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Prabhu (1): I have had an experience that a person lost trust in a leader of the community, and then he lost trust in the movement, too. So he stopped his Kṛṣṇa conscious activity, and finally he left the movement. So my question is, how can we overcome this problem, how can we maintain trust in a person? [How to avoid the situation where one] loses confidence in a leader or in someone else, in a person, but then projects this to the whole movement?

His Holiness Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Mahārāja: See, there is the principle of trust and then there is the particular detail, or application. So if someone who has faith in the principle of trust, then they’ll apply… If there is anything that has come up where trust is lost, it is only applied in that one area. So in other words, the trust was lost way before they joined Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Most likely, it was already lost in their family. So it has to be something where just the principle of trust doesn’t function. Because if you want to be realistic, okay, you can’t trust, if you don’t trust the particular devotee, then no devotees, then the movement, how can you trust the material world? You have already messed it up before you even got here.

So the principle of trust has to be there, if you want to do anything, trust has to be there. You get in an elevator because you trust it will get you to where you want to go, or you get on a bus because you trust it will get you to that place. Right? You get on a bus here, and on the bus it says “Budapest,” so you think it is going to Budapest. And the bus driver, you know, locks the doors and then starts laughing and says, “We are actually going to Debrecen.” [Laughter] Right? So there is trust. Everything is based on trust. So it is the one thing you can count that still may have some validity in the Kali-yuga. You buy things on trust, so it is still, it’s working on that. So the principle is not the problem.

Means, someone has some ideology, and that is good. But if it doesn’t exactly work, it is not that there is a problem in that ideology. The problem is that it is the material world and things don’t necessarily go the way they should, so therefore one would just be more careful. In other words, if you don’t want to get hurt, you use your intelligence. It doesn’t mean that you don’t put yourself in the situations, I mean, any situation you put yourself in that there is a relationship there is the possibility to become hurt. But there is the possibility you won’t get hurt also. It’s like when you sit down to a meal, it’s possible it will be good, it’s possible it will be bad, so does that mean we don’t try? You know what I am saying? So the point is that we always try. You go to the pool, it may be warm, it may be cold. So you stick your finger in it first, or your toe. And so then, deciding what is there then you decide what to do. So, intelligence always has to be applied, even when you are dealing in relationships. So you deal appropriately, therefore you get the appropriate response. So trust is a principle that is there. And God is always there, but we don’t judge God’s presence or not on how nicely the material world works. You know, it’s like saying, “If there is a God, this dog won’t bark.” That is called miracle, we are talking reality. Do you want that every moment will be a miracle? You know what I am saying?

Things didn’t go so well for one of our preachers, but after 2,000 years people still have faith in his teachings. So if you look at that, means that even if you are really well connected, you are on the inside track, things don’t always go well in the material world. No? And what do they immortalize in their faith is the point in time that didn’t go well for this preacher, right? They don’t have, he is not generally just sitting there peacefully and preaching and all that, it is at the worst possible material moment you could find him in. The point is, material world is material world. One is born, is going to grow old and die. So religion and God consciousness is meant how to solve that problem, means, how to stop birth and death, how to go to the spiritual world. Religion is not to make this place nice. If you are in a toilet, it is a toilet. It is not that you make the toilet, so it is fabulous and it is wonderful and move in there. Does that make sense? You had something?

Prabhu (2): In the 4th canto, we read the story of Dhruva Mahārāja, and Nārada Muni appears in front of him and starts instructing him, and Dhruva Mahāraja says that although your instructions are very relevant, I am unable to accept them, because my heart is broken. And in the purport Prabhupāda also brings up this point that the heart and the mind can break, and this is something I would like to hear about to understand.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Break means, you consider there is a particular relationship and then you at least either perceive or find that it is not like that. Because relationship means, there is a connection. So as long as the connection is there, relationship works, connection is not there, then it doesn’t work. So if you become dependent upon that relationship, but that depends upon that connection. So the connection then is not, if that is broken then naturally that is what it means by the heart or the mind is broken. Right? So it is based on that the relationship isn’t what you thought it was. Does that make sense?

Dhruva Mahārāja thought he had a strong relationship with his father. But his father didn’t pay attention to him because of the father’s wife who wasn’t his mother, that means his stepmother. So that meant, the depth that he thought it was with his father wasn’t there, that depth was there between his father and the stepmother. Therefore it is broken. Or between his father and his own mother it wasn’t as strong as he thought. So he found out his father’s relationship with his stepmother was stronger that with his own mother or with him. Right? So therefore then it was broken. Do you understand? So when a relationship isn’t what you thought it was, then it can create that phenomena. So the only way to deal with it, really, is intelligence and time. Of course, performance of spiritual activities will purify the heart that one will not be as affected or put one’s faith that strongly in material life.

From Seminar on Masculine and Feminine Interaction #19, 8 August 2007, Eger, Hungary

Prabhu: You said that we have to place our trust in Krishna, and the question is in connection with trust, our trust in devotees, because devotees are practitioners, they are practicing the process. How does this trust work in their case?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means?

Prabhu: I mean, we are taught to trust devotees, and trusting devotees means that we accept everything coming from them, like philosophical teachings or practical teachings. But we are very often facing contradictions, because devotees are practitioners, so the things they say may be contradictory. How should we deal with it?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: The point is, human life means to inquire. So it is not that we are just accepting something, it means that we understand it, that’s why we accept it. So the inquiry process should be used, but it should be used to understand, not to avoid. In other words, you want to do surrender, do the particular activity, but if there is a question, you would like that cleared, so that it is very… You understand how to properly deal with it. But we don’t use knowledge as a way to avoid doing activities. Does that make sense? So the inquiry shouldn’t be what they call in rhetorical circles, stonewalling. You know stonewalling, you don’t have something like that? Stonewall means, it is stone wall, means you can’t get through it, so they just throw up things, so that you can’t make your point.

So you should be convinced. This idea, without questioning, without anything you just surrender, but Kṛṣṇa doesn’t work like that in Gītā. Do we see that in Gītā? Kṛṣṇa says, “Listen, I’m God, just shut up, surrender, get out there and do what I say!” No. So therefore He explains that. And at the end of the Gita He says, “If you don’t understand it, I will explain it again.” So the better you understand something, the better result you get from performing the activity. Does that make sense? So as time goes, the more we are educated in the philosophy and culture of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then the better we will be able to perform the various activities. So that is there. And then you use your intelligence, how much trust is there.

You are dealing in the material world, so that means, people make mistakes, but the principle of trust is real, you just have to know how to apply it. If somebody due to conditioned nature does something wrong, that doesn’t mean the trust has to be lost. You simply learn, in that situation you don’t deal with that person in that way. One person doesn’t make everybody. So therefore one should not use the feminine principle of “everybody” when it is actually only one example. It is just with that particular person in that situation, you have to be more discriminate. And if you see a general pattern, then apply it in all situations, or be open for the need to apply it. Right?

Prabhu: Yes. So does that mean that with our intelligence we measure how much trust we can place in a certain devotee, in order not to get hurt later?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, how much or in which area. Someone may be very trustworthy on one side, but on another side no. Just like, you might have, let’s say, the accountant or treasurer. You can blindly trust them with money, but it may be, you can’t trust them in the least with the Mahāprasāda. So just because they are trustworthy in one area, doesn’t mean it will apply in another. Do you understand?

Prabhu: We apply this principle in the reverse order, that if a person cannot be trusted in one area, then we just forget about the person in all areas.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, but you have to see if it is a problem that they are not trustworthy at all, or if it is just in a particular area. Means, you do find, it is rare, but you do find persons who, they are so willing to do anything in any situation to get what they want, that you can’t really trust them anywhere. But for most people then it may be a specific area that they have a problem. And persons who don’t have that problem, then that’s better.

Prabhu: Devotees often would like to find friend who would be a partner in everything, like in leisure time or in studying, or doing service, so someone who is compatible with them in every way. And if they don’t find such a person, then they feel that they don’t have a friend, so they want to have someone who incorporates all possibilities.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: I mean, that is one solution. The other solution is, whatever are the various aspects of your personality, you can find different persons who you relate to in that way. Because it is hard to find one person that is compatible in everything. So you find different persons that work in these different areas. You might chant with one person, or take prasāda with another, or doing kīrtana with another, or living with a different one. Someone else, you reveal your mind to. And depending upon that, that might be philosophical with one person and personal with another person. So that way you take care of all your needs. And then you have so many friends, because those people are there. But if we expect that they will all be in one person, then we might be looking for a long time. I am sure, they are out there somewhere, but where, who knows? So that is the better way to do it.

The same principle applies in śikṣā. There may be different aspects of your life where you turn to senior devotees and different ones give in different areas. If you get it all at one place, great, but if not, you get it from wherever it is found.

Prabhu: So when devotees say in connection with their Guru Mahārāja that, “Oh, Guru Mahārāja doesn’t understand me,” can this problem, or does this problem originate from the same source that devotees want to find everything in their dīkṣā-guru, instead of seeking different śikṣā-gurus for their different spiritual needs?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. And if the dīkṣā-guru doesn’t understand, whose fault is that? Because we picked the guru, right? One is supposed to… You know, you have an “association period” where you check and see if you can relate to the nature of the Guru and them to you and you are able to, their instructions works for you. Of course, it is a shorter period than marriage. Interesting. [Laughter] Okay.

Prabhu: So why isn’t it that this “association period” is longer than the one for those who want to get married?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: I don’t know, you have a national council to ask.

Prabhu: [Laughter] Okay.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: They are the authorities, so they will instruct you and enlighten you as to the proper understanding. So in other words, this is the natural process. I am not saying this is what people do, I am saying, this is what is the natural process. One comes in contact with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By time and association then one starts to develop [relationships with] senior devotees who by hearing from them one is inspired in one’s devotional activities. And that may be so many, there may be five, there may be ten, whatever, it doesn’t matter. I like this one’s class, that one’s kīrtana, or this one’s class in this way, that one’s class in that way, whatever is the reason or situation. Right? So then that becomes your group of senior vaiṣṇavas, that’s your śikṣā-gurus. So the śikṣā-gurus are actually established before the dīkṣā-guru. So whoever is the most prominent one from the śikṣā-gurus, traditionally becomes dīkṣā-guru, because dīkṣā is based on śikṣā. Does that make sense?
So that person who you are working for, means you are inspired to work to please them, or that person who you get the better understanding and you are able to apply it. You know what I am saying? So it maybe coming from either understanding or application. But application would be the prominent element. So someone is inspiring the understanding of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, someone in performing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but in performing, that would be where you would… That generally would be the person who would be dīkṣā-guru. Right? So that way then you… And when you take dīkṣā, then the śikṣā relationships with all the other ones remain. Does that make sense? You don’t throw them out because, “Oh, it’s unchaste, and I should only have the dīkṣā-guru.” No. Does that make sense? So that way then everyone would automatically have their dīkṣā-guru and x-amount of śikṣā-gurus, and then one is fixed, so if any… So then one is able to be inspired from all different angles. But if you cut it down to the one dīkṣā guru… One, you should have been very careful in choosing, and two, you know what is the area that that relationship is based on. Does that make sense?

From Seminar on Masculine and Feminine Interaction #18, 8 August 2007, Eger, Hungary

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