HH BVPS Mahārāja: The point is is, but what is the Ultimate Managerial Authority? Okay, so what is that for? What is the duty of the Ultimate Managerial Authority? Okay, we are establishing that GBC is Ultimate Managerial Authority, Prabhupāda said that. Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura established it, he is the one who came up with the concept and the name. Governing Body Commission, that name comes from Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura. So it's already been established. So again, we don't have to work it out because we have to understand, the strategy also shows details of application that are preferred by the the Lord and the Ācāryas, right? And so, then we will see, is that in there... So what exactly does that mean? Okay, Ultimate Managerial Authority, what does that mean? You know, 'ultimate managers,' okay, great. Well, that's the thing is, well, one, are you actually a good manager? Right? What have you managed in your life? What big projects, what things, how have you developed and made it, and opened more temples and more devotees and, you know, more books and all those kind-of things? And if you have, okay, you can say you are a good manager, okay. So what does an 'ultimate manager' do? So that's now, this is where the problem comes. Is now we are taking that management is the top, then how is the goal of love for God the top? So is it love of GBC or love of God? You know what I'm saying? Because you see, on the material platform that whenever you have a system that takes the management principle and elevates it to the top, they write books about this. '1984' is about this. 'Animal Farm' is about this. All these different things that show, when you take something and remove God from it and then try to establish that system as the top. I mean that was going on, Prabhupāda gives that example in Russia, 'Oh there is no God. Go ahead, pray for bread!' And the people pray for bread. 'Where is your bread? No bread. Pray to us! 'Oh, please give us bread!' 'Here is your bread! See, we are better than God.'

So that principle has always been there in history, right? Is that management tries to take the top and they become the thing as opposed to, there is already a strategy there, and they are servants of the strategy. So, in other words, the GBC, their duty is seeing to the establishment that everyone understands and is practicing the strategy. That's why it is the ultimate, because the strategy is the ultimate. And then the operational, that is your temple president, or your farm project leader, or restaurant head, or whatever it is that is running there on its own in the pursuance of making people Kṛṣṇa conscious. So their business is to see, is this temple president Kṛṣṇa conscious? Is he making his people Kṛṣṇa conscious? Is he functioning how Prabhupāda said people should become Kṛṣṇa conscious. If he is, that's great. And if he is not then that has to be addressed, and how can he become more Kṛṣṇa conscious, how can you institute more Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Because we are a society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not the international society for, you know, appreciating ultimate managerial authority, that's not what we are. It's about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So one has to understand, is the GBC is the highest leadership because it establishes the strategy that is there in people's practical life. Strategy is already done, we don't have to work it out. And the same way is, the temple president, why is he the head of the operational? Because he sees that all the tactical and technical things in his temple, everyone is doing it so that the temple is attaining its purpose in strategy. So that means the individual has to be God conscious and the society itself as a whole is seeing that people are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. So the individual is becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, working with other Kṛṣṇa conscious people to help others become Kṛṣṇa conscious. And the organization is being done in such a way that all individuals can work together to be Kṛṣṇa conscious and move forward. So that balance, then you see, that's why GBC is the top. That's what it means by Ultimate Managerial Authority. Because management happens at the operational level, not at the strategic level. Not that they are not managing their paper and figuring out where the phone is and knowing how to push the buttons, you know. The point is is that that is, the strategy is the ultimate authority of managers, that's their position. If they take it that, 'No, we are the managers that manage everything,' that means they don't understand what the position is. In the same way as the temple president, he is there, he is the managerial authority in his area, but he has to see that it's in line with the strategy, and that's what the GBC is there for, to see that you are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious as a temple leader and you are making everybody else in your responsibility Kṛṣṇa conscious. So that's why it's there. Like you see the King, and then there is the Rāja Guru. They are there to make sure you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's what they are for. Bhīṣmadeva is there trying to make Dhritarāṣṭra Kṛṣṇa conscious. It's not working out because he is just downright demon. But that is his job, he is there to give advice and those things on that. He doesn't manage it, the manager decides. So as long as the manager is Kṛṣṇa conscious and doing things in a Kṛṣṇa conscious way as Prabhupāda said, and you can discuss about these things, then everything is right. It is not the GBC's business to manage the temple because that's why you have a president. Otherwise, it would be very easy. GBC can run, manage all the temples, and all the temple presidents can go out and do book distribution and Harināma and something else and not worry about life, and let the GBCs manage it. But they can't put in a new temple president because no, because they are the manager.

So it has to be understood, is this strategic planning is a very exact science. It's not a speculation, it's not, 'Well, some do like that, others do...' No. We are not talking about this speculative method. We are talking about how Kṛṣṇa has given the system and how Prabhupāda  gave it to us. It's philosophy, you can describe it like that. If you work off the corporate books, they don't know what they are talking about. All they know is they want to make profit, that's all. We want people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and go back to Godhead. Slightly different training. Because what is the training? For us then the training means everybody has to be trained in the principles given in the strategy. Then you as an organization, you have to find where you fit within the operational and where is your position in that and cooperate together within that operation, right? So, you are going back to Godhead and you are helping the whole system take others back to Godhead. But you are trained in the strategy. In the corporate model who is trained in what making money is? No, you are simply trained in tactical and technical elements, what to do and that's it. And the guys on top, they know how to make money and they just get you to help them. Very different model. So, basically, the corporate model as it is has zero value for us. You know, a few of the little points on how they organize some of the tactical and technical things and see that people are doing, and there is the guy on the floor managing and this. But Prabhupāda already gave that. He already gave the president, the secretary, the treasurer, the temple commander. There is the Saṅkīrtana leader, there is the head pūjārī. Like that, these are already established back in the 1960s, 1970s. So that already makes things work. So you already have these things in place, we simply have to follow and use our intelligence how to do it nicely. It's just like you study, let's say you are going to teach Bhagavad-gītā. You study Gītā, you teach Gītā and how it has been given, As It Is, then you are a good teacher. Not that I have to make up verses and make up my own philosophies - that's useless. So is that okay? That's clear?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: It's just... In other words, it's a corporate model in that everybody has a job.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: If you are part of the system, right? Prabhupāda gave, it was 24 GBC to run the world, right, the whole globe. Then the thing is is, as time goes and there is more you can have a few more, but the point is is, if all you are doing is seeing to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is the most important element... In other words, if the temple is successful, plenty of money, so many devotees, but no one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, what's the point? Right?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: But if you have one devotee and they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's already a success. And now, if it can become two, can become four, can become eight, then it's getting better. So that means, you go in, you see these things, you do. And so then  where is the big administrative load? Where is the economic load for a GBC? They simply have to be able to have enough money to move around. But the thing is is, they are the ones that are starting new temples. Prabhupāda says, their duty is the same as the sannyāsīs, so they're the ones going, opening new projects and this and that. So they have their own men, they have their own scene, they have their own money. So this idea is, 'No, we are a government, we are going to tax.' But if they are a government, who are their brāhmanas who are keeping them in line? Okay, you are the government, you tax the temples, great. Who is keeping you in line? Because administration is never the top. Of course, it is an Anglo-Saxon thing, right? The Anglo-Saxon, how did it work out with Henry VIII? Right? Henry VIII is a king and the Pope in Rome is the boss. He runs his country, but he has to run his country according to Catholic principles. And if he doesn't do it, then they will come and give him trouble, right?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So that's the principles of that are working. We are not talking about the corruptness that of these... What were those guys called? The Borgias. They kind-of took over because everybody figured out that the Pope is the most powerful, so let's become the Pope, even though they are not qualified. You know, he has the power, he has the money he has the men. So whatever it is, but the point is, the principle is there. So what was his solution? Kick out the Pope, and he becomes head of state and head of the church. So is that not a similar thing?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So now, if you are going to say, okay, great, you are doing this, you are going to tax all these things, that temple is putting in this much money. How much of that is it getting back? How much is he getting back in facilities? Just like, okay, you are a man on the road, right, you are driving your car, you come up to the toll station, you put your 10 Euros in there, you drive down what? This little dirt road with all kinds of potholes in it? And trees lying across the road, and bears coming out and trying to get things, to get you, give you stuff to eat and that? Is that what you paid 10 Euros for? No. You paid 10 Euros for a six lane fabulous highway that is so smooth you could play billiards on it. And it's perfectly maintained, that's what you are paying. So the whole point is is, if you are being taxed, what is it that you are getting back from that? You are just paying for some guy to do something in some place that may have nothing to do with you. He is a legal consultant, but the law in every region and in every state, and even sometimes even area is completely different. Just because you know American law, doesn't mean you know European law and that. You may know the process, you talk to this one or that one, but the point is is, those are administrative. That the region should do. If there is a need of it, the region where they have common legal things, those temples get together and, 'Okay, we have a devotee, he used to be a lawyer, he can give advice for anyone in the zone.' He stays at your temple, he is helping with you, but if another temple needs, they send him a ticket, he goes there and spends whatever it is, some weeks, tells them what to do, and then he comes back. So how does that... Why do you need... You don't need to be taxed for that.

In other words, the GBC level is above the tax scene. It starts at the operational that you have administration. GBC is not an administration. If it is, okay, but what is above administration? Administration is never the top. Brāhmanas are at the top. So they are always, 'Oh, what are we?' you know, like this and that. They are brāhmanas. They don't want to be brāhmanas because then you don't have the control and the money. But if you say, 'Okay, we are kṣatriyas,' but then you have brāhmanas above you, and so we don't want that, and we still don't have the money. Okay, well, 'We are vaiśyas, we got the money but then we are controlled by the kṣatriyas, and we have brāhmanas above that. So, therefore, you know, we don't accept Varṇāśrama, you know, we are devotees. We do vaiśya stuff here, we do kṣatriya stuff there and that. And isn't it fabulous and aren't we wonderful?' But what does that have to do with reality? Who in the material world functions like that?

So the whole point is is, just like you have these big corporations where there is a guy, there is a founder, he is sitting on the top. He has a CEO who is running the thing, and he just sees that it is going in the right direction. He will discuss with him, he will have these things, but the guy says, 'We have to do this to make the profit there,' and if it is in line with the profits he wants to do, it goes. He doesn't run the thing himself. But without him the others don't know what to do. So, without the GBC how do you know if you are being Kṛṣṇa conscious? You get so absorbed in your management and this and that, and so many things, and they are all nice Kṛṣṇa conscious stuff. But he might be able to point out how you could be more Kṛṣṇa conscious. Are you considering these things? Like you are getting into the festival, but the temple is falling apart. Like I remember, in Kolkata, the temple president there. Prabhupāda happened to come there and I think it was around Janmāṣṭamī. And Prabhupāda was there a few days. And after some days he called the president into his room and and asked him, 'Are you chanting your rounds?' Because he saw, he would get up in the morning late because he would be out late meeting people and raising money, and then get up, eat something and immediately go out, and then he would come back at 11 o'clock at night. So after a few days Prabhupāda called him and said, 'Are you chanting your rounds?' And he said, 'No, because I am doing the important thing of collecting money, so we can have a big Janmāṣṭamī program because it's preaching.' And Prabhupāda's point was, 'If you are not chanting your rounds what's the point of you being involved in that? Because if you are not advancing yourself personally, how are you going to make anybody else Kṛṣṇa conscious?' Seeing that he is the leader there, right? We are not talking about a congregational member who is not chanting, he comes in and he helps and he organizes something, and all that, he is being absorbed. But he is the leader. So Prabhupāda was acting in that capacity as the GBC. That's the important thing. Because that's the point, is the advantage of... There is a saying in management, 'You can't see the forest for the trees.' You are so focused on a particular tree, you can't see all the trees and the whole program, so that's what the GBC is there for, to see that you see the tree, but you can still see the forest.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: And that is most important. But because it doesn't deal with man or money or power, then it is thought, 'Oh, this is not the top.' But that's not how vaiṣṇavas think. Kṛṣṇa isn't the top. He is sitting in your heart, He tells you what to do, but He leaves it up to you to do it. It's like Kṛṣṇa went on that peace mission for Yudhiṣṭhira, it's already been... Duryodhana has already said, 'No peace, it's going to... We are not giving anything back.' But Kṛṣṇa said, 'I will go Myself,' and they will say, 'But You already know what they want.' Kṛṣṇa said, 'No, but as God I give them their independence. I'm going to go there, present everything, and then they can choose. And when they have chosen, and whatever they choose, that's what we will have. If they choose peace, we will have peace, if they choose war, we will have war.'

So it's always this balance. So that's the whole point of the strategic planning, is that you have to know what's what and how each one balances with the other. Otherwise then you overdo one thing and all this and that, then, you know, then what? So that's what happens. It's like, 'No, the head is the most important.' 'Yeah, but without the body and all that. Someone is going to hit you in the head with the baseball bat, so the arm is the most important.' Stomach says, 'You know, well...'  [Indistinct] say, 'Yeah, but without the legs you can't move around, so we are the most important.' Then the stomach will say, 'Yeah, but if I don't distribute energy to everybody, then that...' So, therefore, the head should work out how to get food, the hand should be giving the food, and the legs should be running around to get food because the stomach is the most important, right? That is the corporate model.

So that is why it is a descending process. It is not how we want it to be, it's how it already is, that already has been and always will be. In other words, it's what is the Absolute Truth? This is not just, 'Oh, just words, we are just doing some practical...' No, but practical, if it is not in line with the spiritual philosophy... So that's the thing is, many will think, 'Oh, well, philosophy, that's not practical.' No it is a science. That means it can be applied. If you don't apply it, of course, then you don't get the benefit. But that is what makes the difference between science and art. Art is just how it is applied, science is why it is applied, what it affects, how it works. So Prabhupāda has given us the whole science. That's why he says, 'The Complete Science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.' He has given that. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So we simply have to apply it, and that itself will take us all of our effort and all of our endeavor. All of our endeavor. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja:So we have to understand what's what. Then, once we understand, then everybody can go ahead and work. Because basically everybody that is involved in the system today, in our leadership in the movement, are qualified to do their actual positions, right? It's just they have to do that and not something else. So the GBC are qualified to be GBC. You think about them, they are all like spiritual leaders. You think of them, many of them as sādhus. That they are the best at, so that's what they should be doing. And then those who are dealing on the temple levels and all that, these are your best managers in the movement. Of thousands, hundreds and thousands of devotees, they are the ones that can lead in that, they know how to do this. And then somebody is a pūjārī, or a saṅkīrtana leader and this and that, they know how to do that on that practical level, and they are the best. Because it was before, people used to discuss that. You know saṅkīrtana is going on in this temple, saṅkīrtana is going on in that temple, that temple is getting really good results, then they would discuss with all the other temples. You don't have to have a saṅkīrtana minister. Because what is happening is, all the jobs that the GBC should do, they are making into ministries. But the GBC is there, he has to... Are they going out on harināma? Are they doing these things? You know, it's not rocket science. You know what I am saying?

Means, if you want to discuss management, it is a big book, this fat. But if you have someone who themselves is a manager, he says, 'We have a temple here. We have devotees. We want to do this and that. This is what we are trying to do.' He will get in there, figure out what man, who can do what, how much money do we have and what we could do today. And then like this, and the plan after, you know, one year this, and after five years that. It doesn't take [indistinct]. That's the point. We preach and everybody comes from every background. So we have leaders coming from wherever they are coming, and they can lead. But there needs to be training. Training not in not in details of management - that you learn from a manager. Like if you want yogurt, you want to make yogurt, where do you get it from? Yogurt, right? But you don't get it from something else, right? So the whole thing is is, what is being created here with all these things is a bureaucracy. A bureaucracy assists administrative leadership. In other words, bureaucracy is lower than leadership in administration. And above leadership and administration is that brāhminical feature of being Kṛṣṇa conscious. Does that make sense? So that means that bureaucracy is lower. And so, that's the difficulty, is when one is trying to make the bureaucracy the top, that's straight 'Animal Farm.' Remember, it was a a group of pigs that got rid of one farmer, and then you had 20-30 pigs. Now they become the Bureau.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, but the thing is is, you have to know how bureaucracy works. Bureaucracy is not above the temple presidents. It's below the GBC. In other words, they may have things that they study and work out, and they want them to do stuff like that. You know, like how many angels can dance on the head of the pin, or whatever it is. Then they give that information to the GBC, the GBC is the one that interacts with the temple president. Otherwise, they have to have the people... It's, okay, we can take a difference in there that they want to do it like this, great. How did, when Prabhupāda made the original GBC and there were 24 GBC... It first started with 12 and it went up to 24. Now on that GBC you had a minister, right? Jagadīśa Prabhu was the minister of education, right? He was a GBC, he wasn't a bureaucrat below the GBC. Ministers, we want to do...[indistinct] of the GBC, you want somebody to specialize in an area, great. But they all have to have the qualification of a GBC man, have the weight, have the voting power. In other words, if they are coming to your temple to deal with you on a bureaucratic element on behalf of the GBC, and you don't see the GBC, where is the spiritual input that the GBC is for? Because the point is is, there is a good chance that that bureaucrat knows less about the situation than the local man who is managing them. Are they taking old temple presidents that have been presidents for 20-30 years and making them the bureaucrat? Or they are taking somebody who is good at sitting behind a computer?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So what is his authority over someone who can manage? So, in other words, you see is that the system won't work because it is taking the worst from everything. Means, even if you want to take the corporate, okay. You want to take the corporate, you have the board of directors, right? But when you have the board of directors, you also have the shareholders. So that means, the shareholders can vote people out of the board. So if they want to go corporate, that means, in a temple all the devotees can vote whether they want that GBC or not or that bureaucrat or not. If they want to go... But they don't want to go, then, 'No, no, no, no, you know, we have to have the absolute authority...' Then work on absolute principles. That means, it starts from the top, it is spiritual. Then it comes down into administrative. Because that is the whole point. Temple presidents, they have a bureaucracy, that's why you have a secretary and you have a treasurer. That's your bureaucrats, right? They may be leaders, but they have guys under them. The cashier in this, they don't know how money works. And so, he said, 'a treasurer' not 'an accountant.' An accountant knows how to keep the books, that's it. He doesn't know any bigger than that, how money works. Treasurer has to know how money works. Does that make sense?

So, in other words, the bureaucracy is within the temples and between temples in the zone, they can share that bureaucratic understanding. Before the temples used to share, someone knew something really good, then that person went and shared with others and showed them how to do. If it is really small, he comes, does it himself, and if it is bigger he shows somebody how they can do it. And then with time now you have two people who can do that. So you see, it is a very straightforward system. This other thing... How many people... So, it's just like this. Okay, let's say, just take in America, right, you had your executive board, like that, and you have some other things that were taking care of things. Then something, a problem is there, so they make another committee to watch that and take care of something else. And now, let us say, there is a crime scene. Three, four, five different government boards show up and say that they are in charge here. The local police is there, and he says, 'Okay, this is my seat, you know, this is my city, and so I'm in charge of this crime.' Then the state police comes on, says, 'No, no, this is too big for you, the state police are taking over this. You are just a local city police.' Then you are going to have, 'No, no this is big, this is the federal level. Now it's the national thing, and so we are in charge.' Then the next guy comes along, says, 'No, I am the...' [break in recording] (..)

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Jaya! Yes, West Bengal here [indistinct] So that means, here it goes off. Okay.

Yes, so, Narakṛti, is that clear how it should be? Because, like you said, even you try these other things, how are they going to maintain that? They'll make a point, 'What governance in the world doesn't have a budget?' this and that. But they are a governance of brāhmanas. Have you ever heard that at Rādhākuṇḍa, when all the senior vaiṣṇavas would get together... Because that would be the original GBC, and they had a budget? You know what I am saying? That is not the important thing. So that's the point, is who is listed in our paraṁparā, those were all the presidents of the Viśva-vaiṣṇava Rāja-sabhā. So it started with Rūpa Gosvāmī, then came down to Jīva Gosvāmī, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī, then Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura, Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, Jagannātha Dāsa Bābājī, Bhaktiviṇoda Ṭhākura... This is how it came, they were the head of the thing. Just like we have a GBC, there is a head. But the point is is, what are they doing? Whatever they like? No, what Lord Caitanya gave.

So, it is very important to understand, these things are already in place. Because the point is is, this bureaucracy... Means, whatever the GBC, they are not doing, if they are thinking they are managers, then they need all these people to do the management for them, why aren't they managing it? Right? They are doing it for them, and so it sounds very nice if you're enamored by Capitol Hill. But the point is is, because of the bureaucracy it gets stuck, and what is there? There is also the judicial. Does... Remember, if you are going to use this democratic model, like you said before, if you want to use the corporate model, then you have shareholders above you, right? And if you want to use the governmental model, the whole thing is is, the bureaucracy is one of three. Then you have the executive, and then you have the judicial. And since we don't run by a single ācārya, therefore then they have to see, is that they have to be doing... That's the whole point, they are doing these things. So the bureaucratic then, these are just so no one has so much power. But at the same time they are being used to force power. So the thing is is, they'll always have a difficulty using these models because they are not clearly any one model. It's just you take what little bit sounds good and impresses you from whatever. But the point is, descending, it is already there, you see how it comes down to you. Then once it gets to you, where do I fit in? Does that make sense? Yes? No? Any good?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, in other words, what we are discussing here doesn't change the position or authority of GBC. It actually puts them again in a position of authority that they lost in 1987, right? In other words, by the maneuvers that went on in 1987 they changed the GBC, but in the process they lost the position of authority. No one was an authority anymore, right? And so, that is the whole point that this gives them that authority that they are supposed to have, that is given by the sampradāya, as well as it gives to the presidents their authority. It gives to the temple officers their authority. And at the same time, it gives the individual their position, and so they see the whole thing together, and so they can function within it.

So that is the thing, that is the perfection of the Vedic system: it works for everyone. Otherwise, capitalism only works for the capitalists, for everybody else it doesn't really work. Socialism only works for the śūdras, it doesn't work for anyone else. Dictatorship only works for that administrator, it doesn't work for anyone else. And anarchy doesn't work for anybody, nobody gets benefit.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So the Vedic system then everybody gets the benefit because everybody knows what they do and where they are. And this whole thing of trying to pick and choose, 'Well, you know, I want the respect of the the brāhmana and all that, but I want the administrative authority of the kṣatriya, and I want all the money of the vaiśya, but at the same time I want that kind-of like not so... You know, the standards are not so much expected, so that I can kind-of whimsically do whatever I feel like, like a śūdra. And I don't have responsibility like the brahmacārī, it's someone else's thing, but I am completely independent, I do whatever I like in the way of my facilities and that, as a gṛhasṭha. But I have that senior position and I can get right into the details of the gossip and all that and control that as a vānaprastha, but at the same time I have that respect and worship and aloof authority of the sannyāsīs. Now, doesn't that sound perfect?' Yeah. So that's the point, if you take that approach, you will always fail. It's God's kingdom, not ours.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So this idea, 'Well, Prabhupāda is from the spiritual world, he doesn't know what goes on here,' like that, you know, Hamilton said stuff like that, it's very popular. God, they deified God.'And Prabhupāda like this, and the ācāryas, they are spiritual, we don't want it like that... But, you know, we are here, we run here.' No. Every atom is Kṛṣṇa and in every atom is Kṛṣṇa.