MAN WOMAN INTERACTION LECTURE #10 Eger, Hungary, 4th Aug 2007 Part 2

HH BVPS Maharaja: Any more squash subjects?

Prabhu: You mentioned, Maharaja, that the women have to feel that the men are attached to them, but you also said that it actually should be that the women are more attached to men [Indistinct 00:45] So how to put the two together?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, women are attached to the men. But it's not that he doesn't make them feel that he is attached to them. The point is is, duties will be performed. So whether you are materially attached or not materially attached, that doesn't matter, the duties will be performed, and part of the duty is to make them feel comfortable. So in other words, the sincerity is there in that you are going to perform the duties, it's not necessary the sincerity is there that you have the material, mundane need to be with them. But generally that state of existence comes later in the grihastha life.

In other words, by dealing with grihastha life according to scripture, in a detached way to please Krishna makes you free from material attachment. But being free from material attachment doesn't mean you don't perform the duties. Was Yudhisthira attached to being the emperor of the world, that's why he became? Or was that his duty? And he performed it perfectly, and everyone likes to read about it in the Mahabharata. You know what I am saying? So he sincerely endeavored to perform his duties, which included being the emperor. Does that make sense? So therefore to make the wife feel secure, therefore that should be done.

So in the beginning of grihastha life it's because one is attached. At the end of life, it's not because one is attached, it's your duty, but duty is the constant principle. Does that make sense? Because if you don't perform your duty then you'll only do activities when you feel like it. Man has duties, woman has duties, that's why one gets married. So whether somebody feels like it or not, duties are always performed. Does that make sense? So that makes the constant relationship. And so then later it's companionship that holds it together, rather than the need to be man-woman. So basically it comes to just two best of friends and it's just comfortable to work with each other, because you know each other so well and it works as a great team. It's not male-female, it's friends. You know what I am saying? So that's vanaprastha. Does that make sense?

Mataji: The question is, what is the proper mood that a woman is in interaction with another man that are not her husband and how is a woman under her husband's protection when he is physically not there?

HH BVPS Maharaja: When he is not there?

Mataji: Yeah.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, interaction is always pleasant. But it's just a matter of it's more formal or less formal. Known friends is less formal, and with others that's where it's not very close it's formal. And basically those that there is not supposed to be interaction, you just ignore it. Ignoring is better than telling people to get lost. Does that make sense?

When the husband is around then the woman will always look nice, dress nice, do everything nice. But when the husband is not there, that's when they dress very plain. In other words, a woman knows what is attractive to men. So when the husband is there, she dresses like that, when the husband is not there, she doesn't dress like that. So basically just basic things are there, she will use her, she won't go beyond the basics, you know. She wears her bangles, she wears her earrings that don't jingle and stuff and wears her kajal and bindi and that's about it and very, very simple, simple clothes. And when the husband comes home the first time, she remains in that state, this is the tradition, so that he sees how she dresses when he is not there. Then after he comes, then she'll dress up and stuff like that. Does that make sense? That doesn't mean when he goes to work during the day, that means when he goes out somewhere and then he comes back.

Mataji: And just connected the first part of the question, when we are doing service and we are in interaction with the men, how can we do this in a way that is actually the proper mood, so...

HH BVPS Maharaja: How to...? Okay. How to interact with other men if you have to do service with them?

Mataji: Yeah.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Basically, you just keep it formal. In other words, leave no doors open. You know what I am saying? Western concept somehow or another have this idea, you could flirt, but you don't let it go beyond that. But not so many are expert at operating that system. [Laughter] Does that make sense? So it's always as a formality. In other words, you know where the line is and you don't cross it, and you don't let them cross it. And if they cross it, you let them know.

Mataji: How do you do that?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Just tell them their behavior isn't appropriate, or get someone else to tell them. But it's firm, it's not emotional. I mean, if you are there with them, just a silence. "Oh, hey how is this going?" There is no answer. Just don't answer, you know, wrong question. Non-interaction means "no." "No" means "maybe." See, you have to follow your own formulas. You know what I am saying? And not... Someone calls you on the phone, you don't answer, that means, they send an sms, you don't answer, stuff like that. Or they talk to you and you just don't answer, you talk about something else. It's like "Oh, hi, how are you? Hey, is everything going okay?" and you say, "So, is the work ready?" And then they just know, "Oh, okay." You know what I am saying? Technically speaking, for women to shut down the relationship with the man is actually easier thing, because in the natural form the man can only move in a relationship as to that degree that the woman moves. You know what I am saying? So if the woman doesn't move, it doesn't happen. Does that make sense?

At the same time is then they need to be protected because always desiring solid relationships then they may... How you say? It can get dangerous. So in other words, the husbands are creating environments in which the women will be protected, but unless the woman wants to be protected, no one can protect her. So the most important thing for the protection of women is the women's desire to be protected. So a woman who wants to be protected, a man who is actually endeavoring to protect, then it will work. Does that make sense? Like that.

Prabhu: You mentioned, Maharaja, that women like to share about their happiness and unhappiness, so can we say that when the woman feels insecure then they don't wanna share these things either?

HH BVPS Maharaja: If she feels insecure then she doesn't wanna share those things, happiness and distress? No, she will share her insecurity. You won't be left out, don't worry. [Laughter] If it's a good day, you will hear about it, if it's a bad day, you will hear about it. You'll never be left out, like that. So don't be in anxiety that if she is insecure you won't hear about it. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: And if the woman does not share things with her husband, what could be the reasons?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Maybe he is not sharing his things, or he is not allowing her to control his things, or she doesn't feel comfortable in the environment, so what's hers then she pulls back to gain that security or there has been a command by the man that all of her stuff is his, so she is gonna prove that, no, it's hers. Or he doesn't interact with her properly so she doesn't want to interact with him, so then that sparks her false ego. He has done something to insult her, so therefore she takes on that mood of that jealous anger, and so then she shows her power through her things. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: Are there circumstances that are impeding that true manness in man to manifest?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Erm... taking advice from friends that don't know what they are talking about? [Laughter] Like that. Not taking, when the women are straightforward, seriously. Women, the feminine nature is always... How you say? There is word, you know, obtuse? Like indirect. So therefore it's not very often that they tell you as it is. So when they do, that has to be taken as a basis for all the time, not that discussion. Like if the woman says, "I don't like it when you do this," or "I need you to do this for me," or, "It's so nice when you do this," or "I don't like to be put in this situation," or... Like that, that means, that's a constant, so it's not just at the conversation. That's letting you know how they function. They don't necessarily do that very often. So when they do, you have to take it very seriously, and so therefore see that there are never in those situations, or you never deal like that, or like whatever it is they are saying. It wasn't just another conversation, that was The Conversation, and it won't last long. And if you joke about it or if you say, "No, but what about this?" the door closes, and who knows when or if it will open again. The woman's ego cannot tolerate that when they are being honest that they are in any way insulted. Does that make sense? Like that. So you have to be very, very careful. Those moments, then you just hear and then you figure out how to apply that, so therefore you take that and anything before that that didn't work or that did work, it means, it was connected to that. And therefore then these things in the future will also apply to that, unless it changes, and then they'll tell you. You know what I am saying? They wanna say, but they wouldn't be able to tolerate that if they said and you didn't accept it without any obstacle, then they won't say. They know they can say it and you will accept it, they will say it. But if they say something and then you play with it and throw it back in their face, then there is a big problem. Because that also means, then they are not going to deal with what you say as important to you. Yeah?

Prabhu: [Indistinct 22:07] purpose of mentors. Could we hear a little bit more about what's the purpose of this?

HH BVPS Maharaja: What's the purpose of a mentor?

Prabhu: The whole system of having mentors.

HH BVPS Maharaja: It's the, someone you can turn to that can help you to have proper perspective and understanding and inspiration and engage in service. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: This question includes that I am trying to find that how am I supposed to relate to if I had been speaking with other devotees, and the experience they had before Krishna consciousness was that when they had relationship with a girl that was [indistinct 23:40] intimate relationship, that what should I do, in any way get involved [indistinct 23:45] How to relate to the fact that [indistinct 23:48] the relationship, but [indistinct 23:50]

HH BVPS Maharaja: I mean the point is is, if what they say works for you, then you don't mind them being involved. Means, if it doesn't work then why would you want them involved? Otherwise you just stick to philosophy, sadhana and stuff like that. You know what I am saying? In other words, gain from the mentor what they can do. You know what I am saying? Someone is a teacher, so that means they know how to teach their area of expertise. A language teacher can teach language, a math teacher can teach math, a history teacher can teach history. You know what I am saying? So, like that, you go to language teacher for language, not for math. Does that make sense? So that means, if they know what they are talking about in marriage, then you can discuss it, if they don't, then there is no need to discuss it. You know what I am saying? Everybody has their nature, so they should act according to that nature. You know what I am saying? Means, false ego doesn't fit into the equation. You know what I am saying?

Just like someone is in the position of management because they are a manger, not because they are senior or bigger, fatter than anybody else, or been in the yatra for longer. So many times mistakes are made is taking the temple leaders, "Oh, he has been there longer." "I have been there longer than him, why I shouldn't be the president?" I am a Prabhupada disciple," or " I am this," or "I am that." No, it's who can manage and do the job, they should be the one doing it, right? You know what I am saying? Bhishma was senior to Yudhisthira or Dhritarashtra, or Duryodhana, but he had said, "I won't get married," therefore he is not, can't be king. Do you understand? So he is senior to everybody in every way. He is a Mahabhagavata, so that means in Krishna consciousness and philosophy he knows more than anybody, he was trained in the shastra and in the martial sciences by Bhrigu, Brihaspati, Shukracarya and Parashurama. Who is gonna get better than that? Bhrigu, son of Lord Brahma, Brihaspati, Guru of the demigods, Shukracarya, Guru of the demons - that's the whole universe. And Parashurama, which is the Lord's incarnation in the martial arts. Right?

Bhima is as strong as 10,000 elephants. That's not an allegory, is that what you say? He could take them up, spin them around and throw them on other elephants. Dhritarastra was as strong as 10,000 elephants. Solid iron deity of Bhima that Duryodhana, who was the most expert in club, and they used clubs that were equal to 100,000 of other clubs, and he would hit that deity as hard as he could, one, it would not fall over when hit, two, it would not break when hit; Dhritarastra by embracing it, crushed it into powder. Strong. [Laughter] Now, Bhima is very upset at the Rajasuya. Shishupala is not overly pleased that Krishna was chosen as the one to be worshiped out of the whole assembly of the universe. So he decided to express that discomfiture through some comments. Right? So Bhima was so angry, so he was trying to get up from his chair. Bhishmadeva just puts his arm across the chair and holds him in place, with one arm, not a whole arm, just a forearm. So Bhishma, we don't even talk about how strong he is. He defeated Parashurama in a battle, but he bowed out, so it wouldn't look bad for Parashurama, at the request of the demigods. So, he could say, "Hey, I am the man, step aside punks!" But he doesn't, right? So who is qualified, who should be, that's who runs things, that's who takes the position. It has nothing to do with prestige or anything else. Does that make sense?

So that's the point is therefore if the mentor knows something about grihastha life and you feel comfortable, then ask, if you don't, don't ask. Then if they know the philosophy, they know service, they know sankirtana, whatever it is that they are expert at, take advantage of that. You know what I am saying? Mentors are there in when you have in the academic field. Means, in some systems you have tutors starting from university, older students teaching younger students. And then in postgraduate then you have a mentor who teaches you how to think and become an academic. So it is there in the West, but it's basically... Also in the senior armed forces you have them, like that, they are there everywhere actually if you look. The skilled trades are there, these are always there, it's just recognizing them. Because previously you had relatives that would tell you what to do. The man, the older man in the family would pull the younger man aside and tell him, "Hey, you should do this or do that." And the women would do that for the girls, so it was there before, but the problem is is, we are stuck between an environment where materially it doesn't work, until we get spiritually established we are not used to these things, because in the spiritual they are there and in the traditional material they are there, but we are kind-of in-between. Is that okay?

Prabhu: The point of this is that when you choose a mentor, is it important to choose somebody whose nature is actually matching the nature of the couple who is choosing them?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Not to give too much of a British response, but absolutely. That's what Rupa Goswami says, you choose association that are like-minded, sva-jati, the same group, like that. Otherwise, how are they gonna give advice? Means, their advice may be good, but they don't know how to relate it to you. In other words, like you are picking a Guru. All the gurus are saying the same thing, but they may be speaking to a different audience. Does that make sense? So you choose the guru for which you are an audience of. Means, when they speak, you understand it and you can apply it. So the same for a mentor.

Prabhu: Also in India sometimes you see that we have men preaching to men and women being in some different relationships also like mothers or sisters, it's something like that. So if that should apply... [indistinct 35:57] possible to apply it?

HH BVPS Maharaja: In the relationships?

Prabhu: Like before Mataji the question [indistinct 36:06] so there would be like giving them [indistinct 36:12]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, yeah. Can I repeat in English? Erm... [Laughter] Okay, so it's [indistinct 36:33] these questions. [Laughter] [Indistinct 36:47]

In traditional families then you had natural relationships that functioned. So those same rules of conduct would then be applied within the modern family environment. You know, in other words, for example, the elder sister is treated like mother, the younger sister is treated like daughter, means, yes, it would always work if you use the Vedic approach. If you use the Western, it doesn't work, now it won't work if you do it. Do you understand? In other words, older sister like mother means, you respect her, not that you hate your mother, so therefore you hate your older sister. Younger sister means is daughter, means, you protect, you provide, you give her gifts, you are always kind, you are never unkind. It's said that the father's relationship with the daughter is that of the utmost kindness. Like that, that's Vedic. So if you follow that, it will work, everybody would like to be dealt with nicely. No? Something else?

Mataji: Matajis should follow their husbands by body, so physically, by words and in the mind, and what does it mean to follow your husband in your mind, and like if you don't agree with something, but you still do it, you speak like it, but within yourself you don't agree or you can't accept it, is that a problem?

HH BVPS Maharaja: What does it mean to follow the husband, body, mind and words? In other words, physically one is involved in activities that are favorable, mentally the interaction is all favorable, words would mean, the words and that are pleasant and [indistinct 40:26]. But if there is a disagreement, it doesn't mean it's not voiced. Does that make sense? Means, following means, you are trying to do something together. So therefore if something is not going how you think it should, then it should be expressed, because if you want things to go well for the husband, means it should go right, and if he is doing something that won't get a good result, you bring it up, because that means, he will get a result that's not good for him. But it has to be brought up pleasantly. You have to wait for the right moment. And if your having brought it up it doesn't get anywhere, leave it. Wait for another moment. You know what I am saying? Means, after they tried it and it's failed miserably, then bring up an alternative, or wait till they ask you, but never say, "I told you so," otherwise you are just poking the... waking the dog. Is that okay?

Mataji: Is it possible to operate things based on this, I mean...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Is it possible to operate things based on this?

Mataji: I mean, if there is disagreement ongoing on a point which is part of one's life, is it possible to still work it like that?

HH BVPS Maharaja: It's like this. Let us say there is something you want to get. You don't have it. How are you gonna get it? Right? That technique always works. But bewilderment comes, because there is the sense that I already have it. And anything you have acts according to your rules. Anything you don't have works according to its own rules. So that's where the bewilderment comes in. You wanna deal with it as it's yours, which it is, and if that works smoothly, fine. But if it doesn't, then you deal with it according to the technique that it's not yours, even though it is. Does that make sense? Women are 4 times more clever than men, surely you can get it done. Right? And clever enough that they don't know it.

Mataji: Somebody requested to ask this question... [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Somebody from.. sitting in the front wearing a blue saree, and sitting right next to the temple president [Laughter], and another lady wearing a green saree [indistinct 44:47]. Yes?

Mataji: There is a lady who has been left by the husband, what is she supposed to do?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Who has been left? Left where? Bus stand? [Laughter]

Mataji: Forever.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Forever, [Laughter] I see, okay... Can you guarantee it's forever, how do you know they won't trash the woman out, that the karma, I kill you, you kill me, I left you, you left me. Okay, she has been left, and then?

Mataji: What is the things... technical things. Should she wear bindi?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, he has left her, but that doesn't mean they are divorced, so she still wears the bindi, just means they are separated. Maybe permanent separation, but still... In other words, a woman who has been left by the man, if there is no divorce, the man is still her husband and she still deals in that way, even though there is no contact. Does that make sense? So therefore she would still act and function as a married woman. Like that, because that way then also then other men won't bother her, because otherwise if she reverts back to that of an unmarried woman, then she has the whole pack of men, you know... Does that make sense?

Prabhu: So shastra states that in the Vedic culture we deal with all women as they are our mothers, mother. Can you tell us how to apply this in our everyday temple life or in out preaching, like technically what does this mean?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, yeah, okay, shastra says we deal with all women as mother. Means, we are respectful, you are respectful and considerate, but that's, that's, but only in the areas where you have to interact. In other words, you have to interact, you interact properly. You don't have to interact, you don't. The wife, you are here at the temple and she is at home, you still have to call her. Or, you are calling, she is at the temple, but she is busy, and every time you call she says, "Oh, I'm busy now, I will talk to you later." You still have to call. Otherwise she'll say, "Oh, you never call." Right? All your options of being able to talk has to be available, whether they wanna take it or not, that's up to them. Do you understand? But when you are dealing with other women, you don't have to do that, in fact, you don't do that. [Laughter] Do you understand? Means, you have to talk to them, you talk to them. Outside of that you don't deal with them. But what you do deal with them you are properly respectful and use proper tones of voice and proper consideration. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: So this is quite a small temple and the devotees are here, men and women naturally have relationships like in the office they have work together or others because the area is small they move around in the same space and sometimes if men go by and don't say anything to the women, they get offended, so should they...

HH BVPS Maharaja: But it says, you went by, that means, you contacted them. I am saying, if you don't contact them, you don't go out of your way to contact them. But if you contact them, then what's appropriate for the situation, that much dealing is there. Does that make sense? In other words, you are doing service in the temple, there is some lady in the kitchen, you don't walk into the kitchen to say "Hi!" [Laughter] Do you understand? Like that. But you bump into each other in the hallway, then you say, 'Hi," but you keep going. In other words, let's put it down this way. Don't laugh and joke with them. Okay? Does that make sense? And if you do interact with them... Means, like that, don't laugh, don't joke, don't do things that are considered more close. Just keep it to the service and that's it.

Prabhu: If a man gets married, it means he has a need for a woman, so then how can he maintain this independent mentality?

HH BVPS Maharaja: He's, through his independence, chosen to be in that situation. But having chosen that situation you have to deal with it. Does that make sense? You are in an airplane, you choose to jump out, so now... So your independence was to jump out. Once you jumped out, now you have to deal with, you know, now you have to pull that funny little cord for the parachute to open.

Prabhu: But my question would be that if this independence is possibly there, then why would one jump out of the airplane?

HH BVPS Maharaja: For fun. [Laughter] But it's dangerous. Your chute could not open. [indistinct 55:50] is hanging out at the pub with the boys.

Prabhu: [Indistinct 56:10] how one actually gets married because the attachment is there, then how can we...

HH BVPS Maharaja: How is this independence further... How you say? Continually be manifest?

Translator: Yes.

HH BVPS Maharaja: It's just like we were saying, you jump out of the airplane, you still have the independence whether you wanna pull that cord or not. You know what I am saying? And you could move your arms a little bit, whether you wanna smash into the building or hit the concrete pavement, or whether you wanna get squashed feet first or head first. [Laughter] So you always have independence. So therefore you independently decide to go into the situation and within the situation you constantly have the independence whether you wanna behave properly or not. When an argument starts, you don't have to be humble, you know. If you enjoy 3-day fights or divorce, hey, go for it. That's your independence. So at any moment you have independence.

Prabhu: It means we have to work with the amount of independence that we have?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Smart. [Laughter] When you go to the market, what do you work with?

Prabhu: As much money as I have. [In Hungarian]

HH BVPS Maharaja: It's just like this. The wife asked you how is the prasad? So you have independence to say nothing and start a fight, or say, "It's terrible," and start a fight and end up cooking the rest of your life for yourself, or you have the choice, you can say, 'It's great," or you could have the independence to say, "It's fabulous," or you could say, have independence to say, "Best food I've ever had," or there is so many independent choices you have. That's why every independent choice there is a result. You just have to be man not to live with the result. You know what I am saying?

The men like to go out and do manly things, you know, go out and scratch, and not take bath and not shave, or let's say, not take bath, not shave and scratch. Right? And so you go out to do what? Ride around on your motorcycle, climb a mountain, go hiking, a man feels independent. But when you are riding your motorcycle and in the path then there is something in the way, do you say, "Well why do I have to move, I am independent." No, you move around the tree, and then you say, "Wow, that was fun." [Laughter] Do you understand? So why that same principle wouldn't apply in family life? You know what I am saying? Because you just want it with no endeavor to go the way you want, but how is that possible? There is nothing else in your life that works like that, absolutely nothing. Everything you have to work for depending upon the moment. Isn't it? There is nothing that just happens because you want it to. So why should it be any different in marriage life? This is why it's called maya, because people just think it will just because I am attached, everything is gonna work perfect. And because I am attached, everything is gonna go perfect, everything I do will be perfect, and because I am attached, I am the world's authority on family life. And I am not exaggerating. I run into this every day. No, I didn't mean you, I was just saying. [Laughter]

Prabhu: I thought about it myself and so I was surprised you said it.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Oh, I see, okay. Does that make sense? So that is the thing within, that's why duty must be performed, because attachment, you think, I am connected, everything is just gonna go the way I think it should. Right? It's just like here. You have a policy of three years of association. That means, there should technically be nothing that you haven't said about yourself and what you are expecting from a marriage, and what you are expecting back from the other person. Everything you are willing to do, everything you are expecting from the other person. In fact, if you were smart, that would have been the first discussion. So then if you get married, and then you wonder, "Who is this person I am married, " whose fault is that? "Oh, she is nice and I feel really good in her association." Okay, nice, good, but what about what kind of house you are gonna live in? How much money you need, how much are you going to the temple, how much are you involved in the temple, how much does the temple authority control your life? Like that, how much facilities are you gonna have? How much does she require? What kind of language does she understands and appreciates and what she doesn't? What kind of activities are you going to do? What makes you special out of all the other boys that she chose you that you better maintain? You know what I am saying? Those are the things that create difficulties. Boy and girl sit together in favorable situations, it's nice. But how are you going to maintain that "nice," that's a very big science.

Prabhu: [In Hungarian]

HH BVPS Maharaja: I just though... One other point. Mothers like the son to be dependent, meaning, he can't do anything for himself, and she does it all for him. Wives expect you are gonna do stuff for them, that was a response to your previous... About being a man. In other words, the mother makes you dependent upon them by being able to do everything for you. Wives make you dependent upon them, and then you do everything for them. You know what I am saying? In other words no one else can do anything for you than your mother. And wives, you don't do anything for anybody else except them. Same principle, different application. So when you use the mommy's boy on wives, they get really annoyed. If you manifest the mommy's boy mood on the wife, they get very annoyed, because the mother [indistinct 01:07:28] to take care. But having gone through so many years of that, you are supposed to take that and reverse it and put that back. I have a battery, I put it in the charger. The charger puts energy into the battery. Then I take the battery out of the charger, I put it into my tape recorder, and then the battery takes energy from the tape recorder? Right? No. Means, you put it into the tape recorder, it gives energy, that's how it works.

Prabhu: [In Hungarian]

HH BVPS Maharaja: There is one more. [Laughter] The answer to the question before, yesterday, or day before, I don't remember, about when will the women behave like the men? They are not taking so much and everything like that. The answer just came. After child-bearing age. They take energy their whole life from the husband, from the father, and then when they are older, then they just give. Now your question.

Prabhu: So if I understand properly, is it that we instead of endeavoring not to be affected by women leaving us, we should endeavor to operate the relationship properly?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes. [Laughter] Means, if it's operating properly, why would they go anywhere else? That's what they are looking for anyway. A woman wants to make it work. You just have to make it work. Does that make sense? The woman wants it to work, but they want you to do it. Otherwise, why are you the man? The man is the doer, the man is the leader, the man is the boss, that means, he does it. You know what I am saying? So therefore if you think, "I am the boss, I am the leader, I am the this and that, and therefore I am gonna sit here and do nothing, the woman is gonna do everything," is that logical? Right? The leader, he just sits in his office, does nothing, and everybody else has to do everything, because he is the temple president. No. They do everything, because he is the temple president, he does all the things to get them to do it. Right? So if you take it, the husband is the leader, the wife follows, he is the boss, he calls his shots, then he has to do it. But that means, calling the shots, what works for the woman.

Translator: Calling the shots means...?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Calling the shots means saying what should be done, [indistinct 01:12:23] the decisions. Right? But it has to work according to woman, that's why we gave the point of the drill and the wall, you can only push it as quickly as the wall will take the drill. Right? What's the word for the drill?

Translator: Fúró.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Fúró. Maybe because in Bengali hole is "futo."

Prabhu [indistinct 01:13:20] [Laughter]

HH BVPS Maharaja: But it's the guy going through the holes. [Laughter]

Prabhu: So if we don't endeavor to get rid of the pain we feel for the woman leaving us, is there something lacking in us?

HH BVPS Maharaja: If you don't get rid of the pain?

Prabhu: If we don't endeavor to get rid of that pain?

HH BVPS Maharaja: It means, then you are living in the past. Past is the mode of ignorance. The past will be that element of Sankarshana, it's only the field, there is no interaction. You know what I am saying? So how can you operate the relationship with the woman if you are thinking of the past? When you are dealing with women, you have to deal in the present. You know what I am saying? Prayojana is the reflection of the mode of, it means, it becomes the mode of goodness, its reflection is the mode of goodness. Like that. So that means then therefore women being from that you have to deal in the present, which is the mode of goodness. Right?

So situating yourself in goodness means I am able to deal in the present moment without worrying about what I am gonna gain out of it or what I've lost in the past. But if you live in the past or future, then you'll have more of the masculine element. If it's only past, then you'll just be masculine, so therefore there is no connection with the woman. While dealing in future you can as long as you are considering the woman in the equation for what's to be gained in the future, but if her emotions aren't considered in the equation, she'll still feel left out of that endeavor in the mode of passion. So if you want to deal with the woman successfully means, you have to be in the present, means you have to be in the mode of goodness. Does that make sense?

Women don't like the mode of ignorance, because even when they are lamenting, they are doing it in the present. Men lament, they do it in the past. That maybe the present, but they project themselves from the past. Women are lamenting, but they experience the lamentation of now. So even therefore even seeming they are mode of ignorance you have to deal with them in the present. Or they want something, which is future, but the reason they want it, because they are experiencing it at present. Men thinks "I will get that," and he projects himself into the future. The women don't project themselves in the future or past, they deal with the present. Does that make sense? It doesn't mean that the soul is in the mode of goodness, it means the feminine nature operates in the mode of goodness. Like a cow, a cow operates in the mode of goodness, the soul is not necessarily in goodness. As a human, they may be, they may not be, but their operation is goodness. So the only way to deal with them is through goodness. So goodness means, knowledge, sense control, proper performance of duties, austerity of the speech, austerity of the body, austerity of the mind. You do all those things and you can deal with the women. So question might arise, "Then you are saying, if we are pure devotee only we can deal with women." Now you start getting the idea. Why is grihastha ashrama is there? For you to enjoy yourself or for you to go back to Godhead? So if you didn't become a pure devotee as a brahmachari, now grihastha ashrama is there to make you into pure devotee. Do you understand? That's varnashrama. Varnashrama is to create the proper qualities in the living entity to go back to Godhead. Right? So, if you didn't learn it as a brahmachari, now you get an opportunity to learn it as a grihastha. Same lessons, just the knife is a little sharper, cuts more finely. [Laughter]

Prabhu: Maharaja, you mentioned that women change after childbearing. This question is sometimes, people say if you have kids, that brings all the problems. Does it actually solve any problems, or it doesn't, or something else?

HH BVPS Maharaja: It deals with that aspect. I mean, is the idea of grihastha ashrama to change the woman? Or is the idea of grihastha ashrama that all the material desires and needs that I have, that are keeping me from Krishna, I engage in them in such a way that they are in connection to Krishna, so therefore the thorn removes the thorn and I don't have them anymore? Right? Grihastha ashrama is not the process by which women are turned into men. Men remain women and turn the women into men, that's not grihastha ashrama. Grihastha ashrama is where men act like men, therefore women can act like women, then the actual rasa can be tasted and then having been engaged in Krishna's service then it can be removed. Does that make sense? So that's the point, is the activities within the grihastha ashrama are not maya if they are connected to Krishna. If they are not connected to Krishna, then they are maya, but so is the activities of brahmachari, vanaprastha, sannyasa. Is the mayavadi sannyasi who is very straight, follows all the rules properly, is that maya or is that Krishna consciousness? It's still maya, but it's a superior maya than the grihastha maya. Just like gold is maya, but it's better maya than silver. Do you understand? Like that. Like badly performed grihastha life is like an iron chain, and then the better is the form, the better the quality. Is that okay?

Prabhu: I want to ask what are the husband's responsibilities in connection with these wife's spiritual programs, and what are his responsibilities in everyday life?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, the husband's responsibilities towards the wife are to create an environment in which she can engage all of the elements of her nature in Krishna's service. Does that make sense? Some question on that, or...?

Prabhu: I was thinking that sometimes husbands are very... They somehow push certain things on the wives, they try to act, for instance, some example, try to inspire his wife to follow him, and how should he do this in such a way that actually she can... Help her to follow, to inspire her to make progress in spiritual life?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Let's say I have a piece of split wood. Split means like cut into pricks. I wanna make that into a circle. How do I do that? No idea?

Prabhu: Put the two ends together.

HH BVPS Maharaja: And then, what happens if while I pull the two ends together, it splits?

Mataji: You have to put it into water?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yes, you have to put it into water, when it becomes soft, then it's bent. So is the purpose to get you result in the form of just external, or you are trying to get the living entity? Right? You want just the body, or you want the mind?

Prabhu: The body and the mind.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay. Forget it, that means you have to have the mind. Mind means body. Body just means body. So that means, you have to find how it works. But as I mentioned, since here you have three years to work all that out, then sadhana and those things should be discussed. Discussed means, not trying to impress the other with what you should say, but what you are thinking of. And it should be that your... If you wanna make it work, you are willing to accommodate whatever answer they give and start from there and work on it.

I am saying, you can start with it. I know one grihastha couple where the opening conversation was, "I wanna get married, but I am not interested in kids." That was the opening sentence. Not, "Hi, how are you?" You can start with "Hi, how are you?" but after you have to get down to what's the reality. Of course, now the boy has, the trust that has been developed, now the girl in the boy, now they are going to have children. And the other party agreed, if that's what it takes to make it work, that's the way it is. Not saying that that's the standard, just talking about the one was able to say it and the other one was able to "Okay, that's the way it is." You know, they said, "I'd really like to have kids, but if that's the way the relationship is, okay, that's what it is." You know what I am saying? And then, with time it went the other way. You know what I am saying?

That means, in one week they had worked out things that possible most grihasthas haven't even discussed in their whole life. That's down to garbhadana-samskara, what is the activities they would or would not do, I mean, it was a pretty straightforward stuff. It was all dealt with pleasantly. Does that make some sense? The point is, you guys got three years, I am just talking about one week. Okay, give it two weeks, three... Right? Does that make sense? So it should all be clear, so now that it's suddenly, "Oh, this is different or that's different," why? You know what I am saying? That shouldn't be a question, not from this [indistinct 01:31:06] And if it is, even if it is, if one didn't work all those things out, work them out now. Why don't they wanna follow their sadhana? What's wrong? What's there? What's missing? What's lacking? What's the other idea? What's... Does that make sense?

If the wife doesn't want to do sadhana, there must be a reason, it may go back to something as simple as, "Well, the last time you got so serious about the sadhana, then you were very rough with me and wouldn't take..." Because, you know, then, as the man gets more Krishna conscious, then the woman gets more maya. But as we discussed, the more he actually becomes really Krishna conscious, the better he behaves with her. So she sees that, she wants sadhana. I had one devotee was telling me, he married a karmi, straight karmi. But she married him because he was a devotee, because he was gentle and nice and had some focus and direction. So at some point he was kind-of, wasn't chanting his rounds, wasn't going to the program, so she just told him, "I married you because you were a devotee. You chanted your rounds, you were going to the temple, you were so nice. Now you are in maya, you are not nice." She is still not a devotee, but she just wanted him to be one. Do you understand? So what's the reason behind it, you should be open. It's not a matter of, "Oh she doesn't wanna go to the temple programs, she is in maya." But why is she in maya? What experience has happened that she doesn't wanna go? Or what is it it's nice she is gaining by not going to? And adjust that to another time of the day. You know, if you are not going to Mangala-aratik, you wake up and say something nice to her, and everything like that. When you go to Mangala-aratik, you just get up, you are rough, you are this or that. You know what I am saying? Because you are going to Mangala-aratik, you get up within the split second to just get everything exactly right. So if that five minutes of pleasantness is important, get up five minutes earlier. In other words, you can't get the sadhana at the expense of... You know what I am saying?

You wanna make this work? If just she is supposed to do it, then what's your job? If she is just supposed to go, then what does she need you for? If she is just gonna do it automatic, why the relationship? You know what I am saying? Does it make sense? So you've agreed to a relationship, that means you have to make sure that that relationship then is based on Krishna consciousness. Right? It's not that being in Krishna consciousness means no relationship. You already had that as a brahmachari. Why get married? You got married for the relationship. So that means, relationship has to function, and you have to do the Krishna consciousness. The relationship aspect can't be dry, even for a nanosecond. It only takes a nanosecond to start a fight. Yeah? In other words, you are trying to be ideally Krishna conscious. So you have to figure out what's gonna make it work. Right?

Prabhu: In the lectures here as you gave in 1997 you said that the husband should act as a temple president, and the wife as a temple commander. Could you explain?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Are you sure? I would have probably said, the husband is like the GBC, the wife is like the temple president, because the GBC doesn't do the management, the temple president does the management. You know what I am saying? The man creates the environment, the woman manages it. The GBC's business is to see that the standards are maintained by the temple president. Does that make sense? So therefore there are standards, so he has to see that the environment is there in which those standards can be maintained. Do you understand? The man provides the things that the woman cooks with. What will be cooked, that's up to the woman. You have a whole house to interact in, in which room you'll be interacting, that's up to the woman. Like that. You provide so many clothes, which one she wears, that's up to her. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: And what happens when the husband doesn't properly understand this principle and he always wants to kind-of tell the wife what should be done?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Failure, fight, dissatisfaction, insecurity. Do you need any more?

Prabhu: No more questions.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay. [Laughter]

Mataji: If the husband or the wife cannot be faithful to the other, whose fault is this? The fault of both or just one?

HH BVPS Maharaja: This is a very dangerous yatra [indistinct 01:40:08] [Laughter]. It can be both. It's very complex, this one, it takes a great amount of maturity to understand the answer. That's the problem with this particular question. Like that.

Erm, you could say, if the man is behaving properly, then the wife will respond properly, then they'll be satisfied. The man doesn't behave properly, the wife doesn't respond properly, then it may inspire either of them to look elsewhere. At the same time is, you could say that if their commitment to the religious principles is strong, despite this it will still work. Does that make some sense? So in other words, when we say all these things on the men, because the men, they are supposed to be the ones being the dynamic operating, but it's not that the women aren't trying to take part nicely also. Does that make sense? So if both of them are trying their best, then it should work. Does that make sense? Is that okay? More detailed it's dangerous. Okay.

Mataji: What do you think about friendship between men and women?

HH BVPS Maharaja: It can be there, but you just have to be careful. I mean, all of Krishna's girlfriends are friends with Balarama. And all of.... Okay, let us adjust this. All those gopis in conjugal rasa with Krishna are in friendship rasa with Balarama. [Laughter] [01:43:33] Language problem. And all those in conjugal relation with Balarama are in friendship relationship with Krishna. So it's possible, but you have to be careful, like that. That's why you don't hear much of Plato's theory. Because what she is talking about is what's known as a platonic relationship.

Mataji: So there is a friendship between a boy and a girl. And at one point the boy wants to go beyond the friendship mood, but the girl would like to maintain the relationship as a friendship, and what she should do so that it remains as...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Just keep it that way. Just tell the boy, and the boy should accept. If you try [Indistinct 01:45:28] [Laughter]

Prabhu: This question is connected to astrology, when devotees try to associate we generally check their astrological charts, and generally we get a certain percentage. But is there an opportunity, is it possible to go behind this number of percentage to actually find out which areas are compatible and which areas would be more difficult in the relationship?

HH BVPS Maharaja: That's what the compatibility is for. You know where the strengths are, you know where the weaknesses are. So you don't get upset when the weaknesses are manifested. Therefore you just play to the strengths. Let us say, there is not, intellectually there is no compatibility. But emotionally there is, therefore function everything through emotional, or use intellectual things in an emotional presentation. Or there is no compatibility in, let's say, recreation. So therefore, depending on what it is, one or the other just has to do what the other one likes, or it's the easiest if the man just does what the woman likes. You learn the lagging. You know what I am saying? Or if there is no compatibility sensually, so then don't get upset that sensually nothing happens. Or, if there is no compatibility in emotional attachment, so don't get upset if the other person is not telling you how much they love you and this and that, as long as they are willing to commit to the relationship and do their duties, then you should be satisfied. Or if there is no compatibility, let's say, in common nature, someone is...You know, means... So therefore these platforms of truthfulness or cleanliness, or these kind-of things, if there is difference, then you know it's there in the chart, you don't get bothered by it. Or, words which you generally never agree to, but if there is no result in nadi, which is the zodiac signs are opposite, then if there is no conversation naturally generated, don't get upset. You know what I am saying? Is Gouravani still up there?

Does that make sense? So the point is is that's what it's for, is to know. It's not just, "Oh, it's 50% or it's 72%, or it's 92%" Right? It's what's strong, what's weak. You know what I am saying?

Prabhu: [indistinct 01:51:08]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Did you hear?

Prabhu: That you were calling?

HH BVPS Maharaja: No, but could you hear what I was talking about.

Prabhu: [Indistinct 01:51:20]

HH BVPS Maharaja: I just wondered if I left anything out on all the nadis and stuff. We did attraction, sensuality, attachment, recreation, intelligence, emotions and just, you know the one where the charts are, the signs are opposites, so that they generate conversation, is there anything else? That's everything?

Prabhu: Same everything.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, okay. Because his question was is that if you check the compatibility, can you also check what's the strength and weaknessess. But it was, you check it through those. Yeah?

Prabhu: And also the superimposition of one chart on the other one, in other words it happens that the boys chart gets up on the girl's chart [indistinct 01:52:18] girl's chart on the boy's chart, there is another placement [indistinct 01:52:21]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Okay. Right? Did you hear that? So means, all that is there, that's why astrology is used, so that you know what's going on.

Translator: His question was, is this actually getting close to devotees(?)?

HH BVPS Maharaja: How you say... [Laughter] It may be, may not, but I am not getting involved.

Mataji: How much can you... How much does the strength of the attraction indicate the compatibility?

HH BVPS Maharaja: It's just one out of all. I am not sure what the numbers are, Goura (?) disappeared again. Oh, there up. Attraction is how many points?

Prabhu: Two out of 36.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah. The most important has 8, if that's not there, don't even bother.

Translator: If 8 is not there...?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, there is 8 different things that you are checking, and they have, one of them has 8 points, one has 7, one has 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Right? So the one with 8 points is generally, I think most take it that if that's not there, they don't even bother looking at the rest. No? Like that. Because that's the thing, just will there be nice interaction? That companionship, like that. Does that make sense?

So that's 2 out of 36. Generally what devotees look for are that companionship, common goals, those kind-of things that are like that. A little bit less, which ones, which ones are that?

Prabhu: Graha maitri...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, graha-maitri, that's friendship.

Prabhu: [Indistinct 01:55:01] has 7, which is common goals and [Indistinct 01:55:05]

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, like that. So if you have that 8, that 7 and that 5, it's... seven, five, it's 20 out of 32, so right there that's above 50. Doesn't mean that the other things won't be... But you can work it out. I think the maximum you get is 92, that means, you can't get a 100%. 8% is left just so you can fight, otherwise where is the taste?

Mataji: And is there a 0%?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Oh, zero, yeah, you could definitely probably get zero, yeah you could probably get zero.

Prabhu: Once I saw a 92 percent compatibility, but once I started looking at the names I realized that I just clicked one of the two persons... that the person was the same...

HH BVPS Maharaja: [Laughter] You found that you checked the compatibility of yourself with yourself. This is great! I heard a 92%

Prabhu: [Indistinct 01:56:39]

HH BVPS Maharaja: 2 year old English boy and an 18 year old Indian girl? [Laughter] Is that okay? So those three that I know, isn't it? Those are like the main as devotees. But the point is is, if you are interested in kids and other things, then other things should be checked also. So the more material desire, the more you have to have those work. The more devotion the less, then those are in place, strong, everything will work. And of course, if you throw in 2 points for attachment, then all the better. Anything else?

Prabhu: I would also like to ask a question about horoscopes...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Means, yeah, now is the time, you have some backup here. [Laughter]

Prabhu: You were talking about... To what extent does it affect devotees...

HH BVPS Maharaja: To what extent does it affect the devotees, the horoscope?

Prabhu: Usually they set up the horoscope, but they say that Krishna can change the whole thing.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Of course, Krishna can change if you want it to, but... So but the point is is, the answer to your question is how much does the horoscope affect the devotee is, would be, "How much does the material energy affect the devotee?" What is the horoscope? Horoscope is, you perform activities in your previous life, the results of those previous activities are being then awarded to you through the modes of nature. The qualities of those modes of nature then are in control of all the things within human influence. Means, all those areas of influence are called karakas, all those karakas then are, then authority of them are given to the nine planets. So the nine planets simply are in charge of rewarding you with the results of activities you performed in previous lives. You know what I am saying? So your horoscope is you, it's not some foreign thing that's there in some machiavellian way imposing its dictatorial power over you and you are just the innocent bystander. The planets are like a waiter in a restaurant that simply brings you the meal that you ordered. Does that make sense? That's all. So it's not this thing, "Oh, we are devotees, we don't care." Of course, you don't care, we only care about Krishna. But the point is is, it doesn't mean, it doesn't have effect. The modes affect you. How is that happening? What, through what medium are the modes working that it happens to you? It's called the planets, right? Each planet has a Vishnu Deity. Now, if the Lord is pleased, He can adjust it if He likes, but that's if He likes. You know what I am saying? That's the point.

It's like this. Why would you get a result for an activity? So there is part of it is what you want, and part of it is what you deserve. So the part of it that we want, we never get disturbed by free will or destiny or horoscope, we are happy. The part that we deserve, that's where the question, "Where is my independence? Where is my free will? Why all this pre-destiny?" Right? Someone steals something. So what they want is the money and the enjoyment they can have with that money. What they deserve is going to jail. So when they are out there spending the money they stole, no one is going, "Oh, what about my free will?" Right? And when they are put in jail, then they start talking about free will. Right? You know what I am saying? If someone walked in now and said, you know, called you over and said, "Hey, some distant unknown relative just died and you just inherited one hundred million dollars," you wouldn't go, "Me? Where is my free will? This is nonsense! I mean, what's going on here?" Right? So that's the point, it's we only complain when it doesn't go the way, when we expect getting what we deserve rather than what we want. So therefore what we deserve is there to teach us. If you steal, you get at bad reaction. Therefore, don't steal.

So for the karmi, he has stolen and whether he repents or not, the result comes. If he repents, he may not do it again, therefore he will only be in jail once. But the result comes. For the devotee then if they repent, then they don't need to go to jail. So that's why Krishna can remove. Or, it may be, you are supposed to get that 100 million, but by getting it you will give up devotional service, so Krishna won't give it to you. In other words, if what you want is favorable for Krishna consciousness and what you deserve you've already learned, then the thing is gonna be adjusted. Does that make sense? So it's not some foreign strange thing, it's just part of the creation. You eat, you go to the toilet. Where is my independence, why do I have to go to the toilet? You know, why all this pre-destiny? I drank one liter of water, I have to go to pass one liter of water. [Laughter] Sorry. Yeah?

Prabhu: I just want to ask also that does it depend on the reader? Or it...

HH BVPS Maharaja: Does it depend on the reader?

Prabhu: Yeah. The expertise of the reader.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Very dangerous question. [Laughter]

Prabhu: You want me to go outside?

HH BVPS Maharaja: [Laughter] No, no, no, not that... [indistinct 02:06:23] another one

Prabhu: So he foretells something, but it doesn't happen, so...

HH BVPS Maharaja: So he foretells... Means, if an astrologer foretells something, it doesn't happen? The point is is, as we said, if Krishna adjusts it, He adjusts it.

Prabhu: And I also have a question, just in line of this. That usually I tell devotees, tell people, I can tell them that it's going to be bad or good because it's up to them, how are they gonna live up to it.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah.

Prabhu: I can only tell if it is it going to be easy or difficult, and it always happens, it's a hundred percent always happens.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah, yeah. So...

Prabhu: [Indistinct 02:07:08] understanding?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Yeah. It's a very important point. The chart tells you the situation you are going to be in. It doesn't tell what are you gonna do with it. In other words, you could take it very mundanely and either be very happy or very unhappy. Or you can take it Krishna consciously. Does that make sense? And not be disturbed.

Like it may say, you are going to get sick. So depends, Krishna makes you sick or not, that's up to Him. That's not the point. The point is, are you gonna remain Krishna conscious when you are sick or you are not? Do you understand? And the degree, it's, means like what [indistinct 02:08:30] said, it's always going to be there. Means, no, the result will be there, but the degree, that's what's adjustable. Prabhupada says, you should have had your arm cut off, but you get a little nick on your finger. But the nick comes, now how you deal with it, that's up to you. Does that make sense? So generally only a more advanced, then you might find, nothing comes. But it may come. You know what I am saying? Because the example they will set by going through that difficulty will then be beneficial for others. Does that make sense? In other words, the more advanced you are, there may be no need for any reaction, because you've already learned, but by going through that reaction, it sets good example for others. You know what I am saying? Therefore people end up on crosses and other stuff like that, they don't need to, but it happens. Does that make sense?

The neophyte then, if by removing it it will make them more Krishna conscious, Krishna may do it, or by having it it that will make them more Krishna conscious, then He will leave it. Of course, one has to be sincere. Maybe you are insincere, you are looking for an opportunity to leave, and so therefore Krishna just leaves the karma. And then when the accident happens, it "Well, how did Krishna allow this to happen? I am His devotee." Does that make sense? These things, they are complex, it's the living entity is an individual and God is independent. So therefore Krishna only responds to the approach of the devotee.

Prabhu: There is one more point. I have even heard that the spiritual master can also adjust the horoscope or the...

HH BVPS Maharaja: The spiritual master can adjust the horoscope? [Laughter] And while he adjusts it then he notes changes. No, by good will of senior Vaishnavas then Krishna's mercy follows that. Krishna's mercy follows the will of the madhyama adhikaris. Right? In other words, those who preach, Krishna's mercy follows that. Does that make sense? So, therefore still Krishna does the... Just like Krishna is Mukunda, Krishna liberates you, but when Radharani recommends you, then you get liberated. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: Is there an attitude that's favorable to visiting an astrologer and an attitude that's unfavorable?

HH BVPS Maharaja: Is there a favorable... Attitude favorable or unfavorable for approaching an astrologer? I would expect, big smiles and lots of money would be appreciated. [Laughter] But definitely, no money would be quite unfavorable. Means, there must be a respect for the science and then there must be respect according to their knowledge and practical ability of the individual. If you don't respect the person, go to another person that you do respect. If you don't respect the science, don't go to anybody. Is that okay?

What time is it?

Mataji: Three to five.

HH BVPS Maharaja: Three 'o five. Okay, it's 3 o'5. Okay, so then we'll end here. Jaya ho!

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya! Samaveta-bhakta-vrinda ki jaya! Jaya Nitai-Gaura-premanande Hari Haribol!

Prabhu: His Holiness Bhaktividya Purna Maharaja ki jaya!

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