His Holiness Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Svāmī Mahārāja: That's just one thing I didn't think about when Mātājī asked the question, is she might not be here when we got to the part. [Laughter]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: See, because in here there is going to be questions here, okay. We see here, 'The Lord does not take seriously an accidental falldown.' But now, there is a wide range of the definition of 'accidental.' If someone thought about it then it is not accidental. You know, it just had to have happened. But the point is is, accidental means, that is not your determination, that is not the direction you want to go. You are absorbed in devotional service, but you may get distracted. But that distraction does not become more prominent than the devotional element. That is accidental. If the person decides, 'No, I want to really go after this and this is more important than my devotional practices,' then that you could say, that is not accidental, because now it is determined. One says, 'Oh, but it has been going on for six months, so that is not accidental.' No, falldown is one thing, whether it is for one moment or for six months, what does it matter? It is one thing, so it is one element. So, it is just a matter of knowing what is the mood of it. So that then has to be defined. So this is what is going to come up here, Viśvanātha will bring out so many things.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: 'Oh, he did this.' So, 'No, we should deal with him, he is a brāhmana.' 'No, but if he did this he can’t be a brāhmana.' If that is his natural state, yes. But if that is a state where that is not his plan, it happens, then that is, still one is brāhminical. Do you understand? One has to see. In other words, working in that, that is one thing. But then if dealing with it, then he understands the problem, then that is another thing. So one has to be very fine.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, Kṛṣṇa is speaking here. How is this? How would he be a devotee? Right? Because he did this, whatever. So he is supposed to be respected because of his devotee qualities. Did his devotee qualities go away? Because we say, 'He is a brāhmana. So now he did this, he is not a brāhmana,' what did he do wrong? He didn’t do ācamana? He didn’t wash his feet? What didn't he do? What is the problem? Where is the falldown?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Forgot Kṛṣṇa, yeah, no, I am saying, that is the essential, forgot Kṛṣṇa. But in which? In varṇa or āśrama?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Generally speaking, that we are worried about is āśrama. If someone is varṇa-saṅkara, we couldn’t care less. Āśrama-saṅkara, we are not going to tolerate one bit of this. He is a brāhmana and he is out driving a truck or something like that, that’s cool. I know so many places where that is a... The guy who does all the yajñas and all the festivals for the temple drives a truck, I mean, one of these 22-wheel trucks, not just a little delivery van. So, it is not an uncommon thing. So, we never worry about things like this.

All we worry about is something that is connected with our so-called morality, our standard of ethic. The same person will go, 'Oh, he did this and he had this interaction with a woman, this is very bad, this can't be had, he can’t be in this position, has to be removed,' and this and that. But they are the same person that will support divorce. So what is their platform of consistency? What decides what will be accomplished? That is the point, that is mental speculation. That’s why it is said, mano-ratha, means it’s just the mind, it just goes wherever it likes. And wherever it goes we will say that is good, whatever path their mind takes we will say that is good. If your mind is going on that path then you have a friendship, if it is not, 'Hey, we have nothing to do... Nothing in common.' So this is a problem.

So here is, how do you do? Then Kṛṣṇa is saying, it's 'My order is the authority.' It is Kṛṣṇa’s decision. So here He is taking, Prabhupāda is saying,

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Because the chanting is the process. The point is is that here according to the Vedas there are certain regulations. So what we are saying here is, we are taking the Vedic regulations as the basic standard, then you are going beyond that to the actual real purification as the Holy Name. Does Prabhupāda mention here a modern made-up speculative process of purification? No, so that doesn’t even count. So if Vedic prāyaścitta doesn’t have any standing, why would modern? It is like saying, 'As devotees we see beyond material wealth and all that, so, even for us a big pile of gold isn’t important. It is devotion to Kṛṣṇa.' And then we will go, 'Yes, that is important. But this little pile of broken glass over here, now, that’s really valuable!' In other words, we will leave the Vedic for the devotional, but we won’t leave the modern, that’s really got substance! Do you understand? It is just total illusion. It is basically just, it is conditioning, what it is. It is just, we are used to certain way of thinking and doing, and so we just fall into that habit. So that's why hearing, chanting and good association are important, otherwise it won’t work out. Because the authority is Kṛṣṇa. So it’s either directly within devotional service, or indirectly through the Vedic injunctions. There is no process that purification within the concept of illusion purifies. It would be like he is standing in the sewer, 'Oh, you didn’t say ācamana! This is nonsense!' What has that got to do? It is not going to work. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So this is the question, so, okay. So now we can accept, okay, he has bad conduct, how is he a devotee? But Kṛṣṇa says, he is respected as a devotee because of his devotee qualities. That is Kṛṣṇa’s command. He is not just saying, 'This is how I like it.' This is a command. If you don’t respect like that, it is an offence. 'My order is the authority.' He says, 'Because I said it, therefore.' I guess, that's where Ramses got it from. So now, the question comes, 'Okay, so then, because of his devotee qualities, that's where... That is the key, okay, now I got that. So that means, how much he is worshiping You, then we look at that. But how much he is involved in māyā, then he is that,' right? In other words, it is said, when he commits adultery, so pull out the main one. Because anything else, you know, who really cares? Then Kṛṣṇa says,

HH BVPS Mahārāja: In other words, that service is there. Means, I have done the activity... If activity is going on you might be careful of how they are engaged. But if activity stopped, what is the problem? And they are determined that 'I will go on, whatever is the result of my previous activities, let me suffer that, that’s fine, but I will continue to do my service.' So what will be the purifying thing?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Service. Not, you know, no kīrtana, no class, no position, no... So the point is is, one is engaged in service, dedicated worship of Kṛṣṇa, according to your nature. This is the difference that we see, Prabhupāda, if someone had a problem, he kept them in their position. He corrected them, so they weren’t active in their problem area by giving them good association and instruction, but he would keep them in their position, because body, mind, and words are to be engaged in Kṛṣṇa’s service, that is Kṛṣṇa’s expectation. So if you are not allowed to perform your activities of your duty, how will you be engaged? Do you understand? So that means, it is not an understanding of devotional service. It is simply a concept of mundane morality and justice. And it is not even real morality and justice. Because there will be a consistency. Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. No, he would have a serious problem, so he would give sannyāsa. So if they were sannyāsa, then he would say, 'Okay, you are a sannyāsī, you fell down with this woman. So do you now see that "Okay, that was foolish, but I want to continue as a sannyāsī, that is my service, that's where I will be best engaged," or you want to marry this girl or marry somebody and then continue doing the same service of preaching?' Because devotional service is the only prāyaścitta. See, the thing is, we are saying, 'Oh, but that is a different situation.' No, prāyaścitta doesn’t work. It just doesn't work. Let's say... 'No, it's you are meditating upon...' Why do you want to do that? 'So they can meditate upon what they did wrong.' So is that what the meditation is? Kṛṣṇa says here, 'No, you should not see his bad qualities at all.' 'But he should see them. I don’t have to see it, because he is seeing them.' You know what I am saying? By meditating upon bad qualities what do you develop? Bad qualities. So the thing is, what is wrong with criticizing devotees, what is the problem? What element of the devotee are you associating with? Their bad qualities. So what do you develop? Bad qualities. So now, if the person has done something wrong and he meditates on his bad qualities, what will he develop? Bad qualities. It is very straightforward. So one may say, 'Oh, but devotees in general won't accept this.' So if people are in māyā, are we supposed to say, 'Okay, that is the standard. Everybody is in māyā, so, therefore, what can we do? We just have to roll with whichever way the wind is blowing, on the favorable winds of the vox populi of the modern Western culture? So it is really weird, really weird. Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Because if they said something small, then you would say, 'Oh, he did a small thing, okay, well, let it go. But he did something really bad.'

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. What is the limit you can go to? What is the worst sin you can commit? Killing a brāhmana, that is the worst. Is that what we are jumping up and down about? No, so that is the point. So it is not even the worst. But we are making it out to be the worst. That is because of the element of the puritanical. We impersonally... The impersonal concept is that the senses cannot be engaged with the sense objects and be religious. That is our flaw. We can’t understand that senses and the sense objects can be engaged religiously. But the point is is, you may get distracted by it. Why would you do it? Why would you be involved if there is more direct methods, unless there is some attachment or need? So that’s why it is a lower position. It creates so much trouble, avoidable trouble. Unavoidable - it’s cold now, you can’t avoid that. In the summer it will be hot. These cannot be avoided. But getting involved materially more and more in family life, in position and wealth - that can be avoided. So unless it is the nature and the duty, then that’s one thing, then you are doing it because of that, not because you need it. Because that’s the duty, that is your position you are in. You may have needed it before, that’s why you are in the position, but if you look at it now then that is a different thing. Does that make sense?

So here 'abominable' means whatever it is. Being in the material world is already abominable. We are taking it that being situated in the material world, and especially in the West - that is actually a nice situation, that is pretty good. It’s abominable to be in the material world. Prabhupāda said in Nectar of Devotion, in Kali-yuga the demigods don’t even come to earth to pass urine, let alone to come for a yajña. They are just not going to... It's like, you just don’t go there. But we are so proud that our position is so great and so special. This is illusion only. And then based on that, then within this abominable situation, then we make good and bad out of that. It’s like the pig and stool. It’s all stool. But he will say this stool is better than that stool. But it is all stool. 'No, but this one is better than that one. He ate that one, he is terrible. We are eating this one, this one is good.' No, but it’s all stool. Because they are not seeing the principle that is behind it.

The point is is, you are attached to religious sex life, that is still going to keep you in the material world. So it doesn’t matter religious or irreligious, if you are attached you are going to be here. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is beyond either of them. Is that okay?

(..)

So, his resolution is, 'It doesn't matter what, I am going to serve Kṛṣṇa.' So that should be what is encouraged. How they can be properly engaged and absorbed in good association and in direct devotional activities. In other words, if somebody has a problem in the indirect, then the solution is not to remove him from direct. The solution is to involve him more in direct.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Right? So these are the questions.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, in present tense, in Sanskrit, something that is just right now is considered present. Like you just wrote something, but now you are not, you just stopped writing. And I ask you, 'What you are doing?' What are you going to say? So he says, 'I am writing things.' You can't say, 'No, no, but you haven't been writing for three seconds, so you are not doing that, so what you are doing now?' No. Sanskrit, if it is immediately just now or here, it is what you are doing now. So it includes that whole range. So present is within your determination of your action, what is going on. Result may be...

So the point is is, it is very quickly he becomes righteous. How do you become righteous? Remembering Kṛṣṇa. That is the only way. Because we are saying, 'No, you can become righteous without that.' It is Kali-yuga. There is mlecchas and yavanas we are dealing with here. How do they become righteous? Only by devotional service, really. By standard of righteousness, who has it?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Not many, but that even will come from proper activity in past life. Because otherwise they don’t know why they are doing that. They just know they deal better doing like that. While the Veda, you can say why you are doing like that. So it’s just habit.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, what is exactly the point?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, but that is the point, it is the endeavor that is important. You know, you are trying to cook for Kṛṣṇa, may not be great, but you are trying. You know what I am saying? So you make that endeavor and with time it will get better, as long as you don't think 'However I cook that is good enough.' You are trying to improve, trying to develop. It is like, somebody is doing something and they are not doing it exactly right, and then you say, 'Well, like this...' 'No, but we have always done it like this.' But what does that... So what? It is a matter of what is correct, what will make progression. So these are just part of the elements. You do have a hierarchy because you have management, administration and all these different things, so there has to be a leadership and then those who are following. That is just natural. On the spiritual platform you have those who are leading and those who are following, it is always like that. You have the lead cow and so many other cows that lead. Kalpa-vṛkṣa trees and... There is leaders of the cowherd boys within... Mother Yaśodā is the leader of the parental rasa, Rādhārāṇī is the leader of the conjugal rasa. So you have leaders and those who are following, so that is natural, that's why it is servant of the servant. But one has to understand, it is one's service that one does this. It is not that...

We have a false idea of what it means to be on top, because we see here, Kṛṣṇa is on top, what does He say? As you surrender, He reciprocates. But if as you surrender then the other guy's false ego becomes greater and greater, that is not doing what Kṛṣṇa is doing. So if someone is surrendered more, he does more, he does distribute more books, so then you try to take care. So they will be inspired by this, you are going to India, you are getting some good association, so that works. But it is how you see it. If it is a matter of, 'Okay, if we offer this then they will work harder,' and all this - that is a businessman's kind-of thing. So it can be a beginning start. But generally speaking, we don't use those in the long run. No, but it doesn't mean that then we don't give anybody anything in reciprocation. But it means, our motive is not that because I am giving him this then I will get that. It is matter of, he is doing so many nice, so let me do something nice for him, so he sees like this, so this will be nice for him. Somewhere else it will be something else you are giving. Like you are giving an apartment or some facilities like that, or... 'You'll get dental,' or whatever it is. So, all these different things. Does that make sense? Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: It is how you say it. Means, pointing out something, how can you say it? How many ways could you say it?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, so the point is is, you have to pick the right one. In other words, you have to inspire. So that means, you have to pick the right one that would inspire them as an individual. So it is not just 'Well, I told him, I did my job and now it is up to him,' that is cheap, that is not taking responsibility.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, positive what they receive, but the point is, it has to be realistic for the position they are in. So it can't just be all just sentimental enthusiasm, has to be practical. Means, you are in this position, how to get from there to where you want to be? And that basically means just emphasizing the devotional element. The soul does not have to get somewhere. The soul just has to recognize who they are. We don't have to get to God, God is already there. But we have to understand. Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: But what does that mean, how he would have both at once? You know, on my hard drive, it's got 250 GB, and I am going to fill it all up with Prabhupāda's books, but at the same time... All 250 GB, with the ācāryas and all this, and collect them all until there is not one byte left. At the same time I am also going to fill it up with movies.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: But the point is is, means, you can go on and on like this, 'What if he has three? what if he has two and a half? What if one of them only works on half because the other half has been corrupted? Because the hard drive is corrupted, is it all right to put corrupted things on it? You know what I am saying? The point is is, how do you have determination for nonsense and Kṛṣṇa at the same time?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, you are involved in these things because of attachment, but it is not your determination. Do you understand? You may be involved in this sinful activity, but it is not your determination. Your determination is to serve Kṛṣṇa. If your determination is to be involved in the sinful activity, you are not going to be determined to serve Kṛṣṇa. It is one or the other. But Kṛṣṇa’s point is, as long as that focus is on Kṛṣṇa, then you are going to look at that aspect. Because that is substance, while the other is illusion. So very quickly the devotee, by remembering Him, then he will come out of that illusion, because it is by hearing the Holy Name. Instead of 'You can't lead any kīrtana,' it should be 'You are going to lead every kīrtana in the temple. Maṅgala-āratika, Guru-pūjā and evening āratika.' Then they are going to get purified. Then you are going to lead it good. [Laughter]. Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: And then he can't come back. Takes him ten years, and then he will come back...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Because they are not friends. See, friend means when things are good you are friend and when things are bad you are a friend. If you are only a friend when things are good you are not actually a very good friend. That’s the nīti, that is Dharma-śāstra. It is the śāstra that says like this. So, friendship is tested in adversity. If you still support even when they have trouble, that means there is friendship. And if you don’t, that means the friendship wasn’t really there.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, was not there. It wasn’t very deep, means there was, may have been something, but it was very shallow. Because shallow means it could be there and then go away. If there is some depth to it then it doesn’t matter what happens, it will work. So there is a concern. So before things will be more out in the open because there was more of that friendship, so everybody could have heard about it, but no one will feel bad about it. And everybody will be trying to support and give some direction. So it wasn’t the matter because everyone was truthful or this or that, no, because of the closeness. Now because no one is close, therefore it’s just based on the mundane quality of truth, that’s why it should be brought out. Because otherwise what am I going to talk about? Because if I have no relationship, why they should talk to me? Because technically, unless you are going to give some support, you are going to do something for them, there is no meaning to this 'truth.' You only require to be truthful with truthful persons. It is not a rule that you have to tell truth to liars. Do you understand? Truth is told to truthful people. So this idea, that 'No, but you have to tell us the truth.' Why does he have to tell the truth? Based on what? Are you going to do something for him? Means, as it is you don't do anything for him. Then if he does something wrong, then if he tells you the truth, then you are going to do something difficult for him. So what is the authority? Do you understand? Because we are talking about relationships. We have boiled them down to they are just positions, but the point is, it is relationship. Not positions. Is the mother and father just the authority in the house, or is it a relationship? You can say, legalistically, yeah, when there is a divorce and they fight over the kid, then it is a matter of just the husband and wife and parent and child, that's all. There is no relationship element. But in actuality the relationship in the family is based on that, not on position.

So the point is is, if one’s position in the society is simply because it is a position, it doesn’t mean you technically have the authority in people’s personal life. So if you are not going to take responsibility, then don’t deal with it, or just say 'You are not welcome here, go somewhere else.' That is also appropriate. The Vedic thing, if someone doesn’t work, you can tell him to go. But no punishment is administered. Because only if they accept your authority and all this and that, then you have a position of authority, an actual, means, responsible. Authority goes with responsibility. If you are not responsible, you are actually not an authority.

So it comes again down to this personal aspect. That’s why this is being brought out. Because we very nicely understand these other chapters. Even there it is a problem because mundane good, mundane bad we can understand. But how is it that when the mundane connects to the Lord it becomes spiritual, instead of material? So that is the subtlety within the karma-yoga and jñāna-yoga. But then in here the subtlety is in the personal dealings. It is still personal, but it is based on the spiritual, means, it is based on Kṛṣṇa’s preference, His authority, not ours. 'Oh, if we do like that... We would like to be broad-minded, but this yātrā won't accept...' So what? Because people have a non-devotional attitude, therefore we should take that as a standard? No, go preach to them. 'Oh, we can't do that.' Then don't make a decision, you don't have the authority to make a decision. The jīva belongs to Kṛṣṇa, not to you. Your position is one of management, not one of the soul. In other words, you are the temple president, someone else is a member in the temple. But because you are manager by conditioned nature and they are not, then they do what they do for Kṛṣṇa and you manage it. But as far as souls go, on the spiritual platform, that is equal. Then it is a matter of the devotion to Kṛṣṇa, not the position.

So generally someone who takes more responsibility advances quicker because they are doing so much for Kṛṣṇa, but it is not dependent upon that. So you can't say is that because you have a position you own the soul. Your business is to engage the soul, so what will be best for engaging the soul in Kṛṣṇa's service? So if they need some kind of punishment, that is okay, but it should increase their affection for Kṛṣṇa. If it is just punishment for punishment's sake, then you are only dealing with the quality. And even then, you are not actually dealing with Brahman because you don't see it in connection to Kṛṣṇa, so what does that mean? Brahman that is not seen in connection to Kṛṣṇa, what do we call that? Māyā, it is illusion. So how is illusion ever a remedy for anything? And even if thousands of people think like this, it still has no value, it is still illusion. That is the hard truth. Not whether the fact of whether somebody did something or not. That is within illusion. It's like you are looking at the tree in the water 'Is that a flower or is that the fruit,' you are pointing out things in illusion. But what we are saying here, it is a difference between the real tree and the reflection in the water. That is real discrimination. Okay? Oh, so it keeps going.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So the point is is, it is because of the position in... What is abominable, actually? The activity or the not thinking of Kṛṣṇa?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: That’s the real point. If you can somehow or another bring out the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you can see this kind of repentance will come. But the modern concept of repentance is to point how bad your activity is. Do you understand? It is very different. You point out the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it’s not Kṛṣṇa conscious. So it doesn’t matter what the activity is, it wasn’t Kṛṣṇa conscious. So, therefore, one will be repentant. But if one is trying to point out, 'Well, this activity is bad.' Okay, it is bad, but on what level? If you really want to look at it... Means, you are saying it is bad because of the devotee’s position, but the devotees accept the Vedic culture. So according to the Vedic culture, what is the position? You can’t then take it and then use some modern situation. It is a mix, it is just trying to get done, that’s why they say it is gossip. It is not actual real correction. Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: It is not that it accommodates, it has a position for them. Like people who can't keep their hands off other people's possessions, they live in the forest. You can only live in the city if you don't steal. If you steal you have to live in the forest.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, but within their position. So there has to be some standard. Because there is a natural standard, and then there is a variation from it. Like that. But who sets the standard? That is the point. Because if you don't accept that God sets the standard, then the difficulty comes is, how do you define? You have 8,400,000 species of life. So the human being can have consciousness of any one of them. So how will you set a standard? Because they will argue over these standards forever. Does that make sense? So even you see, depending on what it is, like in America, different states can have their own laws, as long as they don't go against the main laws of the nation. But like certain states, they allow abortion, certain don't. Certain, their marriage age, you can get married when you are young, certain states don't. Certain you have to go to school up to a certain age, not. So all these different things, what they consider legal. Some there is death penalty, some not. You know what I am saying? And that is within one country. And then they are going to say that they are going to come to an absolute standard based on just what is good? No, but the absolute standard what is good means Kṛṣṇa because He is good.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: See, these are these overlapping... Because you are dealing with people. What makes people people? These contradictory elements. Machine is not contradictory, right? You push the button and it does this, you push that button, it does that. It is not contradictory, but people are. So that, one has to be able to understand these kind-of elements. So as soon as one remembers Kṛṣṇa... When we start initiation, what is the first mantra we use?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, oṁ apavitraḥ pavitro vā, so just by remembering Viṣṇu one becomes purified. So the point is is, what is the real purification? Making them feel bad or making them remember Kṛṣṇa? When they remember Kṛṣṇa they will be purified, and then they will see that 'What I have been doing is not in connection with Kṛṣṇa,' so they will feel bad about that, but they are feeling bad because it is not for Kṛṣṇa. Not that it is bad. Do you understand? The one comes from the other. It is automatic. You eat, then hunger goes away, you don't have to focus on the hunger. So modern is saying, 'No, focus on the hunger.' So it doesn't work.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, Arjuna is saying all these things, 'Okay, so he becomes righteous, but what happens if he doesn't?' You know, like that.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: [Laughter] You don't want to make the Lord angry, right?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Because he is involved in devotional service, so the Lord in taking care. Yamarāja doesn’t take care of devotees. If someone is not in devotional service then Yamarāja takes care, pious or impious. If you are pious, then yamadūtas, they do a good job, escorting you there, you get a nice boat ride, everything is nice. But if you are not, then they know what to do also. But for the devotee, then they never see Yamarāja. Kṛṣṇa arranges what they do.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So this is Kṛṣṇa saying. Now, according to theirs then, we could say, 'Well, how come Kṛṣṇa doesn't make the arguers with sharp tongues respect this?' Do you understand? But that is their choice, and then you get the response of your activity.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: They are not active, but still Yamarāja is not dealing with them. No, they have done service, so...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, no, this is that someone is taking up the process.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, in other words, you are in contact with the bona fide process.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: No. I mean, even if they did, he is a nice guy. He is Dharma himself, so he can't be all bad. But if you are not religious, then he has got some good forms to... Okay. We will just read this and then end.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, he is not committed to this is what he wants to do as a platform. He may be, 'Oh, I want to do this,' but it is not that this is his determination. That subtlety has to be able to be understood.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: In other words, He is doing devotional service and he is not improving. Because the other one would improve. He may be engaged, distracted by sinful activities, but because of his determination in devotional service it is improving, it is becoming purified. He is moving forward. But this other person is just, 'No, it is fine to be like this.' So he is not going to move forward. So he is not very advanced.