Okay, Param 2. Pure ācāra automatically expands into pure prācāra, preaching, upacāra, deity worship, and all other devotional activities. By such purity, the devotee becomes eligible to enjoy the taste, the higher taste of transcendence, param drstva, that is spoken of by Kṛṣṇa in Bhagavad-gītā 2.59, which satisfies all desires at their very root within the soul itself. Thus, the lower taste for meat-eating, illicit sex, gambling, and intoxication is lost. Consciousness firmly settles into sinlessness, and the devotee gradually becomes qualified to enter the rasa of Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s personal association.
raso vāi saḥ rasam ye vāyam labdhvanandhi bhavati, declares the Caitanya Upaniṣad. When one understands the Personality of Godhead, the reservoir of pleasure, Kṛṣṇa, he actually becomes transcendentally blissful.
He’s bringing out this point because that’s the point of the saṁpradāya, right? Because that’s what we’re trying to establish. So here is that, as I said before, the candidate must practically demonstrate his learning through strict adherence to the purified lifestyle, ācārya, set down by great saintly teachers, ācārya. So it’s not just knowing the philosophy or tenets, it’s actually living it, right? The genuineness of a saṁpradāya or a person representing a saṁpradāya is primarily determined by spiritual quality. sarva-maha-guṇa-gana-vaiṣṇava-śarīre A Vaiṣṇava is one who has developed all good qualities. Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madhya-līlā, 22.75 The good qualities of the Vaiṣṇava are actually kṛṣṇara -guṇa, Kṛṣṇa’s own, and they appear in the devotee through his exchange of rasa with the Lord. Because, in other words, everything you’re doing is connected to the Lord, so naturally then the Lord’s qualities will shine through everything. Is that understood?
The Lord’s transcendental qualities are unlimited, ananta-kṛṣṇara -guṇa, and His devotees are likewise unlimited. This combination precipitates different moods of love of God, Godhead, which are visible in the persons of great ācāryas who have descended into this world to teach genuine Vaiṣṇava qualities via the saṁpradāya system. Even when He seems to be invariant with other ācāryas on certain matters of detail, it is clear that a real ācārya is situated in perfect knowledge because he, one, is free from vice, two, exhibits the good qualities of a Vaiṣṇava, and three, accepts Viṣṇu-tattva as supreme. Differences between the teachings of ācāryas are due to their individual moods of love for the Lord. Also you have different situations in which they are performing their devotional service, because that may change wherever you happen to be, the particular time that it happens to be. Then you get different needs, so therefore they’ll also be preaching in different ways.
This is a quote from Prabhupāda. What Madhavacārī understands, we also understand. What Rāmānujā understands, we also understand. What Caitanya Mahāprabhu understands, we also understand. There is no difference. That is Vaiṣṇava. All the Vaiṣṇavas understand that Viṣṇu is the Supreme. There may be, sometimes, such as Kṛṣṇa is understood as incarnation of Viṣṇu, and sometimes they understand Viṣṇu as the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. That is sampradāya. That is sampradāya. But either Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu, He is supreme. That is accepted by all. If I love somebody, I’ll say, He is first. And if you love somebody, you’ll say, He is first. But both of them, same. Hanumanji, he’ll never accept Kṛṣṇa, and the gopīs will never accept Rāma or Viṣṇu. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, Conversation, May 6, 1975. So the point that makes them Vaiṣṇavas is that they’re accepting Viṣṇu as supreme. That’s the main point. They follow the Vaiṣṇava etiquette, and they are free from vice. In other words, free from vice means free from involvement in the material world, entanglement in the material world. So therefore, then, one is having all good qualities because he is accepting Viṣṇu as supreme. Does that make sense? So instead of the activities being in the material, the activities are in the spiritual.
And to serve Viṣṇu, you serve with devotees. So that requires etiquette. Does that make sense? So we’re trying to become Vaiṣṇavas? Yes, we’re trying to become Vaiṣṇavas. That’s the point. That’s why we say, dasa na dasa, is we’re trying to become Vaiṣṇavas. So technically it means we use the generic term Vaiṣṇava, because that’s what you’re trying to do. But technically Vaiṣṇavas means these great personalities. They’re Vaiṣṇavas. Like that. Everybody else is trying to become Vaiṣṇava. Does that make sense?
Admission into a sampradāya ultimately depends upon the aspirant’s submission to the mood of the ācāryas through strict adherence to the ācāra he teaches. So it’s not that you can accept the person and not his teachings. I mean, we do see. Paulinism, that’s exactly what they’re trying to do. It’s not that you need to accept so much the mood and the teachings. It’s just simply you accept the ācārya and then, you know, you’re saved. Like that.
So the problem comes, is that it’s about you get to that specific place that the person is talking about because you accept the activities, that mood and activities, that actually get you there. You have to do some activity to get a result. Just that I accept. Yes, I accept within my heart that the blender blends. And so now all my blending problems are over.
Do you ever put anything in the blender? No, you don’t have to. You simply have to accept the blender within your heart.
Does this make sense? Yeah, that’s the problem. The point is, that’s what’s going on. The point is, the sampradāya means the mood and the activities given by the ācārya is what you do.
That’s very important. It’s not just faith in the ācārya, it’s faith in the teachings and following that mood of the ācārya.
Does that make sense? That’s what has to be taught. Otherwise, then what’s the sampradāya? So that’s what this section is about. Those who accept Mahāprabhu, or somehow or another the Vedic version, but don’t accept the proper mood or necessarily the activities. So some accept the mood, not the activities, some the activities, not the mood. Like the sahajiyas try to think they have the mood, but they don’t do the activities. The smartest, they have the activities, not the mood. And then everything in between. Those are your two extremes. You have sahajiyas that end, smartas that end. Everybody else is in between. And the Vaiṣṇavas are on the razor’s edge in the middle.
Admission into a sampradāya ultimately depends upon the aspirant’s submission to the mood of the ācārya through strict adherence to the ācārya he teaches. Another point here is admission into the sampradāya. It’s not that I do that, therefore I’m admitted. No, it’s you do those things, then those who are actually in the sampradāya acknowledge and accept you. It’s not because I’ve done it, therefore I’ve accepted. That’s karma-nimamsa.
The point is, no, you’ve done it, therefore that submission is there. The ācāryas accept you into the sampradāya.
That’s the whole point.
When asked what constitutes the personal relationship of a disciple to a spiritual master, Śrīla Prabhupāda answered, to obey your spiritual master, whatever he has said, you must follow strictly, follow the regulative principles, chant sixteen rounds, that’s all.
Śrīla Prabhupāda conversation, April 8th, 1975.
In another conversation, March 11th, 1976, Śrīla Prabhupāda compared the disciple to wood, the spiritual master to matches, Kṛṣṇa consciousness to fire and māyā to water. When damp wood is placed in fire, it first dries, then ignites. When drying is compared to the practice of ācārya, by which the disciple associates with the ācārya. When he becomes firmly situated in ācārya, he naturally ignites with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In this way, the flame of pure Kṛṣṇa bhakti passes down the sampradāya. There are four lines of disciplic succession, one from Lord Brahmā, one from Lord Śiva, one from Lakṣmī, the goddess of fortune, and one from the Kumāras. The disciplic succession from Lord Brahmā is called the Brahma-sampradāya. The succession from Lord Śiva, Śambhu, is called the Rudra-sampradāya. The one from the goddess of fortune, Lakṣmī -ji, is called the Śrī-sampradāya. And the one from the Kumāras is called the Kumāra-sampradāya.
One must take shelter of one of these four sampradāyas in order to understand the most confidential religious system. Most confidential means bhakti. Because religion means what is the nature of something. Within the material world, what’s the nature of a brāhmaṇa, what’s the kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra? Therefore, how will they interact?
The nature of the brāhmaṇa, therefore, will do his brahminical activities like this. The kṣatriya, he has this nature, therefore, will do like that. The brāhmaṇa does it with humility. The kṣatriya does it with that whole chivalry, that kind of attitude or dignity. It means if the kṣatriya walks out on the battlefield and has this and, like Arjuna, who has come here to fight? Let us see who is here. But the brāhmaṇa, he walks into the yaga, okay, who has come here for this sacrifice? Who wants to be in the yaga? Let us see. You think, this is weird. Who is this guy?
Or he comes out on the battlefield, well, you know I’ve come here to do whatever I can. To assist, you know, Yudhiṣṭhira in trying to do our best and an instrument for the Lord and trying to establish the religion. You know, you think, you know, yeah, it’s like, you know. You understand? So that’s religion. What is the nature of something, that’s why they go. But what’s the highest form of religion? Taking that and engaging in the Lord’s service. Right? So the point is, highest religion means the engagement in the Lord’s service. Then what do you engage in the Lord’s service? Religion. Right? That’s why it says pious activities, because religion is pious activities. Right? Irreligion is impious activities. So impious activities, you don’t engage in the Lord’s service. Pious activities you engage in the Lord’s service, because religion is engaged in the religion, for higher religion, right? You take, you know, $10 to make $100. Right? Does that make sense? Like that. It makes, it means, you take what is the same thing, and you get to get more. So the point is, is it’s, the highest arm is devotion to the Lord. So that’s the whole point, is that one of these Sampradayas you have to be in to get that devotion to the Lord. Right? So that’s taken as the highest religion. Then within the highest religion, there’s variety of taste. Right? So therefore, if you want Krishna in braj, then Mahaprabhu’s line is going to give that. Right? If you want, you know, I say Swarupya, the Madhus will give you that. You know? Does that make sense? So each one will give you something specific. Like that.
So one must take shelter of one of these four Sampradayas in order to understand the most confidential religious system. Right? Because here, most confidential doesn’t mean what Lord Caitanya is giving. Most confidential means devotional service. Then within most confidential, there’s even more confidential.
In the Padma Purana, it is said, Sampradaya, Vihina, Ye Mantras, Te, Nisvala, Mata. If one does not follow the four recognized disciplic successions, his mantra or initiation is useless. Right? So the point is, it’s not a matter, well, I have the mantra and I’m doing the thing and I want to do it this way, and so that’s the way it is. The point is, this is the material world. You don’t have to be let out.
Right? You don’t have the right attitude. A prisoner doesn’t have to be let out. You know what I’m saying? If he’s still badly behaved and everything, yes.
No, I said what Lord Caitanya is giving.
Oh yeah, it’s not meaning what Lord Caitanya is giving. Meaning when you say, Lord Caitanya is giving the most confidential. That’s within Vaishnavism. We’re talking about within religion, the most confidential is devotional service. Then within devotional service, then the most confidential is that love of Krishna.
That’s what Lord Caitanya is giving.
Here, the author is using the term, because he’s quoting from Prabhupada here, is the most confidential religious system. So here, confidential, we’re talking on the word confidential, that the word confidential in this context means devotional service.
But we’re used to hearing the word confidential religious system meaning what Lord Caitanya is specifically giving is vraja prema. That’s not what he’s saying here because he’s saying all four sampradayas. So in other words, the four sampradayas, these are the Vaishnavas. So these are the special persons who understand the actual point of human life. Then within that, it just depends where you want to go. Does that make sense? You know what I’m saying? It’s just like this. You’re hungry, you want to eat. Okay, so then you have restaurants. So you can eat at restaurants. So restaurants have food. So if you have a proper restaurant, you get proper food. But the point is, you want Mexican, you go to this. You want Thai, you go to that. You want continental, you go to this one. You want Indian, you go to that one. Do you understand? So that’s the whole point. Vaishnavas, they are the actual proper practicing personalities of understanding what human life and the material world and the scriptures are for. Right? Then within that, according to taste, that’s why by taste, someone is here and someone is there. Like it says, Hanumanji will never accept Krishna and the gopis will never accept Rama.
Does that make sense? That doesn’t mean they don’t know that they’re there. The gopis are saying, you know, that Krishna’s badly behaved and doesn’t know properly how to deal with girls. You know, an example is how he dealt with Suparnaka. So for them, Ramachandra is Krishna. And for Hanuman, Krishna is wrong.
Because it’s one person.
Do you understand? It’s just like the wife at home. Right? Her husband is the high court judge. But who is he? He’s her husband. And he has a job at the high court. So it’s not that him at the high court is not her husband. But that’s just her husband doing judge stuff. Right? But now let’s say you have the other judges and that or they’ll say the barristers. Right? Down at the court. So they’re there, so they know the judge as a judge. They also know, yes, of course, he has a family. So he is a husband, but he’s the judge. You understand? That’s what’s going on between the different groups of Vaishnavas. It’s just which taste they have. It’s the same person. So in that way, so we’ll say it means Krishna’s first, then all the others are there. But even if someone looks at it, the Vaishnavas look at it, the Vishnu’s first and Krishna’s incarnation, we don’t really have a problem with that. For them, that’s their taste. Because for them, Krishna-lila is just the manifestation of Vishnu’s-lila. That’s the sweet aspect. So it means, Vaikuntha is all the opulence and all reverence and all that. But there is the sweet aspect. So there are many of these Vaikuntha Vaishnavas who their preference in worship is that of Krishna. But it’s still Vishnu as Krishna.
So, does that make sense? So, therefore, that Krishna performing those pastimes is an expansion of Vishnu.
Because that’s not Braja-Krishna. That’s why we use the term Braja-Krishna or Braja-Gokula to distinguish it from other incarnations of Krishna and Gokula. Does it make sense? Yeah. So, the point is this. Krishna expands into Vishnu and then Vishnu expands into so many also into these pastimes of Krishna. So sometimes you hear these pastimes in the Brahma-Vaivarta and stuff like that. Krishna-lila there and the whole thing, the riot that goes on over Tulsi and then she becomes a tree and Krishna becomes a Shaligram and the whole fight and all these things. Those are, we’re talking, that’s not Swayam-Krishna.
You understand? That’s Krishna as who’s expanded from Vishnu. Same person, just the mood is not as full.
Does that make sense?
Yes? No? So, therefore, it’s not a problem how they’re looking at it. The point is, is that Vishnu is supreme. You know, His form is eternal. Right? That was one of the points he meant. Yeah.
Does that make sense? Okay.
In the present day there are many apasampradayas or sampradayas which are not bona fide, which have no link to authorities like Lord Brahma, Lord Shiva, the Kumaras or Lakshmi. People are misguided by such sampradayas. The Shastra says that being initiated in such a sampradaya is a useless waste of time for it will never enable one to understand the real religious principles. In other words, you can’t actually understand bhakti. Right? You know, because they’ll think that I do this, therefore, I’ll get heaven. Right? Or it’s just by, you know, crying and rolling on the ground, therefore, I’m tasting this balm, you know, and stuff like that. So, Srimad Bhagavatam 6.321, purport. Yes?
Is it possible for one member of a sampradaya to taste religion, morality?
If he cannot taste real religious principles, can he taste something? Can he taste something? I mean, as we said, everybody’s tasting something. I mean, because the soul is there. It’s the soul who’s making everything active. And it’s the interaction between the soul and the Lord where the taste is there, within the material world. So, there’s always something of use in everything. But the point is, bhakti means it’s complete. Pure devotion means it’s complete. So, therefore, if it doesn’t have all those elements, then it’s not complete. May I say that if he gets something, like… No, but something. What is that something? Like sweetness? Yes. Not even… But the point is, is that he’s performing a duty because the Shastra says, so he’s getting the taste of the mode of goodness. The point is, is bhakti comes from actual bhakti, a sampradaya. He won’t get that. But the point is, is we’re talking about something that’s unlimitedly beyond everything here. And if we just go out and… The birds are chirping. So peaceful.
You know, oh, isn’t that such a spiritual experience?
Do you understand? So, someone coming from the city, just to hear some birds. You know. Funny, we laugh. It’s like, here there’s always birds. You know, just now there’s more birds, right? But, you know, this is spring. So I’m in Europe in the summer. Right? You know. And then I’m there in some place for weeks, and I’m in the country. And then after a week, I saw some birds.
They all came here. Yeah, they all came here. But this is the middle of summer, right? And then I finally saw some birds. Right? You know. Like here, it’s like, you know, all you see is birds.
So it’s, you know, and then it’s, wow, you know, I see something green. Wow, you know. It’s like, you know. So, it’s taking this spiritual. So it’s so, oh, wow, so uplifting. I felt so purified. I felt so enlivened. I felt so empowered. You know, they go on and on and on. Right? Like that. You know, that’s the advantage. The more adjectives you have, the better you feel.
Right? So, so, the whole thing is you’re going through this, and then, but the thing is, is, that’s what they’re tasting. If they’re not in the Sampradaya, that’s all they can get. They can’t get bhakti. They can perform the act just like the smartest. Means, means those who know. If, let’s say, someone’s from a smart background. Right? And you ask them, okay, they were smartest, but were they Vaishnavas? If they’re devotees, generally listen, no. But you say, what was your deity? Vishnu. So, but within the smartest who are not devotees, they’ll say, we’re Vaishnavas because we worship Vishnu. Right? And those who worship the sun god say, we’re Saurians. You know, those who worship Ganesha, we’re Ganapathyas. So, they’ll say that we’re Vaishnavas. So, we’re Vaishnavas, and you’re Vaishnavas. So, hey, it’s all cool. But what they’re tasting, what we’re tasting, has nothing to do with each other.
You know what I’m saying? It’s mundane. Yeah, it is mundane. It’s like having a video game. Right? You know, you’re going along with the video game and you have these interactives with someone from halfway around the world who’s, you know, playing the other part. And then in between a battle, then they come up to, hey, do you want to go over to, you know, that, how do you say, yonder inn, you know, to have something to drink. And yeah, okay, cool. And the two of you, you can see on the screen, the two of you walking off, say, yeah, this is interaction. This is happening. What taste are they getting? Is that the same taste as actually two people meeting and say, hey, you want to go, you know, not at all. But it appears that way. So that’s all they’ll get.
Aparasampradayas means get, you know, what is it? Babkis. Babkis. Was that the proper pronunciation?
No. How do you say it? I don’t know what it is. You don’t know that word?
You don’t know that word? No. Really? Maybe it sounds different. Babkis? Babkis? I think it’s babkis. Babkis. It’s Yiddish? It’s Yiddish. That’s the problem. You guys are too far north.
Okay. Means you don’t get anything.
So that’s the thing. It’s nice, it may look like the thing, but it’s not, you know.
But it seems, but it’s not, you know. Yes. So in the Zen, all the Sampradayas, do we recognize any difference between themselves and the next generation of us? That’s a good question. They’ll just consider that they’re important and everybody else is not. You know, they have the inside scoop, the special that no one else has. Like that.
Yes.
Human beings living there is mode of goodness, but all those trees and that, they’re all in the mode of ignorance.
Isn’t that because they are able to engage spiritually? It’s there that they’ve connected that, but the point is, is then what they’re doing with it. They’re not connected. It’s not necessarily, means the point is, is that if the living entity has made that choice to live in that kind of environment for spiritual life, you know, or because that’s what the Shastras recommend, then that’s mode of goodness. But it’s not that the Aboriginals preferring to be out there is necessarily a mode of goodness. But the point is, is they will be more God conscious than the city people. Because they see God in everything in nature. Maybe it’s not specific, maybe it’s not monotheistic, but at every moment there’s somehow another seeing God. While the city person maybe occasionally, you know, before they’re going to eat, before they go to bed, you know, and maybe on Sunday or Wednesday night, and we’re talking about the more strict ones, you know, like that. So they’re not going to get so much.
Yeah, so here it’s saying the Shastras said that being initiated in such a Sampradaya is a useless waste of time. So it’ll never enable one to understand the real religious principles. You can’t understand because you’re not actually connected. You know, it’s just like, like the car, if you don’t turn it on, you know, the kid’s sitting, vroom, vroom, yeah, hey, you know, you know, kid’s out of hell. You know, it’s not exactly happening, you know, like that. They get some feeling and all that, but it’s not the feeling of actually driving the car. So that’s what they’re getting. They’re creating something, you know, you know. Like Indian apple? Yeah, yeah, like an Indian apple. Yeah, like an Indian apple.
I mean, you will get the real taste of sawdust, but, you know, you won’t get the actual real taste of an apple.
Okay.
Śrīla Bhaktivinoda, okay, so, therefore, when they talk, when the śāstra talks about re-initiation, this is what it means. You’ve taken initiation into one of these lines. That’s, it’s useless. So, therefore, you take re-initiation into a bona fide line. It’s only called re-initiation because it might be the same kind of initiation, or you use the same terminology. But once you’re initiated into a bona fide line, there’s no need of re-doing that. Right? Just like, like Baladeva’s initiated in the Madhva -sampradaya, but when he came, you know, surrendered to Lord Caitanya, he didn’t get re-initiated because he’s already connected to Viṣṇu. That’s the whole point. Now, which aspect of Viṣṇu? Now, by the teachings is what gets you because the initiation ceremony, according to Pancaratra, is the same. It doesn’t matter where you’re trying to go. It connects you to Viṣṇu. That’s the teachings and the mood that connect you to the specific spot within the spiritual world. Does that make sense?
Diksha, does that have specifically a lot to do with culture rather than philosophy? Diksha is… No, well, Diksha is just the formalized philosophy. So, culture is formalized philosophy. Right? Philosophy is the reason behind or the explanation of the culture. So, they’re non-different. It’s just like the masculine-feminine principle. They’re non-different. At the same time, they’re different. So, the point is the philosophy is the primary and the culture is the support. How do you express philosophy? If I accept Krishna as the Supreme Lord, how do I apply that through the culture? Right? Now, why do I follow this culture? Because Krishna is the Supreme Lord. You understand? So, you can’t separate them.
You can separate them, but then you get sentimentalism or mental speculation. Neither of them too special. Of course, if you’re into karma, then sentiment is great, and if you’re into jnana, then mental speculation is great. So, you know, hey, everybody’s happy. But if you actually want to taste Krishna consciousness, then both is recommended. So, are there cultural differences between the four Sampradayas? Yeah, that you’ll see. Because the point is, if things are based on awe and reverence and that, therefore the formalization, like in the Madras and Shrees, Varna Ashram is actually part of their process. Rupa Goswami mentions because by Samacharis, that’s why he’s saying it’s due to the taste. So, when Ramanuja, when they’re defining the nine processes of devotion, then when you say dasyam, that for them means Varna Ashram. You know, you’re taking your position and engaging in the Lord’s service. That also will mean the element of just that mood of I am the Lord’s servant, and so as the Lord’s servant, I’ll engage the Varna Ashram, my position in the Lord’s service. But Rupa Goswami mentions that we don’t interpret it that way. Dasyam is simply that mood of connecting whatever I have connected to the Lord. It’s the same thing, but we drop the importance of the Varna Ashram as a medium of expression.
You know what I’m saying? We use it because that’s a social system. Does that make sense? You know, it’s just like to be a cook. You know, someone’s a good cook. Does he have to have the knives and the apron and you know, the whole thing? You know, he’s got his pot and that. No, but there are some cooks who do. You know, it’s just, you know, without the right knives you can’t, you know, how do you cook? How do you express? And then there’s, you know, there was one I heard about and it was a show, I think in England, where the whole show was about this top chef. He would go to the supermarket, right, just ordinary supermarket, and then when the people would go to the line they’d have all their stuff in their basket, you know, their little trolley. He’d go up to them and introduce himself and say, I want to come to your house and whatever you have in your basket, cook that. And show how to make, you know, gourmet stuff. Because his whole point was anybody can cook gourmet stuff. That’s his point. You know, that’s his angle on it. Right? While others just know you have to have the whole thing. You go in and they have the whole kitchen and the whole thing and all the, you know, the chef, the sous chef, the, you know, what do you call it? The, you know, the bucket washer. You know, everybody has to be there, you know. How do you say it? The plonger.
Plonger. You know, like that. You know, it’s like, you know, the guy who mops and cleans. You got to have the whole thing, right? You know. Then, then that’s cooking, you know. So the point is this. It’s all cooking but it’s a matter of taste.
Does that make sense? So the one is that’s the form and then within this form we’ll do spontaneous things. The other is about the spontaneous so therefore we’ll engage the forms.
It’s just taste. Both are top chefs. Both are excellent cooks.
All right. Does that make sense? So that’s the difference between Vaikuntha and Goloka.
Does that make sense? It’s just taste.
Right now.
So Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur identifies 13 apasampradayas that split away from the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Brahma -Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya after Lord Caitanya’s appearance. Aul, Bhau, Kartabhaja, Neda, Dharavesa, Shani, Sahajiya, Shaki -Bheki, Smarta, Jada-Goswami, Ativadi, Chudadhari and Goranganagari. These apasampradayas, apa means deviated, are like parasitical growths upon the great tree of the Sankirtana movement.
Because they exhibit all the defects of material conditioning, they are spiritually useless. The rasa, the quote-unquote rasa relished by such groups is termed prakrita-rasa by Srila Bhaktivedanta Saraswati Thakur. So in other words, it’s material taste. They’re supposedly doing their devotional activities, but the taste they’re gaining from it is material. It’s not actually spiritual. They’ll say it is, but it’s not. Those who actually know rasa know it’s not and can identify.
Their missionary activities are condemned as cheating. So in other words, their preaching and everything like that is deemed as cheating. That’s why we see Bhaktivedanta Thakur had the nama-hatta, so everybody could be connected. Jayapitaka Maharaj then used that for village preaching. Because we’d go in, cultivate a village, you know, the nama-hatta and that, and waiting for them to get initiated, you know, sixteen rounds and everything like that. But before that would happen, when they get nicely situated, then these apasampradayas would know that here’s a good village, you know, they’re very pious, they’re really like that. They’d come in and then just say, who wants to get initiated, and initiate the whole village. So he started the thing, you know, you come in, you know, that you kind of, you surrender to the instruction of, you know, Prabhupada, and Lakshita, then you’re chanting four rounds, then you’re chanting eight rounds, twelve rounds, then you’re chanting twelve. So you give a name to each. So as soon as they start to chant, then in their mind, I’m connected with this sampradaya, even though they’re not initiated. And so that way, then the other sampradayas can’t come in. Yes? So you’re saying that people in the apasampradayas, they are doing material activities? No, no, not the other sampradayas, the other, within the apasampradayas. Oh, right. The other sampradayas, they’re bona fide Vaisnavas, and they’re worshipping, you know, the Lord, according to their particular taste. So in the apasampradayas, they’re doing what they consider devotional activities, and they think they’re getting devotional, devotional output, but it’s actually material. So isn’t that the same as a Vaisnava doing a devotional activity, but they’re still materially contaminated, therefore their experience of it is material? No. It means it’ll be mixed. Theirs is not mixed devotional service. Theirs just isn’t. And they can’t tell the difference?
And can kids tell the difference between, you know, hot cuisine? All they know is that, you know, if it’s got ketchup on it, it’s good.
That’s… See is…
Do you kind of catch that someone who’s a Vaishnava is special? Okay. So why would you want to put them in the same category as a materialist?
No, but why are you?
We don’t want to, but we did it. You know, that would make you do it.
Okay.
Okay. So either very clever or very smart. One or the other. So is that… So the point is, is that the devotee is performing devotional activity, but it’s mixed with the mundane. So that’s why we say there’s pure devotional service and mixed devotional service. But the mix is with pure devotional service. But they don’t have devotional service. It’s just mundane.
Yeah, yeah.
So that’s the point, is that the devotee is performing activities of pure devotional service, but their attitude’s not pure, so therefore there’s a mix. The other ones, there is no devotional service. There is no connection. But they perform the activities like the Vaishnavas and say, I’m doing this. You know, it’s just like the little girls up in the attic, right? And there she’s found, you know, some high heels and she’s found, you know, her mother’s wedding dress and, you know, she’s taken Barbie and Ken up there. And it’s all happening, right? You know, this big wedding, it’s all, but is there any wedding going on? No. You know, is there anything, you know, that’s important or that, you know? No. So that’s what’s going on. They just say, yeah, yeah, we’re doing this, get together, you know, like that, but it’s not happening.
I’m just asking because sometimes I get scared that I’m doing that. The point is you’re in a bonafide line, so then it’s mixed devotional service. It’s not an apasampradaya. It means if you’ve got your own philosophy and want to start your own apasampradaya, that’s another thing, right? The point is there’s pure devotional service and there’s mixed, so we try to remove the mixed. But that’s why it means, I just heard today, Prabhupada’s mentioning in Bhagavatam, that if the scriptures are correct, if we’re following the scriptures and coming in sampradaya, what we’re doing is correct whether we fully understand it or not. But by time we get purified and we’re able to understand. Just like the child and the family, they do what they’re told. They don’t know why they’re supposed to do it. Right? You can explain, maybe they understand, maybe they don’t. Right? But when they get older, then they understand that the practices are there because they’re in the proper line, so then they come out like that. Does that make sense? Yeah.
So, those practicing in the proper sampradaya, would they not be quite upset and maybe offended to hear what we’re saying about how what they’re doing has got nothing to do with Krishna consciousness, has got nothing, it’s mundane and it’s material and there’s no future for them in doing what they’re doing. Wouldn’t they think, well, they’re just the same. Everybody thinks they’re just the same. Go down to the prison and talk there that they’re criminals. Do they want to be called a criminal? Come on. They’re just, they just, you know, the world’s tough in that they tried to do the, you know, the practical thing and it didn’t work out for them. They got caught. They’re in jail. But, you know, all the other guys, they’re not.
You know what I’m saying? So, I mean, what’s the worry?
I mean, excuse me, one second. Just to confirm, just to make sure because I was Anybody here is from an upper sampradaya?
You might feel offended that we’re saying you’re not connected. Yeah. No? At least they’re keeping their mouths shut. Okay. So, at least for political correctness, they’re not going to show that they’re upset. Not here. Okay. You know what I’m saying? Here we’re talking. When you’re talking to one of them, then you talk about chanting and this and that. But the point is, they’re engaged in activities with us, then they’re actually connected. When they’re out on their own, then they’re not.
You know what I’m saying? But the point is, as they’ve gotten from us stuff, they learn from us, then they’re doing, then it’s just, you know, very mixed devotional service. You know? But when they’re on their own, then they’re not connected. They have to be connected to a sampradaya, too. Like that. Does that make sense? But we say the same thing about, you know, I mean, we go through everything. You see the introduction to many of the Acharya’s books. The first thing they do is if you’re an atheist, you know, if you’re a moralist, if you’re a grammarian, you know, like this, if you’re, you know, you know, a Mayavadi or anything like this, then stop reading right now. Don’t read any further. Like that. You know? So it’s just, you know, what to do. You know, everybody, you know, thinks like that. Then there’s God. See, that’s the whole point. We can say, no, but it’s your opinion and our opinion. Yeah, of course, if it’s just your opinion and my opinion, you can go on forever. But it’s God’s opinion. Therefore, you know, you can’t really argue with that, you know.
But it’s just the way it is. You know, it’s just like saying, okay, the person is there, they spend, you know, millions of dollars in charity to help, you know, kids in Africa. Okay? Like that. But the point is, it’s still not spiritual.
It’s nice welfare work, but it’s still not spiritual. So will they be offended?
You know? You know, he’s the top Formula One racer. He’s won, you know, you know, how do you say, eight out of ten races this season. But that doesn’t make him a good cook. Is he going to be offended?
No. It’s a different thing. It’s two different, you know, it’s just that. But, you know, these guys might because they really think they’re in the South to die. You know, as Bhaktivinoda Kaur has pointed out, he’s 13. I don’t think we have 13 here. Because many of them go into groups. So you have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. So some of them go together with the prakritis, the hajis, I think the bowels, owls and bowels, they go together. Because they’re kind of like, we have brahmacharis, brahmacharis, grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyas, they have their kind of like levels, that, you know, when you’re a brahmachari then you call this, and when you have a partner you call this, when you’re retired you call, so like that. So they’re kind of the same group.
So I think they’ve been dealt with like that. Is that okay? You know, it’s just, in other words, if you’re talking to a prakriti, it’s a haji, you don’t necessarily tell him that he’s a nonsense.
You know, like that. Yes? Doesn’t it mean that there is an artist, he’s not a devotee, and he hears maha -mantra from both Sampradaya and Tapasampradaya, he will get only benefit from chanting when he hears from Sampradaya? Right. His point is this, mantra is there, but what’s the life of the mantra? It’s just syllables. So unless the chit potency is there, how it gives spiritual potency. So it’s the Sampradaya that gives the potency.
Like that. The words don’t, it’s not that the words or the action, it’s that it’s connected. You know what I’m saying? So let’s say you’re managing. So it means there are really good managers in this world. But unless it’s connected to the Sampradaya, it doesn’t give spiritual benefit. You know what I’m saying? So to see that something is bona fide, we have to go to the source. Yeah, yeah. You have to see, you know, that it’s connected to the Acharyas and it’s following their teachings. You know, the mood in their teachings. Because otherwise if they’re doing something else, then… Yeah.
Well, it depends what they do. If they come, take darshan, take charanamrita, sit down and chant and then leave, fine. But if they start rolling on the ground and howling and that, then we generally don’t let them do that.
You know, they get upset, but what to do?
You know, if you’re creating the whole temple room getting upset, or them getting upset, better they get upset.
Yes.
Yes.
Means you get… means, but what’s the point? You know what I’m saying? These points that are being made, it’s like the other day we had the same problem. What do you want to establish here? So even if they’re getting some benefit, little benefit, is it the same as the unlimited ocean of bhakti that you can get from that name?
So then the point is, it means the person goes out and appreciates that this natural beauty is so beautiful.
They’re getting benefit and getting purified because that beauty is Krishna. That’s why they feel good. Why do you think that the aboriginals, even though they’re so sinful, are seemingly have a certain element of very innocence or purity? It’s because they’re purified because they acknowledge and accept that potencies of God. Someone accepts, oh, they see, you know, there the fireman went in and he’s working hard, he’s sacrificing, and they appreciate that. They get purified. Why? Because sacrifice is Krishna.
So the point is, is there’s nothing in this world that’s not connected to Krishna that people aren’t getting benefit from. The point is, is do you want to get spiritual results from it? Purified. Mayavadis are purified. You don’t go to the Brahman if you’re not purified. They perform nice karma. You go to these Mayavadi people, if they’re sitting amongst grihasthas, they’re preaching nice karma. Do your duties without attachment. They’re saying exactly the same thing we’re saying. They just leave out the bhakti part.
You know what I’m saying? So, they’re saying exactly the same thing. You know, if you don’t do nice work, behave nicely, interact, you don’t get to the heavenly planets. The point is, is for all of these people’s nice work, all they’re going to get to is the heavenly planets, at best, or the brahmajyoti. That’s it. They’re not going to get any better. But we’re offering them pure bhakti that’ll get them back to Godhead. There is nothing here that’s not God. And it’s not the interaction with it. Right? Why are you not falling through the floor? Right? That was Hume’s nightmare.
Right? Because God is holding it up. Ananta. And why are you sitting here? Why aren’t you bumping your head on the ceiling? Because Ananta’s there.
You know, so why would they be so, you know, he’s so absorbed. Why would he find taste in being absorbed and trying to figure out gravity? Because he’s absorbed in the potency of Ananta. Or why do the physicists, you know, space? And they get so much taste because that’s the adhara shakti. You can’t get taste out of dead matter. It’s just that there’s no taste for the living entity. So all that they’re getting taste out of Krishna’s potencies.
Right? You know, the ladies are sitting around at three o’clock, you know, ironing their clothes and watching the soapy. Right? And they’re sitting there in so much emotion and everything like that. Where is that taste coming from? Because that element of romance or relationships, that’s Krishna.
That’s why they’re getting taste. You know, the other ones, it’s the action or the guy’s out, you know, riding his, you know, motorcycle off a cliff or something and it’s exciting. Why? Because the excitement, the adventure, that’s Krishna.
There’s nothing that no anybody’s doing and getting a taste from that’s not Krishna. There isn’t anything. There’s no such thing as that. But we don’t identify that as devotional service. There is only God, so you can only interact with God. The difference is devotional means you’re interacting with God knowingly with trying to please God. Right? The impersonal is knowingly not trying to please God. Right? And then material means not knowingly trying to please yourself.
That’s what’s actually going on. So there is no such thing. So all these things to find out, well, do they get a little bit of, of course, it’s said that the Muslim guy, he’s saying haram. Right? You know, and he’s getting, because he says Rama, he gets benefit, it’s nama bas. But the point is this, that’s just generic. Where’s the offense?
Right? It’s not devotion, that’s the thing, it’s God, but he’s not being offensive. But the Mayavadi, he’s actually offensive because these names are actually just, they don’t have any meaning. So if you hear it from the Mayavadis, then it’s not going to be beneficial. But if you just hear it’s a general thing, then they’ll get some benefit. You know, that all these yoga studios are chanting Hare Krishna and all that. It means there’s more preaching of Hare Krishna going on than we’re doing in the yoga world. You know, it’s sad to say, but yes. Right? But, so the point is, is it’s going on. So it’s nice that they’re doing it. So, you know, it’s pious and everything, but it’s not connected to Sampradaya. They’re not getting any benefit more than they’re getting purified. But now, because they like to chant, then if we’re chanting, they’ll happily come to our yoga studio and hear our chanting. Then they’ll start to get bhakti-sukrti.
You know what I’m saying? But if they’re against chanting, they won’t come and chant with us. You know what I’m saying? The person’s vegetarian, then they’ll like taking our food. But if they’re vegan, they won’t eat our food. You know, they don’t get spiritual benefit.
You know what I’m saying? So the point is, is it’s all these pious elements are only valuable in as much as they’ll be interested to take part in service to the Lord.
That’s the limit. So everybody’s getting some benefit. You know, the little kid kneeling in his bed at night, and God, please, you know, protect Mommy and Daddy and, you know, my little baby sister and, you know, please, you know, let me do well in my exams tomorrow. He’s getting benefit. He’s turning to God. But is that pure devotion?
No. But the point is, is because of that, then he may be open to coming in contact with the devotees. So there’s nothing anybody’s not doing to. The guy, the gang, there are gang members and that, and they’re having a shootout with the other guys. You know, and then, you know, the head guy gets shot, but he’s out in a place where he’s, you know, it’s a little dangerous. The other guys could get to him, but what if his juniors runs out to risk his life to get him and pull him in? You know, like that. He gets benefit because he’s made that sacrifice. You know, if it’s a gang member, he’s going to get only a little bit. If that was a Brahmin, he’d get a lot. You know? You know what I’m saying?
So that’s the whole point is that benefit is there in anything that is dealing with superior qualities. It’s always there. But the point is, is whether it’s coming in contact with the Lord and the proper sampradaya, that’s when you start to get real benefit. You know, just like kids born in the family of devotees. They’re called samanya-bhaktas or, you know, they’re not sampradaya. Their parents are sampradaya devotees, but the kids aren’t. They’re just born in devotee families. So, therefore, the family is chanting Hare Krishna. They’re chanting. They’re taking prasadam and chanting. If they were born in a karmic family, they’d be eating karmic food and not chanting Hare Krishna. So they’re doing devotional service, but not on their own commitment. You understand? As they themselves commit to it, that’s when that transformation takes place. And then when they surrender to the authority of, you know, the sampradaya, that’s then when they become sampradaya. But otherwise, they’re counted as devotees. You understand? So, everything is designed as beneficial for the living entity. Do you know what I’m saying?
Haribo.
Yeah, of course. It’s nama-bhas. They get benefit. Of course, don’t eat the candies, because I think they’re not vegetarian, but, yeah. Not a matter of prasadam. I don’t think they’re offerable, but… No. Huh? They have a sweet thing. Yeah, yeah. But the point is everybody gets benefit from chanting Haribo. It’s just like… In America, it was big in the 50s and 60s. I mean, even I’ve seen it in Europe sometimes, the East Bloc. You have some kind of a big program. So, you have a telerama, you know, or, you know, like that. So, they get benefit. That’s why they like it, because it’s actually nama-bhas. They’re getting some benefit. But the point is, they still won’t understand devotional service till they come in contact with the devotees. But the point is, these are all innocent. But when you hear it from a Mayavadi, they don’t think it’s spiritual. Therefore, that’s polluting. So, you don’t want to hear from the Mayavadis.
Yes, sir.
In the analysis, this Upasampradayas, why does the religious like Christianity, Islam, have been housed… Well, this is… What we’re talking here is Brahma Sampradayas.
These Upasampradayas from our line. That’s what the studies specifically are. So, it doesn’t deal with what the other religions have been… Not in this text. That’s the other text. It means in this study, this part of the study, that means the previous one, that’s dealing with that. That’s just showing philosophies. But the point is, it’ll come up because the point of painting, making the…
Kartabhaja means making the guru into God. So, that basically, you could say, is Christianity in a nutshell. Right? So, that’s… That’s that aspect of the Self-Awareness. So, all these things apply wherever they apply. You take them and apply them where they apply. It’s just like, let’s say, I show you, you take a piece of wood, you cut this part like this and this other part like that and you put it together and it makes a corner. So, like this, you can use it, let’s say, for making a door and you’re putting it together, you would use this joint. Can I use that on a window so it doesn’t have a corner? Yes. Okay. But what about on a bed? Yeah, of course. It’s a corner. But what about in a drawer? That’s also square. Would we use that? You understand the point?
The point is, is that it’s the same thing, so, therefore, it’s the same technique.
Okay, let’s say, let’s say, I have two apples and I have another two apples. How many apples I have?
Not two apples, but five or four. Four, yes. Sure, not five.
It’s like that. In quantum, maybe you can have five.
That’s one thing. Schroeder’s craft’s alive or dead, but what happens if he’s out partying? What happens if he’s not in the box? What about that as an option? Right, so, okay. Now, what if we have two bricks plus two bricks? How many bricks? Two bricks plus two bricks. Yes. Okay, and what if we have Kubrick’s?
Kubrick’s plus Kubrick’s. Then what do we have?
A very long movie, right?
Okay, you understand? What if we have two shoes and another two shoes? How many shoes? Four. Okay, but did the mechanics of math change?
Yes, that’s the point. Yes, that’s exactly the point. In other words, Ampa-Sampradayas function in a certain way. Now, we’re just studying the ones in our Sampradaya, but the same thing applies. Other Sampradayas, have you ever heard of the Ramanandis? Sometimes you see them, you go to Kumbh Mela. They’re in Ampa-Sampradaya, I think, at the Sri’s.
They’re just there in Dharam, and they’re in the Sahasrara. But they’re actually Ampa-Sampradayas. So everybody else has their Ampa-Sampradayas also. It’s the same thing.
You understand? So everybody’s got their Ampa-Sampradayas. Christianity has their Ampa-Sampradayas.
Yeah, yeah. So they have all kinds of stuff. Everybody has it.
Does that make sense? Yes. You come to that aspect later on. No, that’s done in another study. This study is simply about the 13 Ampa -Sampradayas in the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya.
That’s this. The other work, when we’re studying Tattva-Viveka, that’s about world religions and philosophies.
It’s a different study, but the points remain. The point is, this is how it’s gone off the track. The other is, what is the philosophy behind it? What aspect of the modes of nature created this philosophy?
So putting those two together, you can deal with anything.
Is that okay? Yes.
