Hariḥ Oṁ

saha nāvavatu

saha nau bhunaktu

saha vīryaṁ karavāvahai  

tejasvi nāvadhītamastu mā vidviṣāvahai

oṁ śāntiḥ śāntiḥ śāntiḥ

Oṃ jaya śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda

Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare 

Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare

HH Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Mahārāja: Jaya!

HH Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Mahārāja: You do have the aspects of the words, but, unfortunately, words change on the fly, especially nowadays. I guess, with Covid people sitting at home, they have nothing to do, so they get bored and then they start to really make adjustments. It may go a little more smoothly on your side of the planet, but, let's say, if you go to the other side of the pond over there, you know, they are even trying to figure out how they talk to each other and whether they use non-binary. So, do you talk to them about 'they, them,' or 'zie' or 've' or, you know, all these things. And they just sit around with nothing better to do. So, in one sense, you have the aspect of that word is used in the wrong way, but we want to establish what would be the appropriate, since it is within their field, right? Because the point being made is, when you say how to arrange, that is the point, this is why are you arranging? We are trying to deal with the higher elements of this. Why are you arranging? What is the purpose of arranging? These are the things. So, if someone only thinks, it's like, 'Okay, this guy stands here and that guy stands there, and he is a little taller, so maybe we will switch them around,' and all that, that means, they don't actually understand what the word means. So we are trying to give a proper wording, that would be the aspect.

Second aspect is, since this is something that is being used, it can be appreciated by those who deal in these fields. Because generally those who are working with more practical elements, then they tend to understand it more clearly and easily. Those who have their own kind-of made-up context or concept of what it is, they are the ones that will have more problem with it.

The third thing is is, this practical thing, using the terminologies, that is what we were using before, and you use it yourself in your place. We are using about the caturvyūha and about the vastu-traya. But then the difficulty comes, is, if the words are not immediately understood, then people that are either practical or think they are practical sometimes tend to drop out. And so in here is that because you are dealing with a very complex kind-of aspect, so even if we are presenting it with strategic planning, the thing is more complex than will immediately meet the eye. Means, you can say it in a very simple way, but at the same time is, what is behind all that is going to be a very great volume of understanding to be able to appreciate it in its simplicity. Because, yeah... So the terms that we were showing the same process before, of Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vāsudeva. And here, because it is, you are trying to make that practical application as prominent, then you are seeing it from the Pañcarātrika point of view, of Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna and Aniruddha are for the purpose of... I mean, They are serving the aspects of supporting Vāsudeva, when all these are applied together.

So that is the thing, is that these different aspects, they don't stand on their own. They are always used together in a dynamic way. But the point is, if it is not centered on Kṛṣṇa, it won't work for us. If you center, like we said, on making it about governance of a country to protect the people, or about making profit, or about expressing your feelings, or whatever it is, whatever level you want to use, then it will take on what is... The levels will have completely different applications. So this trying to bring out these aspects... Because whenever we talked about Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vāsudeva, and it's always, you know, 'Which one is which?' No one catches it because with these four things everything is there. Like in sambandha-abhidheya-prayojana, everything about anything with the philosophy and activities and goals is there. Then you have to apply it, right? So then in here, then it's, you are using a format that basically shows the application of it. So the difficulty comes down, is that in the strategy you are dealing with sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana. Then when you go into to the operational, you have to look at sambandha-abhidheya-prayojana there and in the context of the greater, the strategy's sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana. Then when you are looking at the tactical and the technical, you are going to have to look at those in sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana, but you are going to have to see them in the context of the operational sambandha-abhidheya-prayojana and the strategy's sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana.

So the difficulty comes is, you have this overlay. Like Saṅkarṣaṇa means you see the field, so you can see all four of Them, and you can see within each one of Them Their completeness. Pradyumna will be then what is the proper attitude of each of these levels and that, and persons working on these levels, and what are their qualifications? Because if I know the field and that, it doesn't necessarily mean I have the qualifications to apply in the field, right? Like Droṇācārya, he is teaching martial arts, he knows the field. But if he applies the field actually on a battlefield, then he is dealt with as a kṣatriya, no longer a brāhmana, right? So then you are going to get this aspect, is that you can discuss the whole thing, but when you apply it, it has to have that practical application, you have to be able to see all these things. And so, this level, basically it is dealing with all these aspects, but you just have an overlay, so you can tell us, okay, at this top level, how does the circle work? Then when I go to the next work, well, how does that work? How the first and second, they are connected in that the practical and its theory, or its science. And then the tactical and technical are connected because they are the ones that are the details of applying the operation. So, basically, what you have is the application of something and the desire. So you could also put it into jñāna, kriyā and icchā: that the strategy is Kṛṣṇa's desire, what He wants, that actually establishes the mission. Then you are going to apply that through the jñāna and kriyā, right? So that is going to be then what the operational does. So we put the tactical and technical because it is there for the use of those who are applying it. But factually, if you just study the strategy and the operational, you wouldn't have to study more because those who can run operational, they can deal with the rest. Because, like you see, even when the military uses it, they don't get down to the technical or mechanical, they know it is already part of tactical. And tactical is just the major breakdowns of operational. You know, it's like, you have the operational which together can accomplish the strategy. Within that operational then it is going to have departments - that's your tactical. How a department runs - that's your technical.

So, basically, you have operational and that, you have Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. You have Kṛṣṇa's desire, and Balarāma is the Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead, then He applies that. But the problem is is that if we discuss it on that level, people will say, 'Oh, it's just philosophy, it's not practical.' And who is going to say that? One, either someone who is practical that hasn't seen the full thing, or people who think they are practical, but they are not. So then the difficulty comes down, is that it is not understood that unless you  have the knowledge of Saṅkarṣaṇa, you can't run the field. Unless you have the proper attitude and qualifications of Pradyumna, you cannot run the field. And unless you know what the goal is, of Aniruddha, you cannot run the field. And unless you understand how these three connect together and how they function, how one turns into the next, you can't run the field. Right? But that is the whole point, is that you have Kṛṣṇa and from His svarūpa everything is coming, from His desire everything is coming. And He expands as Balarāma, He expands as Vāsudeva to effect all these different things. And His energies also then, He is there, Rādhārāṇī is there, He is interacting with Her, and then Yogamāyā is the other feature of the svarūpa-śakti that therefore takes care of the practical management of the scene. Kṛṣṇa wants to dance with the gopīs, but you have to have the scene arranged, you have to have the field. Therefore it is the śarat-pūrṇimā, right? You have to have the action that's there, you know, playing of the flute and that, it will call the gopīs. They come, there has to be the music, Vṛndā is arranging the instruments, Lalitā is arranging that everybody is sweeping the sands there down at the Yamunā. And so, all that together then means, now Kṛṣṇa's desire can be fulfilled. So you can take it, strategy means Kṛṣṇa's desire. That's why I was saying yesterday that it is a completely bogus approach to think that we will establish the strategy. It is Kṛṣṇa's desire, we don't say what Kṛṣṇa's desire is. We take the Kṛṣṇa's desire from the ācāryas and we apply it. And the operational is, because Kṛṣṇa is the Lord of His Creation and Balarāma is in charge of that, He makes, He manifests all these things and expands, He does things how Kṛṣṇa likes. And these things, how do we know what Kṛṣṇa likes? It is mentioned in the śāstra. And then, being mentioned in the śāstra, then the ācāryas then give it to us in practical ways we can use it. So that means, the strategy, or Kṛṣṇa's desire and the operational has already been established, and even the technical knowledge you need to run that operational is already established by Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma way before the material world is even expanded. Right?

Then you have Dvārakā, and you have Vaikuṇṭha, and all that. Then you have the Puruṣa-avatāras. So the whole field is being established with Kāraṇodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Then you have in the universe and then the qualifications, the different things of the individuals and all that, according to their karma, by Pradyumna, or Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. And then you have the individual of what they are trying to obtain and what they actually get by their endeavor from Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, or Supersoul in their heart. So the point is is, all this is already established, we just simply have to follow what is there. It's just like, let's say, we want to go out and play a game. Let's say, like we want to play football. We don't have to make the rules, we are not Calvin here. We don't have to make the rules. We simply have to know them well and then follow them. And the better we follow them the better the game goes.

So the idea of this strategic planning is: understand, the game is already there, the rules are there. This idea that we will sit down and we are going to create this is just the residue of 'I am the controller and I am the enjoyer. I am the creator, I make things happen.' We do have it in a small degree. Kṛṣṇa has already established what has to do. Kṛṣṇa already has it, like Mother Yaśodā cooks it, Rādhārāṇī cooks it. It is not that Mother Yaśodā and Rādhārāṇī work out, 'Well, you know, what could we do with all this? What if we melted some silver and put that in here? And then hot thing that there is, heat also makes a hot air balloon, so while we are flying in the sky, then we'll do...' You don't have to do that. So that is what we are trying to do with this paper, is make it very clear that what we have to do is follow in the footsteps of Śrīla Prabhupāda and the ācāryas serving Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī to please Lord Caitanya in His mission - that's what we have to do. And this whole idea that we are going to sit down, we are going to work it all out, we are going to do all that - it is completely, one, unnecessary, and two, it is impossible. You can't work out what Kṛṣṇa wants, Kṛṣṇa already says what He wants. He gave a two-month conversation with Sanātana Gosvāmī, and then He spoke with Rūpa Gosvāmī, and He spoke with Rāmānanda Rāya, so we understand the sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana. And what gets in the way? All this māyāvāda, impersonal - He spoke that with Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya and with Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī. So it's already been worked out. Then we use our brain how to make it, use it practical in our situation on the ground. So we see what is the samaṣṭi or the universal, and what is the vyaṣṭi, what is it that we do? And you have to be able to put the two together, right? So it is Kṛṣṇa that you are trying to please, and the institution is there for that purpose, the individual is there for that purpose. And the institution is made of individuals, but both of them have to see things on the platform of... Because the institution is an operational position, and so you have to see it in the context of the strategy that Śrīla Prabhupāda has given us and the ācāryas have given us. And so then, in that way is that if you know that much philosophy, then we could discuss it just on that level and just by discussing Bhāgavatam it would all happen. Discussing pure devotional service would be enough to make it happen.

You know, just like this: how do you deal with pride? Right? So we will have our mechanical things, there is, 'No, no, you gotta put him down or put him in his place, or, you know, there has got to be something to adjust somebody's mentality,' and all this. As if anybody knows how to do that. So Hari Vilāsa was mentioning on one walk with Śrīla Prabhupāda, he asked him, 'Prabhupāda, how do you develop humility?' And he made the point, is that when you have complete faith that nothing other than serving Kṛṣṇa is going to give you any benefit, that will make you humble. So you become humble not by these modern methods or by your own method. You become humble because you understand that my position in society, my money, my family, my knowledge, my techniques... Prabhupāda even mentions, my gun, my car, anything - none of that is going to have actually any effect on you going back to Godhead. These are tools you can use, but it's not because I have a fabulous can opener that's why my cooking is so good. No, you can open the can, basically, with a knife and cook the same thing. It just makes it easier, that's all. So that is when you use the recommended processes, it just makes it easier.

But you see, Prahlāda Mahārāja is a pure devotee despite the obstacles his father is putting in front of him. And his father is well connected, so he has all these elephants, the war elephants that can trample him, he has all these weirdo guys that can put together a pot of boiling oil and that and have fun doing, he has the snakes, he has all that stuff. And still Prahlāda Mahārāja goes on. So, therefore, just discussing Bhāgavatam, Caitanya-caritāmṛta and that - that is enough. Prabhupāda says, it is enough that you can run this thing as it is. But since individuals are using the strategic planning... I think it was started in the 1980s, but especially in the 1990s, then they got into these self-help kind-of things, how to manage things. Because they gave up the descending process of just trying to attain pure devotional service and what does that and thought that, 'Oh, no, we have to use more of a prāṇa-maya approach, that no, we have to have all good qualities, we have to be seen in the right political context and all that.' Prabhupāda didn't care at all for those things. People are purified, they will appreciate. They are not purified - doesn't matter how intelligent or not, they won't appreciate. It's that simple. So, by exposing them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is what is going to  make them appreciate. But we are foolishly thinking, 'No, no, if I have all these modern accepted qualities, that's what is going to make everybody love us,' when it won't. You follow Kṛṣṇa's rules to please Kṛṣṇa - that will make, the people will be attracted by that purity - that would be the force. It says, 'purity is the force.' It doesn't doesn't say 'social political correctness is the force,' 'being woke is the force' - it doesn't say that. So that's the thing, is that Bhagavad-gītā already explains all this. Arjuna used this on the battlefield, and he won, right? Yudhiṣṭhira, everybody, you can see them all using it. But you have to know nicely the philosophy and put it together. But we tend to think, 'Oh, we don't have to worry about all this philosophy, you know, because we are being practical, Prabhu. Yeah, that philosophy is nice, but we are being practical.' But the point is is, how practical is it? How much, what good effect is there?

So that's the whole thing - one has to appreciate, is that it is already there in its natural form. But since of all the modern self-help or managerial style strategic planning is the most complete... It is not fully complete, and when it is being presented in our meetings, they are only presenting two out of four aspects of the catur-vyūha. I surmise, that's because people don't really understand it, so those two are enough that they kind-of a little bit get their hands wet. But it is the most complete, and because you are using it in these, when you add in that it is for Kṛṣṇa, then it comes within that Pañcarātrika context of Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna and Aniruddha are being used to please Kṛṣṇa, to fulfill Kṛṣṇa's desire. And so, then it becomes very dynamic. So that's why it means, in this introduction we were... Because we were keeping it more generic, then we are not using as much of the Sanskrit terms and all those things. But as you see, we go into this next section, the philosophy and all those things will be brought out more directly. So we are just getting a general idea, so that people can understand, 'Oh, okay, so that's what strategic planning is.' Because right now how it is being presented, no one really seems to understand it, because who is able to really seriously apply it?

That's the thing, it's like you see in Americas, you have all the woke politics and all that. And all those who are the most woke, those mayors and those governors - their cities and states are literally falling apart. Literally, you can watch them fall apart. And those who stick to the more kind-of classic traditional things - they have more stable places. And it's obvious because people from those areas that are more woke are packing their bags and moving down to the more traditional places. So it's practical. So we are just going through this. And also then it has the element of being a little, having a little bit of fun to it. Just like when we present Manu-saṁhitā, we use the translation that Max Müller used to try to destroy the Vedic system in India. We use the same translation to establish it and destroy his perspective. So, in the same way, we are using the strategic planning, but we are using it in its original full state, like that. No one uses it in this full state. And you also have that they work that strategic planning and go, 'Okay, this is what we have, and with this we can do this, therefore this is the goals we can establish,' right? So that will be an inductive way, or starting from vyaṣṭi and trying to figure out what to do. And others say, 'Okay, this is the goal we want, these are the things we have to do, so how do we establish the field, so we can do that?' Right? In neither of them is that all put together, where they are functioning simultaneously and for the pleasure of Kṛṣṇa. So they get part of it, but they don't get the complete Pañcarātrika understanding of how it works. Is this making any sense there, Gurudāsa?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, please! Woke? Oh, good! That means... See, by not knowing what 'woke' is, means you are not woke. That's good. Woke means, it is the kind of consciousness of those who are politically correct and think political correctness is a lifestyle, as opposed to those who use political correctness because it's the political way of diplomacy. It's just like the ambassador of one country goes to visit another country. Now, the two countries are having problems, right? So they use diplomacy or their political correctness to discuss in such a way that they don't offend the other party, right? So it has always been there, it is just part of this. Diplomacy has always been there, it is part of how everybody deals. Like the mother, she goes, 'Oh, here, my dear child, take this medicine!' And he goes, 'Oh, does it taste bad?' Does she say, 'Oh, no, it's absolutely disgusting, you know. I mean, I really hate this medicine and all that. But please, my dear child, take it, it will make you feel better!' Is that what she does? She goes, 'No, no, no, it's very nice, nice, you don't like candy? Yum-yum-yum-yum, okay, you take it,' you know, it's like that. So everybody does it, but then they will say, if you say, 'Diplomacy, oh, that's bad. Political correctness, oh, that's correct, it's good!' But correctness is defining politics. They are taking it, 'No, correctness is the thing, I'm being correct. It may be political, but I am correct.' No, you are being political and there are ways to be correct about being political that get your job done. But there are people who actually believe this is a real lifestyle and philosophy, and that then, it generally tends to, if you take it too far, you are going to end up with your socialism and communism and all those kind-of things. It will become orwellian, you know '1984'. In other words... You have read '1984'? Okay, or you have heard about it? Okay. So there is one thing in there where the countries... It's been so long, I don't remember the countries, where the one country, they are reprinting their history books because this other country that was an ally now did something they don't like. So now they show, from eternity they have always been bad people. Then if it changes, they again rewrite their history to say they have always been good people.

So that is the effect, if you go so far into woke, that's what you end up. But people actually think it is a good platform, it is an ideal platform. So this kind-of thing where we try to pander to these people, when these are the people that are not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are interested in their own self-centered, in other words, they try to make it that anna-maya is the main platform, and everybody... And the element of prāṇa-maya is that everyone should accept everyone else's anna-maya platform and just go with it, as long as it is a list of accepted anna-mayic platforms. So, your platform, my platform might be all right, but, you know, the third party, we don't agree with them. So it doesn't matter what they do, they are wrong, and we, no matter what we do, are always right. Does that make sense? So that's the whole thing, is we have to be very careful that these kind-of pollutants don't come into our methods and all that. Means, your other things, your equality and making everyone... So, therefore everybody can do it. Okay, if anybody then can do it then why not make anybody a GBC? 'No, no, no, they have to have this kind-of training,' this, that, okay. 'So then they have to have training and all that, great. Where is your training coming from?' You know what I am saying? So, the difficulty comes up, is when we pick and choose as we please and not base it on Kṛṣṇa, then it is a problem. That is, individual is important, but we have to understand that the vyaṣṭi or the personal perspective has to be within the context of the samaṣṭior Kṛṣṇa's perspective. Because everything is Kṛṣṇa, that's how He sees it. It is all Him, it is all working according to His energies, how He likes. So, therefore, if we want to function in that, we can try to act without Kṛṣṇa and act in a way that we think it will be good for us, and that is called sin, and then we get bad reactions and you glide down to hell.

When you follow the laws of God, even if you don't accept God, you elevate yourself to a certain degree within the material world because you are at least following God's law in God's creation. You don't like God, but you are only following God's law for yourself, but you are more pious, you go to the heavenly planets, you become wealthy, this, that, all these things. But that is why we are only interested in a devotional educational model, because it has to be about Vāsudeva. It is not enough, Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna and Aniruddha, and with those three trying to do things. It has to be applied to please Kṛṣṇa dynamically. So then, that is then where the principle comes up, is that we are going to see how all these things are seen in the context that we can see the descending model. Because the modern one is completely using an ascending process, but the Vedic is descending, not ascending. So, means, it descends down to us, and we can connect ourself. Like if you remember our discussions on Manu, that you have the Śruti, the Veda. Then supporting that you have the Smṛti, like Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavatam and that. Then you have what the ācāryas and the great vaiṣṇavas say, and even down to your local senior devotees and all that. Then... That's the third level, then the fourth is myself, what is my nature, what can I do with what is given in the first three, how can I fit into it? Like that. So that has to be there.

But when you say 'equality' then 'I don't fit, but I want to do it, so that's okay,' and that kind of situation doesn't work. Those things fail. Those governments, those businesses, those educations, they fail. Because we don't make up the laws of nature, Kṛṣṇa already made them. So Arjuna says, 'I will go to the forest and sit down there,' and Kṛṣṇa says, 'You are a kṣatriya, you won't be able to sit down there. You will go out in the forest, and as soon as you see something wrong, you will be fighting again.' So His point is, use your nature, that kṣatriya nature, in Kṛṣṇa's service. That's then the perfection. So that's the whole point of the vyaṣṭi: where do we fit in? Because every level has all four levels because... Means, you have the levels and how they connect, but then when you apply it, let's say, you are working at the strategic level - that means that is for the GBCs, that is their level of action. So they have to understand what is the strategy, what is their role in it as a GBC secretary. So, being a GBC secretary is an operational element, right? And then tactical: what are they going to do, they have X amount of temples, they are going to go to this one and that one, what they are going to do at these temples? And then the technical is: when they get to the temple they will look around, they will see what it's like, they talk to the devotees, they give classes, see how everyone is going. And then they will be able to appreciate: is this temple moving forward in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Are they attaining the strategy? And you can check, you know, money is coming in, books are going out, these. But you are not managing it. By looking at accounts you are not managing the temple. You are just seeing things are going, it is going up, nice. We are making more money this month, nice. Are they taking care of the devotees? What is the quality of the prasāda? Yeah, there is more money, but the quality of prasāda went down. That means, 'No, no, no, you have to put on that,' like this, 'you have to take care of devotees, you do all these different things.' But those are all principles. They are not telling them how to take care, they are just saying, 'You have to take care, you have to feed nicely, you have to have the quality. There must be quality kīrtana, there must be quality of this and that,' that's what you are telling them, that is the authority of the GBC, to tell them what to do. Not, 'Oh, why are you spending this money here? You should, instead of buying this pen, you should have bought that pen. I always use this pen, it's a better pen, you are wasting money.' That's not the business. Unless the guy says, 'Hey, I gotta buy a pen, you know, and they always break. What pen do you use? I always see you got a...' 'Oh, I use this,' then, okay. But otherwise you tell them what to do. You are supposed to get the devotees out on saṅkīrtana, you don't have to tell him how to. That the president will work out. And he has got the saṅkīrtana leader, and he will discuss with him.

So, all four levels are there for the GBC. Same way, all four levels are there for the temple president. He has to understand what is the strategy and how the temple connects to that strategy, right? Then he has to understand, 'Okay, as far as the temple goes, we in our position, in this particular city we are in and the location we are at and the people we have, we can run a temple, we can run an average Deity worship program. But we can have some big programs because, let's say, we have an Indian community. So we either get a big building or we rent a hall, you know, there is one available. But we have very good opportunities, a lot of tourists, we can do a lot of saṅkīrtana and Harināma, and we can have a restaurant.' Right? But he doesn't have a farm, he doesn't have a BBT, he does that. So, of all the operational things his temple only has these ones. We go to the next  temple, and they don't have the opportunity so much for the Harināma, they have for something else. So then he has to see what operational. Once he has understood, 'Okay, this is the operational we can do as the president,'  then it is the tactical. 'Okay, what are the divisions of this? So then we need someone in the Deity worship, like that. But since it is not a big Deity worship, you can do other things. We have the guys on Harināma and saṅkīrtana, they are both so big that we are going to have one in charge of Harināma and one in charge of saṅkīrtana, two different departments, like that. We have a restaurant, somebody is in charge of that. We have, of course, our temple commander and our treasurer and secretary. And so then, okay, these are all our tactical areas.' Now then either if they are good enough he can work it out, he tells them, 'Okay, now you work out the technical, how this is going to do,' he gives them the direction, 'Your department does this to attain the strategy,' and then they make  the effort. And if they don't, they can't figure it out, as the president, as a manager he can get down into the detail of, 'Hey, you know, first, when you are finished with saṅkīrtana, fill the bus up with petrol, then come back to the temple, so you can immediately go straight out on the saṅkīrtana.' Not that you get up in the morning, go out, you get, you know, two blocks away and you run out of petrol and you lose three hours because you have to walk to the petrol station.

So he can get down to those details, because he is a manager. While the GBC won't do that, unless they ask them, 'Hey, when they always do these stupid things, we lose so much time...' 'Okay, what are they doing?' And he says, and he will say, 'Well, from my experience, when I used to run saṅkīrtana back in the 1970s and 1980s and that, then we did this...' And he will go, 'Oh, okay, okay.' And then he does what he feels works in his place. But the point is is... That's the point: Ultimate Managerial Authority means they are the authority of managers. So managers manage, and so management then has to have an authority - that is the GBC. So they are very dynamic and very involved, but you have to understand how the strategy applies at your level, right?

Then you go down to the tactical level. Okay. So then you have the strategy, you have that operational and all those kind-of things that are above you. But then within it, okay, 'My strategy, I have to get that, okay, this many books go out. And then for this many books to go out, that would require us to go out to the malls, go out to the different sports programs and go to the festivals, like that, and also on the street corners in the business district.' Okay, so he has four operational. 'Now, how am I going to do all these things? So this brahmacārī takes care of this one, this one, this one, this one...' Then you have your tactical. And then that is going to be the practical: this guy has a bus. Then there is four buses or there is three buses, or two buses, or one bus. Or they all go out and take the public bus. Does that make sense? Only the technical - that is not a managerial position, that's just the technique of how things work, right? I take the things, I put them in the blender. I put the top on the blender. The blender is plugged in. I push the correct button, it blends, right? I don't put the top on, then i have to clean the ceiling, right? So, one, I waste a lot of stuff that I blended and two, I waste time cleaning the ceiling, right? Three, it also makes the guy, the head of the tactical, really upset. And then, not only that, but because he gets upset all the time, then that brings in the temple president, and that gets really annoying, right? So, therefore, I am going to put the lid on this. But it is just  technical stuff on how to be practical.

So you see is, most strategic planning is only talking technical with a little tactical. And sometimes, on rare occasions they will hit operational. But they will never get actually strategic. Otherwise why is it at the meeting, 'Oh, what do you want us to... Where do you see ISKCON in 20 years? What would you call ISKCON's become successful, what would be the symptoms?' These are just, these are tactical and technical points. But they are presented in a grand style, so it sounds like it is strategy, when it's not strategy. Strategy means people are becoming God conscious and advancing from śraddhā to prema, right? Operational is our temples, our communities, these things are flourishing, rather than, 'No, there is more Deities in our temple than there are devotees.' That means there is something wrong. So one has to know what one is dealing with, and then the whole thing works very, very.... It is a very simple, straightforward system - that's the nice thing about it. Because in this particular form, thought it was worked out in the kṣatriyas, I mentioned, then to make it very clear in the Western Europe it was that... What's it? The Von Clausewitz? What was his name?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Von Clausewitz. So he worked it out. There is also another, Jahromi (?), he also worked, but he was more down on operational and than, rather than on the strategic. Not that Von Clausewitz doesn't give all the details of all those tactical and technical. I mean, most of the book is that. But he points out in the beginning that people are foolish for thinking that the tactical and technical is that that's why that general succeeded. No, he succeeded because he was convinced of that 'We want peace for our country, and to get that peace we have to stop these other countries from bothering us. And since diplomacy as an operational didn't work, we are using war as an operation.' And then in the war, of course, then you are going to have your tactical and technical things on where they get, where they do, where they do like that. So he says, it's a fool that, 'Oh no, they went in and they flanked this way, and they flanked that way, and that's why they won the battle.' And his point is is, no, these are idiots. Because who are saying that? Academics, as they study from their chair, right? And so, he is pointing out this, 'No it's not that.' You have to see it's the higher. You are trying to attain the higher level. The lower levels are only in support of the higher level. While in academics and in class, they just learn the lower levels, and by memorizing that, then you think 'Oh, now I am a great personality.' That's why a lot of times even you see problems, even within the military, between those who are office... How you say? Office officers, and those who are field officers. I am not sure if there is some more technical name, but those who are out in the field, who have been in battle with the men, they look at it quite differently than the ones who sit in an office and have never been out there, out of their office. And sometimes they have big, big arguments, especially if the higher officer is the one who sits at the office. They'll have problems because he will look at things that just by, you know, 'You do this, you do that,' while the other one is, 'No, you have a goal and you see in the situation if that works.' Like you say, 'No, but you have to go up the hill here,' you know, because they made the plan from their office, it was great. But when the sergeant gets there, the major gets there, he figures out, 'No, they have a bunker there. If we go up the hill we are all dead.' So since you want to attain this particular thing of taking this hill, 'We have to flank the hill because there is enough underbrush, they can't see. We can come in from around behind and we can get there.' Means, in D-Day, that's the only way they got all those  bunkers on the beach, was by flanking them. I mean, they lost thousands of men just to get far enough to flank. But when they did flank, those guys were roasted, and literally: they used flamethrowers.

And so, then that's because you know what the strategy is. If it's just a matter of, 'All I do is just follow the order,' then it won't work. And that's what happens in the bureaucracy, they just want the president to just do what they tell him. He is not using his brain, which is just the opposite of what Prabhupāda wanted. Prabhupāda wanted that temple president is thinking how to best apply this strategy into the operational thing I am doing, and then they come up with all kinds of amazing things. And you will say, 'Oh, but where is the unification?' Unification is the mission of Lord Caitanya. Unification is not that every temple has the same amount of brahmacārīs and uses the same program. It is that different places have something different. I mean, how many temples have over a hundred brahmacārīs and only two gṛhasthas living in the temple, and they have a community of 10, 12-15,000 people and the community manages the temple, but the brahmacārīs manage the brahmacārīs, the Deity worship and the preaching? Go ahead, name me other than one temple that I know of, name me another one like that! Even in the same zone they can't all do that. So, that is the need for each individual temple president to be individually thoughtful, know what the strategy is, know the options of the operational and therefore apply himself practically into the tactical and technical, and get the results. But this thing where everybody has got to be a clone, then it won't work. I mean, if you look at it, what happens when the clones go through doors? Right? They always hit their head on the door. They are not that smart. So we should not try to put our effort into making everyone clones. It doesn't even work for those who make clones as an army, right?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: They have to spend time. So like you see, it's not an uncommon thing that someone who was a leader in the field and actually won the the battle and won the, whatever it is, the independence or got over the trouble, many times the people want them as the leader of the country after that is over. We see, Washington was like that, in England Churchill, you know, all these other countries. Then they go for it. Somehow or another only Robespierre didn't quite make it, but, you know... So the thing is that they are practical. So that's the idea, we even see in Manu-saṃhitā, is that when he is dealing with people who are going to be his ministers and that, they may be brāhmanas, but they have to be brāhmanas that can practically work in the field. They don't just give advice. They might have someone who just give advice, but they have to have ones that are practical. And even they have the Śāstric committee, who is, you know, in case there is something that they don't quite know what way to go about it. One way it may be practical, but is it supported by Śāstra? So you have a group of brāhmanas that just deal with the Śāstra. But they have to know the practical application of the Śāstra in the kṣatriya field to be qualified to work at that. So in the Vedic, if it is not applicable, it is not science. And if you don't know the science and are applying it, then what you are doing is just an art. And by karma you may be good at your art, but then the problem is is, it is not necessarily going to be consistent. Or, when your karma runs out you will have nothing. So is that all right, Jī?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, okay.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Haribol!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, you want  an explanation of the whole 30 pages, and from the perspective of the spiritual master?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, no, no... [Laughter] See, it's like Tattvavāda pointed out, is because everyone doesn't have the material, they can't go through it and see what is where and everything like that, so... But because it is a work in progress, we are not giving it out because it is still being developed. And even as we are going through it now, certain things are coming up from vaiṣṇavas... So, see, the spiritual master, you have the overall where you are looking at it that having a spiritual master, that is part of the strategy, that a living entity, if they want to elevate themselves, they need a spiritual master because the association of vaiṣṇavas is the only way that you can advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And then, from that then you can, by hearing and following the instructions, then you can purify the heart and come to the position of complete faith, right? And when you have that pure, that full faith, then you become situated nicely in devotional service. Because before that then faith is, it means, you have dṛḍha-śraddhā, or, it will be coming up, firm faith, and komala-śraddhā, which means, you could say it is... Prabhupāda uses the word 'pliable', there is another word to use, I don't remember the other word, but it just means you can be easily influenced. What was that?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Soft and pliable, okay. So soft, it's soft, means, you can mold it. So the faith could be molded in any direction. You are out on the street and you bump into somebody who is quite strong about their views, and you can get disturbed and affected. And you come back to the temple, and devotees have to talk to you for a few hours and then your head is back on straight. And then, you know, you are good. So that is the thing, is soft faith. While then the other is firm faith. Means, it is fixed. So that's why niṣṭha, even though śraddhā is the first thing you start with in the process, then the niṣṭha on the madhyama platform, it actually means firm faith. So before that was a soft faith, or pliable faith. And until anarthas are gotten rid of, then it won't come to the point of being fixed. Then being fixed, now you have the faith that only devotional service, only pure devotional service is of any value and everything else is of no value. I mean, literally, no value. And so, if it has a context that it is useful in Kṛṣṇa's service for advancing, that only gives it a value. But if it doesn't have, it doesn't have a value on its own. In other words, the material world doesn't have a value on its own, other than its ability to be used effectively in Kṛṣṇa's service. But if it's not being used in Kṛṣṇa's service, there is no value. So it is not that money inherently has value, or social status inherently has value, or having mundane good qualities inherently has value. No. All of these are useless if they are not connected to the Lord. So when you have the faith that only by the pure devotional service you will advance, not by karma, not by yoga, not by jñāna, not by being a nice guy, not by being charitable, not by being... It's only that, that then makes you qualified. Then you see yourself as purely a servant of Kṛṣṇa, that has that humility that is talked about in the Śikṣāṣṭakam in the third verse, right? Then from that you can get taste, from taste you can get attachment, from that you can come to rati, or bhāva. So rati is a particle, one unit of spiritual... How you say? Spiritual ecstasy, you can say. And then when there is more, then you get prema, you get sneha, rāga, māna, anurāga and mahābhāva. Like this, it goes up through those eight levels. So rati is the smallest singular unit. Then if you have fragments of that, you can get faith, ruci and āsakti. But they are not full, when you have all that together, it becomes one, then you have rati, you have that attraction for the Lord. So, but those fragments are real. So now those fragments going into the, for the karmīs, then they become distorted. Your attraction becomes distorted, so it is not normal human, necessarily, attraction. So someone who is just about themselves, they don't care about God, they don't care about morality, which is, you know, very popular... Take, if you want a good example of that, take James Bond, right? It is just about himself. And he is good, and he is right, he is civilized, he is really good, like that. But it is very distorted. It is all about sex, money, power, this and that, getting his job done, saying quippy one-liners, you know, like that,  that is his whole taste. So it is distorted. When you get into prāna-maya where you kind-of accept morality and the whole social thing, then it starts to become ordered, but not so much, a little bit ordered, you know, okay, there is these things. When you accept God's laws or theistic view, then it becomes more ordered, but still these two platforms are still distorted, they are not actually... God is there, but they don't know who God is. We are the soul, but they don't really know who the soul is. 'Yeah, we want to elevate ourselves and go to the kingdom of God,' but they are only going to the heavenly planets, they are not actually going back to Godhead, right? Unless they are talking about love for God. They are just talking about being good, and it's like that. Does that make sense? Yeah. So, only when you come to the platform... Or, if you want merging into Brahman, you want liberation, then this is still distorted. It may be very well ordered and that, like that, śāstra defines these things, but it's still distorted because it's not about pure devotional service.

So only the sādhana-bhakta, there now there is no distortion. But it is smoke, it is only a fragment. There is a little bit of faith, there is a little bit of taste, a little bit of attachment, and with time that grows and grows and grows, until it becomes bhāva, right? So then this is then what the process is, right? It should be, you come in contact with Kṛṣṇa, like the gopīs, they immediately fall in love with Him. They immediately start with a dṛḍha-śraddhā, or that firm faith on the spontaneous platform. And everybody else below that, then they have soft faith, which is getting more and more firm as you go. And so, that requires a spiritual master. So, since prema is our goal, to get there, you need the spiritual master to get us there, and the process of devotional service, right? And then in that, since we are... Then we see, as Rūpa Gosvāmī then established the concept of Viśva-vaiṣṇava Rāja-sabhā, or an institution of vaiṣṇavas that work together to push on the movement of Lord Caitanya, then we see that that principle of institution comes down. So the spiritual master is seeing that you are moving forward from śraddhā to prema, and at the same time is, you are seeing how do you fit into the institution that you can engage yourself. Because without the association of vaiṣṇavas how are you going to advance? You know, it's not like sitting in downtown Amsterdam, it's like you have fabulous association and all that, you will just naturally come to the platform of prema. No, you need vaiṣṇavas, you need association, you need activities, practically to engage yourself, right? So the institution, while you are helping others, that engages everybody, right? So then that sets what is the actual ultimate goal of the strategy, and it sets the principles within the strategy of the institution, and then the practical manifestation of the institution in the operational. And then it is a matter of, 'Well, and then where do I fit into the tactical, technical points? Am I GBC? Am I a temple project leader? Am I a divisional leader? Am I someone who is just doing my best serving under the other devotees?' Right? Does that make sense?

So that's what the spiritual master is seeing that you do, and they are doing the same thing for themselves. They are taking association of the vaiṣṇavas, they are practicing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they, according to their position as a preacher, as a leader, then they are seeing where they fit into the whole thing, like that, right? And when we talk about Varṇāśrama, Varṇāśrama is an institutional element. So it is one of the things that we use on the operational platform. I mean, it is given from the strategy, but how do we fit in, how do we operate it, that's just the mode of... What is guṇa and karma, what is your nature? Right? Vaiṣṇavas by nature, then because they know Kṛṣṇa as Brahman, they are brāhminical. So by āśrama they are all brāhminical, right? So all vaiṣṇavas are brāhmanas. But now, what service, what technical work can they do that will maintain themselves within their own life and in the society - that's according to guṇa and karma. Because the point is is, you can say, 'We are not this body,' go ahead, how is 1/10,000th the tip of the hair going to distribute a book? Right? That book is billions of times bigger than you. How are you going to pick it up? How are you going to... You know, even you have got the book floating in the air, you are somehow or another 'Ehhhh,' holding it up, and then how you are going to talk to those people to tell them, 'Hey, take this book,' and like that. So, you need a body. And by what kind of body you have, it has a mind, it has an intelligence, and so then you can't function outside of that. You only have your certain amount of intelligence, you don't have more. You have intelligence, but... [breaks, indistinct]

[01:02:41] [breaks, indistinct]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: The specialness about the vaiṣṇavas, he has the ability to apply his intelligence to serve Kṛṣṇa, and that's the special intelligence. You know, they always say we use one tenth for our brain matter? And they wonder what's the other nine tenths for, and they come up with foolish things like Lucy or something. But the point is is, no, that other nine tenths is for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You only need one tenth to do the mechanical stuff, right? So that is being used as vaiṣṇavas, but then what you can do? Means, in other words, if you can't drive, you can't drive. You can't say is, 'Well, I'm not this body, Prabhu, and so, you know, and everybody is equal, and so therefore there is no discrimination, so, therefore, I am going to drive the saṅkīrtana bus.' That won't work. Even the karmīs won't accept that logic, right? Can you tell the police officer, 'Oh you're discriminating, Officer! Because you are saying because I don't have the qualification to drive, therefore my driving is wrong. But I feel like driving!' Are they going to accept? So that's the whole thing is, you have to do. Who can do what? Who can manage, manages. Who can do whatever it is that you are doing, that's what they do. Like as devotees everybody can do an āratika and an offering, right? But to do six of them a day, every day, day in day out, only those that have, either they are very advanced in devotional service, so they are just functioning as vaiṣṇavas serving the Lord, or they have a brāhminical nature that they can work in that area. Do you understand? So, therefore, brahmacārīs, vānaprasthas and sannyāsīs, that's all a brāhminical thing. It is within the gṛhasta that you have the divisions on how they are going to take care of themselves. But at the same time is, what feature, what area you work in, you should have a knowledge and ability in that area. Otherwise then what is the meaning? Does that make sense?

So the spiritual master, knowing what is his nature, he will work in those areas. Just like, let's say, there are those that are very comfortable on campus, at the university. They can talk to those people, they have no problem. Other people have problem with them. But others, they can, let's say, let's just even talk education. Others can work, let's say, in the middle school and inspire them. But it's just within the university you are dealing with adults, and secondary education you are dealing with teenagers, right? And some people, they work really good with kids in the primary and they can get them inspired and get them doing. So it is a matter of what nature you can do, and do that. But they are all working in education. So, there is a general area, they preach in education, but which area... And some can do two, some can do all three, some can only do one. And even in primary, they like the younger primary, someone like a little bit older primary. Some can just work with the boys, some with the girls, some can work with both. And that's just one area. Some go out, they like, they can preach to the Indians, some go out and they preach... Like that, you have prison preaching, you know, it takes a particular mentality to be able to go down there and do all that. So that is the whole thing, is where you can preach, where you can do, where you can be of service, that's what you do. The overall is all brāhminical, but the point is is, you still figure out what you are good at and you apply it. Does that make sense? So did this answer your question, or...?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, but who is their authority, where is the question coming from? Is this coming from an administrative and economic, you are talking about the people, influence over people? Are you talking about the spiritual? Which one are you talking about? Because the question, obviously, is that their spiritual master, that is how it works. You can't be a spiritual master if you don't have a spiritual master. If you are not talking what your spiritual master says, you can't be a spiritual master. That is the obvious answer. But if we want to get into the modern kind-of mundane politics, then, 'Oh, who is in control of the manpower? Who is in control of the money? Why he gets donations? Why aren't they giving to the temple? You know, we are doing everything for Kṛṣṇa.' Yeah, but they don't like your management and how you deal with everybody, and they like this preacher. 'No, no, but they can't give there. I am the lord of this city. This city is mine, you know, it has my name all over it. And so, any donation here has to come through me. I am the way, I am the light, I am the truth.' Right? The WLT. And so, then... But the thing is is, no. A gṛhastha, it is his money, it is not your money. If it is your money then what is the meaning of him, one, working for it, and two, what is the meaning of him giving it in charity? Where is the benefit for him? It is his money, 100 percent. A gṛhastha makes money, it is his money, totally. Then he likes to give it for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if he feels this devotee is doing nicely and that inspires him, he gives there, and someone else gives here. To say, 'No, no, you have to give here,' that doesn't work. It is natural.

Point is is, if you preach nicely, you serve the community and they are inspired, why they won't give you? But to say is, 'No, no, they can't give, I have to approve of it,' no you don't, it's not your business, that's community. You don't control their lives. So if you are, then you pay the bills, you take care of everything. The father can tell his son, 'You can do... You have to be back by ten o'clock at night, you can't roll in at two in the morning.' Why? Because he is feeding him, doing everything. But if the temple is doing nothing for them, 'Oh, we have the temple and all that,' yeah. But you are not making it where they feel comfortable to come, they don't feel inspired, they don't feel involved. So then what are you doing for them practically? And then you are saying they have to give all their money to you? It's like, you know, how is that working out for everybody? Right? They are not giving anything. So they can't give to them, and they can't, they don't want to give to the temple, then they give them nothing, and they just go buy a new house and become more materialistic, and that's real, serious preaching. So the whole thing is, once you get to the mundane level, you can't work things out. Why? Kṛṣṇa, being the source of everything, everything comes from Him, literally, from His svarūpa everything expands, right? So now, if it is all coming from His svarūpa, that means everything in the cosmos is part of Him and it has its perfect place in its connection with Him. There is nothing that doesn't, is not harmonious with anything else when Kṛṣṇa is the center, nothing! And so, but that is because it is acintya-śakti, that reconciles everything. But now, let's say, we take on the material platform, you see differences between that. But if Kṛṣṇa is not the center, the material energy doesn't have this inconceivable potency to reconcile everything, it doesn't have it. Therefore you can't reconcile these things. This guy is a gṛhastha, this guy is a brahmacārī, you can't reconcile it. But if you put Kṛṣṇa in the center, all these things are reconciled and everybody has their place in what they do. Like I said, the gṛhasthas, they take care of administration of the temple: the accounts, the money, the this, the that, you know, plaster is falling off the wall, the gṛhasthas take care of it. But what the brahmacārīs do, their schedule, getting up in the morning, this that, who does what preaching and all that, who is involved in what department, who is dressing the Deities, how the Deities are being dressed and all that - that's the temple president, the brahmacārīs, he takes care of that. Gṛhastha has nothing to do with it. You know, if they have some great idea, they can mention it, but it is still the temple president's call whether he wants to do it or not.

Same way the other way: where the money is going - that is not the president's call, that is their call. That's just how that temple is set up. And it works, and they have a head to that whole thing who manages nothing. All he does is inspire devotees, and the whole thing works. 15,000 devotees - that's one temple. You take all, the whole thing, you take the whole zone, you are going to have a huge amount, tens of thousands of people, and he doesn't manage anything. That's the power, that is the purpose of the GBC, that is the power of the GBC. Someone functioning as a real GBC, they have a zone just in one area, means, within a few hundred kilometers that has maybe 50,000 people in it. Maybe 40-50, I don't know the latest statistics. Because they act as a real GBC, and those who think they got to micromanage, you know, your nose hairs and all that, then they have more Deities in their zone than they have devotees.

So that's the whole point, is when you inspire then Kṛṣṇa is there, naturally Lakṣmī and everything is there. So people are fighting over money because they can't generate it, because Kṛṣṇa is not involved. You can say Kṛṣṇa is involved, but how is Kṛṣṇa involved? How is it about Kṛṣṇa? It's just like this: if from this place people gave donations to a preacher and that money went somewhere else and was used nicely in Kṛṣṇa's service, then the persons who engaged it get the spiritual benefit, but the people who gave that money get equal spiritual benefit. Just like someone gives a donation for worshiping the Deity, and the pūjārī is there worshiping the Deity using that donation. The benefit, spiritual benefit that pūjārī gets for, let's say, offering that āratika or that offering, then the person who cooked it, the person who donated for it - all of them, they all get benefit. Just like the whole thing on, if someone... Meat eating. Six different people get the sin, right? You know this one? Yes? No?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. So it's the same way, the person who gave the donation... So that means, the people in your community are increasing their devotional piety and their commitment to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so, is that not a good thing? Have you not benefited? Is the only consideration of benefit is monetary? If it is, then the point is is, okay, so you come from a corporate kind-of angle. But you have to understand: corporate is underneath administrative, which is underneath brāhminical. So never think your corporate viewpoint is the supreme. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Like that. Is that the authority is his spiritual master, and at the same time, as an institution, the vaiṣṇavas, means, and next, the vaiṣṇavas who are following there in the paraṁparā, and then as an institution you follow what needs to be done. This one preaches in this area, that one preaches in that area. And so, you work it out, it's a cooperation. So that's why it is not just about the individual, but it is not just about the institution. The institution is made up of individuals, that's all it is. There is no impersonal element to it. You can make it, if you want to drop into the corporate, you can make it impersonal. Corporate means impersonal. The administrative, it can have a general group, it can be a little impersonal, but it's not actually, because it's still, because they are working with the men. Those that get more about just as a general thing, they are the ones that have problem. Like we said, the office guys can have a little bit more impersonal, while the guys that are in the field, they never... They see it as, 'I have 50 men, it's 50 individuals, and these 50 have to work together. If we don't want to die, these 50 have to work together.' While the guy in the office, you know, if all 50 died, he doesn't die, what's going to happen to him? Right? So, the whole point is is that at that point you have the personal, though it becomes, there is generic kind-of orders and like that. In the brāhminical then it's more individual, but it is still working on the level of all the... Individuals have to engage themselves in the process. So it's acintya-bhedābheda-tattva. This thing, 'No, it is all about the institution!' 'No, it's all about the individual!' they are both wrong. It's the acintya-bhedābheda-tattva, the two go together. 'Is that Kṛṣṇa or is it His energies, which is it? One or the other? Can you separate Them? They are one, but they are different. You can tell the difference, but at the same time you can tell the sameness. That's philosophy.

So the point is is, acintya-bhedābheda-tattva is how we hold everything together, literally. We have heard about Kṛṣṇa, we have heard about the jīva, we heard about the material energy, right, devotional service, all that, how does that hold together, what's the relationship? Acintya-bhedābheda-tattva. That's why our approach is a little more difficult to understand. Others, it doesn't have an inconceivably, simultaneously one and different. So that is the thing, you have to be able to see an institution, an individual, and see it functioning together at the same time. If you can only see institution or only see individual, it won't work as well. So those that you see, other institutions, it's more, you know, just it's more streamlined because they don't have to accommodate so much the individuality. Because what is in, let's say, we have a golf club, okay? And so, everybody in that club, what do they like to do?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Right! Okay! So now, to play golf and to be in that club, that means they have to have a certain amount of money and free time, right? So they can't be working two jobs down at the factory and play golf, right? Or they won't be so... And they have to like to be a little physically involved. But, at the same time, it is a slow sport, everybody takes their turn. It is not you go out there and just start whacking the ball, and that's all you do all day. So, you know, it takes some decorum, it takes some social... How you say? Discipline. So you find this a certain group of people are in that club. So now you make your charter and you do all the things, it's pretty straightforward. Where are our people coming from? Because we are not preaching to the conditioned nature. We are preaching to the soul. We may specialize that we know how to preach to those souls in this particular condition of nature. But our job is not to leave them in that, but to bring them to pure devotional service. So that means, we have people from such a wide... The widest range. Our institution has people from the widest range of any institution in the universe. There is nothing else that has this wide range. Nothing, literally. Does that make sense? We have from those who... It's like, let's say, Madhudviṣa Mahārāja. He is just a guy trekking around the world. He happens to be in San Francisco because it's a happening place. And so, it's one of the places to visit. And in San Francisco, Golden Gate Park, that's the place where it all happens. He happens to just show up there with his backpack, the Ratha-yātrā is going on, just going by. He sees that, 'Wow, that looks interesting!' Goes down, throws his backpack on Subhadrā Devī's cart, walks along with the whole thing, takes part in the whole thing, they get there, at the end there is a program that goes on for a few hours, stays for that. When they clean up, he is still there, and when the devotees go back to the temple, he goes with them. He never left again.

So we have a few examples of devotees like that: as soon as they, the moment they come in contact, they are already a devotee. And then you have stories of other ones, where a friend wants to go to the Sunday feast, and the other guy doesn't really like to go because he doesn't like anything religious, he doesn't like, you know, bald head. He goes anyway. When he goes to the Sunday program, he argues like anything, he is a total atheist, arguing anything, this that, just like that. But, you know, he likes the food. Can't not like the food. And so then, his friend keeps going back. After nine weeks of nine Sunday feasts he shaves up and joins the temple. But he was a total demon. Someone else, they are so intellectual, this and that, 'And what about this and that?' And so, they are around the devotees for years before they make the commitment to fully surrender. Or somebody is a real mūdhā, he is just doing his thing, absorbed in the material world and that, and now and again he bumps in, and sometimes... Until finally he gets to one point where he decides, 'My life is, there is something wrong here, he goes to find out, and then he gets it.' So we have people from brāhmanas, right down to outcasts. You know, śūdras is on a good day, literally. Caṇḍālas and all that we got. And so then, like this, people from brāhminical, from academics, from all these different things, from government, from military, from the corporate world, from the corporate world but they are middle managers in the corporate world, so they are not vaiśyas, they are śūdras, but they're quite, they are vaiśya's śūdras, śūdras for vaiśyas. Then you have śūdras, how about a wide range of śūdras? You have the common office worker, you have the laborers, you have those in fine arts and those in performing arts. And then you have guys who are just downright lazy and don't do anything. And that whole range, they are all coming together. So unless you use... And why are they coming? Because of Lord Caitanya's preaching. Everybody else is preaching to a particular group, we are preaching beyond groups. There is no other religion and anything that has this wide range of people in it and the backgrounds.

And so, therefore, without acintya-bhedābheda-tattva you cannot hold it together. That's why you can't use any modern management system and think you are going to get it to work. You can't. They don't have that understanding. You can get a few tricks, but the point is is, as things change those tricks don't work, unless you know the principle. In other words, the guy that wrote the book might have understood the principles, but he only explained it through the details. Because if he just describes the principles and people go, 'This is just theory, it doesn't work,' but you describe only detail, they'll go, 'Wow, this is fabulous.' And everybody buys, and it becomes the best seller like this and that, and then you don't hear about it anymore. Then so many years later, then they come out with the second book, 'The eighth principle of successful people.' You know, 10 years later or 20 years later. Because they didn't... You can't use those seven without that eighth. Because in their mind, you have to say it works. So we are saying very clearly, if you don't understand sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana, you don't understand acintya-bhedābheda-tattva, you will not be able to make this work. I can guarantee that. You don't have to be a scholar on it, but you have to understand these fundamental principles that you have to have a field of action, you have to have those who are qualified and knowledgeable in that field and have the right attitude to take part in that, they have to know what is the goal and the goal has to be obtainable by those actions that that knowledge and field possesses, and if you don't do that for Vāsudeva, you have wasted your time: śrama eva hi kevalam. That's what we are saying. Does that make sense?

So, in other words, if you want to discuss the position of guru on the political platform, you can go on arguing with people for the next 50 years. But if you just deal with what is the actual standard on the spiritual platform, then, you know, a short discussion - it's done. Because what does it matter what background he is from? You have someone like, say, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja. He comes from the corporate world before being a devotee. He was well situated. He met Prabhupāda, immediately just took it up, and all that. And you see his nature, he is always doing pūjā, he is always doing... He has his own Deities, he travels, he does that. When he goes to a temple, he always does Maṅgala-āratika in that temple. Whenever there is a festival, he comes for the abhiṣeka. There is a Deity installation, he comes to take part. He eats very simple, cāpāṭis and ḍāl, literally, that's all he eats, and very small amount. It's very brāhminical. But at the same time, because of his corporate background and that knowledge, you see his temples are the some of the richest in the movement. He knows money, so he knows how it works. Right? So it doesn't matter what the background is. So you can see, there is the brāhminical side, there is that corporate side and all this and that, he also is... He doesn't manage. He just inspires his managers, and that's why he has such big things. He doesn't get involved like that, because why should he? It's not your business. Anybody who is successful in corporate doesn't micromanage everything, either. So this whole thing that everyone micromanages, where is it from? Śūdras don't do that, vaiśyas don't do that, the administration doesn't do that, brāhmanas don't do. Where does it come from? The 28th hell's pit in the Bhāgavatam, or something, or what? So it's just, you have to understand, is that these things don't matter, you use what's there. Somebody else has some other experience, they use that for Kṛṣṇa. So it doesn't matter, and that way each place has its own unique flavor and everything like that, because it has this unique combination. And Prabhupāda appreciated that. He expected that individuality. And if by bureaucracy we want to make everyone the same, we won't do it. And anyway, it was not appreciated, never been appreciated. Pink Floyd wrote a song about it, no? Yeah. So it just doesn't work.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. Good, good, thank you.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes. One of the first things to look at, that, like you are saying, that the professionals, those who are from a professional background will say, is that much of the time our approach can be very unprofessional and no institution would function like this, right? They fall apart. So, but we haven't fallen apart. Why not? Because it's Kṛṣṇa's institution. Therefore, understanding that point should actually give them faith in the spiritual program, because anywhere, any other institution that was trying to be organized the way this is organized, it wouldn't exist. But this still exists and goes on. So that means, Kṛṣṇa's hand is involved. Because the purpose is not a well organized machine, but well organized that people are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious and developing their relationship with Kṛṣṇa. And if you can have a nicely organized machine to do that, that makes it even better. It's just like, let's say, you have prasāda. I can stick it in your hand, I can put a cāpāṭi in your hand and put some sabjī on top, you can eat it. Or, I can put it on a paper plate, or I can put it on a plastic plate. Or I can put it on, you know, it just gets better, I put it on a gold plate. But the point is to be able to eat, and if it's a gold plate, very nice. So the whole point is is, the institution is there to see to the regular and organized development of individuals in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Means, exposing newer and newer people to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and those who have been exposed to, that they also are step by step going through their Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So this is the real thing. And then as much as you can engage your nature, then that's great. That's one thing.

You have the other thing, is is that coming from the corporate background you have management as a very major aspect, and so it is about... Because it is about profits, you have to do what will get profit. And so, individuals within that are only useful inasmuch as they give profit, like that. So, therefore, their management is very simple. A guy that is so important today, if tomorrow he is not, they just fire him. They made a contract with the guy that he is going to get this for the next 10 years, they decide to cut off the contract after three years, and they just screw him. Or a common thing, they do it, let's say he is supposed to retire at the end of this year. Three months before the end of the year they fire him, so they don't have to give him retirement money because that's more profit for the... So you do have that impersonal aspect. So you will see, is that the corporate, that professional corporate doesn't have the nature to be able to deal with individuals and their nature in a voluntary situation. Right? Someone working maybe with an NGO has to, it is voluntary, you have to inspire everybody, like that. But the corporate is that they don't work, you just get rid of them. So it's not so much a matter of training. The military, they all come in as idiots, and you train them, so that they become a soldier. Very few walk in as a soldier, you have to make him a soldier, right? I don't know what... Different places, you have that first six weeks, or whatever it is, you run them through hell and all that, and then they become men. Then you have something to work with. So they train at least, so you are part of a thing, but you are also an individual in that. Every individual does their thing, it all works as a team. While the other one, it works as much as it makes profits. So you will have those from a professional economy background, that they will have a good work ethic, they can be regular, they can be organized, they can be thoughtful about things, they can make plans, and so they have so many good qualifications. But, at the same time, is there might be the element that working on a personal platform may not be their strong suit. And so, therefore having to accommodate individuals and their uniqueness, they don't know how to deal with it. So that should be one thing that they should know, that if it's not going so smoothly, there is things for them to learn also, right? And, at the same time is, it's all part of service to Kṛṣṇa because it is about you doing your best for Kṛṣṇa, sacrificing body, mind and words for Kṛṣṇa - that is what pleases Kṛṣṇa, and that is what will get you back to Godhead, whether you are externally successful or not. Prahlāda Mahārāja, like we said before, so many obstacles. But at the same time is, he is seen as the greatest devotee. Later when he grows up he takes over his father's kingdom, and he is managing the whole demons down there, like that. Do we hear anything about the details of what he does every day or anything? Nothing. We only hear about what he is doing, trying to boil him in oil, or step on him with an elephant, or stuff like that, when it's bad. So in that it's how you are being Kṛṣṇa conscious. So they should then appreciate that: that whatever is the situation, they try to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. They shouldn't be frustrated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that the mechanics of the institution is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. No, mechanics are tools that we use. Means, it's like, if the knife is dull you sharpen it. How it got dull and all that, it's only useful inasmuch as don't do that again. If they are cutting straight on the counter, that will make the knife dull. You have to put the cutting board, then cut, and regularly sharpen, every day sharpen a little bit, once a week do it very nicely. No one has done that for years, so therefore then it's going to take, like you said, 15 years it takes to get things together.

And the next thing to consider is that the material world is the problem. People are here because they want to control and enjoy. If you are here in the material world and you didn't descend, you know, sent by Lord Caitanya, you are here because you want to control and enjoy. Even if you are in the mode of goodness, like the demigods, they still want to control. You see, Indra all the time get distracted by his desire to control and enjoy, even though he is situated in goodness as a demigod. So you are going to have that happen. So the problems that come up is because we are in the material world. In the spiritual world you see the same rivalry and this and that, is there any problem? Rādhārāṇī's group is trying to take Rādhārāṇī out to meet Kṛṣṇa and rival gopīs, they are also, they have the same plan. And it's just, whatever Kṛṣṇa's desire is, that's what works out. But in any case, we are there to take part. So, you know, why 15 years? If we can do 15 lifetimes of putting things together for Kṛṣṇa to please Him, then we are happy. It's all worth it. Like you see, Kuntīdevī, she is saying, 'All those years of trouble we were more Kṛṣṇa conscious.' Because when things go nicely, we may forget. So in this way then you can be very nicely Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can be... So nothing is ever a problem. And you have to know, it's just the way the material world is, it is designed for trouble. If we have any attachment, that's the place where we will feel it the most. We are attached to things going smoothly, it won't go smoothly. We are not attached to things going smoothly, we are just attached, we do our service, then [if] it doesn't go smoothly, it won't bother us, right? So, we become disturbed in those areas of attachment. But we are engaging those attachments in Kṛṣṇa's service, so they are getting... They become glorious, we are getting purified by that, but it doesn't mean that one person's attachments aren't your misery, or your attachments become their misery. And definitely our own attachments will be our own misery, that's guaranteed. Whether we get happiness or someone else has that.

A third, another, I think, another point to consider is, when we say 'time, place and circumstance,' then the Sanskrit deśa-kāla-pātra, pātra means the qualification of the individuals involved. We always take a 'circumstance' to mean the field. No, the time and place is the field. Place is the field. The time is what's appropriate at that particular moment in that field. The 'circumstance' are the people involved, what they can do. So we, a lot of times it is used, 'time, place and circumstance' meaning that, 'What can we do? The circumstance is such, we could do nothing.' No, what you are saying is, you as a part of the circumstance, you didn't have the qualifications to do anything. Or, for the qualification that you had, that wasn't the right time to do anything. Or it was the wrong place to do something. So that's the thing, you have to see all that. So, therefore, in time, place and circumstance, then the individuals involved, the GBC, your corporate professionals, yourself, all the new devotees - that's the situation. That is the circumstance - their individual qualifications. And then to be successful... Successful means being Kṛṣṇa conscious, pleasing Kṛṣṇa. So, therefore, you try to work with everybody in such a way that they will all be happy. You can't necessarily please everyone, but that's the whole point. Is like you said, you sell ice cream, it struck me. I wonder if anybody has thought about that, doing, you know, ice cream saṅkīrtana? It's like, go out, open an ice cream parlor, and it's all prasāda. And you make, find out what people like and all is offered to Kṛṣṇa and all that. So everyone comes in, and then everybody is taking prasāda, right? You know, they may like Indian or not, or this or not, but ice cream might be said, everybody likes. So I wonder, have anybody's thought about that: ice cream preaching?

So then this principle of... What you call it? Trying to do things in connection with Kṛṣṇa, that's the one thing that makes it, holds it all together. Like we said, you can reconcile. You CAN please everybody by pleasing Kṛṣṇa, and if the individual is not pleased, that is their problem. Kṛṣṇa is pleased, the vaiṣṇavas are pleased, this individual - what can you do? At the same time is, like you said in the example, of working with the senior vaiṣṇavas, the point is is, etiquette still stands. Even if they are saying something that may not be working or that, you still within the etiquette need to explain it in such a way that they can appreciate a point because you said it very nicely. In other words, if they are senior and you are junior, from the position of how a junior would speak to a senior you present it. Even though you are presenting that your point is correct and theirs is wrong. And so, like that, that's that biggest point.

Because the thing is is, just because someone says, 'Do this,' doesn't mean that there is not a discussion. This whole new kind-of concept that, no, you sit in the meeting, you worked it all out you, just tell people what to do and then everything will be fabulous -  this is a horse's egg. Right? It doesn't exist. The horses have, lay eggs? You get horses from an egg, right? The horse lays an egg and then they sit on it, and if they don't want to sit on it, they get a chicken to sit on it for them, they just have to give them extra grain, right? Because they get the grain, and they get the straw, so then they have to eat straw while the chicken gets the grain and it will sit on the egg for them, right? That's how it works? No. There is no horse's egg. But they are thinking that there is a horse's egg. So this whole thing is that 'I say jump and you say how high,' that is nonsense. That doesn't work. The point is is, it's a cooperation. This thing is, 'No, we are the Ultimate Managerial Authority, you have to do what we say,' then you have to say what Prabhupāda said that everybody is supposed to do. Otherwise, if you are getting into areas that are not yours, of course, you say it, it's not going to work. And so, either you go along and try, and then it doesn't work, then they will come back and you explain, 'We tried all the things you said,' they will say, 'What about this, what about that?' You do everything like that, they take you years to get it exactly the way they see, then finally they will see it doesn't work, maybe. Or you can just explain to them, 'But this is the consideration,' and then you say, 'It should be done like this,' and then have a discussion. And if they accept it, great, if they don't, then go with what they say. Because the point is is, you have to remember, you are serving Kṛṣṇa, you are doing your best to serve Kṛṣṇa. If something goes wrong, the bad result goes to them. You use your brain, if something actually doesn't work, you can also just do something that is close that will work and say, 'Oh, we tried that, it didn't work, we did this and then it worked,' and then maybe the next time they will accept. You just have to be clever and use your intelligence. But the point is, you still have that hierarchy. But that is why then the whole system is there, everybody knows their position in the hierarchy and what is their duties within the hierarchy and how that hierarchy actually works. Is that... Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, but the point is is, that battle should be that it it is better for becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious and others becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. If it is just a matter of fighting who is in charge and who get... That's not worth, that is not a worthwhile fight. The point is, all these different considerations within the program, it has its value on how much it is pleasing Kṛṣṇa. And so, Prabhupāda has mentioned that cooperating together is very important. So if you are cooperating then Kṛṣṇa sees that. You are cooperating and others aren't cooperating - they will have the problem, you won't have. Because the ultimate perfection is: you remember Kṛṣṇa at the time of death. You know, like Prabhupāda told... What was that professor, the professor in Moscow? When he went there, there was that professor, he spoke to him?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, Kotowski. So then, Prabhupāda was saying what he was saying, the Vedic version, the Gītā. And Professor Kotovski has his own idea. And at the end of the conversation Prabhupāda says, 'You know, then we will see who is right at the time of death, at the time of death we will see who is correct.' So that means, at the time of death.... And professor... What not? Kotowski?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: I almost said Tchaikovsky, and that's a different guy, right? [Laughter] Yeah, Kotowski. So then he will, he will remember, when he sees Yamadūtas, he will remember, 'Maybe that Svāmī knew something.' So like that, is that ultimately you go back to Godhead, and all these things... Because we see, so many times different things happening and all that, and it's not ideal. But it is the material world. Material world means not ideal. Yudhiṣṭhira is supposed to be the emperor, but somehow another Duryodhana takes over. And then to become emperor again, to establish, because Kṛṣṇa wants him to be, and He wants to remove all the demonic forces, 640 million people die. You know, and many of them are people that we want around: Bhīṣma and Droṇa and others, Dhṛṣṭadyumna, like this. But with Kṛṣṇa's plan they are all gone. Because that's basically the end of the pastimes, so everybody's is going to go anyway because they all go on to the next universe, where the pastimes are continuing. So there is going to be a curtain call at some point. So like that, then one doesn't have to be disturbed. It is annoying, especially if you do know how to manage, then it is annoying. But within the context you do your best and manage the best you can within that context. Don't make the thing, 'Oh, it's either this way or nothing!' Like that, there is no use to that. The point is is, you do service to Kṛṣṇa and you do your best.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, so...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: I didn't catch, what was the very beginning, what was the point you saw? I didn't...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: I am not sure about that, 'Direction of Management.' I haven't seen. I am working off of the seven... Means, in this paper we are working off of the seven purposes of ISKCON and quotes from Prabhupāda where he is talking about the positions of devotees and what they are doing. But if... Maybe you can, you could send that reference to the paper, where it is, so we can see...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: That people can say... You always have to remember, we have the... You have eating, sleeping, mating and... Prabhupāda, defending, many times he says that it is fearing. So we have to appreciate that when one creates an atmosphere of fear, or a conspiracy theory kind-of that, it cultivates that fearing kind-of element. So it can give a particular taste. But it is not necessarily that people are so well organized... You know, like Prabhupāda mentioned that you talk about that there is this particular little group of people, they are controlling the whole planet, and make it... But no one is that powerful. Where is the piety that they can do that? To be able to control the world... Yudhiṣṭhira could control the whole planet. Who is that pious? Right? So they simply in their area take advantage of what the modes of nature do. The modes of nature bring around, let's say, the Coronavirus, and so clever guys then take advantage of that and make money off it. They do things in pharmaceuticals, or this or that, or so many things, they just take advantage. They see an opportunity, they do it, but they didn't plan it.

So we have to always see, is that it is not necessarily a consolidated plan that is there, that all these things are kept. Maybe somebody came across it, they don't see the importance, 'Oh, no, that doesn't apply now, Prabhupāda wrote that so long ago, it doesn't apply now...' You know, like that. So the whole thing is is, those kind-of things come up, and then that way it doesn't get used. But it's like Varṇāśrama. Unless you trained in it and have seen it working, where you have a background that you have experience, that you can pair it to, then you can see its validity. And it also requires some mode of goodness - then it becomes, then you see it is very valuable program. But if you don't, it doesn't mean anything to you. So there is all these quotes by Prabhupāda, but who follows it? Individuals may take it of value and all that, but in general it is not used because it is not understood. So it is not like it is a conspiracy to keep it out, it's just they don't understand it. So it may be the same with this document: either people haven't seen it or heard it, or they don't understand it. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, very good. Hare Kṛṣṇa! Very nice!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: His computer didn't get hit when the meteor landed... Wow, cool, strong computer!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, because many times is that that's the... Just by our, just experience, when someone says, okay, like, let's say, Prabhupāda wrote a management document, we think it gets down to all little detail. But actually management starts from the top. You have to have, we are trying to please Kṛṣṇa, and then there is ways that Kṛṣṇa likes to be pleased, and then the ācāryas have given us avenues in which we can apply that. It comes down like that, it is a descending process. And so, therefore, Prabhupāda, like you said, by giving certain principles and all that, then you know any details... As long as your details are in line with that, it works. It's just like, let's say, if it is from fruits, vegetables, dairy, grains and sugar, it is within that, and you cook to please Kṛṣṇa by it and don't eat while you are cooking, like that, [don't] taste it, offer it to Kṛṣṇa first - and then you can cook any preparation, you can do unlimited things with that. So that's the principle. And if you do that - then you move - it's Kṛṣṇa conscious. Now within that, then we also see from Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's song, that Lord Caitanya is there, and Kṛṣṇa is eating śuktā-śākādi bhāji nalitā kuṣmānda, then you can understand that there is some certain things that He likes and all that. But the point is, He likes these five categories of food ingredients, by which you make food. So like one time a devotee was complaining about sugar, and Prabhupāda said, 'Krishna likes sugar, it's one of the five foods.' So if you don't like it, don't eat it! But Kṛṣṇa likes it, so you offer it to Him. Because they were trying to say, 'Oh, sugar is bad, we shouldn't offer it.' No, He likes it, we offer it. Same thing like now, with the milk. Kṛṣṇa likes it, we offer it, like that. You don't want to drink it, don't drink it! But the point is, Kṛṣṇa likes it. So the principles are the most important. Like Ekādaśī, Lord Caitanya gave no grains and no beans, right? And so then, you add that within the things, so that means, fruits, vegetables, dairy and sugar are left. That means, one of the five you cut out - that's Ekādaśī, right? And so then, like that it works as a principle. And sometimes devotees ask certain things or it is mentioned, he will give us more of a detail. But that detail, you will see also is more of a general principle that everybody can follow. It's a detail that everybody can follow. So these kind-of things, and then the specific for the particular situation you are in, then you try to take that and if it matches in line with this then it's good. And if it doesn't, it's not. You can't say, 'Oh, it is different, we can't do those things,' that's foolish. So to take those principles as details and say we can't follow them... They are principles and you apply the details you are in to that and then you can get somewhere. So it means, you have to be thoughtful.

That's the point: leadership has to be thoughtful. This whole thing is just, they are just yes-men,what's the point? And this is the very fun point: is if we are talking about a more liberal thing, liberal is, supposedly, against yes-men, but we see, liberal always creates yes-men. Unless you are a yes-man you get canceled. Cancel culture is those who are not yes-men. So it is very, very interesting how it is presented at left, but they are actually very, very far right. So it's a mess, on the material platform it is always a mess. That's why we don't care about it. We don't get involved in all the modern politics. We just get involved in what is useful in Kṛṣṇa consciousness as it was given to us by Prabhupāda and the ācāryas, then it works good. So, I'd be... We will have to... We will look up this letter that you talked... There is also, now who you... Do you know who the letter was to?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: All temples? There was also a very nice one, I think it was to Karandhara, where Prabhupāda talks about, the leadership means that you yourself are following and then you are also engaging everyone else according to their nature. So how they fit into their nature, or what things they can do, so you have to understand Varṇāśrama, you know, like that. So there is many things. Or, Prabhupāda said, leadership means, you are inspired in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are going to inspire others in Kṛṣṇa consciousness - that is leadership. So if you are inspired, but no one else is getting inspired, then you are an individual, maybe not a leader. You can be a manager and you don't inspire others - that is why leaders are above managers. And that is always a problem: bureaucrats are not necessarily inspired nor inspire others, so they are really afraid of people who can inspire others, therefore the whole thing on how to control those who have that influence. So that is why all these different systems, they are all weak, unless you see it... In the Vedic system you have bureaucracy, it is in there, you have the local managers, you have all these different things. But the king's business is to keep them in line that they don't create trouble. It's not... Leadership is not the bureaucracy, the bureaucracy is below.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes? Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, so nine principles, okay.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: You have it? There is that, but he is also... That he is talking about, from Tokyo 1972, where it is something for the temple presidents. So it sounds like the one you found, that is for the GBC, and this one in 1972 maybe for presidents. So check that out, Tokyo 1972, so we will be seeing... It was all...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: There was also that one in connection with Karandhara.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, yes, yes. So that is what we are saying, is the strategy and the operational Prabhupāda already gave. Then it is just a matter of using your intelligence and applying it into the situations that one is in. But the principles won't change. The strategy and operational, they don't change. You know, you can go from having a temple and a restaurant to only having a temple or only having a restaurant. But the point is is, still the concepts of temples, restaurants, farms, communities - these are all given by Prabhupāda and the ācāryas. And then we find within that, then we use our intelligence to see that the time, place and circumstance is working to do those things. So that is the point: is we don't have to work it out, we simply have to understand what is already there. Is that...? Yes? Good? Yes? No? Very good?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Hare Kṛṣṇa!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, but then if you stop following, now what is his position? What would his position look like if he stopped following?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, I mean, what would he do? Where would he situate, what service would he do? Do you understand?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So just like, let's say, we take the anarchists. They say, 'It's all wrong, the system is wrong, we have to destroy the system! The corporate system is bad, we have to get rid of it all!' But if you get rid of all that, then how will anything function? What will be left? What will it look like? The anarchist perfection, what does it look like? You know, there is no humans left, all there is is the animals and nature. So you got the sunshine and the field, and the butterflies, and the dandelions, and that's it.

So that is the difficulty, is that what does it look like? Because the point is is, Dhṛtarāṣṭra made a decision, what about Bhīṣma? Droṇa? Vidura? Everybody is trying to convince him because he is in the position. So that is why I was saying before to Pātri, is you try to convince them of a better method or a better plan, and if they are convinced, then great. But if they are not, then you do the best you can within the situation that they are expecting because as far as Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja and his brothers' and Draupadī's Kṛṣṇa consciousness and personal development, did it not improve over those years? Means, for them personally it was fabulous. So, they are sitting there with hundreds of brāhmanas, and these aren't just any old brāhmanas, these are brāhmanas that are austere enough to live out in the forest with them and take care of themselves, right? Especially when they went like up to Gandhamādana and things like that, it has to be people like that. And regularly people... Nārada Muni, this one, that one, are all coming and visiting, like that. So these, all the spiritual things... And all they are discussing is śāstra. So his knowledge of śāstra is deepening so much. So his qualification as an emperor is getting better and better. And then Arjuna, then he goes and he collects all the weapons, basically, you can say, of the universe. There is not a weapon that he doesn't have, right? And not only that, you have got that, and by the arrangement of his father he got that curse, so that he could be incognito, otherwise how do you hide Arjuna? Right? How do you hide Arjuna, the most qualified, best looking guy on the planet, how do you hide that? So it all works out, it is Kṛṣṇa's plan, that is why there is an ultimate thing. We try to do the best and all that, we go through. And so, it is not a matter of ego, it's a matter of you have... The most importance is the spiritual development and all that, and then we are working in an organization, we have that hierarchy, we do the best we can within that. Because like Pātri said, if no one comes there for years, how often are they involved? So most of the time you could try to do things that you will see will work nice, you just have to make sure that those things that they are expecting to see when they do get involved are there. So if you do have more freedoms... But it's just like what you said, if someone knows management, it is a real annoyance. Like Pātri was saying and like those corporate devotees that work with them, they are saying. But the point is is that you are doing your best. It is not ideal, but you try to adjust within that. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Like that. So the point was, is he is the authority. Because if the authority breaks down... As it is, it is already a problem that the authority has broken down much more than it should be, and that was not broken down by us, that is already broken down by that 50 men committee. So already as it is you relativize everything. So if it is all, if the Guru is relative, GBC, Temple president, everybody else is relative, who cares for them? Everybody knew Prabhupāda, how many knew the GBC? They all knew the sannyāsīs, they knew Prabhupāda, they knew major temple presidents, you might have not even known who your GBC was. And then if you remove the Guru in that, who cares about GBC? It is just who, local authority that you have to work with, you like them you do, you don't like them you get grumpy, make comments all day, make everyone's life miserable, like that. And so then that is what you are left with. So the point is that there is no advantage. You do the best you can within what is there.

If something is actually wrong... Because is there something wrong in Yudhiṣṭhira going out into the forest and doing austerities? No. So it is not that he is asking him to do something immoral. Like you see, is like when you have the point where someone says... Especially like Arjuna, they asked him, 'Would you please do me a favor?' And he says, 'Yes, I'll do anything, as long as it is not against the religious principles' of him as a kṣatriya and it won't be detrimental for him or in any way dangerous for him as an individual. You know, you can't say, 'Can you drink this bucket of poison here?' They can't. Like that, so the point is is, if it is not against these things... Then that you don't do. But if it is just something that you know option A is better than option B, but they have chosen B, then you go with B and you try to do the best you can within it to make it as close to A as possible to still keep it as B. It may be slower, it may not have that, and then when things fall apart, then you see, they will either... If that then they will see the problem, then adjust, or if not then they will blame you because you didn't do it the way they said, even though the way they said can't be done. And so then you just have to see if that situation works, otherwise then it's, you know, you find some other service or some other thing to get into. Because the point is to keep engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service - that's the point. If you have that then you can go back to Godhead.

And we always have to remember, ultimately Kṛṣṇa is in control. Because like you said, your false ego gets disturbed by this, so it may be correct, you may.... Means, on the platform of justice you may be right, but we have to remember, just the principle of justice on its own is simply prāṇa-maya. So now, prāṇa-maya to mano-maya, to vijñāna-maya, to ānanda-maya, so Kṛṣṇa is looking at how to get you to ānanda-maya.  So we might have to mess with your prāṇa-mayarighteousness, until you kind-of surrender, and then after that you see, it goes nicely. So we also have that aspect in the mix, is that we may be right, but then how are we right? What is our attitude? Our attitude may be wrong. What we are saying may be completely right, but the attitude is wrong, and so for Kṛṣṇa then that is the Pradyumna aspect, is the attitude. And that then makes the qualification and how you can use it properly, and so then sometimes we will have, we will run into trouble when we are doing everything right, but practically on the spiritual platform we are wrong. And since it is a spiritual movement, it is always going to go and favor that. Like I said before, when we were discussing with Pātri, is that if this organization was in any other institution in the world, they would have already fallen apart long, long time ago. They wouldn't even gotten out of the gate, right? But here it is still going on, and in many areas flourishing. Why? Because if someone follows, it works, and if someone doesn't, it gets slowed down. It is going to happen. Lord Caitanya said, every town and village, it will happen. It is just a matter of, do we take part or not? So we do the best we can and where we can, and then it will keep going.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: I mean, what's going to... Means, what we discussed and what's coming up. Means, you are going to have it that now we are getting before what we just described in general what would be discussed. Now gets into the kind-of like outline of it, a little bit more detail, more specific. So you are going to have the strategy, which is giving the ultimate goal, you are going to have the features of the strategy, which is showing how we can attain this goal. Means, generally speaking, if we are... Means, all the books that the ācāryas write, they are written for someone who doesn't have strong faith. They are talking about the position of having strong faith and getting to that, but they don't necessarily talk so much about that strong faith. Means, you see that being discussed, about the different devotees and their relationship with the Lord and the expression of that and all that, so that kind of thing. But the practicals, means they have already attained that position, that starting position, where it is already dynamic in interacting with the Lord. So that means, all the activities that are there, descriptions are given, so that we can come to that platform. In other words, having not firm faith, but having soft faith, like that, then what is the process we get there? It's from from approaching, associating with vaiṣṇavas, approaching the spiritual master, learning about sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana, and then being able to use that in our life. Then the third part of the strategy is then the framework of that, how Prabhupāda gave, Lord Caitanya, He gave this jīva-dayā, nāma-ruci and vaiṣṇava-seva, how then the institution, our lives and our institution is based on that with the seven purposes, and then in this way how then it manifests as an institution and how we as an individual within that can take part. Right? And then what will be the qualifications of those who function at that level as their service, that the strategic level is their business to see that others understand that and are functioning in that. Then you have something defining the operational and how the operational, the principles of that and how you see what you are doing in the context of the strategy and how everybody else is in line with that. And then tactical and technical are simply that they are in line with the operational and the individuals are progressing in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So that's will be the details that are there. So that's what would be this... That is within then, we will start with that tomorrow. Because today, in answering the questions of today, of yesterday... Because yesterday was just kind-of an overview of this outline, which will then be explained in the analysis. So that overview, by answering the questions today we basically explained the outline, but not necessarily in a... How you say? One point after another. But just wherever the question applied. So we were discussing from there. So when we discuss this tomorrow, it will be quite... Devotees should be quite comfortable with it. It should be now they will see it in an organized fashion, while today it was aimed at certain questions, so it won't be, you won't see a new concept, but now we will just get in to see how the details are made and how those things work. Is that all right?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay.

Om Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare 

Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare

Jaya! Śrīla Prabhupāda kī jaya! Samavetā bhakta vṛnda kī jaya! Jaya Nitāi-Gaura premānande Hari Hari bol!