Bhagavad-gītā Thematic #52

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So, lesson 30. The next stage is to regulate habits, diet, practice fasting on special days such as the Kadasi, etc., because before it was that by Krsna’s grace only we can understand Him, we’ll do that through hearing from the spiritual master, and then somehow or another we connect ourselves to Krsna, right? So as we’ve made that attempt, we’ve connected, then it says the next stage is to regulate the habits, right? Because, right, you have sraddhas, sadhu, sangha, right? Next is bhajans.

6.14. So it’s 6.14 through 18. With an unagitated, subdued mind, devoid of fear, completely free from sex life, one should meditate upon Me within the heart and make Me the ultimate goal of life.

So, unagitated, yeah, means unagitated, subdued, devoid of fear that we understand who we are, what our relationship with Krsna is. We’re not afraid of, I am servant of Krsna. Because if you think about it, we’ll think, no, we’re not afraid of that. If we’re not afraid of it, then what is the element of not wanting to surrender, right? Because we know what to do. We know, I am servant of Krsna, this is what I should do, but this is actually what I’d like to do, right? So if we’re not afraid of, because we’re afraid of it because surrendering means all the things I’d like to do may not be always ideal. Sometimes they may match, sometimes not, you know? Does that make sense? So this devoid of fear means that something we’re working on, it simply means that we’re gradually, step by step, establishing that identity that I’m servant of Krsna, right? So that’s why in Bhava-savana, the first stage being, see? Yes, sravana-dasa. We hear about our relationship with the Lord, all right? And having heard about that, then we’re able to adjust with it, right? So sravana-dasa and varna-dasa means we adjust with it, we’re comfortable with it. So these stages, bhakti-siddhanta-saraswati-tattva, starts at the beginning of the devotional process, though it’s the first two stages of bhava-bhakti, because they’ve started back from when you heard, right? We hear about Krsna, we get faith, we associate with devotees, we surrender, right? So it started then, and gradually, gradually, by the time you get to bhava, then we’re nicely situated in it. Because the first point is that I fully accept I’m servant of Krsna, right? That’s the first thing. The second thing is, is, okay, within Krsna’s pastimes, I have this particular, you know, service. Does that make sense? But if you haven’t accepted this first part, the second part doesn’t mean anything.

Is that what you mean? Yes. All right. And being in Krsna consciousness for us means we at least accepted that we are Krsna’s servants? Yes, means intellectually we’ve accepted, and there is some degree that the mind has accepted, so the, you know, the emotions and that are connected with it, because we know ultimately it is, and the overall, but there’s sometimes little details, you know, like that, you know, that kind of thing. You know, it’s kind of like you’ve cleaned up the floor in your room and everything like that, and got all the toys out from under your bed, but you’ve kind of shoved them in a corner in the closet, you know, so it’s not, it’s, something is done, but it’s not complete, you know, you’re just praying that mommy doesn’t look in the closet, you know. Is that, is that, yeah. So like that, and then gradually, gradually, then one by one, all these things happen, you know, regular habits, diet, practice of fasting, all these things, they slowly come. We may like them, we may not like them, you know, or we may like, yeah, fasting, yeah, you know, because we’re tough and all that, and then when, you know, we get sick and we’re not so tough, then, you know, it’s a whole different… Or the day after the fasting, we go bananas and walk the dog. Yes, yes, yes. Balance, right? Fanatically, you know, I renounce, so fanatically, yeah.

Advancement is not possible without control of the senses. Krishna is the ultimate goal of life, and the Visnu-murti situated in one’s heart is the object of yoga practice. Because he’s there, and it’s whatever we’re doing, then he is in control of that, right? Because he’ll be Aniruddha, right? Paramatma is Aniruddha, who is, he’s the goal, right? Because in yoga practice, you want to attain Paramatma, so he’s the goal, prayoja, so that makes him Aniruddha. So whatever you’re trying to do with the mind, so he’s the one that the unagitated, subdued mind is focused on, right? That means, ultimately it’s Krishna, but what we’re saying in this process of purification, it’s Supersoul that we’re working with, right? Because Krishna we’re working with is on love. But when we’re dealing with all these aspects of sadhana and trying to control, that’s Paramatma. Because the Vrajabhasis aren’t sitting there and, you know, getting up and, you know, like that, and going, Wow, it’s, you know, it’s just, it’s so late at night, and, you know, I’ve been doing this every night, and it’s so tired, and I’d really like to sleep, but Krishna is blowing his flute, and it’s so nice being with him, but, you know, it’d be, no, that doesn’t happen, right? Does that make sense? You know, they’re not, not, they’re not worried about that, right? So, therefore, then they’re dealing directly with Krishna. Well, basically speaking is that the mood is directed to Krishna, and sometimes, you know, that mood will be nice, so it’s very dynamic, but when we’re wrestling with the process, or these things are looking at it through philosophy and intellectual and all that, then we’re dealing with Paramatma, right? But the nice, good thing about it is Krishna’s Paramatma, like that, so then we don’t have to worry, right? It’s just that we’re dealing with him in that way, so he reciprocates in that way.

Yes? You say that you don’t get tired if you’re dealing directly with Krishna? You don’t get tired if you’re dealing directly with Krishna? You could say that, but it’s also those who don’t get tired, then they deal direct, always deal directly with Krishna. You know, so it goes both ways, so dealing with Krishna, you wouldn’t get tired, but it’s a matter of the consistency of always being able to deal with Krishna, like that. So that’s why when we’re practicing, then it’s not as consistent, and it’s coming up to a stage of consistency. But when it’s in, how do you say it, fala-bhakti, or when you’ve gotten the result, then there’s no need of practice, one is situated there, so it’s always consistent. Because that’s what’s looked at. Fala-bhakti means just being on and off, being on the liberated platform and off the liberated platform, that’s what we call sadhana-bhakti, that takes us up to asakti. When we’re always on the liberated platform, but it’s a matter of being always absorbed in Krishna or not, that’s fala-bhakti, so that’s why it’s a sadhana. But it’s sadhana that’s different from the kanistha and madhyama stages of sadhana, so it’s in its own category. Then when it comes to prema, then that’s permanent. So that means our focus on Krishna, that affection is always consistently directed at Krishna.

To realize this Visnu-murti within the heart, one has to observe complete abstinence from sex life. Therefore, one has to leave home and live alone in a secluded place. Remain in seating, as mentioned above. So this is the sixth chapter, so we’re dealing with the yoga process. In other words, for it to be fully… Because here, sex life has a broader meaning. Because here it says abstain from sex, you could easily say that sex life means… Sex means that it’s…

There’s a lifestyle that goes with it. So therefore, the facilities for it, all the different aspects that go along with it.

When that is not there, then one can fully focus on the Lord. So it’s basically the lower levels of consciousness that are not there? Yeah, you could say, but basically you could say is that… Another would be is that, that which is not connected to Krishna. It means, in other words, the indirect no longer exists as indirect.

You know what I’m saying? In other words, you’re not starting with yourself and some need you have, or some desire, or some conditioning you have. Then dovetailing that in Krishna’s service.

Once it’s dovetailed, then that’s a problem, because then it’s no longer sex life. But there’s that process of getting it from material conditioning to the devotional process. Which is all the techniques that have been given in these chapters. These first six chapters give these techniques. And how to start with that and connect it. Once it’s connected, it’s not a problem. Like we see the Pandavas, they’re having children. So it’s not that. But sex life here means it’s the lifestyle that goes along where it’s actually sex is a prominent element of it. So that means gross, that will generally think, but also subtle distinction, adoration, and profit.

So here when we’re talking about realizing the Vishnu-murti, we’re talking about the whole package. So even if one is not having sex, but the one is worried about prestige and profit, facility, all these different things, then that’s still the subtle aspects of it. So that’s why it’s said the next stage is to regulate habits, diet, and practice fasting. Because that will bring one to that platform of being freed from, in this case, sex life. Because the whole material world is called by Tuna Agara, the shackles of sex life. It says everything about it. It’s just anything, the prestige. So, na dhanam na janam na sundarim.

This means that one’s freed from those desires. One has the proper attitude, humility, tolerance, respect of others, not expecting for yourself. And you’ve removed the desire for material…

you know, that endeavor. Then… Then we can fully surrender to Krishna.

Right? Does that make sense? So it’s just… it’s natural. So that means, basically speaking, by Ruchi, then this is accomplished.

Right? So this means you could take this at the ideal, because in yoga practice, this will be here very direct, because in yoga practice, this Ashtanga Yoga, there can be no sex life. So there is no grihasta, Ashtanga Yogi. You understand? Even if he’s a grihasta, there is no sex life. Right? Like you see, who was it? I think Atri and his wife. And they went to… For 60,000 years, they did meditation on the Supersoul. Seeing the Supersoul, then they come to the platform of devotion. Then they go back and practice their grihasta life. So they got married, then to prepare for proper married life, then they went out to the forest for 60,000 years, meditated on the Supersoul. Then they came back to their household life. You understand? So during the yoga practice, there is no room for that. So that means, just like in devotional service, there’s no room for thinking of something else. But it doesn’t mean that we’re not starting with that which would make us think of something else. Right? That’s the process of karma yoga and jnana yoga. We’re starting with what does distract us.

Then, through the intellectual process or emotional process, we connect that to Krishna. Right? Then, it’s free from sex life. Does that make sense? So the meditation happens when you’re meditating on Krishna, not when you’re meditating on other things. It’s just practical. Right? It means one could take this and say, yes, this is all bogus nonsense, the only devotional… You could do that, but that’s not what it’s meaning. Because if you’re doing that, then there’s the element of prestige that, yes, we’re brahmacharis, so therefore we’re situated better. So that’s still the subtle aspect of the sex life.

You know what I’m saying? Better, right? The subtle is a better situation than the gross. But unfortunately, the gross is a manifestation of the subtle.

So one’s not careful in continuing the process, the subtle turns into the gross. Yeah, it just goes back and forth. So that’s all. It’s a cycle. Maya knows how to keep you busy. So she gives different varieties. Yes, I’m so renounced. Aren’t I so good? It goes back the other way. And so it just keeps swinging back and forth.

Therefore, one has to leave home and live alone in a secluded place, remaining seated, as mentioned above. So here, it means we have the brahmachari vanaprasthanyas, and that’s a matter of its leaving home. So vanaprastha may be with the wife, but it’s not exactly home. Right? It means that you have that element, but that element is not being cultivated. Right? Because the wife is there, you know, it’ll be a nice environment. But you’re not cultivating the nice environment. You’re just maintaining, you know, to some degree, whatever is useful. What was already there from what was cultivated is a grihastha. Right? So it’s not about the wife anymore. Because what makes a house a home is it’s about the wife. So it’s about all the things, how she wants to make it and have it all work nicely. Right? So it’s a nice environment. Now it’s sadhana is the center of attention. So it’s not about the husband. It’s not about the wife. Right? Some vanaprasthas think, okay, vanaprastha, now it’s all about me. I’m the man now. I can be the man all those years having to, you know, do what the wife says and all that. I wanted to put on this shirt. She said, put on that shirt. You know, like that. Now I can put on whatever shirt I like. You know? White. Yeah, it’s like that. So it’s like… Does that make sense? So, it’s not about that, because it’s not about either. Grihastha life is about that. Vanaprastha means, it’s not about that. Right? So therefore, brahmachari vanaprastha sannyasa, it’s not about, one is not in the home. One’s in a secluded place. Secluded means it’s secluded from material engagement. Right? Remaining as seated above means situated in devotional service. Does that make sense? Good. So therefore, the grihastha ashram is the more delicate of all the ashrams to see that one is situated devotionally. But, at the same time, it’s the only one that affords dealing with a broad range of desires. The other three don’t accommodate it. They just don’t have the facility.

So therefore, it’s very useful to get one to that stage. Does that make sense? Right? Brahmachari ashram is necessary to prepare so that you are actually able to engage the grihastha ashram. Right? Or vanaprastha sannyasa. In other words, brahmachari is the foundation of the other three ashrams. Right? Without brahmachari, without training, the other three ashrams aren’t possible. Good? Does that make sense? So that’s why, in the beginning, those who aren’t from the Vedic background, there’s always difficulty with these other three ashrams in the beginning until, you know, practice. But the devotional process is so perfect that it itself is so powerful that one gains the qualification to follow these other three even if the training is not so proper. You can get trained within it. It doesn’t work as well. You know, it’s more crazy. But it does work. You know? Does that make sense? So therefore, it’s very clear that when we say these things, it’s not a matter of, well, that’s, you know, okay, that was before, but now it’s Kali Yuga, or now we have to be practical, everybody’s married. No. The point remains. We always… This is something to be very careful about is that what Prabhupada’s talking about always applies. What Krishna talks about, you just have to know the context to apply it.

You know what I’m saying? Let’s say you’re at a printing press. Right? And then they have all the papers and they have a ream of paper, and it goes into a machine, into a guillotine, and that guillotine cuts all the pages square. So you’re talking about, you know, something this big. Monstrous. Very powerful. It’s a cutting edge, and it cuts the thing. Same time as the housewife is sitting there with a nice little paring knife and peeling a tomato.

The principle implies it’s the same. But the application in one is very industrial, very big, very powerful. There’s no subtleties about it. And the other one has all the fineness and the art and all the other things. But it’s still the principle remains that the knife is sharp, it cuts.

Does that make sense? So as we saw here, as we’re dealing with this element, just the sex life, what that means. Because the brahmachara is sitting there and it’s the kirtan, they’re playing the drum, and you see the shoulders going like that. That’s not what the Gaudia application of music means.

Because according to Barrett Mooney, there’s a smile on the face, it’s very pleasant. It looks like effortless. You look at them and think, hey, I could do that. It looks so easy. But if it looks like, wow, I could do that, that’s so tough. Then that’s dealing with this two-word thing. Does that make sense? So it means it hasn’t been purified. But it’s engaged in Krishna’s service. It’s just a matter of time that will be purified and will go away. If the focus is there, sincerity is there. Then it will go away. Because it’s engaged. In devotional service it’ll go away. If it’s not devotional service, the Vedic system, it won’t take it away. Not in one lifetime. You’ll have to go through thousands of lifetimes to get rid of it. But devotional service in one lifetime could get rid of it. Does that make sense? So it always applies. Yes, something.

This is in a secluded place. This is meant to be free from material engagement. Yes. You can sit in some city in your bed and they just don’t engage in some of your things in a secluded place? Yes. Secluded means when you’re just thinking of Krishna. But if you go to the forest, what are you thinking of? Mosquitoes, the flies. If the storm’s going to come, will the lions, tigers and bears come at night and eat you? Like that. I saw this one cartoon thing. It had an igloo. The Inuit home. And there were two polar bears. They’d just bitten off the top. And the one would say to the others, I love these. Crunchy on the outside, soft on the inside. Like that.

So just that one’s out in what we call nature that’s secluded, it doesn’t mean that our mind will be focused on the Lord. The idea is that if you’re in the city or in these environments, you’re surrounded by those things that are distracting you. Not that they’re distracting, but those are the things that you have a desire for. You surround yourself with that. So by going out into the forest, then there’s none of that there, so then the idea is then you can focus. But the problem is there’s every chance we take with us those desires out there. We have our 4×4 muscle truck and we have everything that you could possibly want out in the forest there, in the back of your truck. You just put down the back, put up the barbecue, it’s all happening. You’ve got your freezers, you’ve got your beer. So they haven’t actually gone to a secluded place. So it means if we’re going to take secluded here, we don’t mean out on one of our Iskan farms. We just take our city life and take it out there and turn it into suburbia. That’s not secluded place. Secluded means there’s nothing there that distracts you from Krishna consciousness.

So that is more naturally accomplished in a simpler environment. So even if one is in the city, you try to make your house more simple, that everything is more streamlined and it’s all to Krishna and you can understand either directly or indirectly its connection. Because generally speaking, there’s a good chance there could be at least two to three times more stuff in our house than we actually require.

I’m just saying on an average thing, but generally if we go by the main formulas, it’s going to be nine times what we require.

Yes? Maharaj, I’ve always had the impression that secluded means being alone, but in this context, from what I’m getting out of what you said, that if one were to situate himself in a temple amongst the buildings, that can also be considered as secluded. That’s secluded, yes. Because the point is everyone’s chanting japa, everyone’s focusing like that, so you’re in a secluded place. Secluded means away from material thought, away from material endeavor, desire, you know, the whole material process. So in this case, sex life, means that you don’t have any identity with it, you don’t have any desire, you don’t have any goals, you don’t have any endeavors, so there’s no material endeavor. Does that make sense? So that’s secluded. So you could be sitting in your home, you could be sitting in your office, anywhere where you are, and that mood is you’re thinking of Krishna and that, you’re in a secluded place. Right?

And it’s all going great, and then the kids go from the back seat, go, are we there yet? You know, and then you find you’re not in a secluded place.

So secluded means what you do with it. Means you have the, of course, in the Vedic system, you always have a situation, and there’s always greater and lesser ideal situations. But it’s what you do with the situation that’s more important.

So you could be, you know, focused on Krishna in the city or completely absorb the material thought in the country. Right? So, but the point is, it’s being absorbed in Krishna that you want. So, if you can arrange it that, okay, if I’m in this environment, it doesn’t work so good, but let’s say I’m at home, it doesn’t work so good, but I go to the temple and it does, then that’s what one does. You know? Does that make sense? You know, somebody, they want to clear their head, what do they do? They go out for a walk or for a drive or something to just get away so that they’re not in their normal environment of distraction. Because so many things are there, it’s hard to think of Krishna. But if all those elements that distract you, you’ve connected to Krishna, then you’re always secluded. You see your kitchen, your living room, everything, all the elements within it, all connected to Krishna, you’re always in a secluded environment. So that’s why it’s said here, you reduce it down to what you can connect.

You know what I’m saying? If your house is full of chachkas, fine, as long as you can connect them all. But if it’s not, then you might consider various charities and sanitation engineers and other kind of help to… Be downsized. Yes, yes.

You had something?

Well, that was connected to what you said about the ashrams, because you see the sun, they just stick to one ashram, they don’t progress. Yeah, but what do you mean by progress? They don’t go through the ashrams, they maybe just stay on the That’s fine, but you’re already situated in transcendence. So what’s the requirement? You can say, there will be that one that says, one has to be fully satisfied. Yeah, fully satisfied. Point is, if one is situated as a brahmachari, just remains that way, that’s fine. Narada Muni is a brahmachari, so, you know, can’t be that bad, you know, like that. And, you know, his friend, I think, what’s his name, Parvata Muni, he’s like a vanaprastha, so he’s just situated there. You know, these different… The point is, the one you don’t want to remain at is grihastha, that has to progress to vanaprastha.

Like that. Because as grihastha, it’s dangerous. So brahmachari doesn’t necessarily need to progress to sannyasa? No, he doesn’t. That’s what it said. Brahmachari does not have to go to vanaprastha, sannyasa. And for brahmachari, you don’t have to go to vanaprastha to go to sannyasa. You know, like that. So, but it’s important that grihastha goes from grihastha to vanaprastha. Vanaprastha simply means, in this case, is everything’s been connected. It means, as a grihastha, if everything is connected, like the pandavas, there’s technically no need to move on to the next, but they will anyway. Because they’re only doing their duties as kings to set a good example. But part of setting a good example is that when they reach, you know, maturity, means old age, then you move on to the next ashram anyway. Right? Because no one will complain if you do it at that time. Right? Because if you do it earlier, then people will get grumpy. So you do it at that time.

Right? Yes.

Brahmachari ashram is like a training for the other three ashrams. Does it mean that, you know, brahmachari should be trained how to be a grihastha? What does that mean, how to be a grihastha? Like, you know, be responsible to help their families. Be responsible, let’s say, there’s an abhishek for Janmashtami and he’s in charge of that. Is that responsible?

Yes. Means he has, you know, it’s his duty to see the brahmachari ashram is clean. Is that responsible? You know, he has to get himself out of bed at, you know, four o’clock every morning. You know, somebody else is not going to tell him. Or if they do, then they’re not necessarily so nice. So, you know what I’m saying? Yes, it’s quota of books to distribute. Is that responsible?

You understand? Responsible is responsible. The point is, responsible for a woman, what grihastha ashram is putting into that is you’re only responsible because you’re attached.

You understand? So because of that you’re adding the mind to it, which wasn’t there as a brahmachari. Brahmachari is intellectual. You know that this is good. It’s good for spiritual life. Therefore, that regulation I’ll follow. Therefore, I’m responsible. But it’s intellectual. But because it’s intellectual, therefore, we don’t take it as seriously. Right? Means, you know, the academics. It’s all theory. Right? Because the emotions aren’t involved. So when the emotions are involved, then we say it’s real. But actually, it’s the other way around. The brahmacharis are actually responsible. The grihastha is very responsible. But only because he’s attached. He’s not attached. He’s not responsible.

You know what I’m saying? He’s very attached. So therefore, you know, every month, you know, he says, you know, every month that he gives a girl something and, wow, what’s this for? Oh, it’s our, you know, third month anniversary and all that. You know, but after they’re married he doesn’t even remember, you know, when the anniversary is, you know, what universe it was in and all that. You know what I’m saying? So when we say responsible, generally what we’re taking is due to false ego, is that we’re having to take on a lot more things than we actually were planning to or expected. So the point is it’s responsibility as a principle, not that is what is important.

The brahmachari, just like this, the brahmachari, he’s inconsiderate. He comes in at night into the brahmachari ashram, he was out late, so he flicks on the light. Right? So no one else can sleep. Why does he have to flick on the light? Because he doesn’t know where his stuff is. Why does he know where his stuff is? Because he’s not clean and organized. Right? But why is the grihastha man clean and organized? Because his wife doesn’t or she yells at him until he starts doing it. In other words, how much she’s willing to do, she does. How much she feels he should do, she will force him to do. But because he’s been forced, the grihastha man thinks he’s superior to the brahmachari. But he’s not. He’s by force. You can say, yes, he has learned that, and if he is responsible and dutiful enough that he stays through twenty-five years of that, he is trained in being that. He will do that on his own. As the Vānaprastha, even if he’s not with the wife, he will be tidy and orderly and do things because he’s understood his higher, fire purpose. But he didn’t get there through any glorious means. So there is no real position for the grihastha, especially not the young grihastha or middle grihastha, to think that their position of responsibility and training is greater than the brahmachari. It’s not. A mature grihastha or a Vānaprastha, you could say, yes.

But the only reason that they agreed to that training is due to attachment only.

You know what I’m saying? So, the point is, brahmachari means that they are clean and tidy. That means it’s pitch dark. He knows where all the stuff is. He can walk in like that. He doesn’t do that. And keeping all the stuff in little plastic bags that make noise, so he sits there rustling bags all night, then he doesn’t do that either because it bothers others.

Right? Because the other guys would just say something or throw a shoe at him or something like that. That’s where it ends. The wife won’t talk to him for three days. You know, that’s worse. You know what I’m saying? So we can say, well, the brahmacharis don’t learn because the grihastha wouldn’t learn also if all they did is the wife threw a shoe at him.

Unless, of course, it was a stiletto.

You understand? So, we have to see it in reality is brahmachari life in itself, if it’s done properly, that’s why I said Prabhupada said first class brahmachari means he’ll be a first class grihastha is he did get the training. Because the point is when we say the training to take care so it means training to pay bills or, you know, to not forget to buy the cauliflowers on the way home from work, that, you know, you should check in and let everybody know what you’re doing, that you should remember important, you know, dates and festivals and, you know, I’m saying, what do you mean?

You know what I’m saying? So the actual, it’s principles that you have to learn. Because detail, every grihastha, the actual exact details of his life are different. It’s unique. You know what I’m saying? They’re different, their wife is different, so it’s unique. But the principles are exactly the same. The principles of grihastha life are exactly the same as brahmachari. The only difference is they’re manifest through a wide range of applications that the brahmachari doesn’t have. So because of that lack of wide range, there may not be the maturity and application that the brahmachari has, that the brahmachari won’t have, that the grihastha will. But he only has that because of his attachment.

You understand? So that’s the thing that we miss.

Like that Vedic system, people know that. At least when I came to India, you know, up in the 80s, grihasthas know that. They know they’re attached, they know this and that. But they know it’s the situation they need to be in. So therefore the sadhus don’t have any problem with their grihasthas, grihasthas don’t have any problem with their sadhus. But those who don’t understand this, they don’t understand the drive for grihastha ashram, the drive for, much of the time, for leadership position is due to material desire. Then we have a thing of attending towards one position is superior to another. When the superiority of one to the other is its advancement in application. The grihastha is superior because he’s not applying all those brahmachari principles in a wide range of activities that the brahmachari is not. That’s his superiority. Not because he’s married and now he’s got an attitude.

It doesn’t make sense. Yeah. So is it easier for a grihastha to get realization than a brahmachari? It’s not necessary. The point is that naisthika brahmachari means he got the realization as a brahmachari. Upa-kurvana brahmachari means he has the same training, same knowledge, same experience, but the realization comes as a grihastha. That’s the difference. So the point is is the grihastha ashram is glorious in that if one applies the brahmachari training, one gets realization. The difficulty, we think brahmachari is one thing, grihastha is another, so we don’t apply the myths of this. Right? It’s like we think that, oh, okay, I’m under the control of the temple commander, but now as a grihastha I’m a free man. No, now you’re under the control of the wife. She’s a new temple commander. And she’s a little more exacted. Right? The other guy, as long as the floor was clean, he wasn’t worried about how tidy the BTG boxes were in the closet. She is. In fact, why are they BTG? They’re supposed to have two Gs on them. Yeah, so he’s only got one G, you know, like that’s supposed to be two Gs. Yeah.

Question.

Well, let’s just say what we said. They have to move on to vanaprastha. Vanaprastha doesn’t mean not being with the wife.

Vanaprastha has, you could probably say that there’s probably, I can say if I’ve heard of a whole bunch, this is maybe 10 or 15, 10, 15 different subtitles that are given to a vanaprastha depending on how he situates himself. So he’s either sapatniya, with the wife or without. He either takes his yajna things with him and does yajna every day like he did or he doesn’t. You know, he either goes out and collects grains in the fields or he begs or, you know, so many different things like that or he doesn’t, he doesn’t endeavor for anything.

So there’s all these different vratas that he will take to try to detach himself from his previous position. You know what I’m saying? Because generally we think of vanaprastha, the guys, he’s in sapatniya, he’s not a brahmachari because he’s kind of been through the grhastha ashram his ego’s too big to consider himself a brahmachari and he’s, you know, he’s trying to become a sannyasi but no one’s kind of recognized him yet so he’s kind of stuck in between. That’s not a vanaprastha. You know what I’m saying? Vanaprastha means he is working on giving up that drive towards all those things that were important to him as a grhastha because of attachment. Right? But he can continue doing those things that are connected to Krishna. So he was a good businessman, he’s a good man and he continues those but now instead of the business being you know, to buy that fourth car now he uses it for, you know, doing different kinds of service and things like that. Yes. I have one more question. We discussed so much of the topic but still I really wonder do you think our movement that many, quite many devotees young devotees, disciples already advanced stage in their age at 60, after 60 they still get married and do you think the implementation of devotional service is good? No, but the point is is what is what is the point? The point is regulate habits. The point is to that we want to remember Krishna so we remember Krishna by not forgetting him. That’s the first stage. Right? The second stage is we remember Krishna because we like remembering Krishna. We have an attachment to remembering Krishna. The reason that we forget Krishna is we have attachment to those things that we forget him by. Right? So the point is is there’s a natural method that all those things that you either by intellect get rid of all other distractions you know and with that on that from the platform of intelligence then follow those practices that will remove those naturally or or one engages them in Krishna service. Right? So the Vedic system has a method on how to go through that. You get training then you engage all the desires and retire from that and then then it’s just everything’s connected to the Lord. That’s the natural stage. So that’s it’s recommended in that way because there’s a time for everything. Right? You know it’s like that. Getting trained the younger you are the better because the ego’s less. In the grhastha life you still have to be young enough and have to be very energetic that you deal with all these things. Right? And then vipanaprastha those are generally the more mature cues there. Now if you do those in a different order it’s not ideal. Right? It’s not ideal to be 60 years old and have to worry about you know little things like you know every time you go out getting something and bringing something back and all these little things like that. You know calling every you know couple hours to make sure everything’s okay and you know all that kind of jazz. So that works nice when you’re young. When you’re older there’s it’s more of a maturity that you’re confident you know the other person’s there so you don’t have to worry about it. You know? So that’s why it’s natural that you do it in that order. But if they do it in a different order it’s not ideal. It’s going to be trouble. It’s not going to work as nicely if they did it in the recommended order. But the point is is see that these things are addressed. Right? If in other words if you thought it would work in this way nice if it didn’t then you make adjustments until it does.

Does that make sense?

Go ahead and think what you want. Yes. Oh here. Go again. If you said that Shudras never leave home Shudras never leave home. And us being lower than Shudras what’s the hope of We never actually get to the home. That’s the problem. That’s why you see there’s such a high divorce rate and other psychological but most of you look at most of the problems that humans have they’re all engendered into the ashram. We like to blame it on the brahmacharis sannyasis and you know leaderships and gurus but actually it’s that you know the kid has no respect for authority or has you know all these different problems because of what goes on in the home. You know what I’m saying? So that’s because we don’t actually attain to so if we say we’re lower than Shudras Shudras are human so at least they’re grihasthas you know so the malechas and yavanas they don’t necessarily get up to the human platform so that they can actually be grihasthas.

Okay so that was a side point now you’re at the actual so I’m saying that was What’s the hope? The hope is devotional service. That’s the point our only hope is devotional service that’s why we it’s only through devotional service we’re engaged in varanashram so devotees will say well it’s Krishna or varanashram you know which is it? You know like that which do you think is more important? Of course Krishna is more important but the only way that we can follow varanashram is through devotional service so if we’re not connecting to devotional service there’s no chance at all that we can follow varanashram so the only varanashram we can follow is daiva there isn’t an option for another you’re born in a nice traditional brahman you know shatya vaisya family here that follows all their traditions and it’s been going on for generations yes then you may have a problem in engaging varanashram because you’ll forget because you’re engaged in this nice sattvic environment that you don’t remember that material world’s bad you know so you walk in you know the house you know the servant’s there you know he just dropped you off in your limousine you know you walk in somebody’s there takes a coat and stuff big huge you know your foyer is as big as most people’s houses you know the mink vases are there and all the different things like that and then you know you walk down the hall you go to your private quarters you know even though you’re just a kid in the house you know you have your own room you have your own you know your own walk-in wardrobe you know it’s nice you know so what’s the problem? so where are you going to remember Krishna there? so but you’re doing all the things and you have that well because of varanashram but there’s no question that westerners following that where’s the training? where’s the where’s the piety? you know so the the the difficulty comes is the only way we can follow the material piety is because of devotional service so for us then daiva varanashram there is only daiva varanashram the other is not an option you know be like you know the guy the beggar in the street well you know you know I could just move into the the temple like this and be very renounced in that or you know I could engage my billions of dollars in Krishna’s service it’s like no you only have one option you know so the same with us is our only option so varanashram is therefore a method of as we saw before Krishna’s saying you’re engaging pious activities in his service impious the reason they’re called impious is because Krishna doesn’t really like them right? does that make sense? so so they’re not a form that he finds attractive so the piety is the the forms that he likes so now you follow them to please him it’s called devotional service you follow them because they’re good then that’s called piety you know a good karma these kind of elements so the only way we’re able to follow those pious things is through devotional service right? does that make sense? so so that’s there a few may have some aspects right? you have you find people that are just naturally cultured you know considered about considerate of others but their habits are bad like one thing I always found that was very interesting in America you have you know like the the south is it’s own culture north is it’s own culture west coast is it’s own culture so the south they’re considered gentlemen you know because they really deal very nicely very considerate in their dealings and all that much more than the northerners or the westerners but it’s very interesting to notice in their conversations even in mixed company they can use really rough language and discuss really gross topics but they do it very pleasantly it’s a very interesting you know how does that work? you know I’ve been noticing it over the last few years it’s such a you know it just doesn’t make sense you know like that so so you have this aspect there’s one good quality but then there’s some other that’s not the reason let’s say the person’s wealthy or powerful or famous you know is there is some quality that’s good like that the guy’s famous let’s say he’s an entertainer he’s famous you could say but how hard do they work? you know they work so hard at doing those things right? because otherwise they get on the stage they make it look effortless whatever they’re doing that was work so there’s a piety there that they can focus and work like that but then you see you know in their personal life you know they’re in rehab they’re married for the third time you know this and that because they don’t have it’s not complete so they may have one or two aspects but varnashra means it’s complete it’s a total package so we can only do from that so basically speaking it’s only by devotional service that’s why it’s had we follow the order of the spiritual master we somehow another connect to whatever position we’re in right? because otherwise why would it say the next stage is to regulate habits that means we’ve connected whatever is our not very ideal situation then the next is to regulate it and bring in it to order and then following those things that are recommended you know does that make sense? so that’s how we’ll do it through sadhana bhakti basically is that okay? so for us the varnashram aspects are also part of sadhana bhakti they’re just the indirect aspects right? so you know chanting hearing associating with devotees hearing bhagavatam worshiping the deity living in the dark those are direct but everything else is indirect there are the ones most much of our life is controlled by pancharatra so then that’s also that could be followed by even the mlecchas and yavanas they qualify you know in the way of being focused on krishna krishna krishna krishna you’re just your ordinary varnashram right? but because sometimes prabha will use the word daya but sometimes he won’t you know you know just like we say you know yeah you should do this service oh so that means it’s mundane? you didn’t say devotional service you know so prabha’s not discussing the mundane like that like that and as we’ll see is manu is not discussing the mundane either manasamhita is daya varnashram or something else yes so brahmacarya is struggling with an insensitive nature like so what are the ways in the brahmacarya to deal with that because sometimes brahmacarya awarded the post of responsibility yeah but the point is is you have to understand that others are people and you have to deal with them as people so it doesn’t matter the point is is the brahmacarya is somehow not tolerated because they’re just you know a little more thick -skinned like that as an authority you’ll get by because the brahmacarya is generally only awarded a position of you know it’s working within some spiritual authority right you know it’s not that the brahmacarya is awarded you know head of some mundane business you know I’m saying like that so therefore only because of the spiritual element the devotees tolerate it but it’s not that they don’t go away and go to another temple or bloop or other stuff like that you know I’m saying but the grihastha he’s forced to if he’s means and that’s only if he’s willing to learn to be sensitive means ultimately even if he’s not willing generally I’ve seen just by practice is by the third marriage they generally are domesticated you know I’ve generally seen like that some by the second but most by the means how rough they are the third even the roughest characters domesticated by the third marriage because he just kind of figured out that being a little too rough didn’t work in the first two and you know he’s getting too old to have that you know he doesn’t want to you know get married for a fourth time when he’s you know 60 you know he’s already enough to get remarried in the mid-40s or 50s is that so?

you have to work on the principles there if you’re going to go by forms then you’re going to have trouble you have to do it with a spiritual purpose because you don’t have the material so that’s why you have to work on the intelligence so the only way someone will be a naisthika brahmachari is that he’s able to apply the principles that you would have to learn as a grihastha he already applied them as a brahmachari and got realization because it’s only through application you get realization so he’s applied them as a brahmachari therefore he remained a brahmachari he wasn’t able to fully apply them as a brahmachari though he understands how it works the principle and that but he hasn’t gotten the realization that he’ll apply it as a grihastha but the second class brahmachari he’ll make a second class grihastha so basically he’s not going to learn much there so it’s only by the devotional endeavor the sadhana that he’ll basically develop so if sadhana is good then he’ll develop if not then he’s really got a problem third class even more third class doesn’t learn actually no fourth class doesn’t learn third class learns because it’s a rougher road right and then there’s us we’re tenth class our only chance is through devotional service okay one cannot enjoy sex life daily at home or elsewhere and attend a so-called yoga class and thus become a yogi right because now he’s talking he’s also he’s going to be talking about here the ashtanga yoga so you can’t be engaged daily in sexual activity and call yourself a yogi right because the yogi who’s a grihastha then once a month he’s engaging in sexual activity so therefore then that’s controlled so that won’t disturb his yoga practice right but here daily then it won’t work you know one has to practice controlling the mind and avoiding all kinds of sense gratification that’s why he said so-called yoga class because a real yoga class whose devotional service will say you can’t do that but it’s so-called they’re not going to worry about it you know so long as you you know listen to whatever they do there you know in the thing pay your fees when you walk out the door they’re not really worried about it one has to practice controlling the mind and avoiding all kinds of sense gratification of which sex life is the chief right because all sense gratification basically comes back to sex life right so that means nice fancy food and all generally is there because there is the connection to the home right so that’s there one may say well you know he was a kid so where’s sex no but his mother’s cooking his mother’s connected to the father you understand so it’s because that’s the environment it’s what goes with it one can have it without one can make nice food Krishna temple cooks nice food right but generally speaking all the sense gratification nice clothes nice dress the social things the facilities that’s all connected with grihastha are shown right that’s why we you know it’ll seem strange that the brahmachari sannyasis have those facilities because the idea is no that’s all for sense gratification but it also could be no it’s whatever is to serve Krishna right means it could be used means brahmachari is using it called temple you know check out things make sure the books are there where are the bands and this and that but grihastha is using it for that kind of his service but he’s also calling home to see everything’s all right there he’s also seeing that his business is going nice right so it’s used in Krishna’s service but it has the other applications the brahmachari the other applications are not there it’s only the service right if you say well that’s ideal then we’re also when we say grihastha we’re also talking ideal because if we want to get down to grati hey no problem you know what I’m saying the grati grati as you can get with the brahmachari is like that grihastha can go way worse it’s not worth going there as a matter of argument you know what I’m saying so the point is is we’re looking at the ideal the grihastha is using using his facility for direct activity and also for indirect connected well the brahmachari then it’s just used for direct right now he may forget about Krishna but then it’s in a neutral state right so brahmachari will go from neutral to positive the grihastha is situated negative neutral and positive depending upon on how you know what’s the consciousness you know so that’s the whole thing he’s practicing bringing everything up to the positive but he’s he’s working from that the negative into the positive so brahmachari is starting neutral to the positive it’s just because the situation brahmachari is situated in brahman you know sometimes it seems to have that effect spaced out in brahman yes they’re being spaced out he’s actually just absorbed in brahman but he’s unconscious that he’s absorbed in brahman so that’s that’s the weakness right no one can perform correct yoga practice through sex indulgence right because yeah means the full means it being aspect of the total thing but it’s not through that right so it says no one can perform correct yoga practice one is that yastanga yoga definitely but even the other forms it’s not the main process you have the tantra then they’ll engage it but it’s simply to try to bring you up to the human platform right it’s not that these these aspects of that because whatever Manu recommends the pancharatra all the scriptures recommend that that situation in human life it’s the things that they’re considered substandard that are taken in the tantra and used to engage so someone who’s so distracted then those are engaged but you know that who knows how many lifetimes you’re working over there thousands and thousands of lifetimes that just come up to a proper standard so it’s not so here Prabhupada says no one can perform correct yoga practice right like that brahmacharya is taught therefore from childhood and one has no knowledge of sex life right because kids do things that you know it’s not connected with that it’s just some you know they’re showing off it’s just some fun it doesn’t have any other meanings and things like that you know therefore we’ll say they’re innocent right that children at the age of five are sent to the gurukula or the place of the spiritual master and the master trains the young boys in the strict discipline of becoming brahmacharys right so he probably trains them because otherwise they don’t know in strict discipline because if it’s not strict discipline the fun part is the grandmas will come up oh you’re so strict with the kids but the wife is like ten times stricter with the husband but the point is why does she have to be so much stricter because he wasn’t trained when he was young if he was trained when he was young then it would just be a matter of her disciplining to make into the form that is agreeable to her right but she has to actually take raw material and turn it into you know you know basically human then into man and then into the detail of what she wants her man to be like does that make sense but in the Vedic system she only has to make what kind of man she wants he already is a man and he’s already human right because unless they’re a brahmachar they won’t be able to follow the Vedic culture therefore it would be difficult to perform devotional service right because think about we may say so many things but think about it why are devotees going away from devotional you know more strict practice of devotional service it’s basically so nobody really goes away it’s just a matter of the strictness is falling is so less that it’s hard to appreciate the devotional platform.

But if you look at how many are going because they actually just don’t agree with the philosophy? Very few. So therefore, mostly it’s to do with culture.

Their own particular lifestyle they want to follow, their dealings with devotees, particular issues that they may have, social issues. Those are the reasons. So that’s why the training in brahmacharya, then one can be properly situated as a good hostile. Then the social system will work very nicely and then all those difficulties aren’t there.

Does that make sense? It seems that in some devotees’ minds there are three options, either follow perfectly or not follow or you’re a horrible devotee because you can’t follow.

I think you left out, was there any not follow perfectly? No, but see that’s the one that’s missing. Follow perfectly, not follow perfectly. Yeah, but either follow or not follow and that’s okay, right? So what about not following perfectly? Like Hiranyakashipu, he’s not following perfectly. Okay, okay. Now perfectly, never thinking of Krishna. Yeah, okay. That’s probably also there. Yeah, it’s an option as long as you can get up to his standard and Krishna will kill you, but otherwise I wouldn’t recommend that. Yatrayas don’t recommend that. It’s too, it’s rare.

You know, you hear of thousands of Brihaspas following nicely and going back to Godhead, but you know, there’s only a handful of demons that got killed by the Lord.

But what I’m getting at is that it’s okay to try to follow perfectly, but not actually. No, because that’s why it’s called sadhana. Sadhana means it’s not perfect, right? So you’re practicing.

So in other words, it’s a matter of, Grihastha ashram is still training.

Means the whole process is trained, the brahmacharya trained in the theory and the principles of the practice.

Grihastha ashram is there, is the application of those principles and the details of your specific needs and attachments.

Right? So you’re still learning. Right? So a good grihastha will be one who’s learning. He’s not learning. He’s not actually a good grihastha. And the day he’s not learning is the day also his wife is not satisfied.

You know, just like a teacher. A teacher is a teacher as long as he’s learning. And when he stops learning, he actually stops being a teacher. He may be able to go through the methods, but he’s no longer inspiring to the student. Right? So the husband is no longer inspiring to the wife. So as long as he’s learning, that means he’s developing. That means he’s ever fresh. That means there’s something new, there’s variety.

Does that make sense? So it’s the same process. So we’ll say, no, no, but there’s other factors that you’re not taking. No, there’s no other factor. God made the factors, not us.

So that’s where Krishna goes. Krishna goes through it.

Just as an example.

Yes. So Maharaj, in ISKCON, when Srila Prabhupada started to put into application education, he spoke about Gurukula.

Theoretically, there is no other option than Gurukula, according to Srila Prabhupada. There’s no other option than Gurukula? Technically, no. Because otherwise, what other option will train you? Because look at, well, just, just math. The modern academy, the idea is that there should be some excellence, right? Why do something if you’re not going to become good at it? Just like Prabhupada went to the karma school, but you have to be good at it. Okay? Now, and one may say Prabhupada went to karmic school, but Prabhupada went to karmic school in the 1800s when there was still some idea of human values and culture. You know, they still studied Greek literature and stuff like that, and you were supposed to improve yourself. Well, now it’s purely an occupationally based. It’s only skill-based. But there’s no, you know, your English lit teachers and others will talk about it, but no one takes them seriously. You know, I’ve even heard in some schools that now these things are being dropped. You know, maybe, you know, some elements of modern literature and that, but these ancient things are just being dropped from school curriculum. So, so it’s not, it wouldn’t really compare, you know, you know, just like Oxford was a religious school when it started. It’s not exactly now. So, so, you know, six hours a day you’re in the school that you have to study, and if you want to actually get good grades, you have to go home and study for two hours on your own. Pucca. You know, all the guys that get the, you know, A’s, they all do that. So that’s eight hours. Now, with such intensity, because there is no refinement there, there is no addressing the human element. Like I was just hearing yesterday about that they, they, they were being told by some, some, I think it was maybe teachers or some educators that in some, you know, in some situations in America, in the schools, you know, the grade schools and that, they don’t have breaks in classes anymore. Because if they have a break, the kid will go out on the playground. If he falls over and hurts himself, then they get sued for it. You know, he’s sued a hundred thousand dollars because, you know, Johnny fell off the swing, you know, and like that. So they don’t have recess anymore. There’s no breaks, you know, because generally less will happen at your desk, you know. You could, you know, fall asleep and bang your desk maybe or something, you know, you know. So, you know, or, you know, yeah.

Enough absurdity. So, so, so that’s eight hours. Now you’re going to have to do something, some recreation or something to unwind from that. And that will be some hours. So that’s another two to three hours. So we’ve already got six, eight, nine, ten, eleven hours, right? Then there’s going to be some time, you know, with the, you know, with the family, though you wouldn’t necessarily like to be there, you know, like that. But in any case, there’s some time with the family. There’s going to be watching television and all that. Very important, right? And all that. And then, you know, and then sleeping. Because they’re going to sleep at least eight hours and all that. Because such people that are so focused on that, also somehow, I don’t know where they picked it out. The kids grow in their sleep. But it doesn’t, doesn’t, doesn’t necessarily mean that the more you sleep, the more you grow, you know, like that. Otherwise, the guys that, you know, sleep 12 hours would be like, you know, all basketball players.

But the difficulty is, is that it’s the quality of your sleep and other things like that, that they don’t consider. Because you’d have to be into higher stuff rather than just the internet. Right? So, so then, then there, where is the room for sadhana?

You know what I’m saying? There is no room for sadhana. Right? Maybe a little bit on the weekend. But generally because of this on the week, because what we’re saying that playing during the week, that was just so you could survive the day. But now to survive the week, then you need the weekend as a break. And generally sadhana isn’t most people’s idea like that. Some, but those persons, those persons would survive either. In other words, those persons would be the ones that do very well in Biblical. They’ll do a very well in the modern educational. There are very few of them like that. Generally they’re Brahminic by nature. So there’s a very few of them.

So it’s, it’s just, where is the space for it? Because Prabhupada went, you could say Prabhupada went through it, but Prabhupada went through it and is recommending Gurukul. You know, it’s just like the guy who’s smoking and he tells you don’t smoke because it’s bad for you, this, that. He’s an authority. You can say, no, but he smokes, so it’s okay to smoke. No, but he’s, he’s smoking and telling you it’s not good, don’t smoke.

Does that make sense? So Prabhupada went through it, but he’s not recommending.

You know what I’m saying? You know, it’s just like how you say, you know, Rockefeller and all that. The first guy, he said he was poor. And I think it was, you know, from six or 12 he was working for the family because the father was dead or drunk or died, you know, gone or something. And so then he worked up and made his empire. So now you could say, no, no, but he was poor, so it’s all right for his kid to be poor, you know, like that. No, but he was poor, he doesn’t recommend it.

You understand? So, so it’s somehow another, you have these weird, weird things. It’s not logically thought out. It’s only, it’s based on attachment that we’re functioning. So that attachment is not based on human, human values. So it’s not varnasrama. So without the proper training, it won’t be there. You know, one could say, well, so many devotees, they were brahmacharis and all that. And, you know, that didn’t work out so great. But at the same time as, you know, most of the time, the thing is, is it’s understood that being Westerners, we may not catch the fine points of varnasrama in the beginning. It may take time to figure it out. You know, so as we figure it out, then you teach it. So now, so it’s not that, well, you know, we don’t like how things turned out then, that we don’t improve it. It’s just like we cooked, it didn’t turn out good, so we stopped cooking.

Right? No, you have to eat, so therefore you have to cook, so therefore you have to learn to cook. So the social system won’t work without varnasrama. And that means you have to have education to have the varnasrama work. So it’s no question of not having it. It’s only a pie-in-the-sky ideal that it can work without it. But it’s not working. You know, like that. It’s guaranteed. There’s no question that anything else will work. But as long as devotees are attached to the others, they’ll make that effort. And they’ll always have hope. That’s what Maya does. She always gives you hope that, oh, we did it this way, and if we adjust it, then it will work. That’s called mental speculation.

Mental speculation means I tried for my desire, it didn’t work, so I make an adjustment in that endeavor, and then it’ll work. Then that didn’t work, oh, because I didn’t do this. Right?

You know, so therefore it’s like that. But you’ll never figure it out. Just like to say, there’s some indigestion, you get some acid. So then it’s, oh, because what you’re eating has more acid, there’s more tomatoes, so I reduce the tomatoes, then I won’t have acid. You still have acid. It’s less, but you’re still getting acid. Right? So it doesn’t matter what you do, it’s, oh man, what I do, I still get acid and all that. That’s because in the Ayurveda it mentions that when you eat, it should be a pleasant environment. All right? But most of the time when you sit down with devotees, you always bring up a topic of, you know, some issue or some this or something grungy, like, yeah, last night I was sick and I was vomiting all over the place, and I was screaming and stuff. You know, stuff like that. And you say, where does this come from?

So therefore that’s why they’re getting the acid. You know, it may be also there’s a sensitivity, and by adjusting the diet that could have health, but they’ll never fully, because they’re not, the lifestyle’s not, because that’s based on Shastra. And that they won’t know, because it’s always like, Krishna, Krishna or Vedic culture, you know, it’s like one or the other, you know, somehow or another. Modern culture’s so nicely yukta-vairagya with Krishna, but Vedic culture, there’s no way you can yukta-vairagya that one.

So what we’re saying is it’s incomplete. Anything that’s not Vedic is incomplete. And no matter how hard they try, the devotional content means that the person taking the Western, connecting it to Krishna, they will advance, they will go back to Godhead. But it doesn’t mean that their social life and social environment that they’re in will be nice. That will always not be nice. And it will be an impetus for them to go back to Godhead, right?

But, you know, the process, devotional processes still work, just the social one doesn’t. So the sages being kind on the living entities, even those living entities that are attached, they still don’t want them to suffer. Like Jarabala didn’t want even the deer to suffer, right?

So let alone anybody else. So that’s why they give them advice how materially they can do nicely. But it’s meant that that niceness is connected to Krishna. So therefore the Vedic system is given, the social system is given, because it’s the only thing that works nicely.

Other things don’t work like that.

We see kids after training in the Gurukul go in the opposite direction. We see kids trained in the Gurukul go in the opposite direction. What do you mean by opposite? Trying a new endeavor. No, it’s like they’ve been placed in strict and, you know, follow sadhana and, you know, being a devotee. And then? They rebelled. They rebelled. But what do you mean by, I don’t quite, I mean, what do you mean by rebel? That’s… They get a tattoo? No. They wear long hair. They stop practicing. They kind of have fun, though. They stop practicing, probably. They stop practicing. Yes. At least for some time. Okay. But then do they go back? That’s the history we tell. That means if you look at those ones from earlier, much of them practice and stuff like that. Yeah, it means you do have that. But then you could also take as a parallel the temple brahmachari training, and then when they get married, do they still follow the same strict standards? Not the same. Yes. So that means that that would mean… So what I’m getting at here is that when we say Gurukul, it’s just like brahmachari training. We’re saying first-class brahmachari makes a first -class grihastha. So the point was, is, did they become a first-class brahmachari? In Gurukul, if they did in the temple, then they’d be a grihastha. But did they, in the Gurukul, become a first-class brahmachari? So the point is, is the training they were given such a way that it produces first-class brahmacharis? So it could be that the reason they went away is the training wasn’t ideal. They were trying to create a Gurukul environment, but did they? Just like the person was trying to cook, but someone who knows cooking, would you actually call that cooking?

You know what I’m saying? It’s just like someone tries to cook, oh, we’re cooking Indian, but an Indian might not call that Indian.

Does that make sense? So in the same way as those who understand Gurukul might not actually say that that endeavor was actually Gurukul. So to say, no, Gurukul doesn’t work, it means it’s true. Bad Gurukul training doesn’t work, or bad attempt at Gurukul training doesn’t work.

Does that make sense? This is a general, that’s a general comment. Specific is this, everybody’s an individual, they’re going to make their own decisions anyway. Because if you want to look at the factors of that, what did you give the Gurukul?

Did you give them a gold block and say, here, make ornaments? Or did you point out that over there somewhere there’s a vein of gold ore? You can go find it, dig it out, process it, get the gold, then make it into an ornament. But you only have four years to do it, and I need them for three months every summer, like that, if not also on the weekends.

Because that’s generally what most teachers had to deal with.

You know what I’m saying? So basically speaking, most Gurukuls in the past were not Gurukuls. Because Gurukul means the place of the teacher, not a, what do you call it? A daycare center. Daycare center.

Or a weekday care center. There’s many Gurukuls. It became a standard that five days a week in the Gurukul and two days a week they were at home. And so basically it means… And parents, because of their attachment, there can never be the idea that anything they do could be bad for their children.

That’s in that list of the top 10 of… The first one being that everybody else is dying, but I won’t. And also in that is that because I’m married, I’m already a perfect spouse. And because I had a child, I’m a perfect parent. And because I’m attached to my kid, the kid has the same attachment for me, and attachment is perfection, therefore I can never do anything wrong. These are all on the list, like that, of standard illusions.

So the point is, Gurukul means it’s the place of the teacher, just like in the home, the wife calls the cards, how it runs. But the father, the husband, he sets the general parameters.

So the Gurukul means the teacher sets the standard, and what goes on. And that’s done by the Vedic. Right? So what’s the part of the parents? I mean, kids in the Gurukul still have parents. Yes. It’s just like kids out of the Gurukul still have teachers.

You know what I’m saying? Look at it this way. The reason that a parent is dealing with their kid is because they’re attached to it, because they don’t like to deal with anybody else’s kid. You do have grihasthas that they like any kid, but they’re rare in the community. They’re actually rare. So if it’s not their kid, they don’t want to deal with it. Now you have a teacher. They’re dealing with everybody there is not their kid. So actually, as far as being a parent goes, a teacher is way, way, way better than a parent because they’re dealing because that’s their nature, their duty. The parent’s only doing it because they’re attached. They may learn to become a good parent and may come up to the standard. So we’re not saying it’s that, but right from the go. And if you say, no, but there’s so many bad teachers, there’s so many bad parents. It’s rare I’ve ever actually met a real good parent, a real parent. If we’re looking at standard, because when we do teachers, we go by the ultimate satya yuga standard. We go satya yuga standard on parents. I’ve met a few. I have. I remember seeing one mom. She said there were three kids in the class and the classroom is as big as, you know, from that pillar over to here. That’s all the bigger the classroom was. You know, it was on a farm somewhere. She’s sitting with three kids. One is a baby, full-on baby. The next one is, you know, big enough to stand up. So it’s two or three years old. The next one is like five or six. So she’s got the baby on one side of the one and one side of the other. She paid attention. The whole class kept all three kids engaged. None of them cried or anything. And in fact, the kids even, you know, at times took care of each other and stuff like that. And at the end of the class, she asked very relevant questions. They weren’t just, you know, some question. It was something exactly on what you were talking about. That was a parent, like that. Not these ones over there yelling and screaming and running around, you know. That was a parent. She had, you know, and like to say, oh, you only have one, okay. She had three. She had three kids. And I’m not even sure that they, she and her husband weren’t the managers of the farm. I think they were the temple president. You know, so it wasn’t that she was, that’s all she did, you know, did everything else. So I think she was in charge of the deities and all that. He did the farming, you know, like that. So they broke it up. So that’s it. We’re going to get into that in detail. We have to. So it’s better to stick to the principles, right? That. So the point is, is they have parents, but what is the complaint of the parent is that they’re attached and like to be with the kid and the kid isn’t married. So the kid, there is a possibility that the kid would hang out with them only if not by law that they have to. But once he’s 18, you never know if they’ll actually hang out with you, you know? And once they get married, you know, unless you get on good with his wife, there’s no question you’re going to see your son anymore. You know, it’s just, that’s reality. You know, I just was seeing just one of our graduates was just saying that this last summer, he just met the other half of the family. Right? On his father’s side. Huge amount of relatives. And they only live one hour away, you know? You know, they were living in one place and they sold their house and moved to another place, but the rest of the family stayed there. And this is, and he was, he’s in his 20s. And now for the first time he’s met, you know, met the relatives, you know, like that. So it’s like, that’s reality, you know? And then we have old age homes.

You know what I’m saying? So this whole gloriousness of the parent-child relationship needs to seriously be looked at is how glorious is it not being based on the Vedic standards? And what is glorious about it is what’s based on the Vedic standards. So the point of attachment, that’s not the problem. Because Krishna’s point is whatever can be used to advantage is used. So if attachments means you can only correct something if you act. And if the only reason you’ll act is due to attachment, great, then let’s cultivate that attachment. Because that will make you work. And by working, then if you apply it in Krishna consciousness, according to Shastra, you will be purified, you will be Krishna conscious. So therefore, there’s no problem that grhasas are attached to the family life, to their children. That’s not a problem at all. But there has to be the element is that their attachment to their child is that they want their child to become human. And human means there’s training. And that means it has to be, at least for boys, it has to be away from the mother. Women don’t make men. Women can refine men, but women can’t make men. Only men can produce men. In fact, if you really want to have fun, is only men can create the environment where you can have women like that. And such women, they’ll be good mothers who allow their son to become a man. So the point is, is if the mother’s a man, right? Then she’s not going to, since she’s already got all the stuff to make the son a man, but it doesn’t work. It’s just the way it is. It’s like you want your bread, it has to sit in the oven for 45 minutes. You may want, you’re hungry, you want to eat in five minutes, but it doesn’t matter. It’s got to wait before. So there’s a certain amount of time that it takes to cook, get the food. Otherwise, if you open the door early, what happens? It collapses. Then you get what you’re talking about. Because most kids come out of Gurukul before they’re cooked.

So they come out half-baked. And half-baked, you can expect, you’ll go crazy.

That’s why we have such a thing, is before we’d have them immediately move into the ashram. But now we have it, they only move in the ashram when they’re ready. And they means themselves and their parents.

Because a boy who’s at home, he sees the home, then the school is something different. Because home is north, and then he goes to the school. But if he’s at the school, then home becomes what’s different.

So if he’s not actually ready to be in the ashram, then home is different. Then he’ll look there, and then he’ll get into what he does at home. Because when he goes home, here is that he’s got to get up in the morning. When he gets up, he has to wash his own place where he slept, because it’s dirty. He has to fold up his own bed. He has to put it away, and he has to put it away nicely. He has to take his own bath, brush his own teeth, get his own clothes that he had to wash himself, like that. He’s got to cut and cook his own food, wash his own pots, serve his own food, like that. And anything else that goes on. You know what I’m saying? But when he goes home, he generally doesn’t have to do any of that. So it’s like, of course it’s better.

You know what I’m saying? So unless he’s trained, then that’s the point. So the difficulty is, it’s cute when he’s a kid, but when he gets older and he gets married, then he expects his wife will prepare everything, cook everything, wash all the dishes, you know, clean his clothes, pick up all the socks all over the place. I mentioned that to one Mataji about, you know, having to pick up the socks, you know, that the husband, she was German, right? She said, says, I’d pick them up and then I’d burn them.

And then when he figured out he doesn’t have any socks, he wouldn’t drop them on the floor anymore.

Now that’s strict, strict discipline.

Now you understand why the Germans are like they are, because they have moms like that.

So that was, that was funny.

So, so, so you understand is that therefore then he deals with his wife as if all the benefits that he would get from his mom, he will get. And the mom, you don’t see, the child generally speaking never sees the bad side. If she’s feeling bad or anything, she is grumpy, she’s feeling, that kid walks in, just smiles and all that, like that, you know. So, but the husband doesn’t see like that. The husband, you know, how you say that’s, that’s whizzy-whiz, right, you know. So the difficulty is, is that he can’t figure out why is his wife grumpy? Because his mom never is.

So he can’t deal with it.

So, so, so it won’t work. It can’t work.

You know what I’m saying? If somehow or another his parents stay together lifelong and all that and the dealings are nice, he’ll somehow get by. But there’s no guarantee his kid will.

You know, in one of those generations, it’ll be lost. Maximum piety, running on its own without reinvestment, you get three generations. Means whatever’s there in the grandfather, in the grandson’s life, it will run out. That’s the maximum good karma to go through the generations.

So at some point it will, it will disintegrate. You know, so if the parents move to it, then they may do okay. Their children may get by, but the grandchildren, they’ll be, you know, they won’t even be able to tell any ethnicity or whatever they were from. Does that make sense? So the reality is, is that it’s designed so that the parents have something good. It’s just like another example.

I’ll try it. If this was, it means in any other context, it would work. I’m not exactly sure if it will work for your context, because there, it’s like the whole country is in arms. So the son’s at home, he’s a flake, right? Sometimes he goes to the army, right? And all that. And then he comes back after his training. But when he comes back, he’s not a boy, he’s a man, right? So his mother’s very proud. Now he’s responsible. He’s respectful. He’s all those different things. So she’s good about it. But it was not easy that he was gone for, you know, so many years. So Gurukul’s the same. Like that. You’ll be happy later. Otherwise, you get in those few years now, but then in teenage, they don’t care for their mom anyway. You know, it has to understand 10 is the limit of really nice, wonderful mommy-child relationship. That’s it. That’s the end. 11, they turn into pups. So they still like them up, but it’s now their friends become more important. And if you’re able to accommodate that, which is hard because it happens overnight, you know, to go from you’re totally everything to them to you’re at best 50%.

And the control more comes from their friends and from the husband. Right? And that’s if you’re lucky, you know. And so then, then, then to be able to do that instantaneously is not easy. So then they’re going to still try to push because they’re small. But then 11, 12, 13, they’re so punky. Then by the time they get older than that, then they’re not interested at all. Then they’re just totally into their friends. And if their friends aren’t Krishna conscious, they’re not going to be. Does that make sense? So there’s a lot more dynamics involved. You know what I’m saying? The point is, is Manu says mother, father, and teacher. These three are the respected throughout their life. You know, traditionally the teacher is already there before they’re born. Because who’s doing all the samskaras? Right? Then they get an A, so they go to school.

You know what I’m saying? But, you know, it may not. It may not. But the point is, is teacher is there throughout.

So those three are always there. So there has to be a cooperation. So it’s not that if the teacher has any facility, well, what about the parents? No, it’s about parents have theirs, teachers have theirs, and it has to be able to work. You know, because whatever it is that you’re going to put into the kid, basically speaking, in principle, in volume, it’s been put in by the time they’re five. After that, it’s small amount. After that, teacher can work with it and do something with it. Parent can get very little out of it. But before five, the teacher gets very minimal out of it. The parent gets more.

Because they just pick up whatever you do is what is the principle on how they act. You’re nice. They’re nice fundamentally. You’re not nice. They’re not nice fundamentally. The teacher can work on that. Does this make sense? Yeah. So this is the Vedic principle.

What are you saying? So it’s a corporation. So it has to be mature. This approach from a mature platform, that everybody has their rights, but everybody has their obligations. Then it has meaning. Right? Understand on the material platform, the mother is the most respected. Then the father. But on the spiritual platform, the teachers are most respected. More than the parents. Like that. So it’s just the way it is.

Lecture Notes

A brief summary of the lecture contents, based on the notes of Śāstra-cakṣus students

  • One can fully focus on Kṛṣṇa when one fully abstains from sex life – that means that there are no longer any indirect things in one’s life, only direct service to the Lord. One is no longer trying to get any personal benefit from one’s service.
  • Freedom from sex life entails not just not engaging in sex, but being free from any material endeavour that makes oneself the centre of attention, like profit, adoration and distinction.
  • Being situated in renunciation but feeling that one is therefore better than gṛhasthas is an example of subtle sex life.
  • Secluded place means that there is nothing there to distract us from Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We may live in a city, but we should make our home simple. Usually there are many more things in our home than we require.
  • Secluded means away from material endeavour, thought, identity. Secluded means what we do with the situation that we are in.
  • 1:00:00 People complain that teachers are strict with children in gurukula. But after marriage wife is so much more strict with the husband to make him into human being that she wants, because he was not properly trained as a brahmacārī.
  • Śrīla Prabhupāda went through the materialistic education (and that was during times when there were still some finer values in the materialistic education), but he does not recommend it.
  • Without education there is no way that varṇāśrama will work properly.
  • For those who do not follow varṇāśrama the social environment will always not be nice, but if they are following spiritual practice, it can be an impetus for them to go back to Godhead.
  • Gurukula not working – bad attempts at gurukula training do not work. But even if gurukula training is good, everyone is an individual and may make their own choices that things taught in a gurukula are not for them.
  • Most gurukula attempts in the past by devotees have not been true gurukulas.
  • One may say that there are very few good teachers, but there are also extremely few good parents.
  • If children are not properly trained in gurukula, the parents are going to lose them anyway.

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