His Holiness Bhakividyā Pūrṇa Svāmī: M.? Okay.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, yes. So, let us look at a progression here. So, you are going to have Śrīla Prabhupāda's teachings, which then the central points are the books, right? Because he is going to have conversations, he is going to have letters, you know, different things are happening, but the books are the main thing. Now, in those books there is a message, right? It's about developing pure devotion, pleasing Kṛṣṇa. As we mentioned, the strategy. Then you are going to have, therefore then people are going to be impressed by that and that will be your movement. Anybody who somehow or another in some way appreciates some aspect of Prabhupāda's teachings. You know, Prabhupāda's teachings, the devotees, like this, they appreciate it. Now, of those who appreciate, of the movement, those who associate together, that's called the society, right? And then within that society you are going to have individuals who are managing the places that are the legal entities of ISKCON. That those legal entities, like a temple, or some other aspect that belongs to the institution, that is there to set a central standard for the movement and, specifically, for the society.

So now, those who are, you could say... When you say 'ISKCON', ISKCON includes the whole thing. But as far as taking economic responsibility, you can only do that for those involved in the institution. You can't take for the community, right? You know, it's just like you have the church. It only takes care of those who are in the church as the institution. But it tries to minister to everybody in the community, so it tries to help everybody spiritually and emotionally, and all that in the community, but it doesn't say that they will, they can take care of the... What they call it? You know, the finances and that. That community is supposed to take care of. So we say it's failed, they failed as a community, not as an institution. That should be very clear.

So it's like so many of these big cities, how many hundreds of devotees are out there in the city of the community? So if somebody is having some financial problem, then, you know, if there are 500 people in the community, if everybody gave one euro, that's 500 euros. Somebody gives one euro a month, that's not a big problem for them. And even if you have a few people like that, a few ladies or this or that, they can't take care, some kids, even you give five or ten a month... But that's what community does. We talk community, but the question is, which orifice are they talking out of? So the whole point is is that we talk community, but where is community? Because they are expecting, 'Why isn't the temple taking care?' Are you living in the temple, are you doing full-time service to the temple? And if you are, okay, great, how do you expect the temple will take care of you? How do you expect the temple to take care of you? We may have our standards, but the temple has what they have. So when you said 'Yes, we are on saṅkīrtana, we do that,' who is living that lifestyle now? You lived in a bus, you ate this and that, you came back, there was a room that was bare, and you took your sleeping bags, slept on the floor, when you were finished, you stuffed it into a box and put that in the closet. Who are these people complaining ISKCON didn't take care? Are they living like that now? So then? Yes, if everybody lived like that... But the problem came was that everyone wants their own house, their own car, their own this, they want dental, they want this and that, they want... Wife wants to go on a vacation and... That's for community to take care, that's what gṛhastha means: you go out, you make your money, you do these things.

So, brahmacārīs, vānaprasthas and sannyāsīs, they may have more benefit from the institution. But, at the same time, it's the community that is taking care of the institution anyway. And for the gṛhasthas, then they take care of themselves, and if somebody is having difficulty in that, the others should help. They will sit around complaining that, 'Oh, yeah, ISKCON this, ISKCON that...' But who is giving money? Who is doing stuff from the community? What is the temple supposed to do? Right? Means, all those people that are complaining, they used to be in the temple, they used to bring in the money. So they didn't.... During that time they weren't taken care of? And if they weren't, that's just bad management. Is that ISKCON, or is that just bad management? Did Prabhupāda... Is there a rule, Prabhupāda said, 'No, don't take care of anybody'? So that just means bad management.

And so, yes, people are young, people are enthusiastic, they make mistakes and all that. But it's okay. It moves on. So that's how we look at it. Because at the same time is, we can't say, 'You know, my karma should be this. I should be living like a king,' we can't say that. Otherwise, we would already be like that. We would be the ones giving money to everybody else. But we are not. So, therefore, then this is our life.

So, we have to be practical and clear that, yes, there are problems. But most of... The problem, as Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura said, the only thing lacking in the material world is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So, because of our lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness - that's why there is problems. Like we said before, the temple is dirty because there is a lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so, therefore, you raise the consciousness. That's why we were saying before, originally, in the last discussion on Saturday, that's the GBC's main job, to see that the consciousness is elevated. The temple president is doing his best, but he also has to manage. So he has to see that the tactical and technical are going on, and at the same time people have a direction. But that's what the sannyāsīs, the preachers, the temple, that's what they are supposed to be talking about. Not whether, you know, women are supposed to be gurus or not, and talking about that in Vṛndāvana on Nityānanda Trayodaśī, and that's what the class is about. That we don't need. You know, there is a plenty of people who are woke and who have issues around the world. Let them talk like this. Our businesses is how to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, what is the standard of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, how to attain it. People are having difficulty attaining it. Like before, the first was that question, how do we balance between our sādhana and our services and this and that. And that's someone who is engaged nicely. How to solve that? That's what the preaching is about, that's what the training is about: how to get that. Because then if that person is balanced, then they can influence so many others. That's what the GBC is supposed to be doing, that's what the sannyāsīs, the preachers are supposed to be doing. Because that is the most important. But somehow or another it's taken, 'No, no, if I say you should spend money or not spend money, that's the ultimate position. And that one decision makes me the ultimate managerial authority, and I accomplish the goal.' Is this... It's kind-of like, who's kidding who here? It has come right down to, it's about the money, is that management? That's called an accountant. And the point is is, who has got a CA degree?

So, we have to be very clear. When we say that the strategy is pure devotional service, we have to understand, this is what it is. That has to be the focus. All this political stuff, that has come up because people don't know the direction. And therefore you can come up with unlimited speculation. So that's why I mentioned there, there's philosophy and religion. So you get rid of the religion, now there is just mental speculation. Or those who are attached to it, you know, the pro-varṇāśrama, this that, but then where is the philosophy? Then it's just sentiment. It has to be the balance. Otherwise they can't function. These are strategic elements. These aren't political elements. Because Prabhupāda said what's there, so it's not about 'Well, is it this or is it that?' No, Prabhupāda said this is what it is. We use our intelligence, as Kṛṣṇa Kīrtana brought up, how to discern, how to best apply it in the situation we are in. That's why it is called buddhi-yoga. Buddhi-yoga means, you are taking karma-yoga and jñāna-yoga and using them together. In other words, fifth chapter of the Gītā, that's describing buddhi-yoga. And then, as you become more mature, you can add in some dhyāna-yoga, you actually remember Kṛṣṇa. So, that combination between those three - that's buddhi yoga. By that, we use our discrimination and bring ourselves to the point of attraction to Kṛṣṇa, love for Kṛṣṇa.

(..)

HH BVPS Mahārāja: The point is is, we have to see it for ourselves. Because the point is, self-realization means, you realize it. So you can see how it connects to Kṛṣṇa, then it works. The other person that does... Like Yudhiṣṭhira sees how it connects to Kṛṣṇa, Duryodhana doesn't. That doesn't mean that Yudhiṣṭhira's seeing it is any less, or that Duryodhana is more practical. It's just a matter of, you see how... Means, the overall plan we can't see, we can't necessarily know. We know what the ācāryas have told us and all that, and so they are giving us ideas that this is how Kṛṣṇa works. And so, we see that it's there. Because the point is is, there is the aspect of what we are doing, but there is also the aspect of our own development.

Because we ourselves are doing something, and it may be we are doing something nice. But, at the same time, our attitude is wrong, and so then we are not learning by any other method. And so, then things start to go wrong, and when they go wrong we lose that mundane confidence. And then we might come to the point where we can surrender to Kṛṣṇa, and then it may be understood as, 'Oh, all this was just to get me to stop behaving in a particular way.' Because for Kṛṣṇa, we are trying to do all these nice things to express it for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, people, others who come, they are inspired by having a nice environment for Kṛṣṇa to do service in. So, therefore, that's why we try to create the facility and everything like that. But for our own personal development, whether we have nice facilities or not, that's not the real driving point. The driving point is, are we remembering Kṛṣṇa or not? But, at the same time is, by having facility, then it works. People are inspired. You have a nice, clean and organized brahmacārī āśrama, then their consciousness is better. You have a dirty one, funky like this and that, no one has cleaned the bathroom in weeks, then the consciousness goes down. So, therefore, we are affected by our environment, so we try to keep the environment nice. But at the same time is, ultimately it's not dependent upon that. So that's why then for Kṛṣṇa it's that devotion. So then, sometimes we may find ourselves in an unfortunate situation, like we see Yudhiṣṭhira and that. They have nothing to learn, but we can learn by what they do in that situation. Because as it is, Yudhiṣṭhira is not blaming Kṛṣṇa, he is not blaming the society. Is Yudhiṣṭhira saying, 'Varṇāśrama sucks.' Is Yudhiṣṭhira saying that, you know, the whole thing of kṣatriya-dharma is bogus? Is he blaming it on somebody else? Anywhere, does Yudhiṣṭhira blame anybody else?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: No. But we just heard the last question. The person was trying to blame ISKCON. 'What did ISKCON do for us?' Now, that's a valid question amongst managers, that they themselves who are responsible, how are you supposed to take care or not? And where does the line... Because as it is now, no one can tell the difference between the institution, the society and the movement. They can't explain it to you. So, therefore, they take care of nobody. But the point is is, you have to have certain things, they are taken care of, and they do full-time service. And these others, then they do what they can. There the temple takes care of the full-time. Those who are outside and doing, that's what the community takes care of. That can't be explained, so then they are blaming, 'What did ISKCON do for for me?' It's kind-of like, 'Oh, so you have been doing service all these years that ISKCON is going to take care of you? Is that why you are doing it? So, it was all karma all along. It wasn't actually about bhakti. Is that what the person is saying? If you say this to them, it's a 'No, no, no, no!' Then why are you talking like that? Stop talking like that! You know, yes, he has done so much. I know a devotee, he had at the time when he kind-of stepped out, he had at that time collected half a million dollars. That was back in the 1980s. That's a lot of money back then. Now, you are probably talking millions. And then he is going, 'Oh, what did I get for it?' Why? You were supposed to get a gold watch, or what do you think you are going to get? Permanent vacation in Hawaii? Or what did it say? When you joined, was there a list on the board of what you were going to get? No. It's you are going to develop love for Kṛṣṇa, that's the whole point. But they are saying, 'What material facilities did I get?' What about what is your advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Do you know about Kṛṣṇa? Do you have faith in Kṛṣṇa? Do you have taste for the Name? Do you like associating with devotees? Do you like worshiping the Lord? If he says, 'Yes,' so then that's what you are getting! That's the highest thing. And then to throw out all that out the window because you don't get an apartment that somebody's paying for? And then, it's not the apartment you want, and the windows are on the wrong side, and 'I want that apartment. Why he got that apartment? I am senior to him, I have been around longer than him. Why did he get the apartment with the big window? Why did I get this one?'

When are we going to wake up? All these devotees, would they have said this before? They say, 'Oh, but ISKCON did this...' ISKCON didn't do jack sh*t to you. You do this stuff to yourself, because we behave badly. What? Kṛṣṇa needs our money? Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu... lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyamānaṁ. He has hundreds of thousands of Lakṣmīs. Each Lakṣmī has all the money of the universe. So we do something, that's His mercy that we get that opportunity to do something nice for Kṛṣṇa. And He reciprocates with you Himself, personally. But we are throwing that out of the window because, you know, we were expecting we were going to get... 'Oh, but if I worked in this company for this long, I would get this much.' But it's like, that's why people join that company, to get money for this much. But we joined ISKCON to go back to Godhead, to solve the problems of human life. That's why we did.

So we have to move beyond this self-pity and self-centered kind-of thing, where it's all about us and 'what did i get?' and it says... So what? Who are you? Who gives a damn? You don't give a damn about anybody else. Is M. worried about all the people over in some other place, other than a political thing? Is he doing anything? Is he putting together that, 'Hey, we got to take care of all these old ladies in our movement. You know, they have given their life,' and he is trying to get people to be conscious of that, 'Hey, everybody can just give 50 cents a month,' like that. And if everybody in Europe, they gave 50 cents a month, you know how many widows you could take care of, and old ladies? You could take care of hundreds. Anybody has done that? Not one person. They are only worried about their own a*s. So, talk is so goddamn cheap. Like before it was, if you are saying something that's not worthy, they would say, 'Oh it's two cents.' I don't even give it worth of two cents. It's just such stupid political talk about themselves. 'Oh, society did this, society did that...' So what? You want to go back to Godhead or not?

That's why Mahābhārata is there. Look what happened to Yudhiṣṭhira! That didn't happen to anybody. Emperor of the world lost every paisa, living out in the forest. No one has had that bad of reaction, and look at Yudhiṣṭhira's response. So that's what we are supposed to learn: how to see things like Yudhiṣṭhira did. How to have the patience like Arjuna had. Not that, 'Oh, I got a phone and I got two thumbs, and so I can type all kinds of political messages and complain about this and that.' That anybody can do, and everybody is doing. You see the riots in America? See the riots in Denmark? Why are they rioting? Because they don't want to stay at home. They are simply saying, 'Stay at home, so you don't get sick.' 'How can they tell us? I have the right to walk around the street,' and this and that. Yeah, it's just, uhh... Do you see riots in France? No. You ask the French, 'What's going on here?' 'Government told us to stay at home, they [indistinct]. We are staying home.' No riots.

So, that's the whole thing, is that as soon as we make it about ourselves, the whole thing is lost and nobody cares. And you can say, 'Oh, but that's the problem, nobody cares.' But how can you care about something that doesn't exist? Right? The senses of that complaining devotee, the mind, the intelligence, the life airs - those are all coming from the Universal Form. What's him? He is the soul. So what is he doing for the soul? He is simply saying, 'ISKCON didn't take care of my body.' The Universal Form, it is part of the Universal Form, it's Kṛṣṇa's. He will take care of it however He likes. What are you doing for yourself, the soul? So that means, when I say 'self-centered' I mean centered on the body, not on the soul. Because if we cared about the soul, then we would do something for the benefit of the soul. Which is, you know, associating with devotees, chanting, taking prasāda, studying the scriptures, and then doing whatever you can to maintain that position. Keep yourself a little job, whatever it is, to maintain. But if you want to be the rich guy walking around with the gold teeth, like that, the chains, and driving around in the Lamborghini, you know, with the guns and everything 'Hey! Yeah...' like that, then maybe you got to work a little hard. You got to get off your own butt and go out there and get it. ISKCON is not going to give you that. Who said ISKCON is ever going to do that?

Prabhupāda was talking about Kṛṣṇa's taking care. We had temples with 250 devotees in. Prabhupāda said, at the time there was an average of eighty thousand dollars a month being spent on temple maintenance, taking care, and there was nothing in the temples in those days, so it all went into prasāda. Or a little bit rent, this and that. It all went into prasāda. So all Kṛṣṇa did was take care. And Prabhupāda is pointing out, Kṛṣṇa is taking care. So now, if there is no money, why? It is not ISKCON's fault. ISKCON is the institution established by Śrīla Prabhupāda to carry on this strategy that we talked about. This isn't the institution that's been established by Prabhupāda to establish all kinds of... How you say? Mental-speculative, you know, political issues that people have had since they were a kid, and now, finally, when they are 70-80 years old, now they can get out there and 'Yeeeaaah...' Vanaprastha is meant to kind-of-like give these things up. Not meant for 'Now I got more time, I have less to do, so now I can get more political.' That's not exactly what it's for.

So, I'm not sure if we are off the topic now, or people are a little bit...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: A little bit this and that, but the point is is, that's why Yudhiṣṭhira here in this point here, he says 'There is nothing an angry man might not say or do, even to the point of sending himself to death's abode.' But 'Knowing this, I will not indulge in anger. Rather, I will strive to control it.' So, therefore, you know, we do our best.

Questions on the same topic from day 2 of the Leadership seminar

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, if you understand what you are dealing with then naturally you will work in ways to develop it and you will give some direction on things when it's not going in the proper way. The point is is, as of now people can't define what is ISKCON. Because the point is, ISKCON has all these features. ISKCON is a mission. ISKCON is a movement. ISKCON is a society. ISKCON is this institution. They can't define them. So the point is is, therefore, as was mentioned yesterday, somebody is a member within ISKCON, but not in the institution, but within the society and that. And so then they are saying, you know, 'No one is taking care of me.' But they are expecting the institution to take care. But no, 'ISKCON take care' means these other elements. Because what we talked... Last, let's say, five years has been a big push on community development, but in what way are they actually cultivating training and bringing up community? I haven't seen it. Individuals, yes, do that. You know, Rādhānātha Mahārāja does, Nirāñjana Mahārāja does, Śivarāma Mahārāja does. But in general, no. It's, you know, people, the institutional, they can't tell the difference between these features. And because of that they don't know how to... Where something is going wrong. Because you see, in the early days people moved in the temple, everything was taken care of. Because everybody lived in the temple, you just lived with what facility was there and you did full-time service. But now people want to do occasional service and live like a modern middle-class Westerner. How is that... Where does that come from? Why would that be something that the institution has to take care of?

That's community business. But that's why it's called Varṇa-āśrama. Because before all the āśramas were running, and the only varṇa was brāhminical, and that's what was in the temple. And so, therefore then everybody does full-time service, connected with preaching and deity worship and education. And so, everything Kṛṣṇa is taking care. But when people want to live a lifestyle outside of that, on their own, independently, the institution can't take care of that. The community has to take care of that. And the point is is, if you are living outside of... If you are not living as a brāhmana, - kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, śūdras - they work. Brāhmana, he also is working full-time, but it's  within the activities that you do in āśrama. In other words, the four āśramas, that is the āśrama and the occupation of a brāhmana. And then, further than that, then the kṣatriyas have their aspects, vaiśyas theirs, like this. So they have to be doing something, they have to be creating an environment in which economics can flourish. In other words, they have to themselves be generating profit through economic development, or they have to be working for the other three. You don't have a fourth option. You know, sitting on your can at home and getting paid by the government - that's not exactly one of the things. Because everybody thinks like that, who's going to, where is that money going to come from? Right? Means, donations are accepted by brāhmanas because they are full-time working in that capacity, and it doesn't generate money. So those who generate money - they are the ones who deal with it, right?

It's a really straightforward, very simple system. Now, the details of it, that gets very sophisticated. But the point is is, we think the details make or break it. No, it's the principle makes it or breaks it. If you accept the principle then with time you will work out, by endeavoring with your intelligence you will work out the details. But because we approach it from the ascending process, instead of the descending process, 'Oh, if these little details don't work, throw the whole thing out!' And then, what are you left with? You are left with go out and get a job, that's what you are left with, right? But no, you don't want to go out and get a job, you don't want to do this and that, you know, like that. So then it's a problem. So laziness is not part of the Vedic system, and laziness is not part of the Western system who actually are people who really do things. Professionals aren't lazy. So we are professional spiritualists, so we are busy in that field. We are busy in that field, we have knowledge in the field, we know how to apply it. Prabhupāda makes the point: we are spiritual professionals. People say, 'Oh, we have to be professional, you know, like the karmīs...' No we are already professionals. But it's not seen. Why? Because no one has any background or saṁskāra that relates to it. But you would expect after 50 years that they could, by reading Prabhupāda's books and doing like this, that they start to get some idea about it. But if you spend 50 years opposing it, why would Kṛṣṇa reveal it?

The point is is that it's very, very practical, and nowadays people, it's not about pract... See, where is the taste? One, you are not doing anything in connection with Kṛṣṇa. You are not doing anything necessarily in connection with your duties that will give a taste. You are not necessarily applying a knowledge or skills or anything like that. You just want to feel. You know, that's the whole idea, 'If I feel...' So the whole point is is, the idea is, you want to intensify feelings. So how do I intensify feelings? Now you have to make issues. And then you have made your issue, okay, they went out for their march last year, right? You know, they went out pillaging and burning and all that kind-of stuff. Somehow or another in the history books those who pillaged and burned then were not considered, looked at in a good way. Like that. No offense to all those from the Northern parts of the Baltic and all that, or Denmark, which are famous as their occupation was pillaging and burning. But it will be looked at as a lower thing. But nowadays somehow or another the liberal, they can go out and march on the streets, burn things down, steal everything out of the shops, no one can, no one says anything. Did they say anything about how many millions or billions of dollars were lost in America due to all that pillaging? And therefore what kind of people are this? Right? So, therefore, you can understand, it is political. It has nothing to do with actual ideologies and all that. Just people want to intensify, 'Because I went out there, I yelled, I screamed and, you know, everybody has to respect that I am getting what I need. And so, why can't people accommodate that?' But then if others come out and yell and scream at them, then, 'Oh, oh, why are you doing this? You know, I'm just coming out here trying to express myself, you know, freedom of speech,' and all that kind of jazz. So we have a big problem here. Because in the name of trying to bring everybody closer together, you know, equality and that, they are creating more and more divisions. Prabhupāda always said, that you have the United Nations, every year there is another flag. So what was bigger becomes smaller, and that smaller becomes smaller until... I remember seeing a political cartoon. You have, I don't know if you have ever seen it, but there is a famous American painting where there is a farmer and his wife in overalls and that. He is sitting there with a pitchfork. Very classic American, with the straw and the whole thing, and like that. And then his house in the background. So it's the same exact picture, but in the background there is this big billboard that says 'The Sovereign Country of This Guy's Farm.' So they were saying is that you start out with these big things, they break down to smaller, until you're going to have each land that's his own country.

So that's the whole point is, that's how the animal kingdom works. So that's the point, without Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is no such thing as universal. There is no such thing as real ideology, all these things like that. So we are pessimistic about that you are going to be happy in the material world, but we are not pessimistic about spiritual existence. We have an ideology about that you are going to be able to be happy in the spiritual world. But we know it's not going to be here. So all the proper things of ideology and all those of pessimism, they are already there in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in their balance. That independence is there, that dependence is there, it's all perfectly balanced. It's the only universal understanding. Means, literally. There isn't anything else. People will say and do and that, and where is it? Because the stuff that people are talking today, these aren't new. These are philosophies that go back so far. They think of being liberal and socialism, these are all written by guys in the 1800s, 1700s, you know, based on stuff that was said before by Plato a few thousand years ago. I mean, it's just, nothing is new, right?

So the whole point is is, if you can appreciate this yourself then you'll point out how to develop community, how to work with the institution of the temple and how it can be a center of activities and inspiration for the devotees. In other words, you are showing kīrtana and devotees, so vaiṣṇava association, Deity worship, people can do that in their homes. They come to the temple, who can, and who can't come so often or like this and that, they do these things in their homes. And just as you have satsaṅga in the temple, they can have that at home with people in their neighborhood. They can't always get over to the temple, it takes an hour to get across town, but the people in their neighborhood, they can invite them to their house. That was one of the principles of League of Devotees when Prabhupāda had, is one family, they invite 10 other families to their house and do a program and train them. And with time those people, they will be trained where they can start doing programs in their house. And in this way then within a short time you have tens of thousands of people involved. That's how the community preaching works. But you have to be training them in this. Just saying, 'Oh, they are community, they don't have to work under the authority of the temple,' great, fine. But at the same time is, where is the development? I don't see it, literally. No one is trained, no one knows. I would be actually surprised if so many of these community people that they are making, that didn't join in the temples and that, just came up on their own, and they are not Indian or Asian, they might also not even know you clean your backside with water. There is a good chance they don't know that. Or how to put on tilaka, or how to wear a dhoti, or how to do that, how to wash your hands before you... How to make an offering. Because everybody is talking about the political side. 'No, separate from the temple, it runs on its own! We don't need temples anymore! That's archaic, that's ancient! No one does that anymore!' It's kind-of like, who is this 'no one'? Who are these unfortunate souls that say this? Or think this?

The point is is, all this is together. It's all part of one big, big movement. The whole mission, this is what it's doing. So the gosvāmīs, they had temples. Then we know there was communities. The whole thing was a movement, they all associated, and they had a mission to make people into pure devotees. So it's the same thing as what we've always done. It's just now that we can learn to do that. And you don't need any 'isms' to do it. You just need Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And that faith that that's all you need - that is the symptom of a madhyama-adhikārī. And not having that faith  - that is the symptom of someone lower whose anarthas haven't been cleared enough for them to have that faith. And then if we take that as a platform, 'Oh, people don't have faith, so we have to cater to that.' Then it's like saying that the neophytes, the kaniṣṭḥas, the prākṛta-bhaktas, they are supposed to lead the movement. Lead it where? So it's very... It's a sad situation when people don't even understand what they have been given and that whatever they are looking for, it's already there. You know, equality is on the platform of the soul. You are never going to have equality on the body. You can't! Every physical form is different, every subtle body is different, every soul is different, and they are saying, 'Oh, it will all be equal.' No, everybody is different.

So then, how about this: this guy did this work and he made ten things. This guy did, at the same time did three things. So we are going to praise the guy who made ten things and tell him 'It's so nice that you could make these five things.' And the guy who made three things, we'll tell, 'Oh, it's so wonderful you made five things.' Where is it going to go? The guy doing ten will drop it down to five, and the guy doing three, he will get credit for five, and he will drop it down to one. And then economically it falls apart. You go too far left, economically it dies. You just have to look at Russia. The USSR, it died because economically it couldn't function because of this so-called equality. China was dying, until they on the market level ran as capitalists, right? Governmentally they are communists, but actually they are capitalists. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So they are kind-of like capitalistic fascists. You know, some weird new thing. But the point is is, this idea of all this equality won't work. China already tried that. Everybody, they only made one size of clothes, size 36, one devotee was telling me. Everybody wore the same thing. If it was too long you rolled up the sleeves or rolled up the pant legs. And if you were one of these really monster big guys, they made size 42 for them. But, I mean, that's the extremes that these things go to. And how well was that looked at by the Western liberal world? And now we are talking the same thing? So if it wasn't good for them to do it, why would it be good for anybody else to do it?

So, one has to understand is, you have to look at what is real. It is God's world, not our world. It is God's laws, not our laws. And just because we think that we should be able to fly, doesn't mean we fly. Did you ever hear of Francis of Assisi flying off the roof and flying around the village and coming back? But he would get up on the roof and flap his arms and feel like 'I can fly,' but he was not that stupid to do it. So the whole point is is, no the laws are there. You simply have to accept that and follow it. Like we said in the beginning, if a kid doesn't want to follow the rules of the game, no one wants them in the game. It's a disturbance. The guys playing don't want, people watching don't want. But now you bring down a whole bunch of kids, 'Oh, we all want to play, but we don't want to do this and that.' It just is trouble for everyone. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī made the point, what's it?Śruti-smṛti-purāṇadi-pāñcarātriki-vidhiṁ vinā. Without the rules it's bogus, that's all. 'No, no but Prabhupāda said this... But actually...' Bogus! 'Oh, you know, but the karmīs are doing this, we have to also...' Bogus! It's just straight up bogus. And anybody was more successful than Prabhupāda? Going to America with 40 rupees. Rupees! Rupees! Came back with the 40 rupees to India. You know, went there, set up a hundred temples, like that. How did he do it? Just by preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness and showing devotees how to apply Kṛṣṇa consciousness into their situation. None of this thing where 'Oh, you are like this and you can't do that, and you are not from India, so you can't do all this, so you don't have to do any of this, you know...' And so then, yeah, go... Then why come here? Why come to ISKCON? Check out Ramakrishna Mission or something, or, you know, Transcendental Meditation maybe. So the point is is, you want to go back to Godhead, that's what Lord Caitanya is offering. You want to stay in the material world comfortably and kind-of dabble, put your toes a little bit into the water, yeah, you can. But don't claim that it's equivalent to someone practicing pure devotional service. That's straight, upfront cheating, nothing less. And we are trying to be gracious here, otherwise you could say much more about that. So the whole point is is, there is no advantage, there is no benefit, so that's why it says it's just a disturbance to the society.

So that's why the thing is is, none of these 'isms' are important for us as Kṛṣṇa con... But you have to understand the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Many times we take them and then apply it again on the bodily platform. 'Oh, the men are superior to the women and all...' No, it's not. That's not what it said. The souls are all equal, but everybody has their duty, has their mentality, has their position. So physio-sociological nature - you have to act according to that. That's just the way it goes. Say what you like, that's the way it is, right?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So it's just a matter of... Sorry? Yes, yes, it means... Just a quote yesterday, Prabhupāda said in Kolkata that the temple is not for economic development, it's there for education. But at the same time is, we do things, money comes in. You distribute books, you do this and that, money comes in. But it's not that the temple is about raising money, the temple is about education. And then money is there for that. Just like schools, there is... It's, they're educating, but at the same time, as you know, funds are raised. So it's a secondary aspect. So that's very important. Because we look at what's the greatest in volume that's what's most important. But that's the way vaiśyas and śūdras look at things, literally. What is more? More people, 'Oh, so many people say, therefore it must be true!' That's for śūdras. Brāhmanas means, 'This is what Kṛṣṇa says, this is the Absolute Truth, no one else accepts it, it's still true and I believe it.' That's a brāhmana. Kṣatriyas are, the śāstra say this, that's what people should be doing. That's the whole thing.

So that's why you see in Gītā it mentions, brāhmanas and kṣatriyas work on qualities. Vaiśyas and śūdras work on their particular knowledge and skill. It doesn't mention anything about quality. You can be a fabulous vaiśya and be a total criminal, you know, nastiest person on the planet. But he makes money, everybody leaves him alone. Same with śūdras: he is the best singer, best dancer, even though everybody hates him, but they leave him alone because he is the best. But you have a kṣatriya who is a problem, then everybody will get rid of him. Brāhmana who has that attitude, you want to get rid of them. So we have to understand, is that if you want to have the viewpoint of the bourgeois, and that's it, it's about who has got money, therefore you have power, and I want... 'I have money, therefore I want all the facilities of everybody else who is above me,' then how are you going to establish a community, a society? Because it's all about prestige. Yes, you deal with prestige. But the whole point is, it's not about prestige.

So, one has to see this balance. Otherwise then how will you effect community? There has to be rules, there has to be standards, and people then do their best, right? Because that's the advantage of community. They sit at home. When they come to the temple, you behave yourself. And when they go home, if they want to take off their clothes and jump up and down on the furniture, while, you know, singing some weirdo song, they can do that. What do we care? But when they come together and associate as the society, then they should follow the rules.  And those who are living in the temple, they follow nicely. You don't have guys that are lazy, like Prabhupāda mentioned, in the temple - no lazies, no crazies. They should stay in the community, come around, encourage them to come, do service, take prasāda, but they won't stay in the temple. Like that. Does that make sense? Because otherwise then the problem is is, they are lazy, they won't do any service. So then why be in the temple? Go outside. You can be lazy, but then you don't eat, so you have to work. Crazy is that they want to do their own thing, they don't care about anybody else, it's all about them, it's this '-ism', that '-ism.' No, live outside in the community, then you can do all the '-isms' you want. The temple, it's about this is what Lord Caitanya said, this is what Prabhupāda and Kṛṣṇa said. So we do that.

That doesn't mean, 'Oh, you're not thinking for yourself,' because thinking means it has to be stupid. 'Oh, if I am thinking something stupid, now I'm intellectual.' No, you analyze what it is that the ācāryas have given us, you commit yourself to that. So then we are saying, 'Oh, a doctor is not thinking because he just follows what he was taught in school.' That's the point, is that where they want freedom then they'll break down all rules, and where they want equality and fraternity then they'll create rules that don't even need to be created. So it's a disease. I am only mentioning these three because that is the basis of democracy, no? Liberty, fraternity, equity - that is the basis. So the conservatives are about freedom, but that means, freedom means, they don't want control by the government, but they'll follow their own community rules. While then the liberals, they don't mind the government control, but they have no community rules as such for themselves, but they create for everybody else. So it's a real mishmash what goes on. It doesn't make any sense. Because the more extreme they get then the more weird it gets. The closer to the middle the more real it is. Why? Because in the middle - that's Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The path of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is in the middle. So if you follow that then you find things go nicely. But the more extreme you become then it doesn't work.

And then you'll just get it going the other way. They go too weird with all this liberal stuff, like that, you'll see there will be a reaction that will bring it so far back the other way, it will be really annoying. And then from being there, then they'll be all this and that, and they will swing it back the other way. Why can't they just be happy and leave it in the middle?

So for devotees then if they are getting a taste in the association of the vaiṣṇavas, in the devotional practices, in their preaching and that, then the taste is already there, they don't have to be extreme. But if they are not getting a taste you got to get a taste somewhere, and wherever you are getting it you want to make it more and more extreme to get more and more taste. So it's just the way the jīva works, sat-cit-ānanda. They have to have happiness. They are conscious. They have to apply that consciousness in an activity. And that activity should generate some happiness. Because the material world doesn't really generate happiness, so, therefore, then they do something extreme that's different. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. Jaya ho! Hare Kṛṣṇa!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hare Kṛṣṇa.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Jaya Nitāi!

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. Yes, yes. okay. Means, you have... One thing is that when the philosophy, the essential points are being preached... Like if you go back and look at any of the points that people make back in the, especially in the 1960s, especially in the 1960s...

So, you'll see there, devotees are talking about the point 'we are not the body, we are the soul,' you know, 'we are a servant of Kṛṣṇa,' that learning, developing love for God is the ultimate goal, the process is the devotional service and the essence of that is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. You'll see they are all talking about these things. And Prabhupāda in the philosophy is talking all these fundamental principles. You don't necessarily hear that being talked now. Management, yes. Some other political theory, yes. But other stuff, not necessarily. So that becomes a difficulty, is that whatever is being discussed, whatever is in the ether, that's the kind of thing that becomes prominent in people's minds. If you are discussing about cultivating devotional service and all that, then it will go. Like the other day someone was telling me, on Nityānanda Trayodaśī in Vṛndāvana during the lecture, then... It's Nityānanda Trayodaśī, it's about Lord Nityānanda, right? But in the thing at one point they got off onto female dīkṣā gurus and about this and that, and about the importance of these things, and how this one this and that one that... And they were presenting a platform and discussing the pros and cons of that. Whatever happened about just Lord Nityānanda's pastimes, or philosophy considering Lord Nityānanda, or something? So that becomes a difficulty, where the actual fundamental principles aren't the ones being discussed necessarily. So that's going to be one point, is that whatever you are associating with and whoever you are associating, whatever they say, that's the thing that will be prominent in mind.

Then the other thing comes is the background. So in religion... Because we look at religion means it's piety, piety gives good results, right? And so, therefore then you have your Abrahamic religions, that will be generally the backgrounds we are from. And so then that means you do good and you'll go to heaven. And even nowadays, instead of you work hard and go to heaven, then it's, you know, heaven on earth and good will... Heaven will come down here. So then if I am doing all these religious activities and I am not improving my material facility and material experience, then we got a problem.

So then because of that aspect of this then sometimes devotees by habit, you know, just by the background and that, can fall into that. Because the idea is piety means it gives good results in the material platform and impiety gives bad results. So I am not doing impiety, so why aren't we getting the material results? But the point is is, we are getting spiritual results. So whether we get material results or not, that's not why we are doing things. But if everybody is working in that attitude of pure devotion, we see example that everything goes very nicely, right? Materially it's all nicely, but it doesn't mean that something can't go wrong. But materially things go nicely. But if you are trying for that then it moves away. It's like a mirage. You can sit where you are and you can enjoy looking at the water and the coconut trees and everything else that's there, sitting out in the middle of the desert, right? But as soon as you walk towards it, it keeps moving back.

So the point is is, as long as you are just focused on your service and association of vaiṣṇavas and trying to please Kṛṣṇa then you will get an experience of a nice environment. But as soon as you try to directly perceive and enjoy that material environment, it recedes. Because it's not about us, it's not about enjoying separately from Kṛṣṇa. So that becomes a problem there. Because karma yoga means you are engaging your activities in the Lord's service. But it doesn't mean that you are doing it for the karmic benefit. You might have some immediate aspect like that and you'll offer it to Kṛṣṇa. So there is the aspect of renunciation, that 'I work, I get the thing and then I offer it to Kṛṣṇa and then afterwards it's there.' But if we are thinking, 'No, I am doing this, I should get a material result,' then that's just karma. That's not karma-yoga, right? And it's definitely not sannyāsa, where I am doing this work just for Kṛṣṇa.

So then one has to be very, very careful to see what's the mentality. So because it's about 'Everybody should get something. Everyone,  everybody should this and that,' and everything... Nice. But the point is is, how is that going to come about? It's going to come about by Kṛṣṇa consciousness and working nicely together. But if it's going to be, by political issues you are going to make it happen, it won't happen. So we can just... That's what you learn from history. It won't happen. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, yes. You see that the association is nice, you read Prabhupāda's books, you see that your devotional practices are going nicely and all that. Because the point is is, whatever you get if you are materially inclined, you will never be happy. That's a guarantee. Otherwise then if a person thinks, 'Oh, yes, if I had a two-bedroom apartment I would be happy.' But there is plenty of people with two-bedroom apartments thinking 'If I had a three-bedroom or a four-bedroom I would be happy.' And then those guys are thinking 'If I only had a six-bedroom I would be happy.' Then the other guy is thinking, 'If I had one of those nice, you know, either Hollywood or Palm Beach mansions I would be happy.' And then they have that, and then they want, 'Okay, I want one in Palm Beach, I want one in LA, I need some place, a big place and penthouse suite in New York, I need one in London, I need one in Paris, I need one... ' You know, all over the world. So, greed means whatever you have you want more. Satisfaction means, whatever you have you are fine because it's great. Whatever situation we are in and thinking it's not very good, someone else would be in ecstasy if they had it. So that's the thing is, be satisfied with what you have, and then Kṛṣṇa will arrange however He likes. But it's up to Him because the point is is, the devotional attitude is more important to Him than us getting distracted by material things.