Hariḥ Oṁ

saha nāvavatu

saha nau bhunaktu

saha vīryaṁ karavāvahai  

tejasvi nāvadhītamastu mā vidviṣāvahai

oṁ śāntiḥ śāntiḥ śāntiḥ

Oṃ jaya śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda

Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare 

Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare

HH Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Svāmī Mahārāja: Jaya! Śrīla Prabhupāda kī jaya!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, please!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: It will just naturally be, is that as you go down then they include less. So the brāhminical, it's about the, specifically about the training and raising in consciousness, it's about affecting the consciousness, uplifting the consciousness. And then to do that people have to be in a protected environment, it has to be, you have to have... How you say? Facilities and all that, right? So it is natural, the brāhminical one can include the kṣatriya and vaiśya. The kṣatriya one then on its own, it may not include the brāhminical, but it naturally means, if you create a protected environment, economics will flourish. While then in the, if you take the vaiśya one, then it is going to be just about economics being the goal, so that's where it becomes weak because the protection of the people is not part of their program. If by not protecting the people they will make more profit, they are easily going to do that. So that's the thing, is whatever makes profit for them, that's the whole point. Like you see, is that the vaccine is out and then politics is made not to use that vaccine. Why? Because then, you know, our vaccine will be used, and so then so many people can't get a vaccine because of these politics between these companies. Why? Not to protect the people, not to uplift their consciousness, just so they can make more money. So that's why then the corporate one has to be controlled by the administrative one, because otherwise they will sell their grandmother if it will make profit. So that's the whole thing, is there is no limit to what they will do to make profit. And even if the whole rest of the world crashes, as long as their little world and that remains, they are fine with that. So you have to have that.

But then in managing, if it is only managing and that goes smooth, but you are not uplifting the consciousness, it is still not enough. That's why the educational. So in the Varṇāśrama system all these things are there perfectly. If you establish the brāhminical, brāhminical will automatically establish the kṣatriyas who will create the environment. Vaiśyas, śūdras will happen anyway. If there is an opportunity, they will take it. Śūdras want money, vaiśyas are making money, so they will work for them. If there is a good environment, then the vaiśyas can trade in that. You can see, if there is a peaceful environment, trade goes on. But you see now in various parts of the world people are rioting and looting and that, how do you run businesses? It's really hard to run a business when today when I close shop everything is in the shop, but when I come tomorrow morning, there is nothing in the shop and the whole mall has been burnt down, right? So that's the whole thing, is that without the control of the government then it won't work. So that's why it is so important. So now again, addressing that question that Gurudāsa Prabhu had mentioned on that.... I think on the second day, is that well, what is the Vedic natural form of this strategic planning? It is called Varṇāśrama.

But since, you know, if you use Varṇāśrama everyone flips out, if you use strategic planning 'Oh,' then that's good. But it is just natural, the brāhmanas create the educational and improvement of the consciousness, which is happening because kṣatriyas are protecting the environment and that. And then in that the vaiśyas, then they are making money, they are paying their taxes, they are giving in charity. So the whole thing works very, very nicely. But in here the point that is being brought out is that the brāhminical culture is the most important, because that is the universal aspect that applies to everyone. So the āśrama system everybody uses, and then because of that everybody...

So, vaiṣṇavas are brāhmanas because they know Brahman, right? And then according to nature they are going to engage themselves accordingly. If they can just do their nature, they will do that. If they can't they will do next best, if they can't do that they are going to the next best after that. Someone has a brahminical nature, he can't do that, then he might be doing business, he might be doing this that - so many different things, whatever it takes to maintain himself in varṇa, so that in āśrama he can live his brāhminical lifestyle. So, therefore, protection, that is the... Kṣatriyas, that is their business. So you see is, the direct protection will be done by your presidents, your project leaders, whoever is heading up something, whoever managerially is in charge of something or administratively in charge, they protect those who work with them, those who work under them. But the direction for that, that it does go on nicely, is therefore then the brāhminical aspect that we have the strategy of everyone trying to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, because that's something you can always obtain. Everyone can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. You can't guarantee that everybody is going to be a billionaire, right? So that everyone will be very prosperous and this, that you can't guarantee, but you can make it at least as nice as possible, so it's as least trouble as possible. Is that, does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: See, the thing what you are dealing is, you don't have to have someone who is, they themselves are a committed demon. A kali-celā simply means that Kali takes advantage of their  misdirected understanding or consciousness and furthers his work. Because Kalirāja, he is in charge of Kali-yuga, and the four different yugas are there because people have different levels of consciousness of what they are interested in, right? At a particular time and space then, you have that cycle of saṁsāra, it is going around, and some people are more near the top, some people are going towards the bottom. So you want to have that position that a living entity can be satisfied in that particular position. Being satisfied means, they get the position they want, they will never be satisfied: you are in the material world. So then he takes advantage. Just like, let's say, a crowd is there, and because the crowd is there then criminals can go into the crowd. So it's not that the crowd is criminal, but the criminal things can take shelter of a crowd. So in the same way is, it is not that when we... That when you say 'kali-celās', that it means that the person themselves is a dedicated follower of Kalirāja. It just means that they are by some mistake allowing themselves to be influenced by the modes of nature that they do things that aren't necessarily beneficial for the movement. So that same person then by good association becomes more clear on that subject, he is no longer a kali-celā. So that would be a better way to look at it, that no one wants to act in a way that the modes of nature get the upper hand and we act in a way that is not beneficial for ourselves or for others. Because with that then it doesn't create all this difference here, because we are focused on the soul from the capacity that they are a servant of Kṛṣṇa and how to re-establish themselves in service to Kṛṣṇa, right?

Just in educational mode, I mean, structure can just focus on that you are the soul and that is all the further they are trying to get you. So the māyāvādīs, how they will be using it, or the Buddhist and that, that's all the further they will take. For the... What do you call it? For your fruitive workers education will be how to be pious, how to be God-conscious, but only as much as will get you good profits. So you see, pious, religious people and things like that, they tend to only take education up to there, how far education is useful for us to make material benefit. Then you see in the modern scenario, then education is being used to further the particular social, political, economic position that those in leadership feel is useful. It won't be theistic.

So we see here is that when we are saying it is an educational model, but it is a vaiṣṇava educational model, so that means we are educating people up to the level of pure consciousness, of pure devotional service. So that kind of position, that becomes of the real value. So then in that, then you need to have a protected environment - that's where all, anybody in the operational, they are supposed to create the environment for everybody to be, have an opportunity in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And then you see, by the efforts of the tactical elements they create the profit or the prosperity of those operational units by either improving the quality of the manpower, by money, by facilities, you know, like that. And then the technical, that just assists in getting these things done.

So it is just Varṇāśrama. But the problem is, if you present it as Varṇāśrama, there is already a problem with Varṇāśrama that some devotees don't see the importance or don't know how it works. And so, therefore, no use in trying to present it from that position, otherwise as soon as you understand... Because Manu talks about the relationship between the brāhmanas and the kṣatriyas: if that is correct, everything else will work. Everything else works. Even you just have a criminal society, they will create within themselves their own structures, their own things, they will create the economics and everything like that. So that vaiśya, śūdra element will be there. They will have all the things, but it's like the modern, it has all four of the positions in Varṇāśrama, but the emphasis is on the economic. So, therefore, education supports the economic, the general people supports the economic, administration, it is about the economic, so whatever is good for economics, that's what flies, right? While if you go back further in history, then it would be about what would be supportive of administration. And so, economics and the people have to support administration, the intellectual has to support administration. But in the Vedic then it is all about everybody coming to that transcendental platform. So that is the main thing, everything is supporting that. But in so doing you need all four platforms, but you have to know the hierarchy. For money you can't break down administration or knowledge, and at the same time is then you know... So higher than the economics will be administration, but you can't take what is good for administration but bad for consciousness. So you have to see, consciousness will be first, knowledge, consciousness, then the administrative, then the economic, and then... How you say? Skills, practical skills, that will always be the bottom. So we see, everybody has that, right? Means, the brāhmana, he organizes himself, he has his economics that he makes and he has his skills, but it is all in pursuance of that transcendental knowledge. So, therefore, all devotees, even if their conditioned nature is of kṣatriya, vaiśya or śūdra, they are still using that for elevating their consciousness in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the uniqueness of the the Daiva-varṇāśrama system: it is the only system that is actually equal because it addresses...

See, your modern context of equal means everybody has exactly the same position and facility, though it never happens, they never do it, they always have two positions, they never only have a class... They talk classless, that means they don't want anyone in charge except them, and everybody else is classless. So you can't have here this idea of classless society. But in the Vedic then you have the different positions, but it doesn't matter. So human life, that is the important thing, in human life elevating itself, and then human life, it is seen in the context of God consciousness and that it is God's world, therefore then all other species of life also come under the umbrella of this protection of the Vedic culture. So that means, even the animals, they have a peaceful society. It is said that in, like in Satya-yuga and that, or when there is a rule of a good king, even the animals try to be better behaved. They see the humans, the natural thing is, animals look up to humans. But nowadays humans behave so badly, then they just try to stay out of the way. But previously they looked up to the humans and tried to... Humans are behaving nicely, they try to behave nicely. They are animals, you know, how good they will do it? But you see, like in Vṛndāvana, all the different animals that are there, they are not bothering each other. So the tigers are there, but they are not bothering the other living entities, no one is bothering each other, they are all just serving Kṛṣṇa. So that's the thing, is that the Daivī-varṇāśrama is the only social system that will do that, but because it is doing something that all the others, of all the other systems simultaneously and elevating the consciousness, it is a much more sophisticated program. And so, it takes more training and more understanding. So, since we are professional spiritualists, this is what we should be able to do. And then within that, and because we are preaching in a wide range through society, then various individuals that come forward and they want to take part in this process, they have  their inherent natures, and they just engage themselves accordingly.

So you don't technically have to train somebody in management. You preach and managers will come forward. Managers know how to manage, just like businessman knows how to do business, you don't have to tell them how to do business, right? But a śūdra, he needs a certain quality of skill, and so who has what then that is what you do. Simple things like mopping the floor, that anybody can learn. But if someone wants to be an account... Knows how to be an accountant, he can do that. So we don't need to train ourselves in that. Sometimes devotees say, 'Oh, I will go out and get an engineering degree,' or this or that. We don't need to. We preach to engineers, they will join, they will do the work, they have so much more experience. Why should we spend... Means, you go to the school, you spend four years, then you have the internship and this and that, and by the time you know something it is 10-15 years, 20 years, and what have you done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Okay, you have done an engineering degree, but that temple you wanted to build was already built by someone else 15 years ago. So that is the whole thing, we don't have to. And then within that...

So the main training is how do you connect to Kṛṣṇa. And if there is something you can learn from others who know that. If you have a nature in management then by understanding the principles and associating with other managers you will be able to manage because you can't teach management in a school and make a manager. Just like you can't teach economics in a school and make a businessman, it's impossible. You run a course on, let's say, economics, if the person has an economic understanding, then by the class he becomes more aware and more quickly he can get things done. So instead of taking, let's say, five years to establish his business, he might do it in 18 months. But if you take someone who does not have any guṇa and karma in business, he can go to a million of these classes and he will never become a businessman, it just doesn't happen. You can say, 'Oh, but the MBA, they teach,' but they don't teach businessmen, they teach the people that the businessman hires, they teach middle management. So in the same way... But the devotional platform, that all souls are qualified for. So when we learn and understand about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all living entities can understand that brāhminical platform. And so that way everybody can live that lifestyle. Now, those who are more scholastic and scholarly, they may have a brāhminical varna, and so they can go into that more, and so that might be their occupation. But the point is is, everyone in the Vedic system, in the Daivī-varṇāśrama, they all understand the brāhminical platform. Therefore, out of eight positions in Varṇāśrama five are directly brāhminical. And then three are specific: you have a specific ability in administration, a specific ability in economics, or a specific ability in certain skills. So then you apply that in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, means, you use those three for your position to maintain yourself, and you use that within the mission to further yours and others' Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So we see, is that the system is natural, it is what is going on in the Vedic position. So why it becomes hard to understand, with Gurudāsa Prabhu's question, is that it becomes hard to understand for others if they try to approach it from from the corporate platform. They will never understand it because for them it is just economics. But if you approach it from this Vaiṣṇava educational point of view, then you just see Varṇāśrama. Because for vaiśyas, they don't care about Varṇāśrama any more than it will make them money. If Varṇāśrama will make money they will do it. Just like I remember in the 1960s when you had the hippies and they were getting into the natural lifestyle and organic farming, and cooperatives and all that, they had to do it themselves among themselves. I remember going to one hippie-run cooperative that only sold organic food. It was in somebody's house. So it was a big house, so upstairs was where they lived and downstairs was the shop. And being part of a co-op then you had to be a member, you had to put an x amount of hours a week doing things in the shop, and then you could buy from there,  and they had decent prices. And so that was there. Then I went, you know, joined the group, went and everything like that. Then coming back and visiting that place another 30 years later, then now there are three full supermarkets, big, huge, like a Tesco or something like that - big, that sell only organic food. So, in other words, when the vaiśyas didn't see that it is worth making money, you have a few crazy hippies that are talking about it. But once it gets traction a little bit in the 1990s when people start to get a little more health conscious and everything like that, and then into the knots (?) - now it's like it's worthwhile because you can sell organic for more. As long as you can make more profit off of it, the effort is worthwhile. So, therefore, it's not about morality for these persons. The morality is only inasmuch as you don't steal their profit, don't bother their business, that's all the more. But as far as morality on the level of dharma, that by doing these religious activities then you make profit, you have to be trained in that. So you do have your higher grade vaiśyas, like in India, they think like that, they are religious, but it is still fruitive. But on the modern thing they don't worry about that, they try to cut that out. That's why then the whole point of 'Varṇāśrama is not important' because it's dharma, they just want to look at artha, what will be the gain? But the point is, artha comes from dharma: you don't have a protected environment, you don't have business, you don't have economics. Stable environment: you find those countries that haven't had a war for a while, they have stable economies. And those countries that there is war, you don't talk about their economies. Like what is the economy in Afghanistan now? Right? We are not talking about this flourishing economy.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes. So, that's the whole difficulty, is that the whole system, it already has. Brāhmanas, their main business is studying and teaching, right? Kṣatriyas' main business is protecting the people. Vaiśyas' main business is to make profit without attachment and to give in charity, and śūdras, then their business is to assist the other three without complaining. Right? If there is a problem, of course, they can say something, but nowadays people just complain because you get profit from it. Means, what is it? You know, you had that whole big 'Black Lives Matter' in America and made agitation like that, they collected 90 million dollars off of that. And then we saw, the lady who was in charge of it bought herself 15 million dollars worth of property, and then after that you don't hear about 'Black Lives Matter' anymore because everybody figured out, 'Okay, now we know what's going on.' So that's the whole thing, it just becomes an agitation just for their own benefits. So that's why śūdras shouldn't do that. They have a valid complaint, yes, you make your complaint. But you don't just agitate because you can, because there is so many of you.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, like that. So they just use it for their own profits. So what the point is, the Vedic system is, no one makes profit where it's not their business. Just like medicine is not run by vaiśyas. Have you... You have gone to an Āyurvedic doctor and that? You know, he will see you himself, like that, he may have assistants that help with the medicine or not, it doesn't cost that much, unless it is some kind of special medicine that is very rare, that, it costs more, but otherwise it's not. It just fits into your lifestyle, he will teach you how you won't get sick again by being careful what you eat, what you do. So they are trying to educate you, trying to all these different things. And so, that's what it is, everybody can get. But when the vaiśyas take over, then unless you are rich you can't get anything. It just becomes business-minded.

So that's, these are weaknesses if you don't have a complete system: each one is trying to be in control. The intellectuals want to be in control, the government wants to be in control, the business wants to be in control, the common person wants to be in control. So everybody is just trying to get, be in control for their own benefit and that's it. While the Vedic, no, everyone  cooperates together, so that they, by serving the Lord, that's how they get their benefits. So that is Daivī-varṇāśrama. So you see, is that this strategic planning is just that. Know what each position is, then it becomes very clear. That's why we are saying, the GBC, the strategic level, the GBC level is a brāhminical level, they preach. Prabhupāda said, it is the same as sannyāsīs, that, you know, if there is a new center to be opened, the GBC arrange and open it. Because many times you see, a temple president, as far as he is concerned, in one city there should only be one temple. But like in Delhi, Prabhupāda wanted 20 temples, because otherwise how do you get the whole city to be able to come to the temple on Janmāṣṭamī? So you have to, each area have a temple. So depending upon the city and its structure and volume of people then you can have different varieties of things going on. So that the GBC establishes, but who runs it, now they are doing the operational, they are the ones that then are managing and doing the administration, they have their own, you know, the people, the bureaucracies, their tactical, their technical and all that. So that's what you are talking about there, they are the ones that then are giving the protection, though, of course, overall the brāhminical is giving protection by everybody having proper knowledge and knowing how to properly behave. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Right, right, yes, yes.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Oh, the spiritual, okay. See, the problem comes is because we have our spiritual nature and our spiritual form, but that becomes covered by this material form, right? And so, this material form, then it has material senses, so with these material senses we can't perceive the soul, nor can we perceive the Lord, right? So that means, we don't actually properly perceive His energies either. So, means, we are in ignorance, that is the meaning that everyone is under the avidyā-śakti, even the big, big sages and brāhmanas and all that: if they are not devotees, they are under a avidyā-śakti. They may be in the mode of goodness end of avidyā, but vidyā means to know the Lord. So, therefore, then since that is real protection, because you are doing something for somebody because the soul is benefited, that is the real protection, but if we identify with the body or only see things with the senses then we think, 'Unless someone is taking care of my personal environment  then I am not being protected.' But that is why the whole Varṇāśrama system is there. Because you can... People will say, 'Oh, no, we don't need all this, we are just devotees,' then why are they getting into bureaucracy? Why are they talking about community development? Why is there so much emphasis on the family units and, you know, the equality with the men and the women? All these are social issues, social, economic issues. So how do you take care of those in a balanced way? Only through Varṇāśrama. So, therefore, by getting rid of the idea of Varṇāśrama they have shot themselves in the foot. You have that saying?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. So they have simply shot themselves in the foot, and then because it doesn't work then you have to come up with more and more speculation on how to make it more and how to make it... You know, like that, and because... So it's like, it just keeps on going and going and going. So in the name of equality there is more and more differences and segregation, and in the name of freedom there is less and less that you can say and less and less that you can do. So it is going in the opposite... That is the mode of ignorance. The mode of ignorance means, religion becomes irreligion and irreligion becomes religion. So what you are not supposed to do - that's what you have to do, and what you are supposed to do, 'Oh, that is nonsense.' Like it was mentioned yesterday, 'Oh, these...' I think you mentioned that these religious groups, that they are dangerous. Why? Because then they give an authority that is above the government, like that.

Even if you just want to look scientifically, the modes of nature are above everybody. You can say whatever you like and then comes along a storm or an earthquake, and then, you know, so they are sitting there in parliament and then the chair there says, 'So, raise your hands, how many say that we can't be affected by earthquakes? So this earthquake, this is happening now, it can't have any effect on our people,' and everything like that. 'Raise the hands! Aye, okay it's passed, the earthquake can't have any effect,' right, as the building falls down around them?

So that's the thing, is that this is the mode of ignorance. And so then that's why the prayer, oṁ ajñāna timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalākayā, means it is the knowledge. So, therefore, the brāhmanas by the teaching, of course, you hear, but by them doing their austerities and their sādhana, that creates a pure environment in which others may become inspired. Means, if you have someone who is... In other words, if you have someone who is very saintly... It's like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, and then there is that prostitute, she became elevated to the point where she went from being a prostitute to being a paramahaṁsa in three days. While on the other end of the scale you have someone like Rasputin, you don't hear of anybody becoming purified by his association, right? He is definitely not famous for that.

So that's the whole thing, is when that is there, it works. So that's why that austerity, those things, that is what is then appreciated. And when that is done then it works, and since we are doing it for Kṛṣṇa, it is not about the austerity, it is about that things are being done for Kṛṣṇa, so one is living a simple lifestyle for Kṛṣṇa. And so, then that's why then that works very nicely. So that's why then Prabhupāda said, just by them being there, because the person themselves was a very strong leader and sādhaka and that, and so just by being there everyone would tend to be more serious about their sādhana and more disciplined, just by sitting there. And especially at that time you had the two of them sitting there, so one was in the Gurukula and the other was sitting there that they would have the influence over the administration because they were the GBC. And so, between the two of them the place was running super smooth and very nice program and everything like that. But because of the subtlety then there is always that doubt, 'Well, how much effect... I don't see things happening.' So for people who can only function on seeing things happen, then you push them that they are getting a result that can be seen. But as they do that in Kṛṣṇa's service, they start to become purified, so that besides just seeing that result they also see the devotional benefit.

So that's then the whole point of the... Between the strategic and the operational, that cooperation is that they can see what will work best to engage individuals according to their nature in Kṛṣṇa's service, so that you are getting the maximum benefit for the individual and the maximum benefit for the society, so that that benefits others. So when you benefit the society you benefit others. So the individual should get benefit and they should be adding benefit for others. And if not, if they are just sitting in their home, at least they are getting benefit, if they are just a friend of Kṛṣṇa or something like that, just considering themselves part of the movement, but not taking so much seriousness of the society. Like that. So they are getting benefit. But then as they come in more and they take the association more seriously and the practice, then they become part of the society. And then there will be the individuals who are running the projects and all that, then they will be directly part of the institution, means, the legal entity. Because ISKCON means the whole thing, but at the same time there is the legal entity that just means the temple and those officers and those devotees, it doesn't mean the community, unless the community is involved. Like what we said, in Chowpatty, then the community runs the temple. So those ones who are doing that then they are also officers of ISKCON, right?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So one is a member of ISKCON meaning that they are part of the society, but it doesn't mean that they are a legal member. Just like the church, you have the church and the people involved there, then if there is something wrong with the church, legal things only happen to them, they don't happen... It's not that a case comes up with that local church and then therefore everybody in the country can be put in jail. No, you can only go after those persons that are legally there. So this balance has to be understood, this is also not a clear point.

So these social things aren't understood, Varṇāśrama is not understood, and so then you have that problem, that you don't know how it all fits together. And if you don't know how it fits together, then it is a problem. So that's why then it starts out... Means, let's say, if you want to do a jigsaw puzzle, one of the first things that they tell you is, find the four corners. And then get the corners in place, then you start around the edges to connect those corners and that, then you fill in the middle. So that's the thing, you get the brāhmanas, you get this knowledge, then who is doing administration, who is doing this and that, then you can fill it in. Means, if you don't have the GBC, you don't have the temple president, you don't have his officers and you don't have the temple devotees down there, then how do you figure out now how to develop? Right? This guy knows how to cook, this guy is  good at the book distribution, this guy knows how to do this and that. And so, then you put it together and now you have your temple and you expand. You can't expand, let's say, doing a cultural program, if you don't have anybody who can sing and dance and do dramas and those, right? Right. But you can have a nice little, just a kīrtana and worship the Deities and just a simple thing. That's the point, is that it is so... Because the principle is the main, it is so easy and simple that anybody anywhere can run a bona fide full program. And then if you have others that you can expand from that and you have a dance, you have a drama, you have some other things, great! It just gets more. But that depends on what you have, then you fill it in. And then you have that person, then you do that. When you don't have that person, either you find another one if you can or you focus on something else. So that's the meaning of the time, place and circumstance. Circumstance means, who do you have? What can you do, what can the others do? And then, of course, time and place, in that field what is available, then you can do something. So it works.

It all, that is the beauty of the Vedic system - it is all perfectly integrated. So like that we can be talking, we are talking strategic planning, we are taking that as a focus, but actually to make it work we have to discuss Varṇāśrama, the philosophy, pure devotional service, relationship, proper qualities of devotees, all that to make it work. Does that make sense? But if we are just having a class on the philosophy, you have to discuss all these same things anyway. So that's why you see, Prabhupāda in his purports, everything that we are going to talk about here is all in his books. So, if he is talking about Pṛthu Mahāraja and that, then you are going to hear a lot about administration. You are hearing about Kardama Muni, then you are hearing about the āśrama aspect and and how he is developing, how he is going from a brahmacārī through gṛhasta and then to renunciation. Does that make sense? So you are always going to hear about that. Vidura and Maitreya, they are talking about the creation, how it all works, how it is all connected to Kṛṣṇa.

So that's the whole thing, is it is a perfect system because Kṛṣṇa is perfect and complete and everything that comes from Him is perfect and complete. You just have to accept Kṛṣṇa and how it is all coming from Him, then it becomes perfect and complete. But if we try to avoid that, leave something out, saying, 'Oh, Varṇāśrama is mundane,' and bureaucracy is spiritual? You know, when did that happen? Daivī- varṇāśrama lead by the brāhmanas and kṣatriyas, and we are going to add bureaucracy, which basically means śūdras controlled by vaiśyas, and somehow or another that can be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service? You know, it is just like when the Ācāryas talk about yukta-vairāgya, that means engaging your body, mind and words in the Lord's service. So whatever your nature is, that's what you engage. In other words, according to your position in Varṇāśrama you engage in Kṛṣṇa's service. Yes, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo... [ŚB 1.2.6]. But it is taken, 'Oh, no, this all, this Vedic - this is all mundane.' So what is yukta-vairāgya? Using anything that is not Vedic in Kṛṣṇa's service. Means, we have our phone, you see, 'I have this phone, that's yukta-vairāgya.' You know as soon as you say, 'Oh why aren't you doing that stuff?' 'So, yukta-vairāgya, you are not using planes? You are not using phones? You don't use the internet?' Do you ever hear any other point made? No, I haven't heard any other point in the last 40 years, but that is the only thing that they ever say. But it is about your body, it starts there. Means, how do you use the phone if you don't use your hand and your eyes and your brain?

So, therefore, the whole thing is that, it means engaging yourself, whatever is that conditioning, in Kṛṣṇa's service - that is yukta-vairāgya. So that's the whole thing is that, you know... And if they do use the Vedic, then they take all these aparā-vidyās, or these mundane Vedic knowledge, and because it is Vedic it is automatically spiritual - like astronomy, or Āyurveda, these things - no it's not. Bhāgavatam - that is spiritual, everything else is in support of that. All the other branches of Vedic knowledge, if they are in line with Bhāgavatam then it is useful in Daivī-varṇāśrama. If they are not, we don't care. That's how we can go on and preach, even though no cultural aspects are necessarily applied, but people say, 'Oh, we are uncultured' and that. That's because... The more you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you can properly use the culture. But if you think you are going to be cultured without Kṛṣṇa, I don't think so, you are not going to be any more cultured than you were before you joined, that seed, it is not going to be anymore. Means, were you going to operas and listening to Beethoven and all that before you joined? If not, you are not going to get more cultural now. Did you appreciate going out and from whatever it is you ate, but going to a restaurant that served Polish food or Mexican food, or German food or this or that? If you did then you can appreciate across, if you didn't you are not going to like Indian food now.

And so, you see that, they are talking culture and refinement, but they are only talking the same thing that they talked 50 years ago: be nice, be good. We have to remember, communes, you know commune, where everyone lives? How did that work out in Israel? They set it up with communes, they are not running now, they all have to... They can't make money, so they are all doing business and that. Otherwise they can't function, so they have to make it more... They have another name for it when everyone kind-of does their own thing, but there is a tight community, so it's more of a co-op, like that, they've gone into that. But everybody does their own thing. So these more kind-of socialistic tendencies, they are there in the Vedic system, but if you think that... Means, you don't manage the place by socialism, socialism is the benefiting the common person, but you make your money through business  and you manage through administration, not through socialism. And the philosophy and all that, the intellectual has to be applied. And without administration how do you apply it? If there is not a safe environment, how do you apply it? So you have to combine all these together, and that is the Vedic system. So if one has been focusing on it, not focusing, but appreciative of this over the last 40 years, that people would know how to use it. But if you have been opposing it for 40 years because 'We are not this body, Prabhu, we are the soul,' then, then what? You can't teach, you know, how you say? You can't teach old swans new tricks. Is that okay?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So that means that... Just directly on the thing, just one point, is that... In other words, you are always thinking about it, that will prosper the thing. Because you are thinking about it, therefore then those environments you are going to see. It is just like, you have done cooking? Much? Okay, so now if someone is actually good at cooking, why they are consistently good at cooking? Why? Because they are always meditating on what they are cooking. Let's say, they are doing something, they put something in the pot, they walk away from the pot to get something, get something out of the fridge or cut something, they are meditating on the cooking, they can tell when it needs to be stirred. They are in the other room, they can tell: time to go back and stir. And so, they never burn anything. The guy that burns stuff is the guy that walks off and doesn't come back, right? And then when they come back, they are so surprised. There is no meditation, right?

And then by touch... By sight, you are always seeing, like the kids are playing and that, you are always seeing what they are doing. You are seeing, are they getting too near the stairs or [indistinct]? And if they go toward that they can fall over. So by seeing you are seeing what is going on. And then by touch, you are there, so you are reassuring and all those kind-of things like that. Like I think there was something done, some study done on monkeys, I am not sure which monkey, but I think it was chimpanzees, if you don't touch the babies, they don't actually grow, they don't physically grow unless they are being touched, they just stay small because, you know... But because someone is touching it, like that. So the whole point is is, through these three things, you are meditating on, let's say, your preaching, how preaching will go on, and then you are seeing where are the opportunities, how it's going like that, and you are actually involved with those things that are there, who is preaching and that - that's how everything goes. So being a temple president, being a GBC, being that, you have to use all these three. And the better you can use... So the higher up you go, the more then the meditation and the touch works, I mean, the meditation and the sight works, because just by seeing they can see. On the bottom then they physically have to take their skill and use it, and only when they use it then you get something. But you see, as you go up then more sight than that, but then the meditation is the top. So then you... Like that. Like the turtle sits in the ocean meditating on the eggs, they hatch, and what happens when they hatch? Those little baby turtles run to the sea. You know they go and find, they find where their parents are because of the meditation. So that's why then all this has to be there.

So this whole thing of, like what you said in the beginning, that the guru is going to protect us, or the temple is, by touch, then it is part, but it has its limitation. And so that's the thing, they expect you to do everything for them and all that, but no. That's why in Varṇāśrama you have all these things, that's why there is marriage, there is community, the family takes care, then the group of families, they take care. Someone has a problem, someone gets sick, they can't take care of the family, the other families step in and help and all that, until the person has got their health back - that's what it is all for. So all these social things are there for the purpose of just things run smoothly, so you can be Kṛṣṇa conscious. So one has to understand the whole thing and how it has to go back to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all these things...

Like this thing: is it community or temple? Community or temple? You know, we can't have both. What do you mean? What are they talking about? The temple is the center of the community. It is like in India you have Udupi and it is the center of the town. I don't know if they still do it, but they used to do it when we used to go there, the Deity eats at noon, and when He has finished eating or a little bit before that, they they light a cannon, it makes a big boom, then everybody knows, okay, then Udupi Kṛṣṇa has eaten, now they will eat their lunch. Otherwise then in that area no one eats lunch before the Deity has eaten. So I mean, the temple... Just like I remember sitting in, I was in a shop in Jaipur, I am not sure when, 1990s or 1980s or something, sitting in a shop, looking at some stuff, like that. And  suddenly the guy said, 'You have to excuse us, we are going for darśana, it is seven o'clock.' And they got up and left the shop, we are there right there, they could... You stay - nice, if you don't... Some, because they have a smaller shop, they go out, lock the door, go for darśana, go for the āratika, āratika is over, they come back, open the shop and stay there until 10 o'clock. But Maṅgala-āratika and evening āratika, that everybody goes. So that's the whole thing, is the community thing, it is around the Deity. So how can you not have both? So this idea is 'one or the other,' you might start with one and then... Just like Chowpatty started with community, it actually started with three people, you know, Mahārāja and one couple, and then from there is more, and then you had community, and then they made the temple and now they have one of the best temples as far as made in the movement. But at the same time is, there is only like 120 people living in the temple and the other... How you say? What you call it? Fifteen thousand people, they live in their homes and stuff like that. So, one has to see is, it all goes together, but it's such a perfect system, it can have any blend and balance in that, depending on what's there, it's so perfectly individual. But as soon as it is said, 'Oh, no, but if you had this, it wouldn't work,' because you would adjust it for that. But then as soon as, 'Oh, we can adjust, we'll adjust everything! You know, why God... Why Kṛṣṇa has to be God, why not my baby?' Ever seen Hindus? 'Oh, baby is God,' you know, it's like, hey, come on. We've had enough Hindus around here. Is that okay?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, yes, thank you. Time is on.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Right. That's what... I mean, basically you are going to have, these are problems always there in the material world. Means, these are eternal problems. Then at any one particular time and place a particular problem will become more obvious. So you could say, is the present culture is based more around, centered around the economic community, the bourgeois is the main thing. So if you go back in time, Suhotra Mahārāja used to talk about this, that you go back in time, it was the priests that were the main. And then at some point the kings became the main, and then when you had all these revolutions against the kings, then the bourgeois becomes the main. And then you had communism, which is about the common person becoming the main. So you are always going to have these, depending on what it is. So you are going to see, is that it is an economic problem, that in one sense it is lower than the standard because it is below the proper strategy and operational, it is just a tactical thing. But in one sense, when it is economic, at least it is a slight step better than it is just about political correctness and this and that, and all this, and, 'Oh, no, you have to see this.' So, therefore, you will see that they are willing to lose tons of money for the idea that, 'No, it is all equal,' or it is this or that and some philosophy. So that is your lowest because it is working on the śūdra platform and it is not even efficient. So that is the problem, when brāhmanas are only supposedly worrying about the common person, but they are only worried about a particular group of common persons and they are willing to sacrifice everything else for that and it is not efficient, so no one gets any benefit, except, of course, we mentioned that lady who was able to buy four properties for 15 million bucks, she did all right. But other than that one person then not a whole lot get benefit.

So it is because of this push of the bourgeois, even the dress, right, the suit, coat, tie - that is the business dress. Like you see, previously, before is that the nobility and that, they had their own dress. So when heads of state would meet, they would wear that dress, but then it came to be a point kind-of after... You kind-of dissolve so many of the nobilities and all these things, then when they would meet, sometimes they would wear that, but they got the tendency where they would wear the business outfit. So there would be a discussion, 'Are we wearing our royal outfit or we are wearing the...' For them the business suit and tie, that was more casual. And so, you know, because people would appreciate that better, wouldn't criticize so much, so you see. So we see, is the business community has become in one sense a more... In your formal, more traditional things it becomes more prominent. But then you have nowadays where even that, they go to work, no one properly wears any proper clothes, they go in their T-shirts, they don't shave, they don't this and that, and all that trying to be more liberal and all that. But whether they make money, whether they can maintain, whether they get any loyalties? Like I was told, is that before is people would work at a company and be loyal to a company, and so the company could grow. But nowadays with the millennials is the millennial only looks where he can make the most money. So he will work for your company, if he finds another company that is willing to give [more], he will be gone - no loyalties at all. So it is really hard to keep these business... They come up quick and then they go down, they don't maintain. And so, the ones that do maintain, you generally see they are wearing suits. So that, this economic means, it is one of the considerations, when you are considering these things you are going to see is, okay, what is it? You know, about the physical health and all these different things like that, you are going to see the economics, you are going to see what is the religious duties, and you are going to see what is the philosophy and what is the spiritual position. But the thing is is, you can't lose the higher for the lower, you can lose the lower for the higher. Like you were saying there, you have a community, so you might lose some money for bringing in a guy to move your stuff. But at the same time is, you will see in the community, with time, if it is something regular they do, one member of the community, he will make moving stuff his job, and then the money stays in the community. But here is, you can't have that, okay, if he guy moves it in three weeks and then after that he can't do anything else for some time, then if you say is, okay, he couldn't do a service for... That means he is not doing for three weeks of moving and then he can't do for another three weeks, so that is six weeks. So then the point is is, he didn't do his service for six weeks. So he did a service, he is going to get devotional benefit, but then the question comes is, is that worth it, or would it have been more worthwhile to bring in a guy? Or would have been, okay, instead of moving it in three weeks, could he have moved it in six weeks and still done his service? Or why have one guy do it, why not have everybody get involved? Or everybody gets involved and move it in three days, and then everybody gets back to their service? So you have to always see is that overall principle. So money must be considered, but it can't be the only thing you consider, because otherwise sometimes you... How you say? As we mentioned before that, what was his name? Bata, I think, he was from Czech, that area, the shoe guy, the big shoe company? No? No one knows? You have in India, Bata shoes.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, so he was big, but interesting thing, he was a bit more like a kṣatriya because... He was a bit like Hershey's in America, is that they  created a whole community and everything for their workers: schools and hospitals and everything, so that their workers could be completely taken care of.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, he built houses, he would have whole communities, schools, everything for them, so that they didn't have to worry. And they were good, it wasn't that he was trying to cheat. People liked to work there, so they committed lifelong there, and so he made a statement, 'I am too poor to buy cheap things. I don't have enough money to buy cheap things,' right? Because if I buy a cheap thing, it breaks, and then I have to buy another cheap thing and it breaks, and another cheap thing and it breaks, while if I buy something better it will last longer. Like I remember, I used to get this one watch, it was a cheap watch, every six months I had to change it. Every six months, and you have to go out of your way, find a thing, all this and that, get there, spend the money. So over that time I could have bought a little bit better watch and not worried about it for the next 10-20 years. So that's the thing, is that there's the thing is, you have... There is a point where the balance between what money you put in and your return, you know, value for money. So you have to see that, you are not looking at the prestige of it, you are not looking at that kind of thing, you are looking at where is the value for money. And then that balance, then you should be able to see.

So economics is important because Prabhupāda used to stress that here in Māyāpura with the managers, he says, 'One cent today, tomorrow one cent, the next day one cent, and you just add that up, and pretty soon - one million dollars lost.' Because every day you are losing something like that because you are not managing it properly. So Prabhupāda expected that the managers would be very careful about money, but at the same time is, if you lose your saṅkīrtana guy who is making the money, what was the benefit? You know, if you are simply looking economics, saṅkīrtana makes the money, so if you lose your saṅkīrtana, how do you make money? So, therefore, is it worth it? So like that, you have to balance. And if it is so important, then get everybody moving it if it has to be moved now. If not, move it over three months, you know, do some yourself on the weekends. Like that, little by little if it is no big deal. So you just have to balance it, you just have to see what works. Is that okay?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. Jaya ho!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Hare Kṛṣṇa!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Jaya Nitāi!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, thank you!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means that people should know how what they are doing is connected to Kṛṣṇa and what is the spiritual benefit they are getting from doing this by serving Kṛṣṇa. Because otherwise, like you said, if you just use the corporate model, they only get into the knowledge and skills, right? And this is the funny thing: here is... This is a really funny point: we are using the corporate model for education, but what does the corporate model teach? Does it teach you how to make money? No, because the guys running the corporations are making the money. They are trying to teach people that they can engage to make them money. So, therefore, the corporate model for education means only training śūdras. And you should say, 'No, no, but they have all these business models and all the middle management...' The middle management is all śūdras. Their background, they might be from a brāhmana background or business background, but their service that they are doing is śūdras. So, corporate model only knows how to train śūdras. So you don't even know what is your dharma, what is your nature, what you should be doing, whether it is right or wrong, what is a good thing to do and not a good thing to do, what is the social position and all that, you know, stuff like this. Because it's just like this: okay, does corporate have a problem with you working on Christmas or New Year's or during your child's birthday party, or when they are doing their recital at school or they are playing their final match in their baseball game? Does corporate have a problem with you missing that? Not at all. And they will say, 'Oh, you want to be for that? I thought you were more professional. Oh, maybe we should have gotten someone else for the job. We thought you were a professional guy. Now we find out, you know, you're just one of these sentimental guys who is attached to the family, not really willing to commit to his...' What do you call it? His... What do you call that? You know, when you have an occupation?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Career, yeah, 'We thought you were more of a...' And so, all they are saying is that, 'Oh we were thought, you were more committed to making us money, we didn't realize you were, you know, had these archaic sentiments of being a human being that, you know, it is a social animal and it has to be like that.' And then they use that all the time, like that. But where is that businessman during Christmas? He is at home. He is not going to be... He is not an idiot, he has hired you to be the idiot.

So, therefore, that's your first problem, is taking the lead from corporate education means training śūdras that have no moral standards, no religious standards and no understanding of the philosophy. So where in their model do these fit? And you can say, 'Oh, but they don't fit in so nicely, so we are just being practical, we are leaving them out.' Because it is not meant to have them in it, while the educational model has it all. Prabhupāda doesn't talk about family? Prabhupāda doesn't talk about economics? He doesn't talk about administration or training, or preaching? It is all there in the books because that is the brāhminical standard, so it teaches everything. It may not... 'Oh, but it's not as efficient...' How efficient... Means, where in the world do you teach a guy that knows nothing a course over a five day or ten day seminar, and then you say, 'Okay, now he can do it'? We have a 10-day seminar to become a teacher, you know, or a 10-day seminar or five-day seminar how to become a disciple. And now you can do it? You know what I am saying? And they are using the corporate model? The corporate model is like this? Yes, they do have 10-day, 5-day seminars, but based on what? The guy has already done an MBA, which is a Master's of 18 months, and he has already done, you know, a three or four year course in economics. So he already has four and a half years of training under his belt before going to that five day seminar. So that's the whole thing, is you are supposed to train in all these things and you are supposed to show the connection. If you can't show the connection, why are you teaching? You say, 'Oh no, but we are being practical,' no, you are not because you are neither getting profit, nor is anybody going back to Godhead, and it is not even being run nicely. So where is the profit you are talking about? Profit you should see, that is the thing about profit, it is right there, you see the benefit. So that's real, that's practical: when people are more Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's more practical.

And as far as a personal experience on what you can do there... It is a small building. Don't keep anything more there than you need. Keep it clean. It's too small to let any extra... You know, all that stuff on the stairs and there, when you come in, the shoes, there is extra junk, are all those... So many shoes are there. Anybody is using them? If not, get rid of them! You know, I mean, give them to whatever it is, you have the Salvation Army, whoever it is that you give clothes to. Go into all those rooms, like that one special place you go up the stairs from next to the Deities, and then there is that little room where you are going to meet people - it's got so much junk in it! Like that. You go next door to that, to that, you know, our fancy... What you call it? When you have a whole bunch of people having a meeting? A conference. Like that - junk! Even next to Prabhupāda there is that little closet, open the door - junk! So that's my only advice. I mean, I'd give that advice to any temple, especially Soho because, you know, if you move your elbows a little this way, you are going to bump into something. Just get rid of the junk - you don't need it. And then you'll find it is clean, and then the atmosphere... That was the point before, Narakṛti made about austerities, that brāhmanas, it is austerities. Means, how much is actually required, you keep it. Don't think, 'Oh, maybe we could keep it, maybe it will be useful...' But if it's not, get rid of it! And so, then a clean temple, that is nice, people, their brains will work better, like that, and everything will go. The brahmacārī āśrama, the bathroom, make sure the bathroom still works, I mean, those things were put in there, you know, 20 years ago, the taps still work, do they still? This and that. If they do, great, then that just shows the perfection of buying that kind of solid stainless steel stuff. And we know where that's from, where it is used by the government. But that's why they use it - it can't be broken. So, but if it is not - great, but if it is, fix it! Make everything work! It all works nice, it's simple, you have no extra stuff there, it's good. You know, no mess. No muss, no fuss, you know. It's just like behind you, on the very top of that cabinet, there's this red... red, looks like some file. Do you ever use that? Otherwise, why is it there? Why can't the files, the other files be standing up? It means...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: You know what I am saying? That's the thing. And make sure your plant gets enough water, right? And the white behind you is nice, it looks good, looks clean. So it should be, people walk into the place, it's simple, but it's clean and they like it. Our temple in... When we... Where was that? Ended up in St. Louis. Furniture - you walked in, there was a cabinet there, one of those glass cabinets that had, you know, books and beads and stuff like that in it, nothing else, the whole hallway or nothing. Go into the temple room, then there was a Vyāsāsana for Prabhupāda, there was a little  cabinet that the books and all the other things were in, and that was it. Then you had the Deity room that had an altar; the temple president's office had a desk and a filing cabinet; brahmacārī āśrama had nothing; in the closet you kept, everyone kept their... There was  some order how everybody had, and that was it. And when people came into the... And the funny thing about it is, when you keep it that clean, if you burn incense, you actually smell the incense. Otherwise it just goes in and disappears into everything else and that. So people would come to the temple and remark how clean the place was. They didn't go,'Well, there is nothing here, this is weird,' they'd just go, 'Wow, so clean!' Because if you look at really high class places, they are clean, very minimal stuff, only what's necessary. And so, because the place is so small you want to consider that. The Manor has a little bit more space, they can stuff things under the stairs there, you know, I mean, under the stairs is like as big as half of your temple room, so...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: But yeah, training means training people about everything. It starts with Kṛṣṇa, how it pleases Kṛṣṇa, how it pleases Guru, how all this thing is all connected together? Who are you, how you are relating, how you are involved, why you are doing what you are doing? Means, we study all these things because then it develops faith. Right? In other words, if somebody like Prahlāda Mahārāja, he didn't have to go to formal study to know what he knows. He spontaneously had love for Kṛṣṇa, right? He comes in contact with the spiritual master and he has that natural love. But Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura points out, if you don't have that automatically, that position of faith, you only have that soft faith... Means, it is real faith, but it is soft, it is pliable, then you have to, from the spiritual master, hear and study the scriptures, and you have to see scripture as the only authority, and you have to see that everything that you are doing, its only value is how much it is useful in Kṛṣṇa's service, otherwise it doesn't have a value, right? It is Kṛṣṇa's world, its value is because it's Kṛṣṇa's world, not that it has a value outside of Kṛṣṇa. That's why we study, that's why we have classes. You see Prabhupāda didn't have formal classes until 1970. Before that then he just... The books were there, devotees would read, they would go out on Harināma all day, they'd get up in the morning they'd chant, they'd read, they'd have breakfast, go out all day, come back in the evening, have some milk and that, do some reading, go to bed. But when he saw that no one was advancing nicely, they weren't understanding the philosophy... Maybe individuals, but in the group they weren't, then he introduced the formal morning program, evening program, two classes a day, everything like that, just to make sure it all happened. So that's what it is for. That's why we do it.

So this whole thing we don't put no emphasis on this, and then what is the position? Okay, if you are supposed to be second initiated, what are you supposed to know? You are supposed to have a Bhakti-śāstri level of understanding, right? And then to be a sanyāsī and all that, then you have to be a Bhaktivaibhava. Then if you want to be a Guru or GBC, you have to be Bhaktivedānta level. Is there much push on that? Have you ever seen? Anybody has got those degrees? You know, one or two places they put a little emphasis on it just to make it easy for them. The guy comes, says, 'Can I get initiated,' and they go, 'Well, then you have to do the course,' you know. So if he did the course, then you say, 'Okay, well, that fits the criteria, they can get.' While before you just knew the person and just knew he is qualified or they are not. So the point is is, the emphasis, the education has to be used not like a corporate model, but as an educational model to bring people up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Does that make sense? And so, if people are becoming more Kṛṣṇa conscious, understanding how... Like here, we were discussing about how the strategy applies in how the Varṇāśrama works. So one, you understand where you fit, how you fit, and at the same time you see how that fits up to Kṛṣṇa. Because as we said, performance of your duties if you are not doing it to please the Lord, what is the point? If you are doing it with attachment, it is going to give you problem. But if you are doing it to please the Lord, that's going to make it work nicely. Does that make sense?

So you always have to see. And you have formal classes, but previously every moment was educational. You are there, you are watching something, you are walking behind someone, how they are walking up the stairs? You know, they are clumping, or they are doing things, or they are dragging their feet and you can mention, 'No, walk like this.' Or how are people keeping their shoes? Just by going out of the door watching how people keep their shoes - right there, that is a class. Does that make sense? How they, how the brahmacārīs keep their stuff? What does the bathroom look like? What is the quality of serving prasāda? How do they take care of guests? How do they take care of visiting devotees? What is the respect amongst themselves? I mean, we used to... Someone with second initiation was probably given as much respect as a general sanyāsī today. Previously I would have said the temple president, but even that not. And not... Some sanyāsī more, but like that. What respect was given to the president, that would have been given to your more senior sanyāsīs and even some of your more general gurus. And what was the respect was given to the sanyāsīs easily was given to the gurus who were like back in the 1980s, during the 'Rāj', you know, like that. So the respect has just dropped so much that there is no respect. And neither does anybody work to command that respect  because as the point before, it is the austerity that makes that that go up. Austerity, that is the wealth of the brāhmanas. So that knowledge that is that, all these things, that's there, that culture. So you can see that the devotees are respectful  because that is the thing. Means, our etiquette is the third verse of Śikśāṣṭakam. All that people talk about this, that... No, if you don't have that, you don't have the other things. You can't be equal if you don't respect people, you can't be equal if you are looking for respect for yourself, you can't be equal if you are not humble, if you are not tolerant. So if you... If those four are there and that is coming because you are always trying to be absorbed in chanting and value chanting, that itself will create, all the other qualities will come from there. The 26 qualities, the fifty qualities that are there in the soul, you will see them all if those four are there, and the key of that is the chanting. So Prabhupāda mentions humility, how do you gain humility? You gain it by having faith that nothing else in this material world other than the Holy Name and the association of vaiṣṇavas will give you any benefit. And if you think something else is giving you benefit, to that degree you will see their humility is not there. Does that make sense? Yeah.

So it is that simple. You can say, 'Oh, no, but it is complicated,' no, it is not, it is really simple. It is a matter of faith, you are humble because of faith. And because of that therefore you can be tolerant. When you can be tolerant, therefore you can respect everyone else and not look for that respect for yourself, then you can always be chanting because you see that's the most valuable. So that is education. That's what it mentions, in the... What is it? I think it is, maybe it is the eighth chapter of the Gītā, then it gives that whole list of 20 items of knowledge, right? And it says, of all those humility is the main one. So how do you tell someone has knowledge? Humility. If they are not humble, they don't really have knowledge. They may be a scholar, they may be very scholastic, but they are not, they don't actually have real knowledge, because when push comes to shove they can't use that knowledge, they just become angry, it's about their position and all these different things. So... Yes? Good? Good luck!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, yes, definitely. Like you see was, Prabhupāda in the Kṛṣṇa Book, he is talking about the.... Let's see where is it... I think it is Devakī, there is some exchange with Kaṁsa and her husband, and she gives this whole explanation, and Prabhupāda in the purport mentions that she is a kṣatriya, so she is trained, she knows all the stuff that the kṣatriya all does, but as a woman she does her part of it and her husband does another part. Because if everybody does the same thing, how does it work, right? If two people are trying to stir the pot at once, it is not going to work very nicely. So they would know, but they would use that in the context of their position. So that would be the thing, is everybody would know who they are, what is the position, what is all these things, but it is not restrictive because then you can move whichever you want. But the same time is, you do have to know that there is inherent nature. You can't use a rock to... How you say? I don't know...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, good one, like that. It just has a nature. Because everything I was thinking, you can't use it for music, and someone will say, 'No, no, but we play on it and it's a...' If you say, you can't use it for art, 'No, no we use it and draw on the wall with it..' Yeah. So I was, you know... I wasn't... But the potato, that's the perfect one, always the potato is the perfect example, right? Works for everybody, everywhere in all times, places and circumstances. And even works on Ekādaśī, right? So, you know, hey, perfect. So, yes. So that's the thing, is the Vedic system is actually allowing someone to act, because you can say whatever you like, but then the problem comes is, with time then you start to see what works is what the Vedas are recommending. It is just sad when you only figure that out when you are 50, 60, 80 years old, like that. Like I remember, I think it was... Yeah, one lady doing this and that, so many different things, and then she just figured out, it is much easier to be married and just perform those duties of that, and they were more of the vānaprasthas, so then they could just focus on their sādhana and on their preaching and stuff like that. But she would do the lady stuff, he would do the men's stuff and like that it worked very nicely. She had been through, that was her third marriage, and he works it out, and the guy also, right, two marriages bombed, and by the third one he figures that, you know, maybe he is a little nice to his wife, he talks nicely, and she is happy. And she has also figured out as well, she should be the same, and it works. So if this stuff is being trained, they could have done that from teenagers, and then already had a marriage that was lasting for all that time. Because they are both devotees, they have common values, so it could work. But that is the thing, is that you try to do all these things or...

I remember, one devotee, somehow or another he had studied under a guide, practically, like internship, who was considered the best in the country with dairy farming, and he knew dairy farming like anything, and then also along with that farming the guy was so good at it. But then he figured with time, nobody cared about farming and cows, really. You know, presidents, and it was all about who is controlling this, that. So then he decided he will get into management. So it is a bit like the Viśvāmitra kind-of thing, you know, he is doing this and then he gets the feed (?) and says that's better and keeps going. And then that bombed on him really bad, and then I met him, maybe it was like, I don't know, maybe 20 years after I had last seen him when he bombed as a manager, like a temple kind-of thing, and then he was teaching in the school. So all along his nature was just a simple brāhminical, he was a teacher and he was a good teacher, had been doing it for 20 years, so it wasn't like all the other things that bombed out on him. So it was, he was able to intellectually understand how it worked so nicely because of that intelllectual, that brāhminical brain. But he didn't have the managerial ability to make it work, so he couldn't get farming to work and cow, he couldn't get the management to work. But as soon as he just accepted and did his brāhminical thing, it was nice. The students liked him, he was a good teacher, he did really well, everything like that. So it's just a matter of, whatever is your nature, do that for Kṛṣṇa and then it works perfectly. Otherwise, yes, you can try to do anything else you want in the name of equal opportunity and equality, and then, you know, after 20, 30, 50 years you'll figure out, well, maybe it is easier to just do what your nature is. And so then it works so nicely, and that's the perfection of the Vedic system, is all of them have their origin in the brāhminical. So that means anybody, whatever their nature, they can be a vaiṣṇava and be absorbed in devotional service and be expert and professional in that, and then accordingly, whatever other natures they have, they use that to get those things done and add in, and that makes the uniqueness to that individual and their particular service and preaching. Then it works perfectly.

So that is the thing, is if that is just accepted that Kṛṣṇa made the nature, not us, then it just makes it so much easier. You figure out what you do, and then you know from that where your strengths are and your weaknesses are, where you can organize, where you can't, where you can do, where you don't. And then others also know because they know is, 'Okay, let's say, this guy knows business. So if we are talking about something to do with money and like that, ask him. Why we will ask that austere brahmacārī over there in the corner? He doesn't know. Like that. I will ask the guy who knows money and he will tell you.' And then so that way then the administrator and the preachers, they get so much done because they engage who can do this stuff. Like, you know, we were discussing, I think, day before yesterday, Rādhānātha Mahārāja, he just knows, like it was said, he knows how to inspire people in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and what will they do? They will do their nature. So if they are managers, they manage, if they know money they will get the money together. He has big projects, he doesn't have to raise any money, he inspires those people that know money, they know how to get it. Like I saw, Ambarīṣa Prabhu, right, he is coming from that background of money. He knows, if you want to raise money, you put in money. Because I remember is, when we, I think one of our managers asked him if he would like to donate for something in the school, you know, we have a project. His first question is, 'Who else has given?' He wanted to know who is giving, what quality of people are giving. So then he can understand... He didn't have to... By doing that he can tell whether the project is good or not. Because he knows nothing about it, he is interested, but if he hears people who are qualified are investing, then he knows it's worth investing, because the guy who knows what he is doing won't invest in something that is bad. And at the same time is, you could say, okay he is asking that, when it came for a collection for the big temple, the first thing he did, he says, 'I am pledging this much money,' right, when he starts to talk he has got everybody there that could either put in money or knew how to influence people to get money, and his first thing is 'I am putting in this much money, you match it, and if you get more I will match that.' He just, that was his first thing. So he knows money, he knows how to make it work. So that's the thing, is you ask those people, they know how to do that. Managers know how to manage, the cook knows how to cook, the treasurer knows how much money you have, so whether you can do any of that or not.

So you have to ask these people, and that makes a good manager. That's why when yesterday the point of micromanagement, it's most useless thing on the planet, because unless you know everything... So the only person that technically could micromanage in this universe is Lord Brahmā, Lord Viṣṇu and Lord Śiva, and, of course, Durgā. But do they? No. But they are the only ones qualified, they know everything, literally, but they don't micromanage. So if the guys that are qualified that they could don't, why would anybody else think it is a value? So that's why the president has his people and he listens to them, and he, that point is, why he is the president? Because he follows up, he goes after, he sees it is happening, he puts it into place, he brings the people, that's what he is doing. He may not have to do anything else, but he does it, and that's the part in that. And then as an individual he is advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is applying himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is chanting, he is doing these things, he is inspiring the others, and so, therefore, then from both from his individual and from his managerial he makes it all happen, and then it is great. And then all these other guys, they feel good because they did something. But as soon as you try to micromanage then he is not doing, and then if he does have the ability, he will step back.

So that's the thing, is you know people's nature, it is nature and ability. So let's say, the guy is business, okay, but how big a business? Okay, he runs a little shop on the corner and he pleases everyone, he sells ice cream, right? So he will know principles of business that you could learn from him, but on doing something on something really big he won't know. But he has the nature, if need be then he might be able to find out, he may not be able to do it, as a devotee he could find out because of that brahminical side, he still may not be able to do it, and if he does, that is by Kṛṣṇa's grace. But otherwise you ask somebody who is bigger. It's like Rādhānātha Mahārāja was talking to some of the richest in India and that says something. Someone is, okay, 'We are the richest in Papua New Guinea,' you know, there is only 20 people there that got money. But you are talking about 1.4 billion people, and there is huge business communities. So to be 10th richest in India or to be above that in India, then they are good, they say, you know it works. So he would deal with that. And manager, so it's like Jayapatāka Mahārāja, like we said, he is not a manager, he was inspiring people down in Bangalore where you had 50 guys that knew how to manage, and they built that temple, a big, huge project in record time. They were spending five lakhs a day in that time, that would have been when? Back in the 1980s, I think, so that is a lot of money. Five lakhs a day, they had how many engineers? I think, they had something like 10 or 20 engineers on site and everybody, I mean, it is huge. And he inspired them to do that, he would regularly go there, talk with them and that, but he didn't manage it, they managed it. Same Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, he inspires the other guys to do it, they make the money, they build the buildings, they do the stuff.

So that's the whole thing, is the president, he inspires others to do it. Where they can't, then he tells them what to do and he steps in and does it himself. Like Prabhupāda made that point about the temple president, I think once somebody... Prabhupāda came out, 'Why isn't this done?' He says, 'Oh, that devotee didn't show up today.' Prabhupāda says, 'No it is your service.' In other words, for the president every service in the temple is his service and he is responsible to get it all done. Now, the smart thing to do is, other people who are qualified, they do it because how many of those services can you do? So, therefore, let's say, to do all that takes 20 people, so he has got all 20 people doing all those services, but he is following up that they are doing it because it is his service. He doesn't micromanage it, but he just sees that they are doing it and they are doing it right, and doing... I remember seeing Tamāl Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, when you have a conversation with him, let's say, he is trying to work something out, he will go, 'Okay, um, if this is the scenario, what would you do?' And then you sit there and think, you go, 'I'd do this.' First thing that I caught once, he didn't do it all the time, but one time he went... Because he was so absorbed, he went, 'Oh...' he was thinking, 'Option D, eh, that is interesting.' So, in other words, in his mind he had already worked out about five, ten different ways you could solve this problem, but he was not sure which one to use, so when he asked me and I said this thing, that was D, that was number four. But then he doesn't just at that go, 'No, but what about that?' He would just go, 'Why? Why did you choose that?' And you would explain it, then you would see if there is something of value in it or not. And if there was then he would take it, and if there is not then he would understand, 'Okay, this guy doesn't know, I won't ask him, and I will ask someone else. Or if he is the guy doing it, I will tell him what to do.' And he also had a friend that he was from one of those top, he went to Harrow, you know Harrow? Okay, so friends from there, classmates from there, so he meets him after like 20 years, he is a devotee and they are not but he meets them somewhere. And this guy is working in this top company in the world, I think it was number two in the world or number one in the world for this particular kind of research thing. And he says, they have these meetings, ten minute meetings where the head guy walks in, he has his thing, what are the options, has everyone write it down and that, and then a little bit of the discussion, then he takes about, he looks at the papers, and if any of them make sense, he calls the person and 'Now you explain this,' and he explains it, and if it is good, they get that guy to do it or get it going, and if it's not he goes on to the next one. So the point is is, they are able to listen. Why would you waste your time if someone else can do it? Because then you can do more things, you can expand, there is so many things to be done. But at the same time that doesn't mean just sit in the office and do nothing and just think, 'Why, you know, I have told everybody.' But if you are not following up then that is not there. I have seen that so many times that someone who can't manage, doesn't manage, 'Oh, I delegated it.' 'Yes, but did you follow up?' 'No...' And so, that's why it didn't work. But they will say, 'It is not my fault, I delegated.' No, you are in charge, so, therefore, it is your fault.

So there is always a balance, that's the thing in the Vedic system, you have that balance. It's just like the wife is submissive to the husband, right? So then you think, 'Oh, that's all one-sided,' but what the husband does is all about the wife, the considerations are all about the wife. So you see, they are both the center of attention, they are both in control, but at the same time they are both not, it is a cooperation. So that's the Vedic system, everything is balanced. While the modern, if you take the corporate, it is only balanced and it is only for making money. You take all these other modern, it is only for their that thing.

So the Vedic, the Varṇāśrama, is all, everything together, how all āśramas and all varṇas... In other words, varṇa means gṛhastha, they are technically... A gṛhasta is doing a particular thing, brāhmana, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra, they are doing that service, but brahmacārīs, vānaprasthas, sannyāsīs - that is brāhminical. They may have a nature of brāhmana, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, but the point is is, it is going to be always in the context of the āśrama. So, in other words, the brahmacārī is going to do brahmacārī stuff, though within that he might do education, he might do management, he might do Deity worship, he might do cooking, he might do so many different things. But the point is is, doing that, it is still within the context of the āśrama. So that's the whole thing, is that the āśrama is the central feature. To place someone you have to see what their nature is, so Prabhupāda said, 'Varṇa first,' but the point is is, that 'varṇa first' doesn't mean varṇa is more important than āśrama. People take it that way, but no, it just means that if you want to engage somebody, you need to know what their varṇa is because that flavor will be there whatever ashram they are in. And so, if you are taking these things into consideration, then you can do, it's very... So what is the training? Not some corporate thing, because those are tactical skills or technical skills. Point is is, if you don't know how they are to be used, then it's not... Like since we have introduced all this corporate and that, we don't find that the quality of vaiṣṇava interaction and community is any better. So that means, even though they are in the meeting and trying to be nice and all that, it is still just as political as ever.

So that is the whole thing, it's community means, you are developing the vaiṣṇava qualities, that is by vaiṣṇava association, that is by understanding the philosophy. Of course, like now we are discussing the philosophy, but in the context of administration and structure. So, therefore, then it works. So then one sees how does it go into one's life. Then you start to see is that when you read these purports, that's why it talks about these things. It is talking about the king, but it is talking about certain elements: the protection, this that, you know, he is like a father to the citizens and all these things like that. But father of the citizens doesn't mean by touch. Okay.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Haribol. Jaya Nitāi!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, so if we... So you are saying, if someone is on the strategic or operational position in the structure, but they have by nature a śūdra nature, how... Okay, so what would be... Would they be able to do the service and what would be their strengths and weaknesses? Okay. So since, as we said, we are working in a vaiṣṇava society, and so then, since the spiritual is the main thing in all that, then technically they could if they were very advanced. In other words, if they were a neophyte, they wouldn't be able to do it, they would need to be minimum situated as niṣṭhā. So that's standard, we are not going, we are not expecting, 'Oh, no...' You know, it's like Prabhu was saying before, they have, in the corporate they have all their definitions of who does what, we can't have a 'has to have ruci,' you can't do that. So they would have to be advanced, they would have to have that faith where they are fixed in devotional service and nothing else is important. And based on that they would be able to inspire everybody else who can do all those different things. So in other words, let's say, if they are a GBC, they would then be able to inspire that, for example, the temple presidents in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the importance of seeing Kṛṣṇa consciousness in their environment. They wouldn't be able to answer questions on if the temple president is having a problem with management and stuff like that, or economics, but they could inspire him in the way of being fixed in devotional service themselves and inspire them to inquire from others who are having success in those areas, like talk to another temple president or talk to some other devotees, or if they are the GBC, they should know their zone and what's there and then have someone to talk to. Because you would have to know that these aren't areas that you know, unless you have experience from the śūdra angle on those things and just how people who are assisting in it, how they should behave. You know what I am saying? They might be able to say how the devotees of the temple who are assisting in the economics or in the administration, how they should assist, but he won't be able to say how to run it because he doesn't have that nature. And there is no need for him necessarily to have the nature because the point is of the GBC, they are supposed to be advanced in devotional service. Means, ideally they should be able to relate to and appreciate management, so let's say if they came from a background where you were a middle manager or a supervisor or stuff, they can relate to management, but they know that they are not the ones that actually know how to make it work. So little, little things on your schedule or time saving, or this they might be able to give some advice if they have experience, but otherwise there is no need, if they can inspire you in devotional service, how to see it, how to make sure that the advancement of the devotees in the temple is priority and the advancement of the community and the people that they are preaching to, like that, is a priority, then it will work. In other words, the GBC is to be able to put things in perspective of what it is. Like what we say, you can't see the forest for the trees because we might forget about the trees and just... Means, you are so absorbed in a tree or this tree, you can't see that there is other trees in that, and so sometimes you see that: a festival is coming up and the president is so absorbed in getting money or getting this or that, he forgets about other things, and then it is going on one side and falling apart on the other. It's kind-of like Alexander the Great, he conquers a kingdom and all that, puts his, whoever he wants there, then he moves on to the next place, as soon as he moves on it just goes back to the old management. So you want to see there. So he would know what he is doing and that from the devotional side. So he could do it if he is a temple president, he would have to have very good people who can manage, but because of his devotional stability others are inspired to work and do their stuff. So it could happen like that.

The other side, the weakness of it, you would have to make sure that he has other senior vaiṣṇavas, equals or senior to him that if he has any difficulties in his service because of dealing with these areas that he may or may not have expertise in, but they can keep him inspired. It is the same position like having, as you said before, on having women in these kind-of positions, operational or strategic positions, is not that the knowledge and skills aren't there, like we saw before, Prabhupāda said, Devakī, she knows how to run a kingdom. But the point is is, you do have the inherent nature, the feminine nature, which means they will be more mental position than others. A brāhmana woman may be less mental than a śūdra man, but she will be more mental than a brāhmana man, that's just the way it is, it's how Kṛṣṇa has made it. So, therefore, then she should have strong persons that she can depend upon. That's why the Vedic system, ideally then a strong husband, or this or that, so that when things go weird then the shelter is there, you can work it all out and then, you know, back to work. So that is not considered in these things, 'Okay, oh, no, they can do, they can both do the same skill.' Of course, they can both do the same skill. If you have, you know, a head, two arms, two legs, you have ten fingers and ten toes, then you can do most things. And so that's the whole thing, is that if it is taken only on the tactical, what about the higher levels? What about the technical, what about that? What about the pressures that come from that? That you have to be able to deal with, and so there's different... Men go out and the outside world to them is is kind-of, it's just a, it's like water off a duck's back, nothing bothers them. When they go home, then that's when the emotions and all that... But women, the emotions are at home, but when they go out the emotions are there too. Someone looks at them funny, 'Why are they looking funny?' The guy knows that he always looked funny, that guy always looks like that. Have you ever seen, when you get upset with somebody, somebody said something, and the man says, 'Oh, why do you take them so seriously?' And then the woman is thinking, 'What are you talking about? Are you so insensitive?' Because men, when they are in the outside world, that's the way they are: they are not that sensitive, and that is why they are good at going out and dealing with all this insanity because it doesn't bother them as much. But if there is insanity at home, that bothers them. But insanity at home doesn't bother the woman, but if it is insanity outside, that bothers them. So you have to know that as long as you can see it will work.

Just like I have seen temple presidents have a brāhminical nature, and so by nature they can inspire and everything like that, but many times they don't last... Some years go by, but they don't last because they are not good at economics, and so then the temple gets into a debt because they did all kinds of nice things, there is lots of devotees, all the devotees are inspired, but because he doesn't see necessarily so importance in it, then temple slides into debt, and then when it comes out that it is in debt, then the natural thing of management 'Change the president.' Why don't they just bring in a man who knows how to make money? But it's always, the solution is, 'No, change,' and then the whole mood of the temple changes, all those people who are there vibrant all go back to their homes, they are community people, they don't like this guy because he is just into money and how much money they can give, and they go back to their thing like that. And that devotee, he's there in community still there, he does his sādhana, does a few home programs and stuff like that.

I have seen the ones that are kṣatriyas, then that nature is that they will see that... Means, classes, that go on, but it is formal because it is part of the schedule, they control the money because of that  aspect of management, but it's not necessarily that it flourishes. But if they can't because they can get other people to do it, they can get people who are like ministers to do everything. But you see, it is a very nice temple, it is a very big temple, many things go on, lots of stuff goes on, very complex stuff, but it is very formal, the temple, it doesn't have that same kind-of brightness like when that brāhmana guy run it.

Then you have temples where the vaiśya is running the temple, they have fabulous facilities, you know, whatever is considered the best in ISKCON, they have it. But there is not necessarily a strong program or anything else like that, unless they understand the importance, then they will bring in people. I remember one vaiśya temple president, then he used to, in India, he used to fly Acyutānanda Svāmī in once a month for a program, and all the life members, everything would come, whenever he would come, like that. They knew, he would advertise that Acyutānanda Svāmī is coming in. He was in another temple, he would fly him up, so that would, in those days it wasn't cheap, but he knew his members would be pleased and that. He had prasāda at nine o'clock at night, after the program, after the class, everyone is sitting around, it would be purīs and sabjī, why? Because that's what these life members would eat. Brahmacārīs almost died, but whatever it is, he... Like that, and that temple had the maximum money, maximum members, everybody was involved, it was really happening. But it was all, it was all for... He had the best Deity worship, like that. Like somebody would do something, like he would inspire his life membership makers, and because many of them were also kind-of vaiśya nature, so for them it is profit, so then he had the thing,'You make this many members, you get a car. You drop below that, you lose your car, you take the bus.' So everybody had a car. And then when it comes to things, okay, he has done the best, he has done the best for the marathon and that, made the most members and all that, he wants to, you want to get something for that. So he says, so he was very clever, he says, 'Okay, we can give you a 5,000 rupee watch' because he needs a watch or something, 'Or we can give 10,000 rupees for the Deities.' And so what is the brahmacārī going to do? He is going to choose the Deities, and then he had fabulous Deity worship, the best. All the members come and this and that. Means, you know, all these carved wooden siṁhāsanas in the movement? That president started that, he found some guys, carved this fabulous thing, from there one by one, every time... And they used to send for them, so he had the best. But it's because of from that thing, how business guy has the best, so it had that kind of flavor, but it was all around money. If you weren't a collector, you didn't stay there, unless you were the guy that wiped the floor, and they only needed two guys for that, not a third. So then if you came to his temple, he would spend money to send you to another temple. I remember sitting there once, and this brahmacārī comes in, I think, from Vṛndāvana, he comes to the temple and all that, and he says, 'Oh, it's a small place' because it was kind-of small, and he said, 'Here,' he gave him 10 rupees and says, 'Go to Māyāpura.' You know, took prasāda, left, go to Māyāpura. About a month later the brahmacārī comes back, and then he says, like this and that, 'thinking to stay here.' 'No, it's still this and that,' because he wasn't impressed with the guy. He gave him a hundred rupees to go to Delhi. And I was saying, 'Wow, why would you spend that much for this and that?' He says, 'If this guy stays here, he will cost me more than a hundred rupees, so I am actually saving money by giving him a hundred rupees and sending him off. Because otherwise he will stay for a month, he will make trouble, he will eat so much prasāda, he will disturb everyone else, I am going to lose thousands.' So when it came to that, the life members... Means, yeah, they had a name for him about that he made money, they considered him a Marwari, he was as much if not more of a Marwari than them, and they respected him for that. And it was a nice temple. So the point is is, it was a good temple, but he had that nature.

So I have seen all three, and they are all great temples. So the same way is, if someone is... But you see is there is, whether they are so advanced or not, they are just good at what they are doing and they do it in connection to Kṛṣṇa, it will work, so even if they were a neophyte. But for a śūdra to work on that level they would have to be a madhyama because then it will be the drive of the devotional service, they can make that happen. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, so it can work. But it's just, you have to know how it is working and everybody needs to know what is their strength and weakness. And then in regular times you stick to what you are good at. But if it is emergency, everybody has to do whatever has to be done. But that's important to note, is that I have seen some presidents that, 'Oh, it doesn't matter,' and then they'll get somebody to do something that they are not good at, and they can do it for some days or some weeks, or even some months, but then the president, 'Oh, just surrender, you are not this body,' and all that, and they leave. And the president actually thinks that they are being right and saying, 'Well, the others weren't very sincere.' So president is engaging according to their nature, while the other [indistinct]. You can't do that. You have to know that they have this nature, therefore as a regular service they do this, and as an emergency, yeah, anybody can do anything. Like Prabhupāda says, when there is fire, everybody comes out and puts out the fire, they don't... So one has to balance all these things, so that's why there is... The higher up you go, the greater the responsibility and the broader you have to see. So if you are working in the strategic you have to see the whole thing. If you are working the operational, you have to know the whole thing but your focus is on your part of the whole thing, tactical will be in their... [indistinct] ...operational... and technical is 'This is my service, I do it nicely.' And so, unless you have that inherent nature, you have to have... Does that make sense?

So we get things done, we situate ourselves, we purify our nature, so that it's actually useful by chanting and hearing because otherwise then it won't work. You know what I am saying? Because just because you have the nature doesn't mean you can use it in Kṛṣṇa's service. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, okay, thank you.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Brāhminical and vaiṣṇava do go together because a vaiṣṇava is automatically brāhminical. So, on the āśrama side all devotees are brāhminical. But what I am talking about here, what Prabhu... from what I have been .... It's just like as vaiṣṇavas any devotee, let's say, in the temple could do an āratika or do an offering, especially if it is just like, let's say, for a festival. You are having a big festival and this and that, so, okay this guy will be offering this on the āratika, this guy makes the play, this one will do the kīrtana and all that, and that once a day a year anybody can do, or you know even once a week they can do or that. But would they be able to do six āratikas and offerings a day and wake up and put the Deities to sleep? No. So, one who has a brāhminical nature could. Or if they are very advanced as a devotee then based on that vaiṣṇava, nature then they could do. But then you would see in your business...[break]

Bot: Recording in progress

HH BVPS Mahārāja: ... but you may not be able to run a class where you are trying to go through a certain study material. Does that make sense? So you have to know, is that when it comes to regular service, that you would see by their varṇa, but knowing Kṛṣṇa and being absorbed in Kṛṣṇa and being that kind of thing - that everybody in the movement can do, it just depends on their advancement, that's all.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Is that okay? Yes? Haribol!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Jaya!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Jaya ho! Haribol!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Jaya ho!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Jaya ho! Haribol! Hare Kṛṣṇa!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. Basically you see is that Kṛṣṇa, caring about the living entities, then He comes to the material world to perform His pastimes, and then we see that in Kali-yuga then He comes Himself as Caitanya Mahāprabhu to also attract the living entities. So then He has these three features, where He is, you know, the attraction that is there for Him, the activities that are there, that affection for Him. And so then in His movement that comes out as the jīva doyā, the vaiṣṇava sevā and the nāma ruci. So that jīva doyā, that kindness to the living entities, then that is how to bring them in contact with Kṛṣṇa, how to cultivate them, how to inspire them in that. Then vaiṣṇava sevā, associating with the devotees, taking advantage of that association and in that way becoming more and more inspired in both serving... How you say? Having compassion on the living entities and in developing nāma ruci or taste for the Holy Name. Because in that taste, that is where then Kṛṣṇa then gets His greatest pleasure, is that the living entities interact with Him. Because ultimately that they are coming in contact, they are associating with vaiṣṇavas - all this is very pleasurable to Kṛṣṇa. But when all that comes together then it... Because it's not that it is one or the other, it means, jīva doyā, then there is also going to be the vaiṣṇava sevā, then when you add the nāma ruci, then there is all three. And so, that's then what is trying to be obtained by the whole process.

And so then in that, means, individuals may catch, like you see in other ages, individuals are very qualified and then they catch these things and they practice themselves, and through the performance of their duties the great kings and that will have some influence in that, the brāhmanas and that. But you see in Kali-yuga specifically, then everything is done according to the Founder-Ācārya, in which then a whole structure of a society is put together, so that the maximum number of living entities can be exposed to and practice in the association of vaiṣṇavas that they develop a taste for the Holy Name. And so then that, the whole point is is about pleasing Kṛṣṇa, and then about how you organize things that does those activities that please Kṛṣṇa, and that means then you have to have a background of the knowledge and skills and understanding the relationships and structure, in which that can be done.

So that all naturally all comes together, then we see very nicely for us then as the ISKCON society, given by the Founder-Ācārya. And it is important to understand that Founder-Ācārya, it's not just 'Oh, well, he is our guru, so he is the Founder-Ācārya.' In a sampradāya they have a Founder-Ācārya, and it's not that because he is there others before him aren't important, or not senior. Like you see with Rāmānujācārya: he is the Founder-ācārya in the Śrī line, so, therefore, then before him is Yamunācārya, before that is the Ālvārs, so those are all the senior, the previous ācāryas and everything like that. But the point of the Founder-Ācārya is, he is able to show you what is the essence of what the Lord and the devotees are teaching. So what the Lord, what the scriptures, what the vaiṣṇavas are preaching and how to you can use that in your life to attain that same position that the ācāryas are having in their relationship in service with the Lord. So it is very important. So sometimes it is, 'Oh, no, how can you say Prabhupāda is the main, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī...' 'No, no it is Rūpa Gosvāmī would be the Founder-Ācārya.' 'Oh, no, how can you say that? Brahma is the Founder...' None of this. This is all, this is all... No, in the line someone comes and shows. Prabhupāda shows how you approach and understand what Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura said, how Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, how Viśvanātha, like this, how it all holds together. Because otherwise, without that then one will think that they are saying different things. I have even seen devotees in writing their papers and this and that, they say, 'Oh, Viśvanātha says this and Baladeva says that, and, you know, Narottama, and how do we work it all out, and...' That means, because you are not following the Founder-Ācārya, that's why you can't work it out.

So the Founder-Ācārya, it is all perfectly there, that's why we see in our studies, we always study Prabhupāda's books along with the books of the Ācāryas, and you see, they are saying exactly the same thing. But Prabhupāda has worded it so nicely and clearly... Because the principle is always the easiest, the simplest. As you come down, the detail gets more and more, it becomes more complicated. So Prabhupāda is speaking at that level of strategy, that this is how it works. And then uninformed individuals, they decide that, 'Oh, it's so simple, so by the inductive method that means it's lower, so now I am giving more technical details, so I am higher.' But these are just fools and rascals, or they are behaving at least that way. So we have to appreciate that, no, the Founder has said that everybody can understand, and so that's then the whole idea, is that then that comes down, that understanding comes down, it is made practical by the operational heads, it is then followed up and served very nicely by the tactical and technical individuals, and then that whole thing is overseen by that strategic aspect, that the Founder-Ācārya's teachings and the teaching of the Ācāryas, that is what is driving the movement, that is how everything is being decided and not on some other kind-of consideration.

Means, other things can assist, like it says, it means performance of your duty of the Varṇāśrama, as long as they assist them in service of the Lord, they are great. But if they get in the way, what is the point? So the only value is this connection, so that way then we see everything in that context of how it assists, how the services we do, the duties, our different knowledge, our different attachments, everything like this, how we can engage it in the Lord's service? Then everything becomes perfect. And if we try to see that on their own they have a value, then it will always be a distraction.

So, you know, as Tapas Prabhu pointed out, these things have been discussed for a long time, and so, as he said, it takes time. That's why the process is there, the nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā means we are regularly hearing and then like that then all these doubts... Because what is the problem? They are doubts and misgivings. When those are removed then it becomes very clear and very obvious. So that's the whole thing, by that regular association, by the regular discussions, then our doubts... And then it becomes very clear what's to do and how to do, and who we are and who is Kṛṣṇa and what is the material world and how we relate to each other. Then it becomes very wonderful.

So we thank all of you for the opportunity to be able to discuss on these things. Because it's not also... You don't always see it that on this level of how the administration connects with the philosophy and our lifestyle and all that, you don't necessarily have that many individuals who are that worried about it. So to have a group where you can sit and discuss these things very nicely, then that's also a very wonderful opportunity. So we should see, it is not a regular thing. So that all these devotees, you all come together, this is very nice, and so we thank you for all this and the opportunity and that we can have some, assist in some way in this saṅga. Jaya! Śrīla Prabhupāda kī jaya!