HH BVPS Mahārāja: The thing is is, Prabhupāda was going, he was preaching, he was doing these things, and his Godbrothers had been strong and they weren't. So in that way you can make a comment. But to not be doing yourself and then to make comments, then what's the point? So, in other words, he is making a comment in an area that he is working. He is not commenting on management.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Right? Or, you know, what they cook for lunch, or other things like that. He is commenting on the practice of pure devotional service and the preaching of pure devotional service, right? Because that's the whole thing, is Lord Caitanya has given. As we saw in Caitanya Caritāmṛta yesterday. That He has, Lord Caitanya has explained to Sanātana Gosvāmī, the whole process is, you understand what pure devotional service is, you mold your life and practice that, and doing that now you try to give that to others. Right? So you are developing it yourself and you are helping others develop. Whatever level you are, you can help others get to that level. And you can say, 'Oh, well, I can't take them all the way through,' but there is other devotees more advanced, they can take them farther. You do what you can. So he is pointing out is, he doesn't see that this understanding and preaching and discussion of pure devotional service is there, neither is the preaching of it. Right? So there might be some collection, there is maintenance of the temples, management is going on, you know, things like that. Some of these his Godbrothers are very good managers. But he is not seeing that where is the preaching, where is the drive. So, as Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura said, we are from Vrajavāsīs, they have drive, therefore they preach, they have life, therefore they preach. Right? If you have life you will preach. So that's the whole thing, if you actually value it, you will see how important it is for others. If you just value yourself the benefit you will get, then you may not. Or, there may be those occasional and very advanced devotees who, they sit and they do their bhajana and all that, but our business is not dealing with them. We are talking about those who are... Because we see is, in our line there may be bābājīs, but they were preaching, right? They were preaching. So they may not have been traveling around and all that like the sannyāsīs were, but they were preaching.

So we don't have something where just someone just sits and does their sādhana and that's enough. Like that. But the point is is, you have to know what is the standard and follow it yourself, and then you preach that. You can preach that directly yourself, or you can organize together into, as an institution and then do a very grand effort. So that's when the institutional considerations come in, is at that point. But otherwise, that everybody is following the strategy, that's devotional service. Lord Caitanya, what He is speaking to the gosvāmīs, that's the strategy, and every devotee can follow that and every devotee can preach that. Now if you want to organize it together, now you get the operational, tactical, technical elements coming in.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Right? But otherwise, what is the operational, tactical and technical doing? They are simply seeing that individuals are following the strategy and that those individuals are working together as a team to help others take up the strategy. There isn't something else. You know what I am saying? So it's not a separate thing, it's all part of the same process, the same what's going on. So does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, so that's the difficulty it comes down to. So Prabhupāda is talking about that. So that aspect then one can speak about. If that's what you are doing then you can speak about it, why not? But it also has to be in an environment in which there will be a benefit. To speak to people that it won't have any benefits, then what does it matter?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Before which?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: 1958? No, not necessarily. Like that, I am not sure what year the League of Devotees was, but not necessarily. Because he was already running the League of Devotees and he was already.... Oh, like this... May have been, may not have been, but the point is that he would have been trying to be involved. He would go to the temple. There is other ones where he mentions about them just ringing the bells and all this and that. So this is the disappearance day, he is saying this. So there is also one for appearance day. And so there then he is talking about they are just ringing the bells. So, you know, it's nice, the āratikas are going on and that, people can come, get... The āratika, they will come, get darśana and go away. Where is the book distribution, where is the preaching, where is all those aspects? So if those things go down, then everything becomes, you know, it's just a matter of maintenance, maintaining the temple so that you can maintain the temple. But it's, the temple is there to preach.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, because that's our movement, that's the movement of Lord Caitanya, is those who understand the mission, which is to deliver the fallen souls. And to do that then you yourself have to be practicing. You practice and you help in the process.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, that's the mission. And so, those who accept that and try to do that - that's the movement. Those who associate amongst themselves  in that mood - that's the society. And those who associate with the idea of organizing things so that these things go on in a very systematic way, that's the institution.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja:  Yes.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, so this is not, 'Oh, see, Prabhupāda said...' No. He is speaking in this way, he is speaking about pure devotional service and preaching pure devotional service. He is not talking about other things. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes. Okay, now we have 'Prayer Unto the Lotus Feet of Kṛṣṇa' by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedānta Svāmī Prabhupāda on board the ship Jaladūta, September 13, 1965. Okay.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Right, so by a strong desire. Means, he has this strong desire, this intense desire, and by that, as Prabhupāda was saying, we see in the last song, then his followers are taking that mood, are empowered to therefore preach this all over the world. And then Prabhupāda was lamenting that they have given up this mood and this following, therefore they have lost that empowerment. So we see, it's not that we are making it happen. It's the ācāryas, they are making it happen. If we follow, we take up that intense mood. And [by] that same power we will be able to do the same thing. We will be able to do all. Just like you see, Lord Caitanya preached specifically in South India, and the gosvāmīs then preached in all other parts, like that. And then other devotees went out around the world. And then around the world, Prabhupāda went around the world, then we see then other devotees, they preach in a particular area, and then within an area someone preaches in a specific project, someone in that project is in a specific area, so it gets right down, down, down, down. And so, but they can all carry that same strong desire, that same... What do you call it? Intense greed. That greed is that 'this is so nice,' you want more. Not that, 'Oh, yeah, this is enough.' No, you want more. It's so good you want more. So the devotional service one wants more, the giving that to others one wants more - all these different things, that makes it very dynamic, so that one is able to move forward. Move oneself forward and then the whole society forward, like that. Then the second footnote...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, even though people averse to the Lord haven't heard these things, by the grace of the Lord, by this drive, by the order of the Lord, by the Lord's, by the devotees' desire to please the Lord, then all these good fortune will be there for all living entities. So even though they are not looking for it, the devotees will go out to them in every town and village. That's what's unique. Because Kṛṣṇa, we see is, He takes that mood of just as you surrender then He reciprocates. Because He, being everything, therefore how you deal with Him in any facet of His personal or the extension of His śaktis, He reciprocates in that way, in that mood. You know, just like He is rasa, so whatever rasa somebody deals with Him in, He reciprocates that rasa. And to the intensity, to that intensity, right? So with Kubjā He interacts on her level, the queens on their level, the gopīs on their level. And then the gopīs, then you will see, those who are other groups, and then Rādhārānī's group, that would be more intense. Then within Rādhārānī's group, Śrīmatī Rādhārānī Herself. And so, He reciprocates with everyone. So She, being the svarūpa-śakti, that's His full... Her full love and His full love, that's complete in itself. So Lord reciprocates with everybody, but if somebody is not in some way trying to interact with Him, then how does He reciprocate? Because that is His vow, that is His nature. But the devotee... So because that is His rasa, you know, how He encompasses everything and how He will deal. But then you will see is the devotee has their rasa, their relationship, and how they will... So they can go out and preach to others. Then on that level then Kṛṣṇa reciprocating, that gets the taste. That becomes your intensity of rasa, it's known by that title. So, therefore, this whole idea is that everywhere and that it will happen because of this potency Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura gave. And then Śrīla Prabhupāda then taking that in full enthusiasm then gives that to us. So that full potency is there. We simply have to take it. That's all. We simply have to take it. Does this make sense? Yeah?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: But as it is mentioned here, 'My names will be broadcast in all villages and cities of the world. Even though persons adverse to the Supreme Lord have never heard of the forms qualities and activities of the Supreme Lord, the Holy Names of the Lord will be preach to all villages of the world.' So all those people that are out on Times Square they were all, you know, just happen to be shopping down there. But when their shopping is over, they will be back at the temple. All those people walking down... How you say? The... I can't even say, but Champs Elise...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Champs-Élysées. So they are all just pure devotees? Just happen to be out because they have family duties and other occupational duties, so they are out in the street at that time? But, you know, when they... In the evening or morning they will be there at the temple, right? No, the whole of ISKCON... We have to understand, is the BI is part of that context. It's not separately constituted, it's just another feature. Just like Govinda's restaurants, it's not that it is a separate entity. So that's the beauty of the ISKCON, how Prabhupāda put together the whole ISKCON, is that it has the aspect of the whole mission. The movement, society, all those aspects are there, and you do have the institutional aspects, just to make sure that things are going on. So that it becomes formulated, so that things can progress very nicely. That has to be appreciated. And the thing is is, you can run a restaurant that it is an ISKCON restaurant, you could run a restaurant that is not an ISKCON restaurant, it is your own private restaurant. But the point is is, you are someone who is committed to the the principles of ISKCON and the mission that Śrīla Prabhupāda gave. Therefore in that way it's connected to ISKCON. It's doing the same work, though the management of it may be yours, the results of that will be yours, and then you will do with it whatever you see best in, you know, to increase Kṛṣṇas service. Does that make sense? Or it can be that it's under the institution.

So that's the difficulty, is that we try to make it it's the management, or the money of it, the manpower of it that makes the difference for what it is. No, it is the movement, the mission that makes it what it is. And then it's just who who is in the control.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: You know what I am saying? So if the temple has a restaurant and something goes wrong at that restaurant, then you can say, yes, it's the temple, it's ISKCON's problem. But if someone running a private restaurant, you know, they are a devotee, something goes wrong in their restaurant, you can't say that is ISKCON's problem.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: If you want to, then you have to say is, 'Okay, every crime that went on the street is the problem of the church, because the guy is Christian, or he is Jewish, or he is Islamic, or... ' You know, like that. So, therefore, no, it's private. They are a private citizen, they are doing, that's their own thing. So that doesn't there... People can say what they want about this or that, but that point is is that he is an individual. People make mistakes. Just like in the temple, it's individuals. They have come there to do service for the Lord, they make mistakes. But we can distinguish what is the institution and what is not. So then it becomes more clear. But it's so nicely done that it all can work, it can all get because it is all functioning under the cit potency. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: I don't think the BI... But are you sure the BI has its own separate constitution and everything?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, so it's just, it's part of... Yes, but that's the point is, he only established ISKCON and BBT as two separate entities, legal entities, because he doesn't want the books to go down with the society.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: You know, just like you had individuals who were making a court case against the society because they were trying to take the society and the books.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: But the books is separately done.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So that's the whole thing, is if one goes the other is there. You don't put all your eggs in one basket, I think it's the saying, right? So these two are, and then India, because it was started in India, like that, you established these things, but that was left. Other places, they had the thing, but they are all part of the international ISKCON, and also this is, but as far as legality goes, if anything happens with ISKCON in the West, you will still have the Indian ISKCON. Just because of the nature of... The Indian subcontinent seems to be more favorable towards, you know, religions based on the Vedas than the West. It's just like, I think it's in Europe then, different countries, some of them are quite cool with the country, with the society, some are not.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Some are... I think is, I have heard of countries where you can't say 'The International Society,' you have to say 'The National Society.' Means, in other words, it's the society just in this country.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, okay. So like that so you have different countries, is 'No, we are not part of an international thing, you have to say it's local.' We are fine, we don't. We just want to be able to preach. You know, Hungary, they are deciding, are we a religion or not, or this or that. So, out of something like 250 different religious groups in the country they cut it, whittled it down to like 50. So these are bona fide and everybody else can take a hike.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Because they were just seeing that people are just coming in and taking advantage of the government  policies of trying to benefit religions, and so it was just money-making, it wasn't actually religious activity. So they investigated and saw who is actually doing religious activity. That kind-of thing is there. So the point is is, no, the BI is just those individuals that are within that and then they preach within that sphere. Just like those who are doing, let's say, college preaching, they preach in colleges. Those who are doing the prison preaching, they preach there. Some of those who are doing farming, they do there. They don't need to be separate societies. There is no need. Prabhupāda already established whatever is needed. So, therefore there is no need of establishing a separate society like some people do. But why would you do that? There is no need. 'Oh no, we don't want to be under the management.' But then the point comes down is, what's wrong with being under the management? What is there? What gets in the way? 'Oh, but they don't know what we know.' But do you know what they know? Okay, you are a professional scientist, but they are professional spiritualists. So now, since you are supposed to be preaching spiritualism, why can't you hear from professional spiritualists? 'Well, I am also a devotee...' But you are not identifying as a devotee, you are saying you are a scientist.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So then, therefore you need the guidance of a spiritualist. And if you are a spiritualist then why do you need a separate institution anyway? So that's the whole thing, is that this desire for being independent... But then who is independent? Because then each one... Because, as you see, they fight over each other. Do we go out directly deal, or do we just go in there and try to be nice guys so they think we're fabulous and we move up in the ranks so we can rub elbows with all the big guys? We can say, 'Yeah, yeah, I talked to this guy and that guy,' though none of them become devotee. Then what's the point?

While you see is that, it's like those who speak like that, who knows who they are? But in their day, I don't know about now, but there were two devotees where they would directly talk about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And at least in America they were, if it came down to knowing about... How you say? Extraterrestrials and that, they were considered the authorities in the field. Everybody knew that these guys knew what they are talking about. Whether the academy accepts them or not, but if you wanted to talk about this stuff, talk to them. So at least they were getting somewhere.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Because the idea is that you are supposed to either make them in devotees at least, if not, break down so they can't have this  effect on disturbing everybody else's devotion. But if it's just a matter of, 'No, you have to get in there and be buddy-buddy with them, then only...' it's like, since when? That's how all the big names in science got  in the position they are? By being buddy-buddy with everybody? Or they had their theory, they preached it, they defeated others, like that, they showed how it worked, then with time people accept. Is that all right?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, okay. Yes, so the whole point is is, it has a fluidity, but there is specific what is the institution. Means, legal, there is the legal institution, then there is the movement as an institution. So, in other words, it's been institutionalized in the way that it has a form, so that everybody knows what to do and take part. Otherwise, if everybody does whatever they like, what's their qualification to do whatever they like? What is their background that they know what to do?