MAN WOMAN INTERACTION LECTURE #9 Eger, Hungary, 4th Aug 2007 Part 1

Prabhu: So sometimes arguments become a fight, and does it mean that a fight, any tense argument where there is shouting, speaking going on...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Suspicious... [Laughter] Tape recorders?

Prabhu: ... and what can be done, who is responsible [indistinct 01:27] to control it or is it something that [indistinct 01:33] has to take place?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Hmm. Everybody heard? So if there is any man here that are very comfortable with their concept on how to deal with women and don't want that adjusted, please get up, stand up and walk out now. Because any conversations from now on are at the risk of your own masculine false ego.

No one going? Okay.

In a fight then it's the responsibility of the man to take the humble position and stop the fight.

Now is there anyone who wants to get up and leave? [Laughter]

This is shastra, it's not opinion. Because... What you call it? Yeah, there is many angles of this. Means, yeah, Shakuntala mentions that a man, even if he is angry, should in no way displease his women. That doesn't mean he can't tell them what he thinks or what he likes, or what he wants. But it has to be in a way that is appreciated by the women. Does that make sense? So now what it means is that if the man is supposed to be more intelligent, this is where you get to prove it, by using your intelligence how to say what you wanna say with the right words and the right tone of voice. So as soon as an unpleasant, or an environment of disturbance comes up, then the man has to word by word choose what he says and be monitoring the tone of voice and the response of the woman. And it means, be humble. Does that make sense? And humble means, as far as it needs to go. Does that make sense? Any fight will stop. If someone is sincerely humble, the woman can't remain angry and then once they are pacified, don't.... Just leave the argument. Don't try to get in your point again. And if you do, that second round will be even harder to work out. Does that make sense? That's the technique. So therefore nothing should turn into yelling, screaming and all that. That's the method.

Why would an argument come up? Woman will become disturbed or angry if there is any element of what she can see of is the situation or relationship and that in any way has compromised that therefore it generates insecurity. So for a man right and wrong means by technique or endeavor for getting a good material result, meaning as far as tangibly observable phenomena. Then they become frustrated and angry. Does that make sense? Woman gets angry if there is anything that disturbs the mood or facility that will then generate insecurity. Different. Therefore what you've said may be correct, but the words used and the tone of voice is not consistent with the relationship. So this concept of "I was right" doesn't have any value or meaning. "Right" means the relationship. If you wanna be "right" then go down to the court. Or go down to the job, down to the mechanic shop, and then you can argue with the guys about the piston and the camshaft and all these things. Yeah, gizmos and gadgets of the car engine. You wanna have an argument on right and wrong, have it with the boys. They appreciate it, women don't. Therefore, you wanna say something, it has to be consistent with the relationship. Does this make sense? Right? Okay, so that's another point.

Let's take another point. One might consider this that the man has to be humble before the woman that how is that manly? Because if you told this to your friends, they would go, "Oh you can't [indistinct 10:06] this that, you have to be the man, you know, you have to prove your testosterone." Right? But the point is is, then we have to look back, what is actually masculine? Krishna, He responds to His devotees how they approach Him. That's masculine. You know what I am saying? So therefore if the woman is upset, your respond to that upsetment is how to have the relationship work. Does that make sense? That's masculine. When woman gets angry, you get angry, that's two women fighting. That's why two women have problems when they get upset with each other, because they are not going to become humble. Do you understand? Masculinity means... It's like this. Masculine means independent. Feminine means dependent. So the independent male makes the independent decision to work with the woman. That's your masculinity. The woman, being dependent, has to work with the man, is dependent upon the man. Therefore, since they are dependent and the junior, therefore the senior has to take that step. Does that make sense? Leader means, they lead, they do it first. Does that make sense? That's what makes a leader. So now, if we apply that principle, if there is a fight between the husband and wife, if the husband wants the wife to take the humble position, going by this point of him being senior, who is supposed to manifest the humble position first? Does that make sense? That's the way it works. Do you understand the principle? This is just the science of it, you can believe it or not, but this is the way it works. You wanna apply it, you will get the result, guaranteed. You don't apply it, you'll never get the result, guaranteed. This is not opinion, this is shastra. Okay?

Prabhu: Why is it so difficult to apply?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Why is it so difficult to apply? Because the soul is feminine and it's trying to be masculine. So your natural response is actually always gonna be feminine, but it's just tough feminine. I think generally, at least in English, tough feminine is kind-of compared to a feminine dog. Not sure if every language has its particular colorful term for this position...

So, in other words, man's toughness sounds great to the men when they are just alone without their wives. But there has never been a woman in history on any planet, in any continent, in any culture that's ever appreciated it. Right? What's happening here is, if you wanna be male, you have to learn what the role is. Feminine we play well, because the soul is. The masculine, you have to learn the part. Because Krishna is masculine, the living entities are never masculine, but you just can learn to play the role, because in the pastimes then some are masculine. Does that make sense? Means, if the woman is trained, it makes it better, but if not, it will work if the man knows what he is doing. Does that make sense?

So that's why it's hard, because we are going on in the principle "just what spontaneously comes." But masculinity has to be learned. The boy grows up with women. So at what point has he ever learned what's a man? So unless he has gone to the Gurukula and been trained by men, or has gone out camping or fishing, or hunting, or something with the men, what's gonna turn him into a man? So that boy grows up to be "a man", the only way it's identifiable is by the particular effects of the particular appropriate hormones. But otherwise then he may not think like one. Does that make sense? So that's why it's hard. So one just has to learn the role. The women are waiting. Means, this is, what I say this may be new or a shock to the men, but the women are all thinking, "Finally someone saying it." [Laughter] It's not new or a shock to them. It may be a shock someone saying it, but... Does that make sense? Like that.

Mataji: But while we are in the learning process in the relationship, it will not always be successful, so how can the ladies help the men to learn this behavior?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Satisfaction. Means, the men can endeavor. Means, the boy makes the relationship work by sense control and sensitivity. And that generates in the women chastity and satisfaction. That's the principle. So the satisfaction would help a lot. Also the woman can say whatever she wants but try to say it nicely. In other words, why provoke the male ego? Woman can say whatever she wants, however heavy she wants, if she says it pleasantly. You know what I am saying? In other words, if a woman talks to another woman frankly, it's just straight. It's not rough. Use the same technique, because when it gets too sharp, it just automatically disturbs the male ego, and even though they should be able to deal with that, you are still depending a lot on their particular personal development. Means, if you have a nasty dog, and it's asleep, why would you wake it up? You know. So that's the point is that... [Laughter] If you poke the male ego, it will get ugly. It shouldn't, but then knowing that, why poke it? So therefore the rule is is that the woman should always speak pleasantly. Speak pleasantly doesn't mean what you say is pleasant, it means the tone of voice and the words are. Does that make sense? Then it will be easier for the man to deal with that situation using their intelligence. Otherwise, if you poke the ego, it tends to kind-of like cover the intelligence and then you end up with this thing that he yells and screams and uses all kinds of colorful language that women don't like to hear. Slammed doors, walking out of the house, and we are talking about a good day. [Laughter] So therefore don't poke it, then it will be easier for them to deal with what I've just said.

Means, like now they are peaceful, they are contemplative, so they are thinking about it. And they are still thinking, "How is it possible?" So let alone put on top of that the false ego and anger of being insulted. In other words, it's yours, so therefore by the law of possession one thinks, "It should act the way I want it to." But that possession is voluntary. Does that make sense? So that's why even though the tendency will be to, it's yours, so you deal how you like and it should respond how you expect, it is in one sense an independent living entity. Of course, there is a satisfaction of knowing you can deal with it roughly and poke it how you like and it still responds properly, so then that very much proves your right of possession, therefore establishing one's security very strongly. No?

So does that answer your question why there are fights? If you were paying attention, you would have figured it out. Fights are simply to establish security. Means, it will be there, there is no such thing as no fights. Radha-Krishna fight, Sita-Rama fight, Yudhisthira and Draupadi fight. You know what I am saying? Yeah? So fighting will be there, but that fighting is there because...

Okay, you have a scenario, everything is going nice, why does the fight sometimes come? Everything is going perfectly, it's great, hasn't been better. That's the moment for the fight. Right? And then you're wondering, why? It's like this. Because of the nature of security, that moment of happiness is so nice, so naturally the man just wants it to go on, so so does the woman. But the man is independent, therefore his existence doesn't even come into question. Man exists, he never doubts that, but the women do, because their existence depends on you. So now this situation is so nice, they wanna know if it's gonna keep going on. Therefore then they test it. And then if in that first word you respond with humility, it's over and then it keeps going. But if you get angry, then it could be three days before things are normal again. So in a moment it can go off, and in a moment you can bring it back, but you have to know the science.

Another element of this. If we've all been to school, we've all seen in our different, whatever, the science classes, some machine that shows the flow of energy. Right? What does the energy look like, if you look at it on the screen, what does it look like? Just goes straight, right? No, it goes like this. How much it goes this way, it goes that way. Got it? Happiness-unhappiness, happiness-unhappiness, that's how energy works. If you thought you are gonna get something that was like this, that's called a man. Also, you notice, if the screen goes like this, there is no energy, generally means it's dead. So it goes like this. Does that make sense? So how much it goes that much happiness, that much it's gonna go unhappiness. That's the package deal. Okay? Now, if you deal properly, your experience will be the happiness down to the middle, then happiness down to the middle, happiness down to the middle. You won't get the other side. Means, the woman will go to the other side, but for them the happiness and unhappiness is the same intensity. So it's a full experience. Do you understand? So for them it doesn't really make that much difference. It's just different flavors of the same intensity of relationship. Does that make sense? Another element is that when it goes up, then if you wanna push it more up, then it has to go back, this is... Anybody who has ever dealt with the stock market, understands the principle. By the volume and by the... Yeah, volume creates all these things.

Translator: Volume means?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Volume means the amount of trading going on. So it's just like this. If I wanna throw something very far... If I keep my hand just where it is and throw it, how far is it gonna get? So if I want it to go far, I have to take my hand back. As far back as it goes, that's how far forward I can throw. Does that make sense? So how much it can go down is how much it can go up. So if you don't like the down, don't bother with the up.

So the whole point is is, therefore when it gets to that peak, then the woman will be trying to push it to go beyond that point. By the man's calculation is you go in a straight line, but in the woman's calculation it goes in that zig-zag pattern. They are energy, they work like that. Don't ask the question, 'How to get them not to do that?" That's like saying, "How to get the birds not to fly," or, "How to get dogs not to bark, or fish not to swim or wind not to blow, or fire not to be hot, or sugar not to be sweet?Or..." Don't ask these stupid questions. Understand, man is man, woman is woman. Learn it, live with it. Stop trying to turn women into men and stop trying to deal with women like men. You wanna deal with men, deal with men. So the Vedic culture has men doing so many things together and not with the women, then you can get that experience. But when you deal with women, women are women, have to be dealt with like women. Does that make sense?

I just kind-of think if there is something else on it... Ah, okay, another thing on generating insecurity. So this is Rupa Goswami now. Attraction, when it deepens, it turns into attachment. Okay? So now, for attraction to turn into attachment, means, you have to cross reason. Cross, do you understand? Means, you go to the other side. Okay. Crossing reason, why would it be crossing reason? Means, attraction is in sambandha, so that means intelligence is being used. Need or attachment is in prayojana, so that means, it had to have crossed abhideya. Abideya is cit potency, which means, knowledge. Does that make sense? So that's attachment means, attraction that does not have the intelligence working. Does that make sense? Okay. So attachment also signifies need. If someone is needed, then they will always... Because once need is there, then activity happens. Right? When we said the mind thinking-feeling-willing, so feeling is need, then there is willing, then there is action, there is abhideya. Does that make sense? So that means, in the woman' s mind, or anybody's mind, in the woman's mind is that if you are attached, then you are going to interact, because you need them. Is that understood? That's why the woman is always trying to find out if you need them, because they are dependent. So the relationship is going to remain if you need them. If you don't need them, then where is the relationship? That's why they are always, constantly trying to find out if you need them, if you appreciate them, if you like what they'e done. So therefore when they ask these things, respond, don't say, "Oh, I already said." It's not that in the beginning of the marriage you can say, "Yes, from today until as long as we are together until death will us part, whatever you cook is great, and so I'm never gonna say it again. You cook great, you dress nice, you look beautiful, I need you, I love you, so I said it, so that's it, and don't ask me ever again!" So those questions are going to be constantly asked, and you better give good answers. [Laughter] Better make it sincere.

So now, attachment, when it deepens, it turns into consideration. Should we run that by again? When attachment deepens, then there is consideration. Consideration means, you are considerate towards the other person. Should we say that again? When attachment deepens, then there is consideration. If there is no consideration, means, if you are inconsiderate, the woman then thinks there is no attachment, therefore there is no need, therefore there is no relationship, therefore they get angry and get mental. So any time you say a word or a mood, or an action that is inconsiderate, you start off this chain of reaction. That is where you are hundred percent wrong in every argument. Maybe you are technically correct according to the physical situation, but that's not where women judge right and wrong. They judge right and wrong based on relationship, because they only exist because of relationship. Do you understand? This is the underpinnings of how the energies work.

Krishna exists, whether He manifests the cosmic creation or not. But the energy only exists if it's been manifest, and it only is manifest if it's connected. The wire is full of electricity, I mean, full. But the moment it's disconnected from the source, the whole line has no electricity. So for that connection, that's everything for energy, for the women. They don't feel connected, you have no relationship. And if they think they have no relationship, then things get wild. Therefore you have to become humble and seek with words and tone of voice to prove to them that the relationship is there, it's dynamic, it's solid, it's not going anywhere. Because that insecurity is caused by you. Either directly or indirectly, it may even be indirect. The lady is talking with another lady, and she makes a comment about how something for her is going on and she is feeling insecure. That may make your woman insecure. So then you have to prove that everything is fine. You can't say, "Well, I didn't start it, you talked to her, whY did you talk to her?" No. Right and wrong is not facts. Right and wrong is connection of relationship. Do you understand what you are dealing with? Right? Does that make sense?

Ha, and then, consideration turns into confidence. And only from confidence will that go into infatuation.

Translator: What does it mean infatuation?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Infatuation, like overwhelmingly attracted and attached and like bubbling and outgoing and just completely, you know... Like teenage girls go nuts over rock stars, just completely, you know...That will work? Yeah, okay. So if you men like that infatuation, you have to create confidence. But confidence means, you are always sensitive and considerate. You are gonna be late home, you call. They make something for you, you tell them it's nice. They dress up, you tell them they look nice, they smell nice, they are beautiful. You may say, that's maya, but you married maya! You know, if you are saying, "Oh, they are in maya," you are the idiot. So if you don't like dealing with maya, don't get married! Don't deal with women.

Ha, This brings up another point. [Laughter] Okay, so now one says, "But why all the trip? You know, before we got married, it wasn't like that. And any other woman I deal with, hey, I do fine. They smile, they interact, they do the whole thing. Why is my wife [indistinct 42:42]?" Because your wife, because of this, because of possession. Because other women don't possess you. So they are being very careful and all that, to catch. But once they've caught, it's yours! Does that make sense? So never think that a married woman is going to act like someone who you are not married to, or even like yourself before marriage. Does that make sense?

But at the same time, even we wanna take that scenario, "It was so nice before marriage." What was the point that was happening in the mood before marriage? Absolute, total sensitivity and consideration. Means, the man wouldn't do anything that would displease the woman, and he is thinking every moment in everything he does. That's why it worked. So if you are saying, "Well, she has changed after marriage," you have also changed. You are saying, she is not sensitive, that's because you are not sensitive. And if the man is leading, if he continues the sensitivity, she'll continue it. The man has to do it first, that's leadership. Leadership doesn't mean "I sit there on the couch and then I am just taken care of. I went to work, I worked hard, it was a tough day..." But that's between you and your job. What's that got to do with you and her? You know what I am saying? Because you've established the field in which you can perform activities, job is not over, you have to operate that field. You don't operate the field, where is the relationship? Does that make sense? If you have established, you've gone out, you've gotten a job, you've gotten the house, you've payed the rent, you've fixed the plumbing, you've fixed the electricity, you put in the new door, you got that new picture frame she wanted, everything, that's all sambandha. That just establishes a nice field in which you can now interact with the woman, that's not interaction, that was interaction between you and other elements of the field that got you the electricity done, or the bill payed, or, you know, something else. That's the field, that's the masculine element, that's what makes you the man. Does that make sense? Now that field has to be operated. Over elements within the field, then there'll be interaction. Does that make sense? Yes?

Prabhu: My personal experience, Maharaja, is that if you put Krishna in the center, Krishna in the middle, things go much...

HH BVPS Maharaja: If you put Krishna in the middle then things go...?

Prabhu: Easier. For example we bought Bhagavad-gita, Bhagavatam, we discuss about philosophy...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, but the point is is, you've bought Bhagavatam, so you've created a field and you discuss Bhagavatam, so it's going nicely, there is the interaction. What happens when you are not discussing Bhagavatam, you are getting up in the morning, or you are in the bathroom, or she didn't appreciate that you didn't take aim properly on the toilet seat, or you used all the toilet paper, or you made a mess on the floor in the bathroom, or...

Prabhu: Like practicing Krishna consciousness properly, then the good qualities naturally will develop, like the basic point is to practice Krishna consciousness properly...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay, so then at this point I get up and walk out because I don't need to say anything more. So you are just telling me that just with your Krishna consciousness it will work, yes. Maybe it's working for you.

Prabhu: It's working for me.

HH BVPS Maharaja: But everybody else in this room, grihasthas, what he said is working fine for you? Okay, so I am talking to everyone else, not you. You can keep it like that, but what is working? See, the point you are missing is the science that I am talking about is happening because of Krishna consciousness. You know what I am saying? So that's the point. If you are Krishna conscious, you are humble, you are tolerant, you respect others, you don't expect anything in return. So if you are following that by Krishna consciousness, you will do everything right anyway. But someone who is not, they need to know the science on which it functions. But the same science is going on, it's God's science, what I am talking is shastra. So please don't take the pure devotee trip and throw at my face. I already started this discussion a few days ago by saying, "This is Krishna consciousness, I am explaining the metaphysics that works behind it." Do you understand?

Otherwise, basically what you just said is, "Whatever you are talking about is unnecessary, all we need to do is just be Krishna conscious," which is true. But the point is is, it's not happening. Therefore we are explaining the science, God-given science, behind what happens if you are Krishna conscious, and therefore because of that everything worked fine. Right? And I wouldn't wanna distribute false ego, but this is what you are saying. If we asked your wife, maybe we would get the same thing, maybe wouldn't. So what's your point? What's your point?

Prabhu: Well, that's my point Maharaja. We were talking about developing the mode of goodness...

HH BVPS Maharaja: I am talking about that?

Prabhu: We were talking about that, because of the mode of goodness...

HH BVPS Maharaja: So what I am talking about is not? If you follow...

Prabhu: I am not... I am not...

HH BVPS Maharaja: If you follow the rules given in shastra, that's not...? That's called sacrifice, that's called developing the mode of goodness.

Prabhu: I am not criticizing you, Maharaja... I am just trying to make a point...

HH BVPS Maharaja: I know you are trying to make a point. But your point means that my point is [indistinct 51:02]

Prabhu: No, no, no, I don't want....

HH BVPS Maharaja: So then what's your point? When I already started the conversation a few days ago, I said, whatever we are gonna say now, is the metaphysics that connects what is going on in the application of the technique, what connects the technique to the philosophy? Right? I am giving an example from how God does it, so is that not Krishna consciousness?

Prabhu: [indistinct 51:38]

HH BVPS Maharaja: So, then therefore be careful. Because right now I feel like getting up, walking out and that's it. You know what I am saying? Because why should I waste people's time in discussing something so mundane that those who are devotees just think it's absolutely useless? If by practice of your Krishna consciousness, you are naturally doing these things, that's great, but whatever I am talking about, you are doing, if it works, because this is how God said it works. So I am annoyed that you are thinking that the Krishna consciousness in its application means the other aspect that I am talking about isn't going on. It's just like this. I am Krishna conscious when I cook, therefore it will be nice. But that doesn't mean that I can't be following expertly a recipe and therefore the combination of the recipe and my Krishna consciousness will guarantee that it's nice.

The problem is is that to discuss a metaphysical point sometimes takes so much technical detail, that maybe half and hour, 45 minutes or hours between we mention the point about Krishna consciousness. So at this point I haven't figured out how to bring it in every 5 minutes, so that people understand I am still talking about Krishna consciousness. But then according to the same principle what I am saying, everybody just has to chant Hare Krishna and be happy. And we don't need Varnashrama or farms, none of that! Because if you are just Krishna conscious, whatever needs to be done will just naturally happen. So from this day we will all be watching that you never bring up Varnashrama again, or farms, nothing, otherwise [indistinct 54:12] Do you understand? You can talk Varnashrama and farms, and I am talking technique within a marriage, and my technique is not Krishna conscious, but somehow or another yours is. This is the meaning of sensitivity. You didn't think out by saying that statement what the reaction will happen, so that means there was a weakness in your chain of your Krishna consciousness if etiquette was not properly followed.

Prabhu: Well, Maharaja, I just... I didn't want to create the situation. So Maharaja sorry...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay, but what works for you, yeah, yeah. But you said, you got Bhagavatam, you read Bhagavatam. You don't read Bhagavatam all day, there is interactions when you are eating, or you are in the bathroom, or you are sleeping or you are just sitting with your wife. So unless the same sensitivity and proper interaction that happen when you are reading Bhagavatam is going on, it will fail. And if you are doing that, then that's great. Then whatever it is we are having to say, you are doing. And you've done it through the best possible way. But we are talking of those who that's not working for them.

I'm addressing these points, because you look around and you just find the social system just falling apart and crashing down around the ears. You know, you watch temples go from hundreds of devotees in the temple to those same hundreds in the community, and then from the community they leave, because they are getting no answers how to operate their life, so that they can connect it to Krishna. I am showing down to how a fight you can connect to Krishna, it's not Bhagavatam, but it's shastra. Means, from that you can connect to Radha and Krishna's pastimes, you connect it to shastra, you connect it to Krishna's potencies, universal form, what I am talking is straight philosophy. You know, energy, energetic? But we just go, energy-energetic, okay, there is God and there is the living entities. But did we ever put energy-energetic meaning husband and wife? Devotees read the Bhagavatam, they don't catch the culture. Devotees read the Bhagavatam, they pick up the philosophy, not culture. Kashyapa is talking with Diti, Kashyapa is talking with Aditi. Both of them are approaching him about things they wanna do that are not correct. But if you read the verses on how he talks to them, even though he is basically instructing them, it is just so gentle and considerate and sweet. Which husband has ever picked that up? Whichever husband has gone, "Oh, this is how you are supposed to talk to your wife when she is going crazy and off the wall." Where is that man? Draupadi is sitting there in the Mahabharata and telling Yudhisthira Maharaja that he just stuffed up big time. Right? Yeah, he has gone through this gambling match, lost their whole empire, she was the empress of the world! From empress of the world, she is insulted in front of all the kings, and now she is living out in the forest in birch bark! Right? And she tells him. But you see his response. The examples she gives from shastra, she interprets them actually atheistically. He tells her she is an atheist. But the way he does it is so sweet and nice. Did you ever pick that up? So that's what we are talking about, we are just trying to point out what's there.

Prabhu: [Indistinct 59:42] Maharaja, but I didn't want to create this situation, I just told a little bit of... Consciousness of this point is also helpful.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes, but then you are saying by that being conscious, that point that I wasn't or the presentation, but I explained, I said that before I started, because the metaphysical, technical points to get into the logic take so long to explain that I was basing it on, that's why we are dealing with it.

Just like, let us say, I want to play the mridanga for Krishna. But I am gonna be playing te-ge-te-ta and other beats that have nothing to do, seemingly, with playing the thing, for 6 months, that means, I am gonna be putting in hundreds of hours that have nothing to do with kirtan, so therefore seemingly un-Krishna conscious. But the point of that practice was, now I can play drum for Krishna. So if I walk in on one of the practices after 3 months, "Oh, what's this got to do with Krishna? You are not playing drum for Krishna. You are just playing all these funny beats! Where is the kirtan? Where is the dancing?" Does that make sense?

So that's why we made the point, so therefore no "but's". I don't know if you were here the first day, the first day when we came, sat there in the evening, I explained all this, and that's also, if you really wanna know, why I don't... It's only if they bring it up as a question I talk, in fact, it is my mistake that I didn't stop and take another question. Just stop that the run of points are so nice that they might catch the consistency that on one principle it answers like one million questions in most men's mind what's going on? Right? That's my mistake, my over-enthusiasm, I should have stopped, take questions, broken it up, then it would have been more obvious, so I just was worried that I wasn't gonna follow the same logical point because... This is what? This is, what is it, Tuesday... You came Tuesday, right? Yeah, so then Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So is that three days where that kind of question hasn't come up. I've talked personally with devotees on that level, but not in the class. So I just got over-enthusiastic.

Prabhu: [Indistinct 01:02:58] Maharaja I didn't want to commit any offenses....

HH BVPS Maharaja: So is this understood, is there any more doubts on that point? You know, that what we were saying has no relevance? Okay, well, let's just do a general thing, just general. It's not specific.

How many of the ladies think what we were speaking on, if it was practiced by the men, it would make life much easier? 01:03:27 Okay. How many think it's not relevant? Okay. [Laughter] Is that okay? That's one... Very few will talk on the metaphysics. Because most people don't understand that metaphysics are part of the philosophy. So the point is is the metaphysics explain, they are the bridge between the philosophy and the actual application. So then from that you can move back and forth between the two and make that connection. But it's in the realm we are not necessarily used to working in. Therefore it sounds different than the Krishna consciousness, but it's the philosophy, like that, you need to bring that in.

It's just like the technique, all the... The traditional way of offering an aratik is you go in a room next to the Deity room, you sit down, you do your acamana, you do your prayers to the spiritual master, you do all your purifications, your meditation, dhyana, manasa puja. Then you go into the Deity room, pick up the lamp, offer the aratik and everything else, and it's never again, you don't start with Guru. Because the whole aratik before was started with Guru, and then the whole aratik after is then performed. Prabhupada has given us the same principle, but he has combined that, that approaching Guru is gonna happen between each article. Otherwise, the tendency will be to forget how the system is actually working. So sometimes we don't use that method, like that.

We will try. If I bring it too much to Radha and Krishna, then people think they are Radha-Krishna. You don't bring it in, they think there is no philosophy. You know, you don't take it and smash the guys over the head, they go on in their false ego that "I am doing fine." You don't present it nicely, then the women freak out. I could give much more gross examples that would cut right to the heart of the men, but the women would freak out. So you have to balance all that, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, like that. Okay?

Mataji: I just want to thank you very much that I have been connected to Krishna consciousness for 2 years now, and it was the first time in my Krishna conscious experience that I realized in one and a half hour that I didn't feel that I am some kind of zombie outside of Krishna consciousness, because these things are happening in my life as well. So I just want to thank you for that.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Like that.

Mataji: I have been married for 32 years, both before Krishna consciousness and after, and I just want to confirm from my personal experience that the one and only way to make it function is being [indistinct 01:09:22], and I just want to [indistinct 01:09:28] that's my experience and I am very grateful when I say that if this is not followed there is going to be very sad ends to marriages, both for men and for women.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Thank you. See, because this side of the question, just to explain it, the point is is, what's going on, Krishna has His devotees. So there is an overall principle of Krishna and the devotees, is the masculine and feminine principle. He is the male, and everything other than Him is female. At the same time it goes... So that would be in the philosophy, so that would be the more technical points that we are making, they are general, they apply to anything. Then you have specific where in the culture, how He deals with the women in His pastimes. Right? That then is reflected into the material world. So in that reflection then the living entity thinks that they are God rather than God is God. But the culture doesn't change, the science doesn't change. It's just because it's the way God deals. How does God deal with His girlfriends in the conjugal rasa? How does He deal in the parental rasa, older ladies? How does he deal with friends who are girls? How does He deal with friends who are servants, or friends who appreciate? All five are there in Vrindavan, right? Does that make sense? Bhringi appreciates Krishna. She is an aborigine, she lives on the other side of the Govardhana. And many times the gopis will bring her to Radhakunda when they are having their pastimes. And so then when Krishna, when they gamble, and then the wager is a kiss, then Radharani says, "Yes, Bhringi will give the kiss on my behalf." [Laughter] Right? So a wild aboriginal girl. These are mentioned in the Krishna book, just no names are given. So how does Krishna deal with everybody? That's the science that we are trying to explain. Does that make sense? So, you can't doubt it, because if God uses it and that works for Him, why wouldn't it work for you? You can't say, "My situation is different from God's." God created women, what's gonna be, how you can say it's gonna be different? Right? The ladies all like Krishna because of all these nice qualities. You know what I am saying? Do they ever say Krishna doesn't not look like a man? No. But if you look at it, very refined, decorated, subtle, gentle, sophisticated, a little different from our greased up to our elbows and funky, stinky jeans and T-shirt, tattoos and [indistinct 01:14:00] the girl on the back with the size 34, triple-Z chest.

Translator: What's that?

HH BVPS Maharaja: If you don't know don't worry about it.

Prabhu: [indistinct 01:14:24]

HH BVPS Maharaja: No, it would be... You probably don't know past D.

Prabhu: Should I translate for [indistinct 01:14:29]

HH BVPS Maharaja: [Laughter] I guess you could.


See, that's what I am saying. I can say things pretty straight, but you generally... If you don't catch it you just leave it. Like that, so... I used to be more blunt, but I've been told by people to be a little less blunt [Laughter] Does that make sense? So we see is that being gentle and refined and sophisticated is not unmasculine. You know what I am saying? That's the point. So therefore following the laws given by Krishna in relationship to everything, so we see in the Varnashrama system that there is laws for brahmachari, grihastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa. Having explained the grihastha ashrama, then it explains what the women do. Same in the Bhagavatam. It explains all the duties of the men, then it says the women. So you have 8 varnas, 8 ashramas, then the duties of women. Because the duties of women in varna and ashrama basically are the same as the men, but there is something unique about it. Therefore that uniqueness then takes proper dealing.

The Dharma-shastras would give the root of it. The pastimes and the different, you know, like Mahabharata, Puranas will show the application of it. But still, you have to look for it and figure it out. Is that okay? Okay, something...

Prabhu: If somebody due to the difficulties in life had instinctively learned all these things, then can that person both stay unentangled or nicely cooperate with the women?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah. Means, it's a little known point. Basically only some astrologers note it. Technically only those who can actually work with women can actually stay away from them. Because in astrology it's the same yoga. You see, like Shiva. He is the most renounced and detached, but he is the best with women. Narada Muni, he was the most, you know, he is the eternal brahmachari. But then, when it was arranged by Brahma due to his pride that he ended up with women, then he was able to keep entertained consistently 50 apsaras. That means, he was good. [Laughter]

But it's not that you will ever understand. Prabhupada said, men cannot understand women, women cannot understand men. Like if men could understand women, why would Krishna have to come as Lord Caitanya? Because it can't be understood. Does that make sense? So you can know the science, but what will happen, that you don't know, you can never predict. You just know that when these different situations come up, how to identify which situation you use what formula and then it will function. But what will come up when, how often, to what intensity, that you can never know or predict. There is no science for that, because they were created for that, they were created to generate unlimited variety. So that's the way they are.

Prabhu: The basic principle of operating it is that I am possessive, or that I am not possessive and independent and the other person is also independent individual?

HH BVPS Maharaja: That's a whole another formula. See, you have the principle of, masculine has two aspects. Means, where it's....yeah. Means, in the... I don't know if there is more, but...

Or let's say, okay, masculine has four aspects, maybe we put it that way. One, they can function independently of women and three that are functioning in connection with women. A man has to be able to distinguish between these two, if he can't do that, he will have problems. That's why sensitivity will always keep him in the state of those three that's working with females. Not that the part that's functioning independent is not also connected, it can be connected. But its connection is indirect. Does that make sense?

So these principles are then that of Sankarshana, which means, the generation of the field of activity. So whatever is the facilities and environment that you would call your grihastha life, that would mean your facilities, like your house, your furniture, your car, your land, your other paraphernalia, your clothes. That would include your prestige, your wealth, your influence, all these things that are the field in which the masculine-feminine relationship will be then based on. But those things that that relationship is based on, that is not the relationship. That you are rich, that's not the relationship between you and your wife. It's an environment within which the husband and wife can interact. The house is not the relationship, but it's a basis on which it can be expressed. The husband is a powerful man, but that's not the relationship with the woman. That's a consideration in the relationship. Does that make sense? Or beauty, he is beautiful, he is handsome, she is beautiful, but it's not the relationship, it's a basis. Or they are both intellectuals, or they are both very renounced, but that's the environment of the relationship. Does that make sense? So that's Sankarshana, that's where many men make the mistake that I am providing all this, creating all this, the wife should be happy. But you've created all that, but nothing is going on. You have the house, but there is no interaction. Does that make sense?

He comes home from work, just wants to kind-of time to himself, get away, like this, expects she is just gonna be in the kitchen cooking, serve him a nice meal, he could still be all moody and in his head, then he'll go watch the TV, and after all those great interactions, then when they go to bed, then he expects something is gonna happen. It means, he doesn't understand women at all. Because he has only been functioning in providing the environment, but he's never been interacting. Does that make sense?

So that's why then Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vasudeva, that's the position when the... In other words, when the relationship is dynamic, he has to be in one of those three moods. You know what I am saying? Specifically, Vasudeva, which means the activity. But if not, the right mood is there, desiring to be interactive, though maybe there is not an opportunity, the need to be interactive, though may not be happening, if those two are there, then the activity itself will work. Does that make sense? So that's a big problem.

At the same time, if no one minds, going back to the principle of argument, this particular principle is very important in that, in an argument. Is that when argument starts, it's not even that the woman necessarily knows what she is upset about either. Sometimes they know, but sometimes they absolutely just don't know. So it's not their fault, it's the accompanying friends of testosterone that create these things. You know, they have their own problems. Does that make sense? So [indistinct 01:29:15] See, problem is, he asked the question, I lost the flow. So then that means, when it started, if you don't know, if she doesn't know and she is not talking, then you have to go into this state of Pradyumna, or even back to Sankarshana, what means, you are just existing, nothing is happening. But it's an existence that's desirous of something to happen. So it's Pradyumna. Does that make sense? So, one doesn't say anything, one doesn't know what to do, one is just waiting to see which way it's going to go, because even the woman doesn't know. Then, when it's obvious, then immediately there is movement. Movement meaning, some dynamic element of the relationship. Does that make sense?

Generally what happens is, the men go back into Sankarshana. So it's just them and their things, but there is no connection between the feminine energy and Sankarshana. So therefore there is insecurity, that's why the fight increases, because the fight is over insecurity to begin with. So the man therefore has put them in a situation that makes the woman more insecure, because he is not interacting, but the door is not open for interaction. That's why in argument there is no need to leave the room. Even if they are saying, "Get out of here! I hate you, I don't wanna see you!" You don't leave the room. Right? Because those are just mediums to express that the attitude you have is unappreciated. It doesn't mean the person they wanna get rid of, just the attitude that the person has. In other words, whatever position you are in right now, when that starts, by saying that it means you move back to the position just before that. So if you were sitting on one side of the couch, she was sitting on the other side of the couch, and then you went and sat next to her, "get out of here" means go back to the other side of the couch. Do you understand? Or if she was on the couch, you were on the chair, you moved to the couch, "get out of here" means "go back to the chair." In other words, just whatever was the last position. And if they keep yelling at you "Move out of here," then you go to the next one back. You know, so if that pushes you out the door, then okay, then... Is that okay?

Prabhu: If the argument is going on, and the man is practicing self-control, is that the proper solution?

HH BVPS Maharaja: It's the only solution. But that self-control has to be dynamically compatibly going out, not in. Do you undestand? Means, the man thinks "I am controlling myself by sitting there and this lady is crazy... What's going on?" [Laughter] [Indistinct 01:34:02] That's Sankarshana. Or it's just an imploded Pradyumna. It has to be that, okay, she blew up now, what is it? Just sit there and wait until it's there, you are just waiting until you know. So the sense control has to be dynamic in the relationship, otherwise you are just controlling yourself and that, but it doesn't include her, that's why they get more angry.

Prabhu: So the proper attitude is self-control and being balanced but at the same time being active?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Not necessarily being active, being willing to interact. Pradyumna doesn't mean action is going on, it's a feeling, right? Pradyumna means, "Wow, that's a nice car, it does all the things that I need a car for, that would be nice." Anirudha is, "I got to have that car." See? There is a difference. And Vasudeva means, "I am buying the car." And a fight started means, immediately one goes humble and this and that, but if it immediately goes away, then it's fine, but if not, it means that you have to watch and see where it's going to go. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: I have heard from a friend that when the fight is going on, then we should never throw like terrible things like face to face to each other and they should never go to sleep before solving... At least not to have the anger in the heart... solving the situation. So if you could speak about some other technical things that can be done if the fight already started to take place?

HH BVPS Maharaja: The point is is, fight is there, if you use what we discussed, it will go away. But the point of that is that if you say, okay, you shouldn't go to sleep with that mood, then that's nice. But the point is is that what will that do? It's not that the rule "don't go to bed" or whatever, "don't let the sun set on an argument," or like that, or "let the day end on it," it's that you will be then trying to work it out, that's the dynamic point. Right? So the point is is, you are being sensitive, you are willing to interact, you are being humble, that's what's going to make it go away. Saying that the the day shouldn't end without resolving argument, that's only inspiration to do those things that were said. You know what I am saying? We say, "Don't let the day end without resolving the argument," but that didn't give you a way to resolve it, you just said "Don't let the day end without resolving it." So what it does is, it generates the desire to resolve it. But if you don't know how to resolve it still it won't help. So the point is is you have to want to resolve it, therefore we said Pradyumna, or you have a need to resolve it, that's Aniruddha. Then you will resolve it. Does that make sense? So this is the technique of resolving it, those other things are ways to inspire you that you will make the endeavor. Does that make sense? Because the point is is why by the end of the day? What man wants the argument to go on past three nanoseconds? You know what I am saying? So the Vedic concept is, why wait till the end of the day, do it right now. Does that make sense? That's the point.

So these other things are there to inspire, but they are not giving technique. Because the man, means let's go back in time where this statement would have come from. This concept would have come from the previous generation. But in those days they knew, basically they had to be a kind-of humble and considerate of the wife. The whole culture was there, man and woman come to the door, and woman goes through the door first, the man will open the car door for the woman. You have a table at which women are sitting, if one of them stands up at the table, all of the men stand up. So the whole culture was sensitive to the needs of women. You know what I am saying? So then in that environment then by saying, "Don't let the day end in an argument," means "Don't let your false ego get in the way, just be humble and do what you know you have to do to make it work out." You know what I am saying? But still the technique how to work it out is the same. You know what I am saying? Before they just knew, that's what you have to do, but due to false ego they didn't want to do it, so they put it off. So therefore then the elders say, "Don't let the day end with an argument," so therefore "Okay, I guess I got to go..." You know what I am saying? But here, what I am talking about is the technique, is the split second that it starts, within that second you are already working to correct it. We discussed the principle of moment. Moment is 1/11th of a second, so experience moves in that increments. So the moment it starts, the next moment you are already working to correct it. So the less of your false ego that gets in the way of, "But she is wrong, I am not letting this one go," or "I got to control myself," all those are just moments that go by before you can resolve it, and the more moments goes by, the bigger it becomes. You know what I am saying? So therefore then this technique will get rid of it, because one is sensitive, one is sense-controlled, those are the, Prabhupada gives those two principles of what a man, how a boy will perfect his interaction with the girl is sense control and sensitivity. Right? Does that make sense? So like that, therefore it will be generated.

Mataji: I would like to ask, if there is an argument between ladies, so there is argument between two ladies, and we know ourselves and we know what should be done, but can... Do the same principles apply when we want to stop argument between two ladies, or there is something different, completely different here?

HH BVPS Maharaja: No, the same. Means, who is the senior should take the step, because if the senior takes the step, the junior will feel like crap. Right? If they are equal, then whichever, means, whoever is wrong should take the step. But if you wanna get the other one, then the one who is right should take the step. Because then the one who was wrong knows she is wrong and she will feel even worse. So if you wanna feel a little bad, you start it, you wanna feel more bad, let the other person start it. Choice is yours. Okay?

Prabhu: The sense of security for men, what is that made of?

HH BVPS Maharaja: By being one?

Prabhu: [In Hungarian] [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: You know what I am saying? In other words, be confident that this is what your wife wants you to do. She wants you to be the man, she wants you to take the lead, you know, she wants that. But you have to do that. And she is gonna be constantly testing it. [Laughter] Because she wants to see if it's real. So your security is knowing that this is what she wants. You know what I am saying? Every woman wants. Women will get frustrated that they haven't met any man that do this for them. Then they'll talk independence, that they don't need men and this and that. But it's not actually.

I once saw an article on the two ladies that started the women's liberation movement in the 1960s in America, if you know the history or you know their names, but they were the two outspoken, nastiest, stinkiest, smelliest women's liberation, out there, burning [01:48:28] women. Right? So that was when they were in their teens and twenties, and that went full steam until their I think forties. Then the main one, she married a tycoon. Tycoon, big, rich, filthy, stinky guy. [Laughter] Tycoon, the guy with an outstretched limousine, the mansions, the private jet, that's a tycoon.

Translator: ...?

Prabhu: Mágnás.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Mágnás, okay. [Laughter]. That's a tycoon, the mágnás, okay, nice. Is that right?

Translator: Yeah.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay, you just have to use your nose more. Like that.

Okay, so this... So then her last [indistinct 01:49:43] was is she had her place, he would send a limousine that would pick her up, once the limousine picked her up, it went back to his place and picked him up. That way he didn't have to wait for her to get ready, and she could take however much time she wanted to get ready. Right? They'd go to the restaurant, it's already been reserved and the order has already been made before they get there. So she said, all she has to do is look beautiful and be feminine, and she was happy. That was the number one liberated woman in America.

Number two liberated woman, then she married one of these dock workers, the tough guys with all the tattoos that I explained before, tough, rough, the man is man, smells like one... [Laughter] Right? So the principle is, this is feminine nature. So the woman is not acting like it because no man is acting like a man towards her. A woman can't be a woman if a man is not a man. You know what I am saying? So the confidence that they want you to be a man and therefore to take on that role and that, that is then the security. Does that make sense?

Is the electricity going to go away from the generator? Is it?

Prabhu: Yes.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes? Electricity can go away from the generator?

Prabhu: If it is not switched on...?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Generator, if it's not switched on there is no electricity. Maybe that's the problem, that's the.... [Laughter] Switch it on... Do you understand? If electricity is working, will it ever break its connection with the generator?

Prabhu: Will not.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes, therefore if you are switched on the women will never go away. Because if you are switched off, then there is no women. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: So I would like to apply, or understand how to apply the things you were saying to a relationship between two men, if there is like a friendship, [indistinct 01:54:30] the boys and that creates insecurity in the relationship, that seems to be a feminine reaction, if you could a little more speak about...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Because everything that works is working on male-female. See here, our martial artist. [Laughter] Okay, so you are dealing, you have hands, when he is going this way, this is the masculine, this is the feminine, but it reaches the limit, then it comes the other way. Right? Then it goes this way, so that's masculine. Then it's... If you are taking the right hand, that's masculine, that's feminine, that's masculine, that's feminine. So any action within the creation is masculine and feminine interaction. Do you understand? So even if it's man and man, woman and woman, still that principle is functioning. But it will have more the simplicity, or man to man or woman to woman will have more simplicity. Man to woman, that's where it gets complicated. Right? That's why the principle is taught in man, male to female relationship, man to woman, or husband to wife, because that's the most intense application of the male-female principle. But after that it applies into anything.

You have a wall, you have a screw and you have a drill and a screwdriver. Now, you wanna put that screw into the wall. So you have an electric drill. Now, depending upon... Do you use any size bit to drive a hole in the wall? Anything? It has to be according to the screw. So right there, that's the masculine-feminine consideration. Now, can you just take the machine and just push it as hard as you like as quick as you like into the wall? No, you have to go at the speed that the drill will function and the wall can accept it. So you can take the wall as feminine and the drill as masculine. So you want a hole in the wall, but a hole in the wall is only gonna happen at the speed that the wall allows it. In other words, the man wants to do something with the women, but it's only gonna happen at the speed that they allow it.

Or, you could take your hand as the masculine, the drill as the feminine. You can only push or not as much as the drill will allow. You push too hard, the drill stops, you don't push hard enough, there is no hole in the wall. Do you understand? Like that. That's why the man has to be dynamic. Women want the men to be dynamic. Women who are taking the dynamic role in the relationship, that's artificial. They only do it with the idea that it will start the man doing that for them. You know what I am saying? In other words, if the woman starts an interaction on her own, that means, she wants something, there is something she is expecting you to do, either begin an emotional exchange, or begin an endeavor to create something to expand the environment. Does that make sense? So she either wants something, she wants a new this, a new that, or it means she wants you to reciprocate. She puts the food on the table, she doesn't ask you how you like it before you've tasted it. Isn't it? But once you've tasted it, if you don't say, "Oh, this is nice," then she may say, "How do you like it?" Because she is taking the masculine role there and trying to generate from you something. And then you are supposed to do something more and go, "Hmm." In other words, she wants to talk, so therefore then "Oh, yes, very nice," this, that, bla, however far it needs to go. Don't think, you know, "Why don't you shut up, I wanna eat." She wants to talk now, you talk. The point is is, you've married a woman to interact with and you want the interaction to be nice. So if the interaction is nice now, take it. Don't say, "Oh, after I eat, then it will be nice," no, it's nice now or not. And if you say, "Well, we'll talk afterwards," then you have a fight afterwards. Actually you have a fight from now, you know what I am saying? So that's the whole... Right? So in other words, she is initiating, because you are supposed to do something. Or, she knows you never say anything, so as she is putting it down, she may say, "Oh, you are really gonna like this," so that's the hint that you are supposed to say, "I like this." Do you understand?

So feminine being active in that way is always artificial. Artificial doesn't mean bogus, artificial means, not the natural position. So the male is always the subject, the female is always the object. If you've done something and she is impressed by that, then she will respond by activity, but that's a response to what you've already done, that's the natural feminine. So if your wife is not responding or doing anything means, in her mind you are doing nothing. Does that make sense? Women are always very just in the emotional field. How much you put in, you will get that much back. Right? So its not how much you think you should get back, it's how much you deserve to get back. So therefore if you put in the appropriate amount of positive action, you'll get back the appropriate amount of positive response. And if you've done something to upset them, then you'll get back the appropriate amount of disciplinary action until you've understood. In other words, sharing is a very important principle for ladies, so they share everything. If they are happy, they share it, if they are not happy, they share that also. Like that, as we mentioned before, happiness, distress for them is basically, it's just a different side of the same experience.

In other words, if there is emotional response from the woman for your action, the man feels confident, because the man is looking for emotional response, the woman is looking for security. That comes from the principle, philosophical principle of controlling and enjoying, or fear and attachment. So controlling is the masculine principle, enjoying is the feminine. So the man has control, the woman has enjoyment, right? So the woman looks to the man for the control, and the man looks to the woman for enjoyment. But control and fear are in the same position, so therefore if the woman doesn't feel she is in control of the man, she becomes fearful that there is no connection, there is no relationship, she becomes insecure. So that's why possession creates security, because it's yours, it's in your control, but if you don't behave right, then she is not sure if she wants that possession. You know what I am saying? The man likes something or doesn't like, if it's useful, he keeps it. A woman, she likes something, she keeps it, she doesn't like, she gets rid of it, it has nothing to do whether it's useful or not. You know what I am saying? Something very useful, she doesn't like it, she won't keep it. Something unuseful, she likes it, she keeps it. Does that make sense? That's why men will be very tolerant that woman is crazy, this that and so many things, because it's his wife says, it's the way it is, if she is nuts or something. While with the women if man is nuts then it makes them insecure because they either doubt your wanting to be with them or their wanting to be with you. You know what I am saying?

What is the time?

Prabhu: 2:20

HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay, so maybe we will take a little break and then continue. Okay? Jaya ho!

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya! Samaveta-bhakta-vrinda ki jaya! Jaya Nitai-Gaura-premanande Hari Haribol!

Prabhu: His Holiness Bhaktividya Purna Maharaja ki jaya!

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  1. Where Do ‘Liberated Women’ End Up? | The Transcendental Teachings of His Holiness Bhaktividya Purna Swami Maharaja

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