Didn't catch it... Cook yourself means, you can go, jump in fire, cook yourself.

Mataji: It doesn't come in Hungarian...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, yeah... [Laughter] No, no, no... You know what I am saying? So what's behind it, unless more detail is known, it could be anything. Right? In other words, left wing will get you now, right wing will get you later. You'll be gotten, it's just a matter when. Is that okay?

Mataji: You seem to make the point that sometimes even by setting the example, the other side doesn't pick up, so what...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Setting the example, the other side doesn't pick up? See, there is setting the example in an activity, and there is setting example in the relationship. So I was specifically talking about relationship. You want the other person to drop the argument, you have to drop it first. Skills is another thing. But the point is that a woman doesn't adjust very well in being told she is wrong. So you might risk that you end up doing it, right? At least for some time until they... How you say? You've been disciplined appropriately. Did that answer the half of the question that you asked before I started blabbering?

Mataji: But just what can be done, like in a situation, like in his situation, what he was asking about, what is the way to get across, when it's activity, okay, the mood we understand, but we...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay, so it's activity.

Mataji: ...if it's activity neglected, let's say, by the wife, then...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Activity neglected by the wife, okay, but the point is is, generally food and clothes won't be neglected by women, they like to eat nice, dress nice, so there must be something else behind. Because when we brought up the point of, was a fault pointed out or was it ever discussed, then there was silence. In other words, what are duties within the house should be obvious, you know what I am saying? Then it makes it clear, because that's the thing, you are living with somebody, so you should be able to talk about anything. That communication, that camaraderie, that's the real basis of the relationship. If you can't communicate, then how it's going to work? At the end of the day what you are left with is companionship. You know what I am saying? I once met a couple, they were about 80 years old, and so I asked what keeps the relationship together? And they said, companionship. They said, the romance, that was gone like 50 years ago. So the point is it's companionship. In other words, a couple has to be best friends, right? That's the thing, all the rasas are there, so those... That has to be there also. Does that make sense? Is that okay?

Prabhu: So somehow I got it that we get stuck on the level of communication, because the woman does something, the man raises his voice, then the woman starts crying and then the man raises his voice even more, so the whole thing gets stuck at it and that's it, its's finished at that point.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Because the technique is wrong. You know what I am saying? Shakuntala points out in the Mahabharata when she is talking to Maharaja Dushmanta, who is her husband. And one of the points she makes is even in anger a man never does anything to displease his women. That's why if a grihastha is not sense-controlled, he'll never be successful. Upadeshamrita starts with anger, that it's one of the things that has to be controlled. And that comes from words, if you don't control what you speak, then you don't control the mind, then you don't control anger. Right? Because they did something wrong in mechanical skill, either some physical activity, or some social interaction, but it's an activity that gets observable result which is important for the man. We mentioned that it's the experience gained from the interaction or the result that's important to the woman. So even if they are wrong, it should be said in a pleasant way that the experience is nice. Nice doesn't mean that it has to be chirpy, nice means that it has to be able to be appreciated. So they were wrong in the activity, but the man was wrong in the exchange, in his anger he dealt improperly. Maybe he is judicially correct, but emotionally he was wrong, therefore the woman gets angry, because the man is wrong. So now if you want her to understand her wrong, the man has to first understand his wrong. Right? And there is only one way, humility. No "if's", no "and's", no "but's." The man is humble and proves his sincerity that he was wrong, then the mood will change. So as soon as they do something wrong, by habit you say something and it's rougher than what they expected, and they start to cry, then you don't say anything more. Then you start saying, oh, you are sorry, this that and prove your... How you say? Repentance. Are you catching all this? Notice this, the brahmachari is hearing all this and smiling, "I am missing out on all this." [Laughter] And the grihastha men are all sitting, "Oh, that's what's wrong." [Laughter] You know what I am saying? That's why it doesn't matter, we discussed brahmacharya, you know how to be a good grihastha, we discuss actual detail of grihastha, it makes great brahmacharis. [Laughter]

Prabhu: He cannot be completely left out, because if a lady devotee crushes the Sankirtana van, then he has to react in a nice and polite way, so he cannot be left out completely, being a leader and senior devotee.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Of course. Or, he can get another brahmachari to drive the bus. [Laughter] Park down the street, so you can... Yeah... [Laughter]

Prabhu: I already suggested that [indistinct 39:56] drivers.

HH BVPS Maharaja: See, the point is is, yes, don't expect them to do something that you are not doing. Because unless you can tell them, that's how they have to deal and protect them when they do that, so in other words, if the lady crushes the Sankirtana van, you should deal with it, not him. Because if he tells her, "No, don't worry, these things happen," things like that, then she'll say, "Oh, he is so considerate, so kind," so this and that, "The perfect husband," like that. [Laughter]

Prabhu: Oh, yes, I see.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Do you understand? Because you are supposed to protect the brahmacharis, brahmacharis are junior, therefore they have to be protected. Human society means, brahmacharis, women, cows, brahmanas and the old are protected. So even though he is not a punk kid, still he is a brahmachari, he has to be protected by the grihasthas. [Laughter]

Prabhu: So all these kinds of proper reciprocations, can they be learned from the relationship between Radha and Krishna, because They are the perfect examples of perfect reciprocation?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes, as long as you know that's where it comes from. Have you ever heard in any pastime Krishna yell at Radharani? But how many pastimes you hear of, Radharani is mad with Krishna and tells him to get out of here? And how does Krishna respond when Radharani is angry? Does He just say, "Hey, make a bridge, get over it." No, He is down there on His knees. That's God. Why do you think He's got 16,108 wives? He knows what He is doing. Do you understand? That's where it comes from.

Prabhu: I don't want to get into details, I just theoretically wanted to know whether we should learn these things from those pastimes. [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Erm... Somebody was in the Deity room and they were offering a bunch of bananas. And  they were eating the bananas in the Deity room. And then somebody came by outside the Deity room. And from in the Deity room they heard a voice saying, "I am not eating any bananas." [Laughter] Next question. [Laughter]

Prabhu: Basically, we are talking about... Is a lady, the Mataji, the woman is frustrated, unhappy, dissatisfied, that's basically the lack of leadership of men?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes. Means, if a woman is protected, she will always be happy, but one has to know what protection means. Protection means knowing what their character is, knowing what their needs are, you provide that. What that means for their emotions, their intellect, the senses, whatever it is. The principle is the same, just sophistication will be different. Like you see in the North, the ladies wear very bright colors and everything, while in South they wear more subdued, astringent colors. Or the east is kind-of a mix of the two. But the principle is, they like colors, they like aesthetics, so every woman is like that. So then the husband has to figure out what does that mean. What colors, what smells, what tastes, what situations, what words, what tones of voice? Otherwise why be more intelligent if you don't use it? You know what I am saying? And if one is not clever, women don't appreciate that. Women eat twice as much, they are four times as cunning, six times as envious, nine times as lusty, okay? So you've heard that, that news? Put in the box, stick somewhere over in the corner. But now let's apply this point. Eat twice as much means they appreciate food twice as much as men do. Men sits down to good food, goes, "Hmm." [Laughter] Women sits down to good food, "Oh, wow!" Right? So that's the way, so if they are not doing that, it's not good. Right? Four times as clever, that means they appreciate cleverness four times more that men will. Why do you think girls like Krishna? He is so clever, you know what I am saying? So dullness is never appreciated by women. That's why couch potatoes are like bottom of the line. Do you understand? You have a local saying for a couch potato?

Mataji: Not really, but we know what.. He suggested an expression.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay, a beetroot or something that sits there. Okay? Does that make sense? So that means they are four times more clever, but clever means, practical intelligence, doesn't necessarily mean academic. An individual woman may or may not have academic intelligence, but they are all clever, you know what I am saying? In their own, whatever is important to them, they get it done. You know what I am saying? So that six times as envious, so that means they are six times more affected by it than man. So then that means when some other lady has been jealous of them or something and makes a comment, then the man is thinking, "Oh, it's not such a big deal," because it's not to a man, but multiply whatever is the "deal" to the man times six, that's the experience of the woman. Right? So that means that when you find out what's the problem and they go on blabbering and crying and this and that for half an hour, you don't tell them the whole time, "What's the trip?" You go with that, support them and everything, because that's how much effect it has on them. Yeah? Nine times as lusty. Lust means desire, so there is nine times more desire to see, touch, taste, everything than there is for the man. That's why they have more things, they have... That's generally the mistaken formula of the brahmachari, or the bachelor, let's say. "I have this much stuff, I need this much money, so therefore if I get married, I multiply that numbered by two." The formula is nine. [Laughter] So whatever you have, whatever it requires to maintain you, multiply by ten and that will maintain you and your wife.

Prabhu: And if you have a daughter? [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Add another nine, nineteen! [Laughter] When they are small, then it's the mother's choice, and when they are bigger then it's their choice. Fortunately there is no designer wear diapers and... What you call those little things they stick on the stuff?

Prabhu: [Indistinct 52:47]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes, but if Pierre Cardin was making them... you get problems [Laughter].

Prabhu: [Indistinct 52:58]

HH BVPS Maharaja: But don't tell your wife what that is. You know what I am saying? So that means, so this brings up another point that will come in, it's one of the other questions is, the man feels, "I am putting in so much, seemingly getting so much less back. I am putting in so much service and there is only a little service coming back." So then that we'll get to. Is, we have to understand is that one to the man is his unit of perception. The unit of saying "nine", that's compared to the man's unit, but that "nine" is the woman's one unit. Does that make sense? So when that nine is fulfilled, that's one for the woman, then you get back your one, which is one for the man. You can't compare them. You know, it's like I eat 5 chapatis, the elephant eats 100 chapatis, that's just for him the normal meal. Does that make sense? How are you doing?

Prabhu: Can we somehow reduce this multiplying figures, somehow impact this?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Do elephants eat less? Why would you want to? Don't you want to... What is your medium for service? You know what I am saying? What's the medium for the relationship unless you are creating the environment in which they can be happy? If you reduce it then what are you doing? If you wanna reduce it, spend a night with the boys. Then it's one on one, but if you go home, it's nine on one, that's why conjugal rasa is so much more deep and intense than friendship. Like parental rasa, everyone figures that's pretty good. How much service does the kid render back to the parent compared to what the parent does for the kid? You know what I am saying? I think I did the calculation in America. From the time the kid is conceived to the time they finish university the parent will have spent something like 1.2 or 1.3 million dollars. That's a common family, that's just the average of what will be spent. Any kids ever given their parent back that much money? Or didn't sleep for 2 years when they were born, or were in total anxiety any time they did anything in mood that they could kill themselves falling down the stairs, get run over by a truck, be eaten by the neighbor dog? Right? So it's so much more intense. So you've just been through that that you've dealt with somebody who only gives and hardly gets anything back. Now it's your turn.

Prabhu: So does that mean, just going back to the women, does it mean that their service is nine times more intense towards Krishna than man's service?

HH BVPS Maharaja: No, like that. Means, that's equal, devotionally it's equal, we are just talking about the social interaction. You know what I am saying?

Prabhu: Why less intelligent?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Why less intelligent? First class intelligence means to learn by hearing, second class by seeing, third class by actually doing and having to experience it. A man can learn by hearing or seeing. Women only learn by doing. That's why when you tell them, "If you do this, this will happen or that will happen," then maybe by relationship they won't do, but they haven't necessarily learned. Therefore that's why when they try it, then it goes wrong, then they understand. Does that make sense? So that makes the difference, so is that understood? Therefore in application then if they see, "We should do this or that," you know it will be wrong, they are not convinced, then you let it run, unless it's going to be something very detrimental. Like that, so unless you can explain it in such a way to get through, then you have to... How you say? You have to let it ride its course. Does that make sense?

Mataji: Then why is it that there is so much more criminals among men than among women and so much more criminals who committed some crime against women?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Because they have women that they got to get money together for. [Laughter] Does that make sense? Generally the women are in jail for shooting their husband who didn't take care. [Laughter] Is that okay?

Prabhu: It often happens that if a man preaches nicely to a woman, to a Mataji, then the Mataji will feel that this man would make a nice husband for me, so how can we avoid this, not to preach? By not preaching to women or by preaching in not so nice way to women or...?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Either not preaching or keep it to the intellectual platform, because intellectual is appreciated, but just don't touch as much on the... Means, intellectual means, it's emotionally compatible, but it isn't emotional. You know? Does that make sense? Means, present everything logically and just stick to logic. Does it make more sense? Also, it's the mood, you just keep the mood formal, they catch moods like anything. Because they'll generally only respond to something that's available. You know what I am saying?

Prabhu: So the probably my fault was that I considered the lady to whom I preached due to my age as my daughter, and it didn't work.

HH BVPS Maharaja: If she became your wife, yes, it didn't work. If she latched on as a daughter, then it did work, but you also besides preaching also added a new relation.

Prabhu: So his problem theoretically or hypothetically is that it may occur that the man thinks that this girl would make a nice wife to me and that's why the girl reacts in the way? So it's the man who first thinks that this girl would make nice wife, that's why the woman reacts in such a way?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Not necessarily that he thinks, but just he leaves himself open. You know, in other words, it's just a specific kind of energy, because women can pick up what is the energy. First canto mentions, they have a sixth sense for mood. Like if you wanna know who on your list of brahmacharis are real brahmacharis and could be good brahmacharis, write all the names down, hand it to the ladies and tell them to tick off which ones are gonna be the naishthika brahmacharis. Right? And that list that you get back, that's the real list. Yes? They know, they know who are the brahmacharis and who are the bachelors. Just they don't... They keep their mouth shut, that's all. Unless, of course, they want that bachelor.

Prabhu: So it was mentioned that maybe we should reduce the multiplying figures, and he suggested... I think the problem is that men are trying to repair women, or correct women, or mend women so that they become like the men?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Then why not marry a man? Just have to [indistinct 01:08:13] over to Denmark and Haribol! You know what I am saying? The point is is...

Prabhu: Yes, yes, yes.

HH BVPS Maharaja: ...someone marries a woman because of the feminine nature and interaction. Right? You know what I am saying? You get a horse because it behaves like a horse, you don't take a horse, and then you are gonna turn it into a cat. Right? You know what I am saying? The problem is is the more you put it together, because the point is is you can get them to be like a man, because the living entity is in the material world because they think they are masculine, they are God. But the point is is, do you want to live with a woman who behaves like a man? Right? You want them to be totally feminine, but have all the masculine requirements, you know. Does that make sense? So that's the point is that then the closer it comes together then the more you are going to be dissatisfied. Why does it work? Krishna is hundred percent male, Radharani is hundred percent female. You know what I am saying? Any problems that come up in the material relationship is because the man due to lack of training acts like female, and the female due to their lack of training is trying to act also like male, like Krishna. You know what I am saying?

A horse does whatever it does with an expert trainer. How did they do it? Because you walked out into the corral, you know, corral where they keep the horses? Right, that fence? And then you stood there, attention, and he says, "All right, ladies, I want a hundred push-ups, right now!" And that's what broke the horse, yeah? It works on boys in the army, but it won't work on horses. Right? There is a way of dealing with a horse that you train the horse. Does that make sense? So if the woman isn't dealt with as a woman, then she won't manifest the qualities of one. Does that make sense? Men make women. Man behaves properly, a woman can be a woman. Does that make sense? So if the men don't act like men, the women can't act like women. And profit is in the difference. I buy a product for one forint, I sell it for one forint, what's my profit? Not so much. Okay, I am a man, I make my woman, my wife into a man, what's the profit? Zero. I buy the stock for one forint, I sell it for ten, more profit. I sell it for a hundred forint, or a thousand, or a million. The more the difference, the greater the profit, the more the man is a man, the woman is a woman, the more that exchange then satisfies that particular need. Do you understand? In the Vedic concept, masculinity is an attitude, femininity is an attitude. Therefore that's the basis of the relationship, is the attitude. The modern, the only real way you can tell the difference between a man and a woman is based on particular anatomical appendages. Right? Therefore the relationship where they can get profit in the difference is only physical, because mentality, there is no difference. Does that make sense? But in the Vedic then because of how they are dealing is, therefore that male-female exchange basically is happening on the emotional platform. Right? So it's the center, from that then the intellectual expands, the sensual expands, but the emotional is the basis. Modern, it's sexuality is the basis, not even sensuality. Modern man should in no way fool himself that he has ever physically satisfied a woman. You know what I am saying? So therefore, even though it's said that this is their main thrust of everything, then they are not actually getting what they are looking for. So unless a man behaves like a man, a woman can't behave like a woman. Conjugal rasa is not tasted. Therefore four marriages. Popular around this place. And then the only reason you don't go beyond that, you are too old and tired to start again, so you just put up with it. So you become humble and this and that because you have to live with it, so therefore it works. And if they'd done that in the first marriage then it would have worked, and they wouldn't have to bother with the other 2-3 marriages.

Prabhu: If a man is a man, is it possible for him to marry any woman who is also woman, because he is able to lead her, or there is still... The compatibility is still important to... So can it happen that man is a man and a woman is a woman, and still they can't work together because they are not compatible?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Can, it just takes much more work. You know what I am saying? But man is a principle, woman is a principle, it can work. But the closer their natures are together, the more compatible, the more easy it is, natural it is to make it work. Right? That's why you get somebody with high compatibility, but the marriage didn't work. Or those with lower compatibility and it's working. It's a matter of endeavor put into it. So if you had a high compatibility and high endeavor, you'd have a very nice marriage. The chart only shows compatibility, it's nothing to do with what you do with it. I go to the market, I buy all the best vegetables and grains and spices and port it from here and there, most expensive, best quality, I put it all in the kitchen. So the potential is, something fabulous could be cooked, but it's still up to the individual to do it. Just because you have it, doesn't mean it's done. That's the mistake. "Oh, we have great compatibility, so we don't have to endeavor." No, you have to endeavor just as much as anyone else. You know what I am saying? That's the point. So if you endeavor, then you get better results. But it's suggested you don't go below 50 percent compatibility. You know what I am saying? Nobody should say, "Oh, if you just work a little harder..." Someone who has a perfect marriage, they can say that. Anybody else shouldn't sanction anything below 50 percent, and if the marriage falls apart, it should be that leader's fault.

Prabhu: But...

HH BVPS Maharaja: But! [Laughter]

Prabhu: But what should be done when there is a lady who hasn't found a suitable husband, fiancee for years and there is a nice boy with 20 percent compatibility and there is no chance that the girl would find another one, and what should be done in that case?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Check in another temple, check another yatra.

Prabhu: Or check another astrologer... [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, you could... Can, but still...

Prabhu: I don't have this attachment that "All Eger ladies should get married to Eger boys and...

HH BVPS Maharaja: That would be nice.

Prabhu: But in my practice of leadership I have met many cases when compatibility was just 20 percent or around that number. I wouldn't curse them if they divorced, they will remain my friends...

HH BVPS Maharaja: But they can't hold any position in the society, can't do any service, can't do any Deity worship, can't be a brahmana, can't be nothing, because you screwed up.

Prabhu: Yes. And if I don't sanction the marriage, don't allow the marriage?

HH BVPS Maharaja: That's a thing, if they do it on their own, then that's their problem. You know what I am saying? What people do on their own, it's out of your hands. You know what I am saying? My point is, you sanction it, you are responsible. You don't sanction it, they do it anyway, that's their problem. The consequences go to them. You sanction it, it goes to you. Right? If everything was good and everything like that and they've been trained nicely, then you are free basically because you've done your best, you've set them up, you've trained them, you've done everything you could, now it's their business to make it run. You have a proper plane, you have a proper pilot, you taught them how to fly, now they fly nicely or not, that's their problem. But you don't train them and then you let them fly and there is a problem, then it's your responsibility. You know what I am saying? In other words, if it's a bad match, you say "No", then you have no responsibility. If it's a good match, everything is lined up, everyone is trained properly and it doesn't work, you also don't have any responsibility. But if it's a bad match and you say it's okay, then you have responsibility. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: I have to begin a new life. I have to start over...

HH BVPS Maharaja: The phoenix? The point is is, the social structure is a big responsibility, and every individual has to take it seriously. So those who take it seriously, that's your community, and then those who take it less seriously, then they are, you know, how you say? Take part in the community as to whatever degree they can. Because at any time someone can become serious. You know what I am saying? But it's not up to one person to do it, it's up to everybody, everybody has the responsibility to take seriously the culture and practice it. So individual has their responsibility, the leaders have their responsibility. Very hard to be a leader if no one will follow, and if you have so many followers, very hard to get anywhere without a leader. So then they work together. Does that make sense? That's what makes it dynamic. So those who are willing to work, that's where you start and you build from there. Because just because someone has political or economic interest, that's not enough to be socially involved. You actually have to fit the proper mood. You know what I am saying? Just because someone wants to be in charge, or someone has money, that doesn't make them qualified to run the community. They should know how and make that endeavor to run the community. Does that make sense? Leadership is automatically seen and appreciated, at least by other leaders or those who want to follow. So-called leaders, so-called followers, very hard to understand what leadership is. Is that okay?

Prabhu: Hypothetically, theoretically...

HH BVPS Maharaja: [Laughter]

Prabhu: So the point is that the wife follows the husband...

HH BVPS Maharaja: The wife follows the husband.

Prabhu: Yes, I mean the husband is a good leader and the wife is being okay also... How to apply the same motive to leadership? If the followers are not satisfied, or upset, angry, have problems, is this a fault of leadership, isn't it?

HH BVPS Maharaja: In theory you could say, yes. That's as long as they are leader and they are followers, then you could say that there is something wrong here. Or, you could say is they are good followers, they are good leaders, but they are not well matched. Just like husband and wife are matched. He maybe a good husband, she maybe a good wife, you have to make sure you get as close enough together that the gap is easily bridged. Right? So you have to look. But if they are not followers, they are not a leader, then that's another thing. But if everybody is sincere, even if they are not, it will work. May not be as dynamic, but it will function, means, pleasantly. No ecstasy, just pleasant, okay.

Mataji: We've been talking about relationships and we see that relationship between husband and wife or leaders and followers or senior devotees and junior devotees, the relationships are sometimes based on diplomacy and not on sincerity. How should we relate to that? And in this case, if our sense of security is damaged?

HH BVPS Maharaja: What's been left out of here it's like this, there is sincerity, there is diplomacy, what about sincere diplomacy? Lack of diplomacy can create insecurity. Diplomacy without sincerity will create insecurity. So the real point of security is sincerity, not diplomacy. Does that make sense? So that's the point is that diplomacy is a normal part of life, you use it basically at every moment of your life. You know what I am saying? You see something that's nice, you appreciate what's nice about it. You wouldn't do it, but you appreciate what's nice. Right? Does that make sense? So diplomacy simply means that you say something that the other person... Or you say your point in such a way that the other person will appreciate what you are saying, because relationship, that's truth. Saying whatever comes up in my mind and falls out of my mouth, that's not truth, that's called uncultured. Nowadays modern man has come up with this weird concept of truth, and the more this truth is used, the more the society is destroyed. So if it breaks relationships it's false. In fact, it's demoniac, it maybe fact, but it's factual demoniacness. Truth is defined by God, what is in relationship to God, that's truth, anything else is false. The pious, most nice, most considerate, kind, affectionate approach, if it's not in connection to Krishna, is a lie. And anything in connection to Krishna is truth. Now, you try to package that truth as nicely as possible, that's cultured, that's sophisticated, that's refined. Just being able to say whatever you want, that's aboriginal. You know what I am saying? Unsophisticated means, you don't know how to say it in a pleasant way. No one ever said the wild Germanic tribes that invaded Europe from Central Asia were ever civilized, no one has ever blamed them of that fault. Right? So what a bunch of uncivilized tribals say is truth, cannot be taken seriously by any practitioner of Krishna consciousness. Truth is established by God, not by political correctness, but political correctness used in the service of God, that's cultured. And not using it is uncultured, maybe Krishna conscious, but little rough. In Vrindavan, they do have aboriginals, they do live on the other side of Govardhan, and they do walk around with their chest exposed, aboriginals. On this side of Govardhana live the gopis who are dressed nicely, talk nicely, behave nicely. Does that make sense? So they are Krishna conscious, they are there, but they are aboriginals, they live in the forest. Is that okay?

So the point is is that every word you say is diplomatic, even if you are yelling and screaming, you have a particular effect that you are trying to get from that yelling and screaming. But if you don't know the science of diplomacy, it might not work. You get angry with the husband and you say, "I don't wanna see you, get out of here," and then he walks out of the room, walks out of the house, that wasn't exactly what you meant. What you meant was, "The attitude that you are having now and the behavior you are having now, I do not wanna have anything to do with." So that means, one is being diplomatic by saying, "Get out of here, I hate you, I don't wanna see you." But unless the man knows the translation of your diplomacy, then your diplomacy will fail. You know what I am saying? That's the whole point. Diplomats know what the language is. "Yes, we are not exactly satisfied with the terms of the condition" means "I think it's socks." So like that. So diplomacy is always used, it's sincerity that is the point.

The kid just, you know, has made a picture in the 1st grade, and the mother is telling how fabulous it is. The enthusiasm the kid put into it, the endeavor they put, that was first class, but the result is still first grade art. You won't find it on the Sistine Chapel. You know what I am saying? Michelangelo was not up there with crayons. Does that make sense? So that's the point. If the mother just said, "Whoo, this is a piece of junk," means she is a good mother? And that's truth, you know, just speaking the truth. "I had to say what was in my heart." So if your heart is a black hole of despicable bad qualities, who wants to see it? What is your right that others have to see your heart? Who said? I mean, if everyone has got to come over and look at my garbage can, I mean it's just the most filthiest, stinkiest, everyone's got to come and see it! Who said? Who said speaking truth is your right? You wanna speak it, hey, go out in the forest, yell and scream all you want. But where is it written that you have the right that others have to listen to whatever falls out of your mouth? Does that make sense? That's why truth rattles around in your head and diplomacy comes out of your mouth. Is that okay? So what you are looking for is sincerity, or truth and sincerity. "Oh, how do you like my saree?" "Yeah, yeah, great, okay, let's go!" Would that be satisfying? Satisfied? No. It was the right words. What you wanna hear is, "Oh, how is this saree?" "Oh, yeah, that's great!" And then the wife will say, "Okay, let's go." You know what I am saying? That's the point.

Mataji: So if there is a certain context that in some way we know what the truth is but [indistinct 01:46:57] sincerity no matter how it's [indistinct 01:47:00]  So it's, even if it's, even if we know what the truth is, if something is said sincerely, with a sincere mood we accept it, because we are looking for sincerity...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, yeah, because we are looking for a relationship.

Mataji: But then the question comes up, can I be more sincere than I am in reality?

HH BVPS Maharaja: No [Laughter]. To men, yes, to women, no. Because men don't question, women do. That's why that brings up why women will re-question. [Laughter] Because the guy said, "So..." Like this, and then he says this whole long thing and then he goes... [Laughter] No, no it's okay. It's funny. No, it's okay. I figured at the end that must be what's going on... It's funny. [Indistinct 01:49:05] That's their sincerity, otherwise, security is lost. You know what I am saying? Because sincerity establishes confidence. Does that make sense? Therefore there is particular words of sincerity, particular tone of voice of sincerity. But that can be learned, therefore you have these swab smooth talking guys that can always catch girls, but they don't keep them. Right? Because they are not actually sincere, they've learned the art of sincerity, but they are not actually sincere. Does that make sense? Does that make sense to you? So applying that therefore you see is that the wife is expecting that the husband will say, "Oh, that's a nice saree." But if she doesn't, then if the mood is good, then she'll say, "Oh, how do you like my saree." As long as he gives a good answer, then she is satisfied. Okay, so that's brought us up to the point now, but if always the same thing is said, which is appreciated, but they wanna check it. So, "Oh, how do you like the saree?" "Oh, it's great!" And the guy thinks, "Okay, job done." And then she says, "What do you like about it?" And then he is going, "Oh my God!" [Laughter] "Yeah, I like the color," or "I like the pattern," or something, he has to prove that he likes it. "Oh, what do you like about the pattern?" If there is any depth or he just said that? "Oh, I like the little paisleys."

Translator: Pai...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Paisleys.  Those are paisleys. Yeah, it's a paisley. Those represent mango, just for everybody who wants to know. "And so you don't like the little flowers?" "No, no, no, I like the flowers also." "No, you don't like the flowers, you only like the paisleys." So basically when you get it where he is grubbling completely on the ground, then she goes, "Oh, okay," and goes. And he wonders, "What was that?" So that's to check sincerity. Right? So sincerity is what's looked for. Does that make sense? Like he goes into... Oh, you wanted to say something?

Mataji: It's just wanted... What if the men sincerely don't care about the saree?

HH BVPS Maharaja: What if they sincerely don't care about the saree? Then he is sincerely gonna be in some serious trouble, and she is sincerely not going to talk to him until he does, or she is going to rip off the saree and go put something else on and never touch that again, it can turn into compost unto floor where she dropped it. Because she is not gonna pick it up, you don't like it, you pick it up, you throw it out. Like that. Point is is, why does she have a saree that he doesn't like?

Mataji: Not that he doesn't like, he doesn't care so much.

HH BVPS Maharaja: He doesn't care? Well, then he better start caring. Right? What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. [Laughter] Does that make sense? Just like, he is gonna like her food, he is gonna like her dress, he is gonna like everything. He is gonna like her hair, he is gonna like her makeup, he is gonna like... Okay.

Prabhu: (In Hungarian)

HH BVPS Maharaja: Another hypothetical situation?

Prabhu: I hope that I will be able to formulate the question appropriately. Did Srila Prabhupada lead his married life in the same Vedic way, did he lead his family in the same way? Because we get the picture that he was sitting on the upper floor, reading Bhagavatam and he was only  concerned about his spiritual life and preaching, while his wife was having tea in the ground floor, first floor and didn't care...

HH BVPS Maharaja: You heard that in brahmachari class?

Prabhu: [Laughter] Yes. The picture that I got is that the husband is very Krishna conscious, practicing Krishna consciousness in a very determined way, listening to Bhagavatam and he has to make his wife Krishna conscious too. And so starting from that I knew some couples who did that, associate simply in that way, that while associating they were listening to Srimad Bhagavatam, they were reading Srimad Bhagavatam to one another and...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, that's fine, but once they got married...

Prabhu: [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: You know what I am saying? Point is is if you just wanna read Bhagavatam and preach to somebody about Bhagavatam, why would you get married? You know what I am saying?

Prabhu: Yes.

HH BVPS Maharaja: And if the woman just wanted to hear Bhagavatam, why would she get married? You know what I am saying? She doesn't have to pick up any dirty socks, she doesn't have to wipe off the toilet seat every time she wants to use it, I mean, life is a lot easier without marriage. [Women laughing] You know what I am saying?

Prabhu: Yes.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Right? One gets married because of that need of male-female support. Does that make sense? The point is is, you are dealing, therefore you deal nicely.

Kardama Muni, pukka brahmachari, you can't find any fault in his practice of brahmacharya, his austerities. But he found that still within his heart was that desire for feminine association. He approached the Lord. And then arrangement was made, he got married. But his point was is to finish up this desire by connecting it to Krishna, so it dissolves, so then he can leave and go back to Godhead. Right? Isn't it? He got married, right?

Now, Svayambhuva Manu, it's a side point, but how did he arrange the marriage? He picked the boy, and that's it, bas, finished. "I am the head of the house, it goes my way, my way - the highway?" Right? Or, he took his wife and his daughter to make sure that they were also satisfied with what he thought was a good arrangement. Right? Then they are married.

She is a princess, she is the granddaughter of Lord Brahma. Of course, he is the son of Brahma, but she is a princess. You can imagine a kshatriya who is the granddaughter of Lord Brahma, what facility they'd have. No? Right? Because you see later, when they arrange for her 2,000 bridesmaids to decorate her, she wasn't going, "Oh, too many people." She was perfectly fine with 2,000 girls dressing her, bathing her, putting on her make-up, 2,000! Right? Okay.

So this girl then goes and he is a hermit, he lives in an ashrama, a little grass hut and that's it. And he does yajnas, so his wife then just assist him in all that. Her fancy fine hair, the fineness of her skin, all these different things she just let go. Her hair became matted, her skin became dirty. So she has done that for some time, then Kardama Muni is satisfied that this is a really good girl. Right? A good mother produces a good son. Right? She produced Kapila Muni, God, can't get better than that, right?

And so in that then seeing that then he arranged all this maidservants and everything, he is a yogi. So according to his ability, if he had just been a regular human being in a little grass hut, that's as good as it gets. But he is a mystic, so then he according to his ability then arranges a flying palace that can move anywhere in the universe and has all amenities that are there in the universe inside. And he arranges for 2,000 maidservants to decorate her and take care of her, right? And he is only interested to go back to Godhead. Do you understand? She is a woman. If he needs her, then he has to take care of her needs. Right? That's why the girl is always trying to find out if you need her, because if you need her, you will take care of her needs.

So even though Prabhupada's wife is sitting downstairs drinking tea and eating biscuits, who provided the tea and biscuits? Where did the cup come from, where did the platter come from, where did the table come from? Do you understand? I'm sure it was even descent tea. And how could she be so confident that when he says "Tea or me," she is so confident in the relationship that he'll pick her, that when she jokingly says, "Tea," he takes it literally and walks out. Do you understand? That means, you had one seriously confident woman. That means, seriously protected, so all that was going on while he was sitting upstairs studying the Bhagavatam.

It's just like this, let us say, we have a good meal, nice preparations, well served, nice atmosphere, that's what you see. But for that to be there, what was behind that? How much planning, shopping, preparation, cleaning was there to get those 10 preparations on the table? So those who don't know cooking note that point, they think the food comes on the table by magic. So they appreciate what's on the table, but those who are expert at cooking know what went into all that and appreciate even more what's on the table.

In other words, you were told the story in that way by someone who didn't know what grihasha life was. Because otherwise, how is it holding together? How did he have... What? Five kids. You don't have kids if the wife doesn't like you. Right? Wives don't like you if you don't take care of them. Does that make sense?

But the point is is, it's secondary. You know what I am saying? So the primary is what is focused on. You know what I am saying? Does that make sense? Discussion is always on the primary, unless it goes into a secondary discussion, so therefore, this is the point, let us re-adjust, because in here then we look at, "Well, Prabhupada just sits there, studies his Bhagavatam all day, teaches his wife and kids Bhagavatam and everything is perfect." Do you actually appreciate the greatness? Or is it just an excuse for not making any endeavor? Underlying the feeling that it generates? Okay, then, we are still on the air, how many hours do these things go...?

Prabhu: 24 hours [Laughter] [Indistinct 02:11:50]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Only 24 [Laughter]. Now let us try presenting... So therefore it's kind of like, "Yeah, you know, Prabhupada, he didn't care how he was living... He was like,  he just got in there, he was not one of these puffed-up [?] grihasthas." Right? But it's kind of like, okay, fired up brahmacharis, but did it inspire one to study Bhagavatam or do service or be responsible, or anything? I mean, think about it. All it generates is,  "Yeah, yeah, the women, they are just a distraction, you know..." What service was established? What service mood was established? What relationship was established? You know what I am saying? All one did was establish Sankarshana masculinity. Do you understand? But in Sankarshana there is no relationship, no active relationship. Does that make sense?

Let's look at it the other way. Here you have a man who is running his house perfectly. His wife is satisfied, she has all facility, he is running his business, he is making money, he has five children, you don't hear of any problems in his household life. On top of that he is publishing and writing books, preaching, inviting over senior vaishnavas from the Gaudiya community, discussing philosophy with them. Name me the grihastha doing that! That's how you take that example. It's not example how to be a tough, puffed-up brahmachari. This is how to be a first-class grihastha. If it was just him and his wife, no kids, then okay, you could say... Five kids! AND writing magazines, writing books, giving lectures, taking associatiation, supporting the temple, running his business, that's a grihastha.

Prabhu: Srila Prabhupada ki jaya...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Jaya, yeah! Now, does that inspire service attitude, a proper, what is a proper perspective? In other words, does the first example put householder life in perspective, or just the second one?

Prabhu: Second.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, that's how it's supposed to be used. Right? That's the point. The point that they want establish, you'd use someone else, you'd use Vishvanatha, or Raghunatha, because there, that was how you have everything and you walk out. Ragunatha Dasa Goswami, two uncles with no air, two men, they are just there, okay, they get 20 million gold coins per year in their pocket. Gold coin is about this big, how much is that worth here? Right? Not bad, gold coin like that probably weight 12 grams, you know, like that. Yeah, lot of money, yeah, like a thousand dollars. So you get 2 million thousand dollar coins every year, that would definitely put them in Ford's Magazine. They got it in gold, everybody else has it on paper, stocks, right? Somebody sneezes, your stocks evaporate. This is gold coins, it's real, it's there! No? Okay? His wife is as beautiful as Indra's wife, and they are not just saying this, they are meaning it. He left that. That's where you take your example.

Or, Vishvanatha. They married him young, he is ignoring his wife, because he is just chanting Hare Krishna, right? Senior relatives come and say, you should, you know, fulfill the duty of her womanhood. Right? So he agrees. So she dresses up, comes to bed with him, and then he starts talking about Bhagavatam, because the perfection is to become God conscious. And he talks the whole night about Bhagavatam, so he is in bed with a girl as beautiful also as Indra's wife, who is ready for a conjugal relationship, and is dressed for it, and he is talking Bhagavatam. How many grihasthas here, the wife takes off the clothes, says "I wanna do it," and you could sit there and talk Bhagavatam all night, raise your hands, go for it! No hand? That's how these are used. They left the grihastha ashrama, they had no kids, like that, it's a different thing. They didn't wanna get married in the first place, it was just the tradition of the family, they were married. You don't use that example for someone who is a brahmachari, wanted to get married, and then wants to still look tough and cool to his so-called popped-out brahmachari friends. It just struck me... You know the translation of "popped-out"? No? Okay. It's coming from the 70s and 80s, "popped-out" means brahmachari who is completely lusty and just can't hold himself together. You know, it's like, he has something that ... Yeah, so when you say "popped-out" brahmachari, means he is completely lusty. Does that make sense?

So that's how you use these examples in shastra, because you see, in those three renditions, there is an inspiration that no matter how beautiful the wife is or how much wealth and all that, if it's unfavorable for Krishna consciousness, it can be left and they never turned back. That's what that example is for. And the other example of Prabhupada is how being a perfect grihastha doing all those duties like that, still he found time for studying Bhagavatam, writing articles, making his magazine, preaching, associating with the Vaishnavas. Okay? Good?

Prabhu: I've been taking advice from different grihasthas in the grihastha ashrama, and some devotees said that actually it's the duty of the husband to take care of the wife's emotional needs, it doesn't mean to be constantly in maya on emotional platform to address the needs of the wife. But then other devotees, also grihasthas, senior devotees, even gurus say that actually grihastha ashrama is maya and when the wife is on the mental platform they should just be sharp and it's like the battlefield... So how should we...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Point is is, you are going to take care of... You've married a woman, right? So of course, the soul comes along with as... How you say? It's part of the package deal, but you didn't marry the soul, you married a gross and subtle body. So as a husband your duty is to take care of that gross and subtle body, so that it becomes God conscious. Women have emotions, it's part of their needs, so that means, their sensual, emotional and intellectual needs have to be taken care of. Otherwise, why would you get married? Do you know that sannyasa is also illusory? Sannyasa means a person who is attached to detachment. Detachment still is not Krishna, you have to be attached to Krishna, right? But in other words, you are engaging your attachments in the Lord's service. Therefore sannyasa is also maya, so is brahmacharya, since when is the soul a sannyasi or a brahmachari or a vanaprastha? What is the material body made out of? Spiritual energy? It's maya! So anything you see, touch, smell and can understand is all maya! That building is made out of maya. Right? But what makes that building that we don't call it maya, even though it's made out of material energy? Because it's connected to Krishna. So the difference between maya and Krishna consciousness -  is it connected to Krishna or not? So therefore we go to the market and we go, "Oh, all these potatoes, all maya! All these cabbages, maya! Everyone selling them - maya! The whole market is maya! The city is maya! It's all maya!" [Laughter] Right? And then you'll say, "Huh! Staunch." Right? Or you'd say,"Crazy." So now, what does the Krishna conscious marketer do when they go to the market? "Here is a nice potato that I can engage in  Krishna's service. Here is a nice cabbage." Of course, the top of the line, the red peppers. Right? Like that, isn't it? So therefore something only becomes not maya if it's connected to Krishna, so if one ignores the emotional needs of the wife, what Krishna consciousness has been performed? What? Nothing! So unless you can connect those emotions to Krishna... Does that make sense? A car, it will just naturally go wherever you want, or do you have to drive it there? Right? The car could crash into the building, could go off the road, you have to keep it on the road, right? And when you go around the corner, it's work, you have to keep it going. Then? That's what being a grihastha means. Otherwise, why would God make a grihastha ashrama if it was so maya? Why would Prabhupada and Bhaktivinoda Thakura been grihasthas if it was such Maya? Why would Pandavas, why would all the Prajapatis, why would Brahma? Right? Does that make sense? In our line, Narada Muni definitely is a brahmachari, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, others may or may not have been. I think, Madhva also, he was also not married.

Prabhu: Jayapataka Swami.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Do you understand? So then why would that happen if it's all maya? Bhagavatam is full of stories of all just hard-core sannyasis and brahmacharis, right? Every last story? And Bhagavad-gita is only about brahmacharis, Krishna was a brahmachari, Arjuna was a brahmachari, everybody on that battlefield was a brahmachari. You know what I am saying?

Prabhu: The difficulty now is that I received this advice from senior devotees, and it's not very nice to doubt them, so what should be done?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Well, at this point we either stop the conversation or we go to another point. I am not gonna be blamed for going against the local authorities. So next question.

Prabhu: Is it a concomitant relationship between the grihastha ashrama and garbhadhana samskara.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Garbhadhana samskara and grihastha ashrama?

Prabhu: So when I heard the lecture of Bhakti Caru Swami in Mayapur, he was saying, I remember hearing that grihastha [indistinct 02:31:37] children illicit sex, which explains this point...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Say again, means if they don't have...

Prabhu: Children...

HH BVPS Maharaja: ...according to garbhadhana it's illicit sex?

Prabhu: If they don't have children at all, that's illicit sex.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Erm, I don't... Point is is... The point that's being made is that a grihastha has children, their duty... Generally one gets married to have children. Because illicit sex generally means sex that's not according to religious principles, that's the general definition that Prabhupada gives, that sex not according to religious principles is illicit sex. So one has to take what's the point being made. The point is is that grihasthas according to tradition and according to the rules have children. Like that. That's generally how the scriptures would describe. They wouldn't say it's like illicit... Means, you could say, it is as sinful as illicit sex, that you might be able to say, but to say it is, probably just was ... How you say? The presentation what they were trying... You would have to take what they were trying to say. Does that make sense? Like that.

Prabhu: The main point is that grihastha ashrama is meant for having children.

HH BVPS Maharaja: The grihastha ashrama is meant for having children. But in that point everybody should stick to their own needs. It's not a crusade. In other words, a boy that's grown up in a natural household environment, a prosperous... Prosperous meaning, emotionally balanced environment, and a girl has grown up in such an environment, if they get married, basically you can say they will always have children. But you'll find in some that have grown up in a very strange environments that they grow up in these days, they are not strong enough to live on their own, they need to be married, but they just can't relate to beyond that. It's not ideal, but if that's what it takes, then it's used, but it's not professed.

Prabhu: It's not the standard.

HH BVPS Maharaja: It's not the standard, but at the same time is, it's not a problem. So in other words, we are not saying, everybody has got to have children, or we are saying whoever has children is in maya. The natural thing is to have children, but some people are so screwed up before they came to Krishna consciousness and marriage that they just can't handle it. But they've grown up in the grihastha environment, they are most comfortable in the grihastha environment. You know, so they are kind-of like vanaprasthas. Does that make sense? Yeah? Anything else or...?

Prabhu: What happens with a confidential devotee [02:36:27] servant, friend, marriage relationship after we leave our bodies?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Say it again?

Mataji: What happens to our relationships with servants, with our friends, with our marriage partners after we leave our bodies?

HH BVPS Maharaja: It goes back to the universal form. That's where it's from. Was that what you were looking for, or...?

Prabhu: [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: You wanna know if they come with you or something? Your wife is gonna run around after you through the universe?

Prabhu: [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, you go back to Godhead, right? When you go back to Godhead, so you want to have that same family there as here?

Prabhu: No.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Then what do you care what happens to them? [Laughter] Do you understand? Means, these are the positions of conditioning that you are in in this lifetime. And that has generated particular needs of the individual in their conditioned state. Therefore these individuals cooperate together to engage their conditioned nature in the Lord's service. So the goal is to become Krishna conscious, once you are doing that, what do you need it for? You know what I am saying? You have a thorn, you take another thorn to take that thorn out. And then what do you do with them? Throw them. Does that make sense? So in this life they have meaning. But in that life they don't have that meaning. If they are all Krishna conscious, then you will all be together doing service for Krishna, but who is what, that is something else. Do you understand, you'll be friends, but you won't have those family relationships. Okay? What time is it?

Prabhu: Five to three.

HH BVPS Maharaja:  Five-two-three? Okay, yesterday it was three past four.

Mataji: Seven past four...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Something like that. Last question, and then we will stop.

Prabhu: You mentioned that men should behave like men, men should be men, and then the women will be women. I read a verse in the Bhagavatam, it said that women are even willing to kill their own child to achieve their purposes, so is this what... The purpose of grihastha ashrama.... [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: ...is to bring your wife to the point where she kills the child and goes off with your friend? [Laughter]

Prabhu: Brahmacharis hear this and then they want to stay away from this, and the men experience this within the grihastha ashrama, and then they become vanaprasthas and sannyasis. So to experience the feminine nature... [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: That's one way of looking at it, yes. [Laughter] But one would hope that one would run the ashrama so nicely that they wouldn't end up killing you and the children, going off with someone else. The point is is, it's like this. Let us say, you have a person that works on construction on high-rised buildings.

Translator: High-raised?

HH BVPS Maharaja: High-raised buildings, you know, multi-story, skyscrapers. So do they need to know, to be successful at their job, the dangers of what happens if they fall off one of those girders or anything like that? Does a driver need to know the results of improperly using the car and crashing the car? Does a chemist need to know the effects, the devastating effects of the various chemicals he is using, if they happen to touch his skin? Does that make sense? So that's why you know this fact. So you know, if you don't run it right, where it could go. And if you run it correctly, then you might be lucky. Do you understand? But the point is is if you run it... It's only if you run it properly do you really see this. Those that don't run it properly will see angry ladies and this and that, they can see that, but there is the point is that, "That's this lady, but another lady that behaves nicely would be different." You know what I am saying?

Vanaprastha and sannyasa means, "I understand the nature of ladies. Not this one. I've learned it through this one, therefore I owe a lot and I am grateful to this person." But "I don't need women," not "I don't need this woman." Do you understand? A naishtika brahmachari means, he doesn't need women, not that he doesn't need a particular one. Does that make sense? That's the point is that unless you deal with the nature of women, how do you actually know what it is? If by hearing you realize, why would you get married? But if you are married, then only by dealing with it then you'll understand. That's why it's also said, first-class man remains brahmachari, second-class gets married, because first-class heard, second-class has to see it. Does that make sense? But they are both first-class brahmacharis. Okay? Does that make sense?

In other words, you have to know what you are dealing with. So in other words, if they are not protected, and they are not happy, you don't wanna know how far it goes. That's one explanation of where it could go. Right? You know what I am saying? Look what happened with Shiva and Parvati? She wanted to go to the yajna. Shiva said no. So she kept taking all these different forms, you know, and when she got to the one where she is stark naked, has cut off her own head, is holding that head, and the blood spurting out of her neck she is drinking, then Shiva said, "All right, go." [Laughter] So the point is is, if you are gonna work with it you have to know what you are dealing with. That's why I said, the person who is successful with horses knows if I don't deal right, I can get kicked, I can get thrown off the horse. Right? Therefore they generally, it doesn't happen to them, because they know what they are doing. And if it does happen to them, then they know what to do about it or are not disturbed, because that's the way horses are. Does that make sense?

So if your wife kills your children, runs off with another man, then you should go, "It happens, okay." Like that. Then you should consider, "Okay, should I get married again or should I  seriously take... consider vanaprastha?" Right? Not that, "Oh, no, she did this, oh, that's crazy! How is that possible?" They told you it was possible.They told you that before you started. [Laughter] You know, so when it happens, then you go, "Okay, maybe it's time for vanaprastha." Right? And we are grateful, because she is able to give us that realization. Maybe not in a very pleasant way. She did her duty, now you have to do yours. Does that make sense? So on this pleasant note... Is that okay? Or does anybody wanna say something to counterbalance that? [Laughter] No? It's okay? Okay. So he'd just be lucky that he wasn't poisoned also, right?

Mataji: Hiranyakashipu was a man, and he wanted to kill his child.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes. [Laughter] Okay, so on that we'll end here. [Laughter] Now everybody is... Things are put into perspective. [Laughter]

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya! Samaveta-bhakta-vrinda ki jaya! Jaya Nitai-Gaura-premanande Hari Haribol!

Prabhu: His Holiness Bhaktividya Purna Maharaja ki jaya!

[After-lecture conversation, starting 02:50:50, many things indistinct]

Mataji: ... had children and then get divorced and they heard that psychologically he explained that... Because man who was divorced man and they had children the man, some men tend to collect the children with the wife, I mean they are...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes, but this... But these things, they are very feminine. You know what I am saying? Man wouldn't do that, a woman would do that, so these are men that grew up...

Mataji: [Indistinct]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, yeah, that's what I am saying, because these are too much feminine element in them, so therefore they actually react like women, like that, that's all. Does that make sense?

Mataji: Yeah [02:51: 35] in the frustration that their relationship with their kids is through the wife, it seems that relationship has come to end they just can't deal with it...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Well, that's probably also, she got the kids.

Mataji: Yes, she got the kids and then she got the right to see that... And he just... he got the right to see them on weekends.

HH BVPS Maharaja:  Yeah, but the point is, if he had gotten custody of the kids he might not have [02:51:55] But that's the whole thing, because then it's not natural. But that's because of this, but if he had another woman that completely distracted him so much, he couldn't care less about the wife and kids. You know what I am saying? Maybe later, once the relationship mellows down, then he would want to see the kids, but what it's saying here is that the woman, in having developed her relationship with another man, to get that relationship, if she had to kill her husband and kids, she could do that, if it was that important to her. That's the meaning of it, so that means, they're that intensely needful of relationships that they could go that far, that would be the other way of taking it. So in other words, better the husband makes the relationship go right.

Mataji: Yeah.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Because if he is doing nice and this and that, then generally she wouldn't kill them.

Mataji: [Laughter] How nice!

HH BVPS Maharaja: Unless she thought that it wouldn't work. You know, it's a complicated thing. The point is is, that is a possibility, one just has to be aware [Laughter] In other words, don't make your wife too upset. But it's not by anger, that is because there is a lover, that example is given in that. It's not that she is so angry, therefore she will kill her husband and...

Mataji: To achieve something, to achieve another... [Indistinct 02:53:35] ...the experience is so good.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, yeah, that's because that one is so much greater, better, and the present one would get in the way of that. If it wouldn't get in a way, then they would walk out and leave, because they are attached. They just wanna expand, so they wanna have all that plus more. But this is that this will get in the way of that and that's so much greater than this, therefore then that might happen.

(Break) (End)