Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti, Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma, Rāma, Hare Hare So, verses forty-one to forty-eight, worshiping the Lord through the performance of one’s occupational duties is true renunciation.
Brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes, O chastiser of the enemy.
Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness, these are the natural qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work.
Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the kṣatriyas. Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaiśyas, and for the śūdras there is labor and service to others. By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from me how this can be done. By worship of the Lord who is the source of all beings and who is all -pervading, a man can obtain perfection through performing his own work. It is better to engage in one’s own occupation even though one may perform it imperfectly than to accept another’s occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one’s nature are never affected by sinful reactions. Every endeavor is covered by some fault, just as fire is covered by smoke. Therefore, one should not give up the work born of his nature, O son of Kuntī, even if such work is full of fault.
The four divisions of society are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes.
Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness. These are the natural qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work. Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities that work for the kṣatriyas.
Śrīla Baladeva Vidyabhūṣa describes the brahminical and kṣatriya qualities as follows.
Note that for the brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas, they’re only mentioning qualities. They’re not saying technically the work, because it’s the qualities that create the work. No qualities, no work. Right? But for vaiśyas and śūdras, they say the work, not the qualities. Because you can be a really good businessman and be an absolute total demon. Right? You know? You can be a fabulous artist and no one can stand you when you’re not doing what you’re doing. But you can’t be like that if you’re a brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya.
Śrīla Baladeva Vidyabhūṣa. The brahminical activities are controlling the internal sense, sama, that means the mind. Controlling the external senses, dhamma. Accepting pains in the body which are prescribed in scripture, tapa. Cleanliness of two types, internal and external, saucam.
Tolerance, kṣanti, straightforward dealings not being crooked, arjavam. Understanding the superior and inferior categories of existence from scripture, jñāna. Realizing the ultimate process defined in scripture, vijñāna. Having full faith in the truth presented in the scriptures, āstikyam. The truth is this. The Supreme Lord Hari is to be understood by all the Vedas. He alone is the cause of everything. He is to be worshipped by actions prescribed by Himself. He is to be satisfied by devotion.
And a person should offer everything, including himself, to the Lord. These are the actions of the brahmins which arise from his impressions.
Even if these types of actions appear occasionally in a kṣatriya or another varṇa with an increase of sattva, these actions are mentioned in relation to the brahmana because of his predominance of sattva.
So anyone means we see is because these are non-different from the devotional qualities. So it means any devotee will naturally have these or develop these qualities.
So that’s fine, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s one’s occupation. Remember the brahmacārī-gṛhastha-vānaprastha-sannyāsa, these are the spiritual situation. So the spiritual situation is how you are connecting yourself to the Lord. You’re training, you’re engaging it according to the senses, you’re engaging it according to detachment, you’re engaging it according to indifference.
The occupation means what you do, that’s how you maintain yourself.
There’s a distinction here. Like someone may have brahminical qualifications due to devotional service, but he’s doing business. So the idea says we’re all brahmins. Yes, all devotees are because the ashram is actually the most important. Sometimes it’s mentioned the element of varṇa first. Varṇa only distinguishes which way to situate you in the ashrams.
But that’s not the prominent element. Your occupation is not the prominent element. It’s the ashram that’s the prominent, because that’s how you’ll personally develop. That’s where you can attain the perfect element. The varṇa element never will be completely perfect, because you’re dealing with the modes, so you’re dealing with fault. It’s automatic. They go together. But the spiritual, if it’s connected to the Lord, it’s perfect. So in this way then, because of that understanding, then when the occupation, the work, is connected to Kṛṣṇa, that becomes perfect. But it’s not that its manifestation is necessarily going to be perfect.
So all devotees, as they progress in devotional service, are going to manifest the brahminical qualities. So they’re going to be qualified for class, for doing deity worship, for preaching, for any element that we would consider brahminical, because devotional is the perfection of brahminical. But it does not mean that that’s going to be someone’s occupation.
We must make a distinction here. So someone who has the qualification, they do that occupation. They don’t have the qualification, better to do someone else’s. And even if you have the ability, it means you have the skill, but it’s not your nature, better you don’t do it.
We have to remember is all the different parts of the varṇāśrama system are all the parts of the body of the Lord.
So the brahmacārīs are the feet of the Lord, the gṛhasthas are the waist, the vānaprasthas are the arms, and the sannyāsīs are the head. And also in occupation, śūjas are the feet, vaiśyas are the waist, kṣatriyas are the arms, brāhmaṇas are the head. So we can go on speculating and pontificating all we like about, oh, we’re devotees, it doesn’t matter. But go ahead and tell me that Kṛṣṇa’s got to walk around on His hands. Just go ahead.
Tell me He’s got to step all over the food to eat. He can eat with all His senses, but that’s His choice, not yours. If you’re a hand, you do the job of a hand. You don’t say, oh, why do I have to do that? I’d rather do something else. So this is the point. Even if you have the skill to do what someone else can do, doesn’t mean you do it. You can walk on your hands. It’s not that they don’t have the skill, they just don’t do it.
We have to get real at some point and understand all these things come from God. They’re not an opinion, that therefore my opinion is as good as God’s.
We have to get real at some point and realize this place is created by the Lord, and therefore it runs by His laws.
But the point is that since all these laws are meant to connect ourselves with Him in devotion, it’s very simple, very natural.
Someone who can sit with the deities all day, comfortably do that, they’re the pajari. Someone who’s good with money, these kind of things, he deals with the economics. Someone who’s good with administration, they deal with that. Someone who’s not good at those three does whatever else needs to be done. Very simple, right?
That’s the point.
So, just as the administrators or your managers love to say, oh, we’re just devotees, it doesn’t matter. So I would like to see it, okay, then let’s make the pot washer the temple president. Go for it, because it doesn’t matter, we’re all devotees. Oh, he’s not qualified. So neither are you to know what’s going on in other things. So you listen to the pajari when he says this is how it’s done. And don’t say, oh, we don’t care for all these rules.
Otherwise, make the pot washer the temple president, because it doesn’t matter, we’re all devotees. Put your money where your mouth is. Otherwise, shut up and listen to the philosophy and follow it.
And stop acting in the mode of ignorance while you’re whimsically doing whatever you like against the authority of the scriptures. And because you’ve been around for a while, you claim it’s Krishna consciousness.
It’s time to move on and get it together.
Does this make sense? So it’s very simple. God only spent eight verses, no, seven verses explaining this system. So it’s not rocket science. You’re either expert in knowledge, expert in administration, expert in money, or expert in doing whatever you’re told.
There’s not, it’s like, that’s it. It’s like, oh, who am I? I can’t figure out, it’s so complicated. That’s all it is. Just like, are you unmarried? Are you studying? Are you doing what some other person tells you to do? Yes, you’re a brahmachari. Are you married? You’re a grihasta. Was that rocket science? Hey, you’ve retired from grihasta life, right? You’re not there, getting out there, getting into the money, this, that. You’re just going along into your service. You’re with your wife, you’re not. You’re a vanaprastha, right? You took sannyasa, hey, you’re a sannyasi. Okay, was that rocket science? It’s that simple. So the ashram side, everyone, yeah, I know what I am, but the varna side, no one wants to be the shudra.
That’s all. How are you making your money? You got a job? You’re being paid? Hey, your occupation is a shudra. Hello.
But at the temple, I do the puja and I do all the yajnas and I give all the classes. Yes, because by ashram, you’re a brahman because you’re a devotee. But you’re making your money as a shudra. Bus, finished.
You run your own business? Hey, you’re a vaisya.
Yes. Thank you so much. So just wondering, you said a few times now, by ashram, you’re a brahman. I was just curious if you could explain that a little more. I don’t understand because brahman is not one of the ashrams. Because when Prabhupada, he always uses the term brahmanical culture. That’s because ashram is only brahmanical. Sometimes devotees say, oh, there’s brahmanical culture, there’s kshatriya culture, vaisya culture. There is no, there’s only brahmanical culture. Because the Vedic culture is meant for understanding brahman.
So therefore, it’s brahmanical. So the four ashrams together, that’s brahmanical. Now, someone who doesn’t have a brahmanical nature, that’s not manifest so much, they may not go through all four varnas. Traditionally, when you’re dealing with the, you know, how you say, non-devotional varna ashram, then brahman goes to all four orders, kshatriya through three, vaisya through two, and shudra one. Because unless, technically, unless you go to gurukula, you’re a shudra. You know, as far as that goes. Because it means you’re a grihastha, because you never were a brahmachari. Brahmachari means you’re separated from the family and you study under the teacher. Whether it’s, you know, as a live-in school or even if it’s just as a day school. But the prominence is you’re studying under the teacher. That’s the main authority as opposed to the parents. Because there’s a difference. Because there’s no sense of ownership when you’re with the teacher. But when you’re at home, it’s your place. You do what you like. So that sense of ownership, because what makes a grihastha ashram a grihastha ashram? Means the brahmachari is living in a house, right? Is it his house? No, a householder. Because of the sense of ownership. And so, and when the man’s with the woman, when it’s considered, how do you say, not confirmed, committed, when it’s a committed relationship, then there’s the sense of ownership. If it’s uncommitted, there’s no ownership. That’s the problem, right? Because ownership means then there’s a strong connection, right? Does that make sense? So that’s necessary.
So therefore, the sense of ownership is what makes grihastha ashram, right? Does that make sense? The man has all his stuff and it’s all his, and the woman owns the man, right? So it’s very simple. And so since it’s his stuff, he’s the guy that’s got to fix the plumbing and do all that. It’s not hers, right? Does that make sense? Things fall into place. It’s very simple. So simply that. So that’s why if one doesn’t go there, then one has grown up in that system. So only shudras do that. They just stay at home because they’re learning an art. They’re learning a skill. So if his father’s a carpenter, all he has to do is be in the house. He’ll learn the mentality because his father’s there. Part of the house is for the carpentry. He’ll go and spend time there and he’ll learn all that. And then when he’s five or six years old, they start to give him stuff to do. And by the time he’s 18, 16, 18, ready to get married, he’s a master carpenter. Does that make sense? So that’s how the system works. Well, the brahmins, kshatriyas and vaisyas, they’ll go to gurukul and after being trained, you know, in the science here of these qualities, right? Then they have the, you know, this ashram skills. Then they get married. So, Maharaj, what about these vaisyas? At least in the U.S., not so many of the devotees, not so many people become brahmins, moving to the temple anymore. So for them, they start out. So they start out. But the point is, is this is what’s so perfect about the devotional process, is that it’s not based on the perfection of the material environment.
But just because it’s not, doesn’t mean the material environment’s not important. You understand? This is the weakness, is that if it’s not primary, it’s nothing. Right? The American principle, it’s all or nothing. You’re either first or you’re last. There’s nothing else. Right? You’re either the top celebrity everyone’s talking about, you’re in all the tabloids, or you’re a nobody.
That’s it. There is no grey.
You understand? There is no grey.
So, does that make sense? It’s just the nature of the culture. So, because of that, then the mistake will be made, is that, okay, I didn’t do that, so therefore there’s a fault, and therefore then they, you know, emotionally fall apart. Or it’s, well, to avoid that, oh, it doesn’t matter. No, it’s a matter of, no, that that didn’t happen, so therefore what you should have gained as a brahmachari, gain it now. Because the varnashrama is basic. The varnashrama system starts from brahmacharya. It doesn’t start in the varnas. It starts in the ashrama. And then as brahmachari is first. Then after that, one graduates, then one becomes a grihastha. Grihasthas are brahmins, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. Not brahmacharis. They may have the nature, you know what I’m saying? And so, therefore, they would go in that direction.
You understand? But it’s what you are, because the vanaprastha, he lives in the forest. He gives advice. So he’s living the lifestyle occupation of a brahmin. Brahmachari is a brahmin. The sannyasin is a brahmin. It doesn’t matter what their background is. Right? So only grihastha, they’re the ones making the money. Does that make sense? It means you’re endeavoring to manipulate and materialize and get that money for yourself.
Right? For the household. Does that make sense? So it’s very, very simple. It’s so simple, it actually freaks people out. Why? Because no one wants to be the sudra. Depending upon how you’re looking at it, they don’t want to be the vaisya either. You know, unless it’s coming down to money and who’s in control. Then, of course, they don’t mind. You know? But the difficulty is that Krishna has just said, it doesn’t matter what your position. Every man can become perfect. Perfect means liberated. That means someone’s a sudra, he just does his sudra duties. Then he’ll become liberated from that. And because he’s doing it for Krishna, he’ll become a devotee. The system is so perfect. Why? Because it’s the body of the Lord.
And so the Lord’s body works nicely together.
Right? You know what I’m saying? It’s only in the sci-fi themes that you only have a brain. Right? And that’s the perfect evolution of the human. He’s just a brain.
You know? Like that. But the Vedic system is, you know, you’re perfect. You still have arms and legs. Right? And you even have a head to put the brain in. Right? You know? It’s like that. So, does that make sense?
But we just discussed that. The first, what does first mean? Define first.
You’re saying it very confidently. So what does first mean?
First social setup. How you’ll have a social setup. So the guy comes out of the womb. Bang. You know? Hand him a bow and arrow.
Varna first means if you’re dealing with a bunch of adults, you’re going to go by Varna, because they’re already in their ashram. They’re already basically married, or they’re not married and want to get married.
You know what I’m saying? So you’re going to start there. If you’re dealing with, they’re going to be, whether they’re brahmachari or not, what they’re fit for in the educational system. You see the nature.
Right? So you’re going to deal differently. The brahmin, you’re going to just discuss philosophy.
Right? The kshatriya, you’re going to discuss philosophy and show practical application and the future. Right? The vaisya, you’re going to talk about gain and loss. You act like this, then in the future you’re going to lose everything.
Like that. Shudra, you just deal real nice, very pleasant.
You understand? So it defines how you’re going to deal, what topics you’re going to take, you know, in the school. You understand?
It is brahmachari training.
So because we’re devotees, even the shudras can be involved, but generally they don’t do very well. It means they do better in the modern academic system, because all it is is academics. It does nothing about your lifestyle, so they’re comfortable there. In the Vedic system, there’s an insistence on these, you know, motive, goodness, lifestyle.
And so because of the devotional element, then some of the shudra nature will adjust, it’ll take time, unless they become already very naturally devotional. If they’re devotional, they’ll fit right in, because devotional is brahminical. But if they’re not devotional, then it’s based on their own inherent qualities, and so it’ll be rough for them. But by association and following the process, they’ll become purified. And then they can act as a brahmin, so they’ll fit into the school.
Does that make sense?
Isn’t there something like a mixed varnas, like this Chandra Shekhar was a… Mixed varnas. It means that, yeah, it’s called… you have Chandala, you have Nishada, you have Suta. These are mixed varnas.
Isn’t there something between brahmin and shudra?
No. This Chandra Shekhar, he was… That’s a kayastha. It means someone of a duija character, brahmacharya or vaisya. Generally it’s vaisyas, but it could be brahmacharya or vaisya, that they’re performing a shudra job of being bureaucrats.
So generally bureaucrats… It means the position is that of a shudra, the work you’re doing is that of a shudra, but because you have to be very clever, then most of the time the best bureaucrats are those who are duijas who are acting in this capacity. That’s why bureaucracy becomes very attractive to those in that position, because it takes cleverness to do it, but they don’t realize that they put themselves in a shudra position.
Does that make sense?
See, the problem is, if you want to get into this, be ready for blunt.
So that would mean that the person has the qualification, but the faith and the dependence on the Lord? So it has the qualification, but the faith and dependence. That just drops it out and you turn a daiva varnashram into ordinary. That’s all. See, the difference between daiva varnashram and asuric varnashram is simply do you connect it to Krishna or not. It’s that simple. It’s not that asuric varnashram is some demoniac kind of method. No, it just means you follow the varnashram. You have faith in the scriptures, but you’re doing it for your own fruit of benefit. I see some devotees sometimes that have nice, you know, Brahminical qualities. I mean, they’re good teachers, they’re knowledgeable, but then they have this kind of Sudhana anxiety. Where’s the money going to come from? Yes, so that just means there’s just some impurity. But the point is, is still, if that’s what they’re doing as their occupation, they continue with that. And then with time, as they get purified, things will work out. Because Krishna’s saying, better you do your service, even though there’s some fault in it. Because the point is, is the fault is why you’re here in the material world.
That’s the difficulty. Yes. So, we have a Brahminical culture, and we hear that sutras shouldn’t study the Vedas? They don’t study. The Veda means not that you don’t sit down and study the Shastra, the philosophy. They don’t learn the intonations of the Veda. Because for them it doesn’t really matter. You know, it’s what sounds good. So, if they want to adjust it, they will. So, you’re not supposed to do that. Intonations? Intonations. Like, that invocation verse, that’s a Vedic mantra. So, I wouldn’t necessarily recommend using it outside this class. So, those notes that we’re chanting, those notes are inherent with the syllable. Classical Sanskrit doesn’t have that. You can put any note you want. So, it just has a grammatical meaning. But in the Vedic Sanskrit, besides the grammatical meaning, it also has an inherent tonal quality. And if you don’t chant that tonal quality, it actually doesn’t mean what you’re saying. Right? So, that’s why there’s the famous story of Tvashta, you know, performing that yajna to get an enemy of Indra. But he ends up with Indra’s enemy.
So, because he chanted the verse wrong, because he said it was long or short. So now, those who are the classical grammarists, which means basically everyone in our society except for Bhanu Maharaj, then they’ll say, well, that doesn’t make sense, you know, what Prabhupada’s saying, right? Because in the verse, the word means what it means. It exactly means that. You know, it’s short, or it’s short and that’s the way it should be. So, why are they saying it’s supposed to be long? Right? But in the Vedic grammar, then, you know, according to the Riga Natarva, and so since he’s doing a yajna to generate a demon, that would be from the Natarva. So, he uses the same grammar as the Riga. So, on certain syllables, even though they themselves are short, they get a mark that’s long, means that they’re chanted up. Means you have three suaras, middle, lower, and upper. So, even though it’s a short syllable, it’s chanted as an upper syllable, which then, therefore, is chanted long, even though technically, grammatically, it’s a short syllable. So, only someone who knows Vedic Sanskrit would know that. You understand? And so, that resolves the problem, and Prabhupada and the Vedas are still correct.
Does that make sense? So, the point is, is because he chanted it wrong, he got the opposite effect. So, that’s why then it’s not recommended that shudras study the Veda, because they won’t worry about these things, and they’ll get into trouble. So, shudras are recommended to read Shilpabha’s books, but they’re not recommended to learn these esoteric way to chant mantras? That’s all. It’s just the chanting of mantras. They can learn the meaning of the mantras, but… You know what I’m saying? If someone’s very nicely, devotionally situated, it doesn’t really matter. But the point is, is that it’s learned for occupational application for Brahmins, or for ashram application for everybody else. So, like, we recite the verse every morning in the Bhagavad-gita, you don’t mean, like, you shouldn’t chant that? Which one? Like, in the morning, you know, we recite the Sanskrit in the Bhagavad-gita, or we recite… No, that’s fine. I’m talking about the Sahanavada too. That’s Vedic. That’s Taittiriya Upanishad.
We’re using it from the boys’ classes, because they learn the Vedic stuff, and just, I never figured out a different verse to use for this class.
So, you’re speaking specifically about the Shruti, not the Smriti? Yeah, no, Shruti. When we say Veda, we mean the Vedic, you know, memorizing the Samhita of the Veda.
Like that. But Upanishads, that’s the higher principle, that anybody can just approach. There’s Jabala. He was a… How do you say?
His mother was a prostitute, but he was accepted by his Gautama, you know, as brahminical.
Like that. So, the background is that you have to actually see the nature.
Yes?
The occupation and ashram. Ashram.
Occupation will be according to whatever their nature is. It means, in other words, one should not do something that one doesn’t have the nature to do. That’s all. Just as the men shouldn’t do something they don’t have the nature to say with the women.
And the situation of marriage, it’s a matter of, if one finds a suitable husband, one gets married. If not, one stays in the house of the father. That’s the Vedic recommendation. You know, better the girl gets married, but better she stays in her father’s house than marry someone who’s not qualified.
So, that’s the basic rule. Does that make sense?
Anything else?
A ksatriya is not afraid during battle. He cannot be surpassed by others. Even in times of great distress, his senses do not become fatigued. He cannot be surpassed by others. He doesn’t become afraid because he has that skill. He doesn’t have that fear of the loss of life. Because it’s the chivalry that’s the thing that moves. So, in a battle, he becomes more inspired. We always hear the stories in the Krishna -Bhagavad-Gita, when the ksatriyas are that, then they become, yeah, you know, and everybody else is, oh no, you know. So, that battle with Krishna and Jarasandha, there was so much blood, you know, it’s just like flowing like rivers, you know, and in the rivers, there’s horses, you know, and elephants are like the islands, and heads are like the pebbles, you know, and all these different things. The arms are like, you know, fish, you know. And so, everybody else, you know, becomes faint, but the ksatriyas become more inspired. So, wow, this is a good one, you know, like that. So, that. He cannot be surpassed, means if someone else is better, he won’t tolerate that. He has to become that good. So, if it’s in a pure state, it’s jealousy, not envy. Because jealousy means, someone else is good, you’ll also become good. So, however good they get, you’ll become better. That’s jealousy. Envy is, he’s good, we’ll do something to make him not good. That way, I’ll be better. You understand? There’s a difference. So, when we hear jealousy used in relationships? Jealousy used in relationships, it’s if you know what you’re doing, you can use it to nourish the relationship. Envy, that’s not going to work. Envy is a problem. Because envy is destructive.
Jealousy means there’s a false ego, so it’s got problems. But it still is usable.
So, you know what you’re doing. You know what I’m saying?
Even in times of great distress, his senses do not become fatigued. So, the sense that he’s able to engage the senses, even if he’s very tired. Others, they become tired, they just go to sleep. But he’s able to keep going. He is expert in accomplishing his tasks. So, it’s not just he’s in charge, he actually can do. That’s the point. Even if his death is certain, he does not flee, turning his back to the enemy. I’d probably tell the story of these two Kshatriyas are fighting, and the fighting came down to swords, and that somehow or another, the one lost his sword, so he pulls out his little dagger. And then they’re fighting, and then because of the advantage of the sword, then the one Kshatriya, you know, I say, stabs him with the sword.
But that brings the Kshatriya with the sword closer to the one with the dagger. So, he grabs the handle of the sword, pushes it through himself, so that brings the other Kshatriya right next to him, and then kills him with his dagger. Prabhupada said, that’s Kshatriya.
So, we have stories like that. That’s a Kshatriya. So, they’re not worried about this.
Just because he’s in charge, that doesn’t make him a Kshatriya. He’s tough, you know, that doesn’t make him a Kshatriya.
Like, bouncers are Shudras. They know the martial art. That’s why it’s called martial art, not called martial science, martial art. The guy who knows the science is the guy, you know, the Brahmin who wanders around and created that art.
Soldiers are Shudras. It doesn’t mean that you won’t have a Kshatriya acting in that capacity, but the general tendency is they’ll move up. The guy will start off as a bouncer and this and that, come back later, and then he’s got his own security, you know, thing like that. You know, so, yes.
It means that he actually knows how it’s working. Especially there, if you’re talking to martial arts, if you’re talking Eastern here, then he actually knows how the masculine and feminine principles are working, and then the, you know, that kind of stuff.
If he’s teaching it, it doesn’t necessarily mean you have to see what’s his character in teaching it. If there’s a lot of ego and everything, he may be a Shudra, because arts you can learn from Shudras. You can also, it means, the best is Dvijas are learning from the Brahmins, but you can also learn it. Like, let’s say, the king could learn wrestling from a wrestler who’s a Shudra. Right? Or he may learn music from a musician who’s a Shudra. So that’s not a problem. He’s the most expert, you’ll learn from him, but he only teaches that. But when it’s taught in connection with the Shastra, right, so it’s taught in connection with that, that’s where it’s dramatic. Does that make sense? So there’s, there’s the elements where people, what’s their motive? You know what I’m saying? You know, in other words, let’s say, does that make sense? You know, yeah, so you have all these fine overlaps like that, like what Prabhu was talking about. You know, someone in one mentality doing something else, so it may be an advantage, it may be a disadvantage. Just like, let’s say, a hospital, that’s supposed to be a Brahminical element because it’s medicine, right? But to run those things on that level, then they have Vaishyas who are the board that decides what they’re going to do so it’s economically viable. So it’s actually a business. So the Vaishyas are engaging Brahmins to do business. That’s where the problem comes. Well, before, the Ayurvedic doctor, he can fix you, you know, with, you know, 100 rupees of medicine. You know, you go to the allopathic, it’ll cost you 100,000.
So that may be Brahminical.
It may also be Kshatriya. You have to see what’s there. Because the Kshatriyas many times for occupation if they can’t perform their natural duties will take up skills. Because as it says, expert in accomplishing this task. So it’s something you can do, you can take, accomplish like that.
He is expert in accomplishing tasks is the Kshatriya part. Yeah, so sometimes you see that they do that. You know, the guy was the Maharaj of this place but now he runs like a mechanic shop. Because it’s very straightforward, you get things done.
It’s not uncommon. It’s not ideal. But it happens. But it’s still a business. So it’s his business. So technically it’s a business. But the business will be in his skill.
No, it’s not Kshatriya.
It’s supposed to be Brahminical. It’s supposed to be Brahminical because he knows the law and he’s dealing with justice. He can be an element of the Kshatriya if he’s, if he’s, you say, an officer of the state and then he’s been put into that position. You know what I’m saying? He has an administrative post but let’s say that there’s something that needs adjudicating. So he’s, he’s, you know, given that he should set up a commission to take care of that. So, and then when that’s done he goes back to his administrative business. Then that might be a Kshatriya element. But, generally speaking they’re supposed to be Brahminical.
But, many of them are Vaishyas because Vaishyas are also clever. Because the, the point is it’s supposed to be based on the Vedic principles so it’s based on eternal law. And so it’s not, it’s not rhetoric. It’s supposed to be logic. But Vaishyas, you know, because, because of the element of, of the economic aspect and because of the, the mode of ignorance there, so the art aspect, they can learn, means their ability, they can learn the law and learn how to use it to make money. So that’s the point, is that why are they a lawyer? If it’s just to make money or it’s that they like that field and then they make money from it, right? Everybody has to make money so that’s not the point. It’s, it’s, what’s, what’s your principle for doing it that’s behind it? No, my experience is that everyone I see around me, they’re, they’re pretty much all just interested in making money and they’ll make, they’ll twist, they’ll twist the logic of all, all, all the presidential law just to try to win their argument when they know it’s wrong. Yeah. But, but that also just means maybe bad qualities. So you’d have to see, the point is, is then you have to look at it very carefully. You know what I’m saying? But what we’re saying is when you situate yourself in these things, so not to contradict before saying it’s so easy, is that there are fine points within each one. You know. So you have to, you have to see because there’s elements of overlap. Like farming, that’s one thing for the, the Vaishyas. But a Shudra can also farm. But he just does his own farming. Well the Vaishya can, can engage Shudras to do bigger farming. You know what I’m saying? But a Vaishya could also do his own farming. And that’s all. You know, he gets in his, you know, how you say, $500,000, you know, sink that big machine like that, puts on air conditioning, puts on his music, and then, you know, drives for the next, you know, 50 miles, you know, plowing his fields like that. So, you know, it’s still a Vaishya. And then sometimes people in these, for medical or Vaishya or whatever kind of position as a lawyer, then, but they, most of them, they work for someone else. That’s the point, is that, it’s, this is where the Western culture, people are still in their basic natural positions, but it’s not scientific. Prabhupada said, the whole world works by Varnashram. So we say, Varnashram doesn’t work. No, it’s going on right now. The difference is whether you want to have the knowledge and make it scientific, or you’re happy with the mishmash. You know what I’m saying? So therefore, there’s a firm. The firm is run as a business. So that makes it a Vaishya element. But, most people in it, at least the lawyers, then generally they’re Brahminical, like that. But, they may be of something else. They might be Shaktis, they might be, they might be Vaishyas, like that. And they’ll have lots of Shudras there who do all the backup work and get the files and get all this and that. And if they’re able to move up and become lawyers, then they have that Brahminical nature. They stay like that forever. That’s generally a Shudra. But isn’t the lawyer also like in one sense a Shudra? It means he’s been made into one by the Vaishyas by working for the company. Just like I said that he’s working for the hospital. So that way everybody basically becomes. In the Vaishya’s mind everybody should be Shudras. It should be him and everybody else is Shudras. In his mind, all the politicians, everybody should be in his pocket. So he’s a communist. So it’s a combo of Brahmin by Shudra in many cases. That’s there. But the point is what we’re saying here is what is it that you have to engage in Krishna’s service? Right? Because this is not this is not at this point a study in Varanashram. This is a study on how to connect what you’re doing to Krishna. Right? So that means what is it that is there? Okay. But even take anything you want. But let’s take its natural state. We take law. So law is coming from the Lord. Right? So that means the law should be in connection with eternal principles. Right? So you’re trying to establish what’s the correct activity and what’s incorrect activity. That’s basically what you’re trying to establish. And who’s done what? Has the person done correct or incorrect? So that whole position is there so that the creation goes properly. God’s made it. There’s an order that’s there. So without law there is no order. So that means the lawyer is supposed to see to that order. But he’s supposed to know what that order is. You know what I’m saying? So, so that’s, that’s the, that’s, that’s what you’re connecting. That’s its connection. Right? And if nothing else, if that doesn’t connect, it’s too, so far from reality, then it is just an endeavor to make money, then, then economics, then you’re looking at the element of economics coming from God. Right? It’s a lower principle. So instead of Dharma, you’re talking with Artha. So economics, that means you win the case, you get paid. You lose the case, you don’t get paid. Right? So therefore, better you get paid, so better you win the case. So to win the case means you have to have better arguments than the other guy. You have to have more information than the other guy. And so that’s what you do. You know what I’m saying? So, it loses some of its, how do you say, nobility, but it pays the bills. Right? But still, you’re able to see its connection to the Lord. That’s what’s important from here. That’s the conclusion here. So it’s not a full Varnashram discussion. It’s the conclusion that whatever is the nature, so that’s why you have to see, okay, it may be a mix, but why are you in it? You know, it means, in other words, it means to make money, okay, but is it the making of money that’s important, or is that you need to make money? You know what I’m saying? For a Vaishya, it’s making of money is important. They have more money than they need. That’s why it’s part of their occupation to give in charity. Because if it’s up to them, they’ll make money and just keep making it. They don’t need that much money. They can’t spend it. They just have to make it. They don’t have time to spend it. Yeah, they don’t have time.
Does that make sense? they’re, but for others, they’re making money because it does something.
You know what I’m saying? The Kshatriya, he makes money because it runs the kingdom. But running the kingdom is what’s important. He needs money. You know what I’m saying? But the Vaishya, he’ll run a kingdom to make money. You understand? That’s the difference.
That’s the whole point. So, making money isn’t the element. It’s whether it’s your need is to make money. That is your drive. You see something and you think, hey, we could sell this.
You know what I’m saying? You know, it’s like, you know, the man is sitting around and he’s working out these theories and all this and that and he’s finally worked it out and all this and so, he’s thinking, great, knowledge has been expanded and another guy goes, wow, we could make money off of this. So, that’s the difference. Or, another guy goes, oh, with this knowledge then we could have more power.
You understand? So, you have to see what’s the inherent nature behind. That’s then what you work with because it’s your value which is where you’re going to be able to most efficiently look for Krishna.
Right? Because there’s that drive, there’s that need. So, from need comes work. Right? And if there’s need, that means there’s identity and contemplation and inspiration. So, that’s where you want to look.
Does that make sense? So, whatever is the reason that the person is the lawyer, it doesn’t matter in the Krishna conscious element is that element you have to connect.
Does that make sense? Does that make sense?
Okay.
I’m just thinking about from Czech Republic there was a president who was a dissident before communist times. He’s a philosopher and he’s a writer. Deep thoughts he has and stresses his point should be removed in our world. My character is a woman hunter and almost a drunk optimizer. Pretty standard. I said very standard. You check out the French intellectuals they’re probably worse. I forgot one of the very famous guys yeah he was an absolute debauchee but someone commented on it once and so he created a whole philosophy to explain it and that philosophy now is one of the very mainstream basis of you know modern philosophical thought. Yeah, existential you know, so like that. He just was insulted that someone had you know made a comment because he lived like in brothels and stuff like that. So he came up with this and now it’s like you know the great thinker of you know, like that.
Brahmanical elements are there but just they become so polluted they’re acting as shooters. Like here he’s living in a brothel so that means he’s living in a mode of ignorance. He’s creating this only out of pride. Pride has already come from the greed and you know attachment and greed. Because he wasn’t living with one lady he was living with many ladies. Why live in a brothel? You want to live with one lady you live at home. You know what I’m saying? So the all these he’s allowed himself to become contaminated so you have to be able to see where the fault is and where the nature is because otherwise oh he’s that he can’t be Brahmanical. That’s so simplistic because there’s faults right means starts with an A you know killed the sons of Kunti I mean of Draupadi Ashwatthama so he’s a Brahman but by association and by not being careful in his you know practices and that he involved himself in very you know despicable activity so you could take that activity and based on that give a punishment technically it wouldn’t be wrong but at the same time is because other than that he inherently is always acting in a Brahmanical capacity then you would take that as a basis right because Krishna was saying no I want you know you have to satisfy you know how you say Draupadi and himself right he was taking Bhima the hard line right just to show you have to balance right because the point is is I mean someone in that capacity they would naturally be punished in a particular way but because he does have the Brahmanical character and that’s been shown consistently therefore he’s dealt with in a different way but you have to obtain the same result does that make sense so physically killing a Brahman and insulting a Brahman the reaction is the same right does that make sense that’s why it’s said never insult Brahman the reaction is the same it’s considered as good as killing a Brahman so therefore he had to kill him but at the same time not kill him so therefore he insulted him you understand and so then that made it that accomplished both so one is considering this so that’s why by that fine point that’s why it’s Arjuna he sets the example he sets the standard he’s able to make that distinction you know what I’m saying or Arjuna again then he he and the family when they’re before they’re married they come to the Ganga at night and then he’s attacked by I think Chitra Ratha Gandharva king and then there’s a big fight and Arjuna uses the Agni Astra and defeats him and takes him to Yudhishthira and and then Chitra Ratha’s wife comes and says you know please let him go so then they let him go because they say for the Kshatriyas they say any Kshatriyas protected by a woman they’re not going to harm just like you wouldn’t kill a woman then you wouldn’t kill a Kshatriya protected by one like that so yeah it was just like such an insult yeah it’s as good as being killed like if you’re going to kill him it’s even worse for Kshatriyas that your wife got you out of the way so like that so it works you know but because of their qualification then they became very good friends extremely good friends and so then Chitra Ratha wanted to give him you know I think a hundred Gandharva horses and different this knowledge of how things work in the universe these different things and he said no I won’t take it and he says you know why not he says because I don’t I don’t take gifts for work I’m supposed to do right so as a Kshatriya I fight and as a Kshatriya I protect so you know you were protected because of our duty so I’m not going to get paid for that so he’s distinguishing that okay he’s a friend he’s saying no but I’m a friend but the reason he’s inspired to give him this is because of how he dealt with him right if it just out of the blue came and said hey you know you come for a visit then he gives you a gift that’s normal right but he saved you you know and then you give a gift then that means that’s payment for that so he won’t take it so these are fine points so it doesn’t mean that the Vedic system is so simple that anyone can understand it but at the same time it’s so sophisticated that it applies to every living entity in every situation that’s that’s what’s unique about it does that make sense so you have to be able to go through and see what’s the underlying because otherwise how do you know how to speak to him right he’s a debauchee and all this but that’s not the basis of discussion do you know what I’m saying he was a street guy you know that all we’ve done is you know make a little money at the side then you know get drunk and go after the ladies then you that may be their position right but if you wanted to have a discussion with him and Krishna conscious you’re going to use philosophy right because that’s that’s his nature though it’s polluted does that make sense but we can’t say they are Brahmins these people what do you mean by Brahmin that fits the definition that fits what in the definition the qualities okay the child is born is he a Brahmin he’s a Brahmin he’s a Brahmin Krishna knows okay but the point is is you’re in this class for you to know Krishna already knows so he doesn’t need the class he’s doing fine okay you don’t know but the point is is you have to know is he a Brahmin or not not yet not yet let us say I have a cauliflower I just it’s sitting in the field it’s right there in the ground do I have a cauliflower subji I can serve you for lunch no but can I take that cauliflower subji and make it into yeah okay that’s the point you’re looking for potential the point is he’s not acting in the brahminical capacity but what’s his potential you know what I’m saying so this person if he took up Krishna consciousness what would be his occupation it would be brahminical do you understand does that make sense so that’s the point it doesn’t mean that whatever the position doesn’t make them greater or lesser as a devotee just like in the Sri Vaishnava line then when we mentioned about the wrestler there was a famous wrestler he was the best wrestler he taught wrestling to the king he became a devotee of Ramanujacarya so he’s very prominent in the past times of Ramanujacarya because he was like Ramanujacarya’s servant and everything like that he still did his occupation wrestling for the king and because of that he was very wealthy but many of the stories about devotion and good qualities being important are told in connection with this devotee as opposed to others does that make sense so the point is as an occupation he’s a shudra but as a devotee then he’s brahminical right so the more one has been practicing the more the brahminical qualities will manifest right but still there’s your occupation does it make sense yes why is it so important for people now that they should be a shudra because it’s prestige wise see that what’s the important thing of the western society prestige yeah you know they’re known as the you know what is it the conquistadors right you know they have to go out and conquer the world right you know they can’t just sit there in their own little country right and be happy so their ego is such right you know it’s like this let’s say you have you know an asian culture so elements of that culture is being followed by billions of people you know it’s easily probably three billion half of the planet is probably asian right and they’re basically all following certain basic elements of you know family and social life that we will say it’s kali yuga they can’t be practiced you know what I’m saying so so that’s not practical to apply in the west but somehow or another it’s perfectly normal that any western element of culture anything should be able to be applied in you know asia you understand so why is it it’s goes only one way unless there’s you’re dealing with an incredible amount of false ego you understand so because of this false ego no one wants to be in the if the shooter was the best thing you know what I’m saying if if you know being an artist you know and having your black and white striped t-shirt with your beret and you know like that then that would be the best you know what I’m saying but you know but the devotees generally don’t you know probably very few are bohemians so so it’s a problem for them because the shooter is on the bottom he’s told what to do you know he’s not in control of the money he’s not in control of the power he’s not the intellectual so what what’s his no one wants to be that even though basically speaking most devotees it’s an occupation that’s what they do and it’s not a problem because what does it matter when you come to the temple it doesn’t matter what you do it’s a matter of what you’re qualified for do you lead the Arctic do you give the class you know do you do the puja it’s just a matter of your spiritual qualification right does that make sense so why they worry about it I don’t know but the thing is if that’s the case then when it comes to how the temple should be administrated who should be making comments the devotee who has a job as a shudra or someone who has a job in something higher than that that’s the point so this is where it becomes a trouble because everybody due to their own personal insecurity doesn’t want to be controlled and so therefore you have to have a temple committee right we have a temple president you don’t need a committee because no one on that committee is going to do anything anyway you know what I’m saying they’re there to tell the temple president what to do so what are they trying to do make him into their shudra right does that make sense so that he does what they want to get done that none of them can do right in other words if someone on that committee could actually do it why would they not be the president it’s that simple but people say no it’s more complicated yes it’s more complicated because what I’m talking about is just mechanics of administration and management but what they’re talking about is more complicated that means feelings and emotions does that make sense just like the man goes the woman’s going on about something and the man logically works it out in about 10 seconds and the woman goes you don’t understand and he’s going what do you mean it’s logical so what’s not there is the emotional content and those considerations yes alright I agree with what you said very much and I think it’s filled with good insights but I was just wondering isn’t it possible that you could have a committee or a board of directors whatever you want to call it that doesn’t necessarily have the temple president as it’s machine to do as it’s shudra couldn’t that board also just sort of act as a checks and balances and otherwise generally give the president a free hand to do it to run a temple as he likes is that possible sort of like of course probably set up the GBC to fulfill that function but but couldn’t the board conceivably couldn’t that be it’s aim function to basically do what the GBC is supposed to be doing ok so what nature was that hmm hmm shudra no what he just said it’s brahminical it’s principle based yeah so it’s brahminical but it wasn’t it wasn’t morality what’s right or wrong it was a theory a philosophy ok ok so if there was any doubt whether where you fit in the that category so in theory yes but in practicalness why is there a committee do you need a committee you have a temple president he just has to run how many brahmacharis and how many deities ok 5 12 deities and 5 brahmacharis ok 3 are from Russia and 2 are from Bengal Bengal well actually I wouldn’t want to insult the Lithuanian because he’s not actually Russian so 2 Russians 1 Lithuanian 2 Bengalis ok so why do you need that committee it’s because he’s incapable no it’s because the community is insecure that they don’t trust that he’ll do things that they want him to do so they want to have that board so that they’re on it if it is as you say but why would you need it for a temple president I could understand a group of temple presidents coming together to work out you know some kind of cooperative spirit in an area but why do you need it for the temple you know what I’m saying if the president himself wants to have a board to give him advice in different areas in economics or management or you know that’s what he’s supposed to do he’s supposed to set up an administration but they’re under him as far as structure goes but he should only choose those persons that he sees as senior to him you understand this is the Vedic balance is the ministers administratively are below the king but as far as their position their as respectability they’re above the king you understand this you don’t get in the western western thing their point is is they’re above they’re managerially above they’re everything above but it’s all one way again the western concept right in the orient they don’t have problem that you have the king and he has his brahmins and all that you know even as far as you know it’s going to the middle east it was accepted you know and even before as long as you know religion was considered cool it worked like that you know it didn’t it didn’t work so good for Beckett but hey you know in the middle east it’s not so accepted at this very moment that’s fair like that so that’s the Vedic system would be that the committee would be more like advisory the committee is ministers that’s all their advisors that’s all they may have portfolios they may be active but they discuss as a group but still the decision is the king’s then they have their positions and they do their duties so it could be purely advisory or they would have a portfolio so it’s up to the president how he constitutes it so that he has devotees like that that he takes advice from that’s smart so in other words for a temple president to arrange such a committee that’s smart that’s what the administration for the community to demand it because they don’t trust the temple president that’s just nonsense it doesn’t work anywhere you understand so you’d have to distinguish how it’s being applied does that make sense what about though like try what about when the board is there to do just what you said they don’t trust the temple president so therefore you’ll notice notice that yatra in that temple nothing really happens means it may happen but what was developed from before but nothing new is going on it’s not expanding isn’t that the GBC’s function though to an extent yes means that’s a whole other discussion GBC is the seat of standards administration that’s the temple presidents but occasionally the GBC wants the temple president to be removed that’s ok if he’s not doing his job but he does that with the support of other GBC men they also consider that he needs to be removed and replaced it’s not done by a singular GBC doesn’t do that right unless it’s so obvious could you have a situation where such a committee actually serves the purpose of just making like the community at ease it seems that so like an ombudsman but that means then the administration is not working on the principle of protection so they’re trying to affect protection but through a method that is not going to work because if they don’t trust the president it’s just a matter of time before they don’t trust the committee then you have to have a committee to take care of the committee right so how many means it’s just like this is that it may happen that how many government offices are there and how many are there doing before you just had there was the army and there was the local police right but then there was a problem between states so then they had to have a federal police the FBI and then they had the army but then they had the CIA and then they have all these other special things and each one doesn’t get along with the other and many times they’re just fighting with each other you understand so they just make more and more and more and more so the difficulty is the principle is protection if that’s not there and it’s not understood who constituted the committee if they don’t know what protection is how they will create it you know what I’m saying you sometimes comment on the temple courtyard is that I mean this gossiping or this I mean is that just something that just happens and goes on that’s not that’s part that’s not part of Varna that’s part of Ashram that’s where this committee idea yes so those who Prajalpa is very important to them they get like this but then what are they doing they’re lamenting so where does it come from it’s Shudras so the problem is when Shudras aren’t protected then they come up with these ideas you know does that make sense or they are in a higher position in that but they don’t want to do it themselves but they don’t want to be bothered so then they’ll have to pull it together if it’s a Vaishya it’ll be for a specific thing then it’ll disappear the Kshatriya you know it’s supposed to be this thing that’s in place it’s so necessary this and that Brahman will be a theory you know so if the theory is not in connection with the Vedas then it’ll do something but it’ll it’ll make more mess yes when Varna was in recent they advised him but the problem was see they put him on the throne because you know he was there he was qualified he knew the science of the Kshatriya but the thing is is because of his demonic nature he became so self-centered he became opposed to the Brahmins and the cows the Vedic culture but as long as that wasn’t there then he kept peace and order so everybody else maybe he wasn’t personally well situated in his personal development but he would control the kingdom so that everybody else could be right but when he got where he’s disrupting the the the actual fabric of it then he was removed what about Assistant Maharaj we have a Tamil president who is Tamil president by the structure of the system he’s Tamil president for just several years and then another Tamil president rotates in and then yet another one three years later or so yeah it’s fine whatever works the point is whoever is sitting on the seat he’s in charge that’s it the other two presidents then they can give advice but they’re not the last word that’s just the way it is because they’re not taking the responsibility who takes responsibility then they have the authority that’s the way it goes does that make sense yeah it’s that simple but people don’t they want the authority even though they don’t have the responsibility that’s cheating it’s nothing short of cheating that’s all you take if that committee takes full responsibility great go for it it’s not an ideal but you can get it to work you know where the committee management comes from you want to really know where it comes from that’s the village level in the Vedic system that’s village level yeah the panchayat there’s a certain group you have you know this brahmin and the blacksmith and you know this farmer and this and that so you represent what would be in a village and they make the decisions it’s just the committee and then they choose who’s kind of ahead but he’s not like the authority over them he just represents them you understand that’s where it comes from so people who are actually administrators don’t buy it it’s people who are not by this because as far as their administrative capacity it’s very village so they’ll come up and actually think that a committee will work you understand it can’t work there has to be someone calling the shots does the army work by a committee you’re out there on the field and you know the what do you call it the enemies coming over the hill so let’s have a committee meeting here and let’s vote we’re waiting for unanimity is that the way it works no ok and that board meets but who actually makes the decisions the president the president the CEO if they don’t like what he’s done they may remove and put someone else but he still calls the shots ultimately no functioning system works unless someone calls the shots you understand if a supreme court judge makes a decision what happens it’s not questioned it’s just that’s it you know the president says this is what’s happening that’s what happens you know they don’t like it afterwards they can go through a bureaucratic process and impeach him but when he says it you do it or it’s treason that’s all it’s just otherwise it doesn’t work there is no system that is run by a committee except a village because the village is moving slow enough it doesn’t matter it’s just manipulating something to make things work nicely in people’s lives it’s not actually administration you know what I’m saying and so village level you know generally that kind of thing and then bureaucracies we said shudras where you have these smarter class people who are involved in administrating on that you see the connection so the village level and the bureaucracy but but in that you need authority is anybody talking about a person an individual leader being the authority no they’re avoiding that that’s why they’re creating the committees and the bureaucracy is to avoid anybody having power so that’s coming either from shudras or from so called brahmins who have authority issues right in other words unprotected shudras unprotected brahmins come up with their kshatriyas they’ll just make their own arrangement or won’t get involved vices or go out and make some money and who cares you understand it’s very simple you can see just the logic of it is that ok yes yes ok but do we want to understand about connecting this to Krishna you know what I’m saying that’s the point because we’ve answered it we’ve already said we’ve said before how the kshatriya has advisors who administratively are junior to him but as far as as the relationship they’re senior to him and that’s the position so why would you bring up wouldn’t this isn’t it strange if there’s a kshatriya who doesn’t do that we’ve already said it’s wrong does that make sense so the point is that’s the standard but this is what we’re saying is this is not the forum for discussing fully Varanasi does that make sense like that that we’re going to do in Finland this summer like that is that ok like that so you want to get into details of that then go to Finland not now not right this time stay here now we’re discussing philosophy now does that make sense because this is this is the forum how to connect your position to Krishna so it’s touched on Varanasi so we brought out things just so we can see that it’s not a full discussion of Varanasi does that make sense farming cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaisyas and for the shudras there’s labor and service to others right so it matches labor and service to others because the natural thing is that service that they’re working under somebody but in case that’s not available then they can just do labor right means that they’re not you may hire them they work for you they go away and things like that they’re not your shudra you know what I’m saying so that’s common now so service is more prominent like that following the qualities of work every man can become perfect so what is the qualities of his work that’s what he has to do by worship of the Lord who is the source of all beings and who is all pervading a man can attain perfection through performing his own work right so here why mention he is all pervading why in this particular capacity source of all beings and who is all pervading yeah you’re all connected with the Lord everybody’s part of the Lord so therefore this system pervades through the cosmic creation because it’s the Lord’s body the Lord is pervading everything so it’s not that it’s not there in the spiritual world you have you still have the same divisions like that so it’s just how it works right so when it says Purusha Shukta is saying the Lord has arms and legs and heads you know and feet everywhere then that means all these varieties of nature is everywhere so all natures they’re actually coming from the Lord just the Jiva has a particular desire therefore he’s been put into that situation where he is given that particular nature that nature is still coming from the Lord yes yes society because the western society is so situated in passion and ignorance and so the point is is unless you see the fruitive results of the Varanashram you’re not going to do it or from ignorance is that you’re going to oppose it because that’s just the nature of ignorance right so I’m saying there’s no such concept of duty you know it’s like generally most places in the world though there is the element to come up it’s kind of like where you are situated that’s generally the you know this social system that you’ll function in and it’s accepted that as long as you’re taken care of it’s not difficult it’s not a problem the problem comes up is when you’re not protected right you understand but the the western system more especially the American system is that’s there but and you could be burdened down by that but actually it’s just you are whatever you make of yourself so you basically just claw your way to the top and whoever does hey they’re successful they’re glorified so it doesn’t matter but not that they should be up there you know what I’m saying yes devotional service can help and so basically speaking most devotees it’s not a problem it means the only problem comes is leadership like that for most devotees it’s not a problem correct me in society krishnakarana society krishnakarana you’re asking with robot give the medicine for that disease and destruction we are chanting Hare Krishna we chant and everything becomes purified and so then it becomes easy to figure out what you’re doing the point is there’s body mind and words are connected to Krishna so you have to use a medium so the brahmachari it’s not that his point is the sacrifice of that work right he’s doing work for someone else under someone else’s direction that’s his focus he’s engaging the senses but it’s not the engagement of the senses that’s his focus you understand it’s that that sacrifice that austerity right that will be more prominent for the grihasta that element is there but the medium is going to be that of the senses so it’s engaging the senses in connection with the sense objects and seeing that point of sacrifice you understand so since the idea is that we’re supposed to engage body mind and words in the lord’s service we should have an indication where to start so if you’re a brahmachari you know where to start if you’re a grihasta you know where to start you know what I’m saying in the same way if you’re a brahmachari you know where to start so varnashram is a tool to engage yourself in the lord’s service but we always approach it as a as a political and economic system right does that make sense because in the discussion over the last basically hour and a half of varnashram have there been any questions outside of political power and economics none you understand it’s who’s in control varnashram is not about who’s in control it’s about what you’re supposed to do to serve the lord you understand yeah so that’s the problem is that the devotees are taking varnashram as simply an external and political form and so they say oh we don’t want varnashram we want democracy it’s like you know it’s like saying no no we don’t want food we want you know chainsaws so what does that got to do are you going to eat a chainsaw for lunch you know what’s the connection right varnashram is democracy doesn’t include you know all the elements varnashram does therefore it includes even democracy in the vedic system democracy is there up to a lower level the lower court you know from the village level up to the lower court that is democracy it’s not democratic because it’s representative of the people but that’s not how you administrate you have to know what is good for the people and what the people need then you administrate but the people don’t know administration they know the guy sitting in his you know those not mobile homes trailer park right you know like that so what does he know about the administration he just knows that this guy he seems to be nice and what he’s saying you know is good you know lower taxes and this so of course he wants that and what does that got to do with you know the policy on you know how they deal with another country or you know you know what I’m saying whether they you know upgrade to a new new you know military airplane or gun what does it got to do with that you know what I’m saying you know if it was a matter of you know what the army was going to eat you know that maybe they could do you know is it going to be McDonald’s or Kentucky Fried Chicken then he might have a very strong and practical opinion you know what I’m saying so that’s the thing is that that he’s protected he’s able to perform his duties he’s able to fill his needs you know according to what he deserves then that the government should see it happens so therefore the democratic representation is there to make sure that the administrators know what’s going on in the country and besides knowing from that system they should go out themselves and personally see right they should personally see so that’s why the kings would dress up incognito and go out in the streets that’s how Ram heard you know about how the Dobi was talking the washerman because he was out you know doing they have to go out and see what’s happening because because you’re dealing with ministers and other people and all these different things and spies and stuff they may be well trained and know exactly what’s going on and they may not be so well trained or they may be motivated so the king has to go out himself to see so if his ministers have said that he’s gone out and seen that then it’s confirmed but the ministers say one thing he sees another thing we’ve got a problem so if he sits in his room and you know he gets his little email every now and then again you know about what’s going on in the management and then he thinks he’s on top of the management it’s not very well situated you understand so it’s not a political system it’s a it means it’s a philosophical system that practically applies in your life it’s the culture it’s the practical application of the philosophy you don’t understand the philosophy you won’t understand varnashram you can understand the philosophy you can understand varnashram it’s simple they go together does that make sense so that’s that’s the is it is it like that that the problem with administration appears when people feel unprotected yeah it means means that for the common person the problem is is if they’re not being protected yeah and for administration if they’re not getting protection means they’ve missed the point of what they’re actually supposed to do most think we’re supposed to manage no you’re supposed to protect management is a tool for protection right so the kings use management they use taxes and money so that they can have the infrastructure they have an army they have police right they have officers they have you know all these different things that’s also they can see that everything goes nicely to protect the people so those are tools that’s why if you have so many stories you have of the king he loses everything right or it was already lost before him you know his his father and his uncle has already you know did something or the great-grand you know father and like that and then they’re out hiding somewhere or living somewhere and then somehow another he comes up and there’s a you know opportunity and need and then he comes forward he was one man with nothing how did he come up and now he can organize so many things because he’s actually got that nature so these are tools so a Kshatriya is a Kshatriya whether he has a kingdom or is just himself the Pandavas they had nothing they were you know just as glorious as when they had the world you understand these are tools but because of the modern way of thinking where that’s not even modern it’s just the materialistic way of thinking that if the facility is actually the thing so if we have the power we have the money then we’re actually you know can manage no it’s that if you’re a manager then these things help if you don’t have you can still manage you know I’m saying like that people do big preaching programs though they have no money and no authority because they know how to organize they have people together they’re qualified discuss things everyone said okay I’ll do this I’ll do that and all the different things and then they put together a big festival but they did it from nothing you know like Gandhi also he was doing so many things he was a lawyer so like that can it be that the citizens actually are being protected but they just don’t feel it that’s there that’s also there but they so that they need training that’s also there if they’re being protected they don’t know but then that’s why you don’t want to avoid bad association that’s why the king’s army also have to see that those who have don’t know ongoing and disturbing those who are peaceful does that make sense woman has to try to be satisfied yes but the man has to be trying to arrange that she is satisfied yes like that yeah that combination that works because the point is people are supposed to be trying to go back to Godhead that’s what they’re trying to do so all these other things are secondary we make them very primary because of our condition nature but they’re not they’re not actually primary primary is understand these points connect yourself to Krishna that’s the real thing right if that’s in place everything else becomes very easy right because it doesn’t matter what you are you are that’s what you can do so the guy is ok you know he does have his job outside he is paid for it he’s a plumber ok so now he gives the Bhagavatam class and when the class is over and everybody leaves then he goes in the back and fix the sinks because they’re plugged up so is there a problem no so what’s the big deal it’s just the problem is that it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s you know, he sits down at the pub, you know, and all that kind of jazz. One of the dishwashers I’ve talked to, that’s a manager, he’s an amazing practitioner. Yeah, like that, because he’s always cleaning.
And so he’s probably one of the few people in the temple who actually does, maintains the standard of Krishna conscious cleanliness. And so because of that, he’s advancing, his heart is becoming purified, and because of that, there’s a realization. And if he’s willing to share that, you know, and say, you know, doesn’t feel shy, then he’ll give a very nice class. Like that. And Nuvandaban, one of the, how do you say, you know, very prominent persons there, he used to drive tractor all day.
Yeah, he’d dress Radharani and that, and all he’d ever talk about is Chaitanya Charita movement. He wouldn’t have a discussion. It’d always end up in Chaitanya Charita movement.
But I don’t see why.
The point is, is he’s gone through, he’s a sannyasi. It’s sannyasvarna.
It’s ashram. You understand? But now if he goes out and got a job outside, what would he do? He’d drive a tractor.
You understand? But he wouldn’t be capable of giving some amazing… What’s amazing? What is amazing? It’s Krishna. Yes. So the point is, is let’s say you have a quote.
Let’s say a quote. A quotation, right? You quote something. A quotation. They’re very short and simple. And they’ve come from practical realization of dealing with things. Very few has come from intellectual analysis. So the point is, is by working with something for some time, you get realization. So what’s the problem? If you’re able to speak according to what you understand and realize, it’s not a problem.
And the example has been here is we’re talking about mechanical sudras. What about an artist’s sudra?
They’re generally, they’re known as intellectuals.
You know what I’m saying? When you say, in the society, when you talk about the intellectuals, of course you have your academics and scientists, but that’s not generally what you think about socially. You know what I’m saying? You know, you’re having a big party. It’s not the, you know, how you say, the… The engineer. Yeah, the engineer, the quantum physicist. It’s the life of the party, right? You know what I’m saying? Like that. So who are those intellectuals? You know, he’s the big, what do you call it, interior designer, you know, or he’s a famous photographer, or he’s a famous actor, or a musician, right? So they’re dealing in the fine arts. So that means you’re dealing with the finer aspects of the mind. So if they apply that across, then it can be very intellectual.
You understand? So much of society’s intellectuals, many times, are shudras.
Right?
So does that make sense? At the same time, it may also be brahmins who have nothing else to do, and also end up as artists, you know, like that. It seems like, at least in this version of the Bhagavad Gita, we see that brahmana, basically, the qualities are listed. Kshatriyas, qualities in the middle of occupation, and shudras, and, you know, vaisyas, they’re basically occupation. Yes. There’s a… So it’s occupationally based, not quality-based or philosophically based. Pretty much quality-based. Yeah. So that’s why, then, we see in a bourgeois culture, which means vaisya-based, it’s very hard to understand the varnasrama system, which is quality-based. You know? Because what’s important is the power and the money, not the qualities.
You know? That’s the difficulty. All right. So, in our society, we’re so growing, so we need varnasrama, you know? To make us different.
What is the system to identify each individual of our society? It means individuals identify themselves, or if you need help. But, as I said, are you married or not?
Right? Okay, not. Okay, so then that means you’re not a grihastha. So that means a brahmachari vanaprastha sannyasa. Okay? Were you married?
Okay. So then that means now we’re dealing with, you know, vanaprastha sannyasa. You know, have you gone through the ritual of sannyasa?
No. Okay, so that’s vanaprastha.
Okay. That was how many seconds? Okay. Okay. Now, as an occupation, if you were doing something, how are you going to engage yourself?
You know what I’m saying? Is it going to be an intellectual field, administrative field, economic field, or an arts?
You know? If you were going to make money right now, we said you have to go out and make money. What would you do?
You know? So that’s done. So that’s what we said. It’s either intellectual, it’s administrative, it’s economic, or you assist these three.
So if you’re leading that, then you’re one of those three. If you’re assisting that, then it’s sugar.
You know what I’m saying? So it’s like a one-minute exercise to figure out where you are.
Huh?
But the point is, it’s not difficult. When do people start eating lunch? When they’re hungry. When they’re hungry. If they’re not hungry, it’s not going to happen. So the point is, is that it’s an easy thing, but the point is, is if you do that, that means then there’s authority. God is authority. He has his laws. We have to fit into that. All right? Not popular. Didn’t work for Socrates.
All right? What people want is, I do whatever I want to do, and nobody tells me what I should do. So that’s the mode of ignorance.
So that’s where most people are happy to be situated. Well, happy. Hmm? Well, happy. They say they’re happy. Of course. But that’s the part of ignorance. It’s illusion. You think you’re happy.
So what about, you know, in our society, you know, it’s a problem, but this occupation is sugar. What to do? Because it means he could do other things, but, you know, no one’s going to support the deity worship. No one cares about samskaras. No one, you know, thinks that home programs are really important and all that. And even if he came for a home program, why should we give him money? He’s a devotee. He should do it for free. So what are the brahmins supposed to do? Fix the sink. Fix the sink, yeah. At least it’s to do with cleanliness, right? Some stretch is there.
So he’s just to consider himself a brahmin. The point is, is he has brahminical nature, but it doesn’t mean he’s rightly situated. It means you have, in Manu, he just defines the natural position, and then what happens if you can’t be in your natural position?
Like that. So that’s all defined. So you can have non-ideal, but if the ideal point of Manu is if it’s not ideal, and therefore you have a job as a plumber, fine. But if a job came up that you could be brahminical, you should take it. If you don’t take it, then you will be reclassified as a shudra, and that’s the king’s business. It’s the king’s business to see that everybody is doing their duty, right? In other words, if a brahmin has taken up business, and he’s doing that because there’s nothing else, but the opportunity is there to actually perform brahminical duties, but he doesn’t want to do it. He wants to continue business. He’ll be reclassified as a vishra. He won’t be a brahmin anymore. That’s the kshatriya’s business.
Right? But the kshatriyas do that under the advice of their advisors, in a sense.
So…
I’m thinking we’re over time.
Possible conclusion is not perfection, not philosophy.
Possible conclusion, what? Not perfection, not philosophy. Not protection, not philosophy. What does that mean? No protection, no philosophy.
No protection, no philosophy. Is this like a political slogan?
No protection, no philosophy. If we don’t get protected, we don’t buy the philosophy. The status quo.
We could say no philosophy, no protection. That you could probably get by with.
Yeah, when you don’t understand the philosophy, then you won’t understand your duty, because the Vedic culture is based on elevating oneself to the Brahman platform. That requires knowledge. The whole Gita, Krishna’s is talking about knowledge. So if you don’t have knowledge, you won’t be able to get to that platform. So without the philosophy, that’s what Prabhupada said, philosophy without culture is mental speculation.
You understand? So that’s basically… In the discussions here, most of the time, the ideas that are coming up are not on application of the Vedic system. It’s couldn’t we do this, or couldn’t we do that? Which is mental speculation on theories.
You understand? So that’s because the culture is not in place.
You know what I said? Does that make sense? So that’s the difficult… The two have to be there. If it’s just culture without philosophy, then it’s sentiment. So those who say we just have to establish Varnashram, Dharma, and all that, and all this philosophy is not so important, that’s just sentiment. Because what they mean is if everybody grows cabbages, that’s Varnashram.
No, that’s called farming.
Varnashram includes farming, but farming doesn’t include Varnashram.
And as we said, when you only focus on one work, and that’s the all-in -all, that’s the mode of ignorance. So that’s why most people can’t establish Varnashram, who are supported because of this element of the mode of ignorance, is they think one work is all there is. You know what I’m saying? So if you want to establish Varnashram, you establish education.
You establish a farm, that means you can organize those who are already there into something, if you know what you’re doing. But you actually generate Varnashram from education. And because education is not a focus, therefore there’ll be no Varnashram. Because Brahmins create other Brahmins. Brahmins create Kshatriyas. Kshatriyas don’t create themselves. Kshatriyas create the environment in which Vaishyas and Shudras can flourish. If the environment is good, they’ll tend to be good. If the environment is bad, they’ll tend to be bad. So if you want Varnashram, you have to create Brahmins. Because they’ll create Kshatriyas, and the Kshatriyas will organize the rest. They don’t have to worry about it. So the problem is, is the Brahmins aren’t acting as Brahmins, therefore there’s no Kshatriyas, therefore there’s no Varnashram.
Do Vaishyas create Vaishyas?
In the, how you say, as far as doing business, yes.
But as far as having the character to do that, then generally that requires the Brahmins.
You know what I’m saying? If you want a high-grade Vaishya with good character, that has to be created by the Brahmins. The Vaishya will train you in business.
No, then the point is, is you’re dealing on character.
That means the Vaishya is honest, or he’s religious. Is that qualities that are generated from business? No, they’re generated from the Brahmins. Does that make sense?
Like that, if the Brahmin knows, then he can teach the field, but he won’t teach the business.
A Vaishya needs to know jewels, ornaments, cloth, spices, condiments, grains. He has to know transportation, he has to know languages, he has to know how the money works. All these different things. Does that make sense? Then you’re good at it, but most Vaishyas don’t even teach you that either. Because the point is, is that the Vaishya makes money, what’s he going to do with it?
He’s going to buy stuff. So if he doesn’t know what good jewels are, how does he know he’s not getting cheated? If he doesn’t know cloth, how does he know he actually did get a great silk sari? Have you learned from other Vaishyas what is good cloth? Can, but are they necessarily going to teach you? Why would a Vaishya teach another Vaishya?
If you work for them, yeah, but how much are you going to teach them? Not as much as you would your own son. Or someone who’s proven themselves over time that you have trust in. So it’s not a very efficient way. Well there’s a new system that’s developed in the West, like multi-level marketing.
Yeah, but the point is, Vaishya’s teaching Vaishyas, but the point is, is the economic system is run by Brahmins.
You know what I’m saying? Why the stock market does what it does and that it can, that wasn’t created by Vaishyas.
You know what I’m saying? The guys who run the, how do you call it? The reserve bank.
Yeah, they’re not Vaishyas.
They’re Brahmins who know how economics works. Because they know that you push over here and something happens here. Vaishyas know, I buy this, I find who I’m selling it to, they like it, they buy it, I make money.
You understand? So therefore it’s there, so it’s a combination, you get these combinations. You understand? So it still comes back to, ultimately it’s run like that. Because the Vedic system means, you know, you’re not, it means the local panwala may be included, but we’re talking here, if we’re talking kings, we’re talking what level of economics?
Bankers. Right, we just take it that, you know, okay, there’s a Brahmin here, and there’s this and that, then there’s these big, you know, money guys. Well, these big money guys, when they were kids, were in the Gurukul, in the Vedic system.
And so they learn the character, otherwise how is he going to be successful in his family life, if he has no character? He doesn’t have sense control. He won’t be able to do business, right? Isn’t that, that’s the fifth principle of business, right? Is sense control. Does he learn that from any businessman? Did they, when you did your MBA, did they teach you sense control? No, that’s the point. You learn that from a teacher. You learn that from a character. Your father, who may have it, may tell you, you have to do this. Right? You know, so you may have a line like that, that at some point in the family they got that. So the guys are filthy rich, they’re Rockefellers, but you go back, you know, they’re probably very religious. And if you go back some time, it was very much involved with priests.
That’s there, but the point is, is, is the principle is without character development, the Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas won’t be able to do their basic jobs.
Yes, but the point is, is what is character development?
Yes, and where do those qualities come from?
And where do the Brahmins get it? And where does the Shastra get it? Okay, so the point is, is the qualities come from Krishna. The qualities are Krishna. So unless you can connect them to Krishna, then it’s basically useless.
They don’t get it from Brahman because they don’t know Brahman exists.
They get it because they know that it’s a skill that works. The only reason that they’re worried about controlling their senses is because it makes their business better. If it didn’t make their business better, they couldn’t care less about sense control. But someone in the Vedic culture cares about sense control whether their business goes nicely or not.
That’s the difference.
There’s no concept of moksha, there’s no concept of dharma. You’re only talking Ardha, you’re actually talking Niti here. It works, that’s all.
They have, they understand that there are inherent natures in something. You address somebody’s ego, or somebody’s need for prestige, or being recognized, or sense gratification, and you use that to your advantage in advertising, they buy your product. So they understand that.
You know what I’m saying? If you have an adult and a child in an advertisement, everybody likes it. Why?
There’s relationship, there’s protection. So you think in this, then relationships will be enhanced and protection will be there. You’re secure. You’re secure and there’s going to be nice interaction. Because they’re not, they’re standing there, they’re interacting, they’re smiling. But that psychology comes from the inherent nature of the human being. And that human being is supposed to be engaged in the Lord’s service. So for them, the nature is not because they have a nature, therefore we should do this. No, we want to do this, therefore we take advantage of the nature. You understand? So it still goes back to Niti.
So they’re very intelligent, they’re very like this, and most of the people that work out their theories are Brahmins. Though you’re very high-grade Vaishyas, having been cultivated in this way, then they can work out many details themselves. Because that’s what you’re supposed to do. You’re supposed to take what you’ve learned from the teacher and apply it in your life. 25% of what you use in your life is from the teacher. 25% from your studies, 25% from others’ experience, and 25% from your own.
What was the question?
That’s the problem.
That’s where the conversation started.
It’s from the teacher.
You understand here? This is what you’re supposed to see.
This is what you’re supposed to congregate. You’re supposed to be able to see this. If you can see this in yourself, you’ll be able to see it in others. You’re supposed to see. Because what we’re talking about exactly here, the modes and how they function, is how things go on, the questions, the conversations, how they go, the different things. You understand?
I just reminded you. Devotee came up for initiation, probably the four regular principles, and then he remembered three of them, couldn’t remember the fourth. Then after some time, he rents in the fourth, and then probably said, don’t do that.
Because that one was the problem.
Is that okay? In other words, see, they’re very intelligent. We can give them that credit, and if we put them in that higher level, then how much higher are the saintly kings and Brahmins?
If that is just the level of economics, which is on the level of pranamoy, what about those situated in manamoy, vijnanamoy? And then there’s the devotees, ananamoy. So just that they’re very well situated in the second level of consciousness, that’s all.
But we’re talking here, fifth level, and how to engage the other four in that fifth level. Because the fifth means being Krishna conscious. You’re Krishna conscious by engaging your nature. Everyone has a nature. So we have our constitutional nature, but we have our conditional nature. We’re working with our conditional. It’s the same principle. It doesn’t matter.
I have a gold goblet, and I have a cheapo plastic glass. Is there any difference in the function? So that’s the point, is the constitutional nature and the conditioned nature have the same purpose.
They don’t function differently. It’s just your consciousness, whether you connect it to Krishna or you don’t. Does that make sense? That’s the only difference. So it’s not a matter of, oh, this and that, so things are so developed. Fine, but where are they from? It’s still God’s intelligence, God’s principles. They can’t do anything outside of the laws. All it is is they’ve become aware, they’ve educated themselves by perception as to the laws. But it would be so much easier if they started from authority and then applied that authority to perception. But people think the two are completely separate.
Gita is there, and that’s great for my spiritual stuff, but in practical stuff, then I just use my senses. But Krishna here has not said anything that can’t be applied into your practical life, nothing.
And he gives it from so many angles so you can see the various layers and various approaches.
Does that make sense? So we shouldn’t be enamored by their expertise, because their expertise is simply in a skill of manipulating material energy. But how that works, why it works, that they wouldn’t have any clue. Nothing. Not one of them.
Well, I don’t think it’s so widespread that people have a misconception of this economics and connecting to Krishna. I mean, I even speak with Indians, and they say, oh, yeah, I did that at the end of my life. I rebounded to Krishna at the end of my life. I’m here to make money. But that’s why Krishna consciousness is necessary. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur said, there’s no shortage of anything except Krishna consciousness. There’s plenty of everything. There’s people that are expert in anything you want to know.
But the difficulty comes down as Krishna consciousness.
Is that OK?