His Holiness Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Mahārāja: Manu makes this point that a brāhmana does not berate himself for something that has gone wrong. He takes it 'Okay, now what to do?' and moves forward. Because berating yourself constantly - that is the mode of ignorance. You see, there is a difference between the modern concept of finding fault in oneself and what we see the ācāryas. You read the songs, they will say, 'Yes, I am very fallen, I am absorbed in all these things, but I just want to remember You,' it is a moment, they go, 'This is my position, but I am trying to be absorbed in You.' But the modern is, 'This is my position, I am so disgusting, I am so useless, and I can’t do anything,' and this and that. And then that is your position, then what are you supposed to do? So perfection is, if you can say 'Oh, I am so disgusting,' then everyone will go, 'Oh, now, that is honest. Now he is a nice guy!' No, he is in the mode of ignorance. It has nothing to do with a nice guy. 'Oh, this is so truthful.' That is not truth. Truth is Kṛṣṇa. So the point is, saying 'I am fallen,' how do you define fallen? It is not connected to Kṛṣṇa. So you are saying, 'I am fallen,' that is the position, and 'I want to remember You, I want to be absorbed in Your service.' So that’s where you are and what you want to get. So, 'Please engage me in Your service,' that is your abhidheya. So, your sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana is complete. So it is progressive.

So it is not that you can’t see what the fault is, but one is not absorbed in it. Otherwise what is one’s meditation?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, on the fault, not on Kṛṣṇa. So, therefore, Kṛṣṇa doesn’t want it either. The modern thing is 'Yes, that’s good,' but the modern thing is stemming from ignorance. It is just pure ignorance. I don’t care who is talking it, it is pure ignorance. Maybe politically correct, but that is the point, it is correct in the political field. And what political field? Manu? Cānakya? No, somebody made it up. So what is the use? Just Māyā.

So that means, one has to be able to forgive oneself. That doesn’t mean that you say, 'Oh, now it is alright, it doesn’t matter that this is done...' No, it was done wrong, now try again. Why is it that a little kid... Let's say, parents and their small kid move to a new country, new language, and they don’t speak the language. Now they have been there for three months. After three months who talks the language? The kid. And after how many years the parents are still, just they can get to the market? Why? Because the kid will make a mistake, doesn’t matter, he will try again and again. But the adult will make a mistake, 'That’s it, I am not doing that again.' So it is the same in devotional service. You make the mistake, okay, that is wrong, now, 'What should I do?' 'Now do that.' That didn’t work, okay. Let's try, was it just the matter of it was the right activity but I didn’t have the determination, or there was something wrong? Whatever it is, analyze it, that’s why the knowledge is there, that’s what the jñāna is for. Then one performs the activity again and again, and again - that is practice. Because if you are perfect, why would it be called sādhana-bhakti? Sādhana-bhakti means it is not perfect. The gopīs, Kṛṣṇa played the flute, they didn’t go. So that is not perfect. So what did they do? They try to correct that. Next time when Kṛṣṇa plays the flute, then they go. Otherwise, 'Hey, you didn’t go, that’s it, finished, eternally damned, sorry.' 'Oh, they are the gopīs that didn’t go.'

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, yeah. I would say you could, but for more detail you ask that man, but he is not here now, our wave-particle man, he sits on that pillar over there, but he is not here today. Yeah. The point is that Saṅkarṣaṇa means, you understand the field, so you can see what is right, what is wrong, what is to do, what is not to do. But unless there is enthusiasm to work with that field, Pradyumna, to get a result, Aniruddha, there is not going to be any activity, or Vāsudeva. So the modern idea is, if I look at Saṅkarṣaṇa and then I identify all the problems and I just absorb myself in that, and that self-absorption somehow or another is progressive. But it is not doing anything, though it seems 'Oh, he is so emotional and he is so absorbed.' But what is the emotion? The emotion is about himself, it has nothing to do with anybody else. Because until it comes to Pradyumna, where there is some interest and inclination working with the field, only then you can include others. So all it is, it is just all about you. It is just a tricky way to make it all about you. Because the people who are politically correct, it is all about themselves, nobody else. And so, if you are like that then they are comfortable with you. But if you think of other things and these other considerations of other people, they don't like that because it is direct. They will make it indirect, it looks like it is about others, but it is not. This is what Kṛṣṇa talks about, irreligion means you take what is religion and say it is irreligious, and what is irreligious you say it is religion, that's all. It is that obvious, that blunt. Of course, it is not politically correct to say that, but, hey, who cares? Kṛṣṇa is talking here, you want to please Him, go back to Godhead? Or do you want to stay here and be the politically correct man? Or, let's say, politically correct person. [Laughter] Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Because what is their background? It it the mode of... Mode of goodness means present, what is right now, what to do with it? Because they want to absorb themselves in the past, that is ignorance. So what is the Western culture? Passion and ignorance. So it has to be future or past. Present just doesn't fly. You know what I am saying? If you can somehow or another describe present, then you can write a book 'Be Here Now' or something, all these kin- of things. But it is, they can't understand, because you look at it...

It is just like this, you go back in time, a good Christian, you could take cat of nine and flog himself and walk 'Oh, I am so sinful, I am so this...' and that would be 'Wow, this guy is a saint.' So it is nice that he has understood his position, but the point is is, to be absorbed in that and not do something about it, that is the mode of ignorance. Okay, you are fallen. Now what are you going to do about it? It's like the guy has fallen over in the mud puddle, and then he sits there, 'Oh, I am so dirty, I am so filthy! Nobody should touch me, I am just laying here... What should I do? I should just roll around...' You know, like this. No, you get up and go take a bath. But just this whole thing, you have to go on. Because that is where the taste is, it is the mode of ignorance. So you sit around in a circle and you get yourself really absorbed in the mode of ignorance, and then they think, 'Wow, that was a great session.' But it had nothing to do with working with others. It was just that 'I want to be the center and all these other people are allowing me to be center, as long as I present it that their voyeuristic element can gain some emotion from it for themselves.' But there is no actual interaction between the members of that assembly. But without analyzing you can't see it, because they will say, 'No, that is not true, the emotions...' But the point is is the mind. What analyzes is the intelligence. So unless there is a combination of the two, there is no relationship because activity has to be performed with intelligence. So if there is only pure emotion, that means, there is no intelligence, there is no framework. So how do you define it as a relationship? Because relationship, you are taking the masculine principle of intelligence and the feminine principle of the mind and combining those on a common field. So if that is not happening, it is not a relationship. But because people emotionally are so dead, anything that will spark emotion they will consider, 'Oh, this must be...' Because emotion comes from interaction, but they don't know that they have created this impersonal, non-interactive, static emotional environment, and then somehow or another it is great compared to nothing. So you can appreciate, they have to have something, but if they are going to say that this is real, and when you present the real thing, and they will say, 'This is no real,' that is demoniac. That is less intelligent, that is mūḍhā, that is māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. Because it says right here what you should do. Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: You could try.

[Laughter]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: [Laughter] Yeah, okay. Like that. It is a strong element in that culture, the element of 'Remember, remember what they did to you!' So yeah, it is good.

Does that make sense? So, in other words, it is not that it is not understood or taken seriously. Because the thing is 'Unless you lament you are not taking it seriously.' But the point is, the intelligent man can see something as it is and do something with it. Who laments?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. Śūdras. So now it is the modern culture, is that you have to emotionally be like a śūdra, but in your action you should be Bourgeois, you should be business, it is economics. So all the economics, all the justice, all the morality, it is all about combining these two: emotions in the mode of ignorance and make a profit.

That’s why the Gītā analyzes these things, so that one can make this distinction. Otherwise, if one can’t make the distinction, one will be distracted, and one doesn’t have to go far to find these distractions. Before you had to walk out of the temple door, out unto the street to see the distractions. Now by the contemporary modern facilities one does not have to go that far. I am not talking about internet here, I am talking about interacting with people.

Does that make sense? In other words, means, you forgive yourself for making a mistake. It doesn’t mean the mistake hasn’t been made. It is not that you don’t rectify. Because they say, 'Oh, but if you forgive, what about the mistake?' But is the point to rectify the mistake, or like in his joke there, to talk about how I made the mistake? Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, but the point is, if it is pretentious, what is real and what is not real? What is substance and what is illusion? So the mistakes are an illusion because you are not seeing Kṛṣṇa. And the devotional service - that is substance, that is seeing Kṛṣṇa, that is reality. So, in other words, this position means we are actually giving credence to the material world as substance. That is the problem. People think morality has value outside of Kṛṣṇa. So one keeps making the mistake, that just means it is a longer term habit. You are making a mistake and someone says, 'Hey, you don’t do like that, you do like this' and immediately it changes, that means it is not very deep. And if it has been going on for a longer time, that means it is quite deep, one has been doing this for lifetimes. Just like Prabhupāda gives the example of, I think it was Ravi Śaṅkara, he was playing sītara for a thousand lifetimes, so that’s why he is good. So that means, if we are actually good at some nonsense, that means we have been doing it for a long time. So, therefore, we are trying to get rid of thousands of lifetimes of habit in one lifetime. But the focus, this is what Kṛṣṇa is pointing out, the focus is on the devotional aspect and then you use technique. For those whose focus is on the technique, that is alright as long as it is in line here, but it is less than when the focus is on Kṛṣṇa and then using technique.

But here it is not even technique. Because thinking 'I can’t do something,' then that automatically, that is the identity, 'I can’t do.' But the point is, I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. Is the soul eternally servant of Kṛṣṇa? Is it Brahman? If it is, it is not actually identified with this, though we identify. So by my mistake I keep identifying. So it’s just a matter of, 'Okay, then I have to do again.' So if it didn’t work that way, maybe there is some other way. There is something I am not seeing. Why am I doing this? Why do I keep making this mistake? What is the attractive element about this that keeps distracting me? Because that is Kṛṣṇa. But we are thinking it is the thing. We think the thing is, but it is not. It is Kṛṣṇa. But the illusion is we think it’s not. So to say, 'Oh, I can’t do devotional service because it’s pretentious,' but what is pretentious? Pretentious is that the living entity thinks he is God and separate from Kṛṣṇa. Because if we don’t do devotional service, what is left for us? Illusion, staying in the material world, being God. That is more pretentious. That was Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura's point: there is nothing more pretentious than the small thinking he is great. But that is what it means. All this so-called truth is actually, we can see, it is not real, it is actually demoniac. This modern concept of truth is actually demoniac, because it is not true. Because truth means it is Kṛṣṇa.

It is a fact, okay. You say 'This is a book.' That is a fact. But the point is, this book is about Kṛṣṇa, and I have another book, I have Shakespeare or something, it is not about Kṛṣṇa. Someone who is intelligent can find Kṛṣṇa, but it is not directly Kṛṣṇa. So unless you see that, it is illusion, it is not actually a book. Because a book is about Kṛṣṇa. A relationship is about Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is not real. So it is not truth. You can say, 'Oh, but it is fact,' no, but it is not real fact. You are only seeing the external, the operative cause and the material cause. But if you can’t see the original cause and the formal cause which they are reflecting, you are not seeing, you are blind. That’s what Dhruva Mahārāja was saying, 'I was blind. I was thinking being lord of the universe,' and he is not talking small time stuff. He is talking big time, he is talking about a sovereignty greater than Brahmā’s. He didn’t just say his father. His grandfather, which is Manu, and his great-grandfather, which is Brahmā, he wanted bigger than that. He is five, so, hey, okay. But he got it. But he says, 'I was blind.'

So, our philosophy cuts through all this and makes it very, very directly applicable to anyone at any situation that they can take up Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise then, if you have done anything wrong you can’t do devotional service, so who hasn’t done something wrong? And this nonsense of 'Oh, that was before you joined.' What does that mean - 'joined'? Since when is the soul not servant of Kṛṣṇa? So that means karma: 'I have done something, I joined, therefore it is something.' And then the problem is, if someone is in, he is doing his service and he is having problems, but he sticks around and tries to stay in the association of the devotees. 'Oh, he is condemned.' But if he has a little problem, and so he just leaves and goes out into māyā, 'Oh, he is honest.' This is all just demoniac nonsense. Someone is out running a brothel for ten years, they come back, no problem. But someone else does something within the movement, 'Oh, they are eternal damned.' It's just like, what does this got to do with the soul? What does this got to do with out philosophy? This is not Vedānta. Christianity, maybe. But Vedānta - nowhere close, it has nothing to do with what Gītā is saying, what Prabhupāda is saying, what the ācāryas are saying.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, the point is is, you gradually get. Otherwise... See, this is the strength and the weakness of the frontlines, or you could say, the First World culture, is because whatever they do everybody should do. So as long as that is connected to Kṛṣṇa, then they make the whole world Kṛṣṇa conscious. But if that is not their goal, then they are just going to try to make everybody not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Because they can't... It is not intelligent because they can’t distinguish. You have to be able to distinguish, what percentage? 'The water is either boiling or it is not.' Okay, great. But the point is is, I have water just out of the tap, can you stick your finger in it? Yeah. Now, what is if it has been on the fire for five minutes? It is not boiling. You know what I am saying? So if you can’t distinguish, you will get burned. And they are getting burned. Anybody who can’t make this distinction is getting burned. You have to be able to see at what level it is: that is mature, that is intelligent. Then it works.

So the drive that it should be good and do everything right - that is fine, there is no fault in that. But you have to know what actually is real good and real truth. But that one is looking for that - that is good, that is better than someone who is not, it is better than the mūḍhā - he doesn't care. But if it is not connected to Kṛṣṇa, then it still has no value. Indra is a pious guy, but still the position is useless. A hundred Aśvamedha-yajñas, do you know how many brāhmanas he fed, how much he gave in charity? I mean, he has done a lot, but still useless. That is the difficulty.

So the point is, the mode of goodness means what is happening right now. Okay, you use your intelligence, 'Okay, I have done this wrong and I keep doing this wrong. And I am in this situation, so is there a connection?' Because a situation gives rise to activities and results. So do I need to adjust the situation? Do I need to adjust who I am in this situation? What is it that is going wrong here? Analyze it, and then you figure this out. Does that make sense?

HH BVPS Mahārāja:  I mean, you try to give association, but the point is, everything is based on desire. So, what Kṛṣṇa is trying to point out here, you desire this, you can get it, you don't desire it, you will never get it. So the living entity is interested, like we were seeing before, in the last chapter, is that by being pious, the advantage of being pious is that it is purifying. And in that purified state there is a little bit more knowledge and a little bit more detachment. So one may be open to devotional service. So one gets that association, one takes it, then that is the advantage. If one gets the association and rejects it, that is most unfortunate. So the point is, it is still the individual has to desire, it has to come from there. So he has to want to move forward. Because there is a taste in feeling 'I am so...' It gives a very strong identity, 'I am fallen, I am useless, I am disgusting,' it is a very clear identity. 'I can do nothing, I am unsuccessful.' They feel secure. Because to start out on something where I haven’t been successful in the past - that is the unknown. So, in other words, you want to get something, you have to take a risk. Let's say, a businessman? What makes a difference between a businessman and a guy who has a job? What is the main difference? They both have money. The risk. The man who has a job is unwilling to take a risk in money. He wants to work every day and for that work get paid this much. But as businessman he can work that much and get ten times what the other guy gets, or he can lose ten times. He is willing to take the risk, that’s why he gets ten times. In the political field, that is their risk, they could have a position or lose it. In teaching, someone will listen, maybe they won’t. Droṇācārya, he is giving the knowledge, he gets killed by that knowledge. That is the risk.

So the point is, he is not willing to take a risk, he is very comfortable, he is in the hospital, he is the center of attention, he has a very clear identity and clear activities. But devotional service is something else. Because otherwise, let's say, he couldn’t ride a bicycle, but he ended up in the hospital because he failed? He kept falling off, gets caught in the gutter, bumped in the car. So this is the thing, is that one has to know that it is the nature of the soul. If you understand that the soul is the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, he is Brahman, he has nothing to do with this world, then you can understand that the actual adhyātma need is devotional service. Otherwise he is identifying that 'I am not Brahman, I am the adhibhūta. So the adhyātma is my need to interact with the adhibhūta.' And so, they miss the point. But the adhyātma is based on he is Brahman. So, therefore, Brahman is the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa.

So it is just a matter of understanding, analyzing the position. Because that is why sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana, you are talking relationship. 'Just don’t be attached,' but why not be attached? The soul is attached. The problem is, all that endeavor of attachment... Whether your attachment is to Kṛṣṇa or Māyā, it is the same endeavor. No? It's just like you had the... The example would be...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, cooking potatoes, very good, very good. Means, it is going to be the same, you cook for Kṛṣṇa or not, it is the same. I was thinking of... His Guru was Cintāmaṇi... Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, the trouble he went through to meet the prostitute, she was just watching this and going, 'Wow, if he would apply that to God, he would be back to Godhead, he would be a saint!' And so, she is just thinking 'That is a waste on me. Because you give money - I reciprocate. You give no money - I don’t reciprocate. So I am not worth that much endeavor.' Money, yes, but that endeavor - no. So she was saying, 'You should use this for something higher.' So the endeavor is the same.

So to make himself completely embroiled in the mode of ignorance, it takes the same amount of endeavor to get yourself out. So it is just a matter of choice, what you want. You want to get out, then you try. Take up that association. You can’t do it yourself, no one says you will, but that’s why association is there. But you have to find association that is association, means, real friends. Is that okay?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: But still that little bit of choice is enough to... That's what I am saying, is that that little bit of choice of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is substance, and that ocean of ignorance, it is still illusion. But we give the validity to it, that is the whole thing. We give that validity, that's all. So, it is just a matter of redefining what you say is valid. I mean, it is easy, of course, sit here and talk about all this stuff. But the point is that it is actually that easy. But the problem is convincing the mind that it is that easy, that is the real problem because the mind is attached to ignorance. But it is actually as easy as that. That’s why it is said, all it requires is a moment to be Kṛṣṇa conscious.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: That is how illusion works. It is just one goes into the next. But it does the same thing in the other way. Means, you perform an action, and you will get a result for that action, but at the same time it will also create a desire to do that again. So if you do something wrong then the desire to do that wrong again will be there. But if you do something right, the desire to do that right will be. So if you do something for Kṛṣṇa, the desire to do that again will be there. So that’s why you keep cultivating that whenever you can. So then the desire to do right has more points than the desire to do wrong. So it is just... And that’s why association is important. Because you are inspired by them, because action comes from inspiration. So if you are in superior association, you are inspired to make that endeavor, you have faith that 'I can do this.'

But that’s the chain that it goes, you contemplate the objects of the senses, then you will get attached. You contemplate Kṛṣṇa, you will get attached. It is the same thing, it is just being used in the negative. So attachment to family, this and that, but it is the same thing, attachment to Kṛṣṇa. Attachment is attachment. The problem is not attachment, the problem is where the attachment is directed. Identity is not the problem, desire is not the problem, activity, results, none of these are the problem. The problem is they are not direct at Kṛṣṇa. So that’s why we analyze, so we can see the difference. Otherwise the nature is that...

The feminine nature is just take religion, you have good work - good results. Bad work - bad results. But there is no distinction between that actually, one, they are two different things, and at the same time they are simultaneously one. Does that make sense? So we have to analyze. Otherwise the set thing is that good work is good, you know, 'I serve Kṛṣṇa and I feed the poor and it is all good.' But there is a distinction between good feeding the poor and good serving Kṛṣṇa. So one has to start to make these distinctions. Then it can go.

Because the point is, even if it is there, why does that come up? How to put someone in a different situation? In what position will one be able to engage the body, mind and words? The problem with this modern thing, why it is so, the deviant-ness of it is so great, is that one is removed from the position that one can actually make advancement in. Because 'the truth' is considered more important than actual service to Kṛṣṇa. Let's say, someone is a manager. So in management they are fully absorbed, trying to think how to get everything done, they are physically engaged, they will do more as a manager, if they do something else they will take a nap and this and that. But they want to take a nap, but they got work to do. They are always talking about it, they are always this and that, they are always absorbed. And so, that is where they are going to do. Now, the problem, they get off, means, they are not doing that. So the problem is is okay, then the president, he gets involved with some lady, something like this, but that is not managing the temple. So that is his nature, is to manage, this other thing is a defect in his own character, in āśrama. So then the thing is, 'Oh, he can't be president.' But now, if he is committed to being with ladies, okay, then that is a thing. But if he is not then managing is the only thing that will take him out of that hole.

In the modern thing, 'Oh, you can't do this, you can't do that,' you can't do anything that will actually purify you. You have to sit around and lament, and that will purify you. You know what I am saying? This is just demoniac. When we say, 'Oh, it is practical,' or this or that, or have so many mundane excuses, but they are all at the end of the day purely mundane. They may be considerations, 'What about the example?' Yes, but what about the example that if you ever do anything wrong, you will not be forgiven? Who wants to take up Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Go ahead! You take up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is great, you can go back to Godhead, solve all the problems... But if you make one mistake - man, you are damned! That's it, finished. So then who wants to do? Before people were killing each other to be temple president. Now we have so many empty temples, no one wants to touch. Why? Because if you do anything wrong, hey, you are finished! So this is the example that is being set. Now, 'Oh, what about the common...' They don't even know who the common man is. You have to come out of the room where the meeting is to meet the common man. You know what I am saying? They don't know. They don't know what is common, they don't know what people are, they don't know what relationships are, no idea. It just sounds great, but nothing has been happening for years, and the only times something happens is if somebody does what it says to do here. And if you use these modern techniques, nothing happens. They think something is happening because they are attached to the modern techniques, so it looks like it will give fruit, but it hasn't. It's been 15 years now, nothing. It's like that story that Prabhupāda tells, the Himālayas was going to give birth, so everybody went and everybody is there, and then a bunch of rats came out. So this is the whole point.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, well, that is the point of forgiving, is you know that it is there and you know emotionally they are going to go through this. So we are not saying... Means, it is like this, you may have difficulty, but the other person is giving you that space. If he gives you the space and you feel there is space to move into. You can only... Means, the ādhāra-śakti is the all-accommodating potency. If there is no accommodation, if there is not a room, you won't think about going into it. If it is packed, you are not going to try. So you can accommodate, but others can't, so then you will try to come out. But now, if you can accommodate and everybody else is saying 'Yeah...' then...

It is just like, you had, the Muslims came and they sprinkled water on some Hindus and said, 'Now you are all Muslims.' And then the people, because they are simple, they don't know, they went to the brāhmanas and said, 'Hey, they sprinkled some water on us and said we are Muslims, is that true?' And so, instead of saying, 'No, go take a bath, don't worry about it,' they said, 'Oh, yeah, now...' 'So what do we do?' 'Well, you got to drink boiling ghee and then next life you will born Hindu again,' and so who is going to be Hindu? they are all Muslims, there is 200 million because of that - that only. Prabhupāda says. All they could do is, who cares? I come and take some water, sprinkle it on you, 'Now, you are a Goth!' 'What? What are you talking about?' Like that. 'You are an Emo.' You know what I am saying? Does it work? It's like, who cares?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Hillbilly? If you want. 'Now you are a hillbilly.' So it doesn't matter. But the thing is is, they took it seriously, therefore then the thing. So someone does something, everyone 'Oh, yeah, so bad...' Because they want to talk about something, they want something to gossip about, this is the meaning. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says that if a devotee has a fault and you sit around talking about it, that is gossip. You can say, 'Oh, no, but we are discussing.' No, you are not. If you are discussing in a way that they will be benefited, the person that you are talking to will be benefited, then that is something to do. But if you are just talking, that is gossip. That’s fault-finding, that is kuṭīnāṭī. That is the difficulty. Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: What is the purpose of telling?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: But that means that they are in a position to perform the same mistake? If they are in a mistake, then you say, 'Well, if you do like this, this will happen.' And if they understand it, great, but if you say, 'It happened to him, he did that, it happened to him, so you want to make the same mistake?' But it has to be relevant, otherwise, if it is not relevant, then it is just something to talk about. It is like, 'Hey, this one did that,' 'Oh, wow, really?' Then the guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati  is happening, now you need some bhuṅkte bhojayate, and it is all happening, it is all going on. Do you understand? Like that. Is that okay?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, you are just going to struggle. But if you understand it is not, then you can... Because Kṛṣṇa is there to help. The point is, if you take one step, Kṛṣṇa will take ten, but you still have to take one. Because He has already said, as you surrender, He reciprocates, that is the way He works. The devotee can come in, crash in your life and do something else, but then you have to have a relationship, so that means you have to have actual relationships, not this modern concept of relationship, because that - there is no relationship. Because you are great friends, but if something goes wrong, hey, nobody knows him 'I don't know.' 'No, but you lived with him!' 'I lived with him? What?' [Laughter] Strange, the strangest things happen. So that is the problem, is that there is no... So then how one will have that surrender? Yes?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: You have to see what it is. It could be a doubt, it could be a misgiving. Generally, anything that is long-lasting is a misgiving or an attachment. But there is some way... A doubt is just that it does not logically make sense. You explain it logically, then it is gone. Misgiving, it has gone into the mind, so you explain it logically, but that doesn't deal with the emotions that are felt about it because emotions don't really care about intelligence. So that's why you have to have this mix between the two.

So, in other words, you analyze the field, then you are going to be inspired, so all this is intelligence. But to actually act, means the intelligence has to cross over to attachment. And when the attachment is there, then you are going to act, so while you are acting the intelligence isn't working, but you still have to use the intelligence to perform the activity. So there is a difference there. So, attachment means, you are attached, it is not an intellectual consideration anymore, it is simply an emotional consideration. Does that make sense? That's why when the men analyze so much the problem that the wife is having in the emotions, to the wife it is like 'Does this guy care for me or not? Because he is using intelligence, so there is no attachment,' because you are using intelligence. The point is is, you are dealing with emotion, then when that balances, then the intelligence would come back up, then you discuss. Does that make sense? It is just how the system... I have explained there, it is Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vāsudeva, it is our philosophy. So the point is that that's why when you analyze the field, the field should be according to what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, if we give some modern definitions, then that means when you get the desire, you are inspired and that and develop the attachment, the attachment won't be to Kṛṣṇa because the field is not Kṛṣṇa. Does that make sense? So that is why being acutely aware of one's shortcomings is all right, but that doesn't mean that it should get in the way of acting.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, if someone is judging and then saying that they are fallen, and so they are fallen?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Oh, within themselves, then it is just a matter of... Yeah, because the point is is that devotional service is the natural condition of the soul, these other things - that is not natural. But we have the habit at it, we are so practiced at it. Because Prabhupāda mentions that those who take up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, means they have already been in every species of life. So they have tried everything, and now after trying everything, then it’s kind-of like, 'Now, what are you going to do?' So then in that state one is open for the option of devotional service. So one is thinking that the material has some substance. No. It is because of our illusion and bad practice we still have some attachments in some area. But devotional service is more powerful, therefore it can be overcome. Why do you think there is such extreme stories given in the śāstras? And our situation is never more than what is in the śāstras. 9th Canto, you have this king, he keeps going back and forth, one month a man, one month a woman. I mean, you don't get more than that. [Laughter] Here we are not talking cross-dressing, we are talking, he is actually a woman. And then the next one, he is actually a man. So these things, they are very extreme.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Ajāmila is very extreme. He is 88 years old when his son is born. So that means, this happened after he is 88. Because Nārāyaṇa is big enough to kind-of call and recognize the voice, there must be some interaction, so he must be able to come, so he must at least be able to move around, so he must be at least 2. So he is 90 years old. And his position, what was it? Okay, this and that. He was a pakka brāhmana, properly following everything; he had a young wife who was properly doing everything; he had his dependent mother and father; he left all that for a prostitute. So is that bad, or is that BAD? Right? So you can't say... How many devotees can say they are in that position? Go ahead! Knock me out! If they weren't born in a Gauda Sarasvata brāhmana family and practicing and that, then forget it. If they were mlecchas and yāvanas, then they are not even close to the degree of distance between the two situations. And what happens immediately after this? Immediately, when he is back, he moves into the temple and gets serious. And you see him, you can see through the verses where it just mentioned that he went through this and moved up to niṣṭḥā, then to ruci, then āsakti, you can see it in the verses, they are describing how he developed.