Okay, so, explain how the spirit is the basic field of creation. Pratigya. Spirit is the basic field of creation, and matter is created by spirit. Right? So, so spirit is, how do you say, something like that, yeah, I mean spirit here we’re meaning Brahman, so Brahman is the basic field of creation, right? So matter is created by spirit, it means because of the desire of the living entity, therefore you have the manifestations, right? The living entity doesn’t have a desire, there is no manifestation, right? So it’s being created as it was before, because the living entities have desire, you know, but it runs the same patterns, they’re running through the same moments, through the same patterns of life and same patterns of activities, so the same facilities are always created, right? Narada Muni is mentioning that in the last, you know, universe that he was in, then it was the same as here, you know what I’m saying, you know, it might be, you know, this city is over there, that city is over here, but the principle of a city, you know, of a field, of a mine, you know, of a forest, of the animals, people, what they do, everything is exactly the same. You know, it’s just like you go from one country to another, it’s the same, right? You know, there’s some slight little differences of this and that, but that’s always there, right? But the principle is the same, you know, we’ll say the Western world, but you go, and each country is different, but we’ll call them the same, right, because the principle is all the same, how they work, right? Your third world, anywhere you go in the third world, it’s all the same, right, just some places are more clean and some places are more dirty, right? We happen to be in one of the dirtier ones, right, you know, so, yeah. You know, so spirit is the basic field. The difficulty is when we think matter is the field, when we say the field of activity, we think it’s matter that’s the field, you know, okay, the field is, you know, all this material energy. No, it’s not. Brahman is the field, right, but you’re dealing with two kinds of Brahman. The jiva is Brahman and the external potency is Brahman, right? So according to the desire of the jiva, then the external potency manifests, right? And not seeing that the field is Brahman, that’s illusion. So that’s where maya comes in, does that make sense? So here that we say spirit, that’s the basic field, and in reality, the actual, the real element of the field is that, is that, it’s the living entities that create the field, right?
That’s, that’s what we’re not catching, because they have a desire to be in a situation, so that situation is, is created. So you could even say it’s simply the desire of the living entity, right? You can also say here’s matters created by spirit, you can even take it further, is that in the primary creation, then the Lord and His internal potency, then on this platform Brahman, they establish all the different forms and activities that can be performed within the material world, right? So therefore, because of the desire of the jiva, Brahman, then the Lord and His Brahman feature, then, then creates the environment, the, the principles on which the, the matter Brahman can be transformed into, does that make sense? Does the materialist also think he creates the field, only he thinks the field is matter? Does the materialist create, feel he creates the field? Yeah, it means, means, because why would you call something a field? Because there’s room for some situation or some activity. Yeah, but which would be, but someone else’s field you’re worried about? No. Only your own, right? So therefore the, the living entity will feel, I am creating this, I am making all this happen. That’s the difficulty. Is that, is that it’s always about themselves, but it’s about themselves as matter. You know, me, my body and my mind, my intelligence, we have created this field. It’s not, it’s not understood as, no, I’m the soul. And even this body and all that’s been created by matter. But because of spirit, I as spirit desired it and the Lord is the supreme spirit manifested. You know, I mean, I say, gave a sanction in his potency, so therefore it could be done like that. So, so the real point is, is still comes down to the living entity and the Lord are interacting. Those who understand that, they’re liberated. Those who don’t, then they’re conditioned.
You know what I’m saying? The idea that living entity gets away from God, you know, it’s not a reality. It won’t happen. It can’t happen. Right? It’s just a matter of whether you recognize it or not. You know what I’m saying?
Is that, is that what it says? Yeah. So it’s just like, yeah.
So you get, you’ll get the, yeah.
Okay.
Okay, then, then the next point. Take the reason, spirit is not created at a certain stage of material development. Rather, this mature world is manifest only on the basis of spiritual energy. Right? Because it’s the Lord is sanctioning, is taking the forms in that, that he, he defines.
Like that. So it’s his potency that, that anything functions. You know, we’ll say, oh, this is the modern machine, man has made it. But it only functions on the principles that God gave. Right? Electricity still works the way electricity works. Right? You know, metal works the way it works. Glass works the way it works. Plastic works the way it works. So, so, so it’s still all, it’s all still God’s energy. And it’s still functioning the way God said it’ll function. Now, we may be able to put things together. But that doesn’t mean that we’re the creators. You know, somebody goes, takes a tree, you know, and then makes it into a piece of furniture. That it’ll be harder to be able to, how do you say?
He would generally have a feeling that, you know, he’s creating something, but out of, you know, something that God’s given. If he’s more smart, he’ll understand that, you know, God gives the ability and the intelligence and all that. But if not, whatever. It’s easier. But as the more you move away, it’s a principle in the, in the, in the Vastu Shastra. Is that, Vastu? Pancaratta, where they’re talking about building. See, you have those things that are directly from the, from the, from the earth. So if something’s made directly out of earth or, you know, bamboo, wood, you know, grass, leaves, these kind of things, then it has very little illusory power to it. Right? I mean, something is there, of course. We think it’s my house, like this and that. But if you have a mud hut with a thatched roof, you know, or a bamboo hut with a thatched roof, there’s not a whole lot of illusion about it. Right? You know, I mean, you might get into some kind of, you know, oh, it’s so nice and so natural and that kind of thing. But still, it has this limit of covering.
Right? Now, as you process, the first stage is you process that. Right? So then you take the earth and you fire it into a brick. Right? So it’s still natural. Right? And then you’re using the lime and all that as the mortar, you know, or you take the earth and make tiles. Then it comes a touch more, that illusory covering comes. Does that make sense? So when it’s defining architecture, it’s defining you have the one that’s closest to the natural. Then you have the next stage where you take the natural and basically in its form, just transform it enough to make it more permanent. Right? Instead of popping out like this. You know, you have the wooden thing, but then you make it very nice and you finish it or you lacquer it or other things like this. It takes on another level. Right? Then when you get into like where you actually do major transformation, like metals and other things like that, metals, glass, you know, like that, then that takes it to another level of, you know, more shiny and more like that. And so then something like, you know, plastics and other would be even another level. You understand? So the more farther it gets away, the more that that illusory covering is there. Does that make sense? So then we become distracted, but it’s actually, it manifests only on the basis of spiritual energy, the desire of the jivas and the potency and sanction of the Lord. That’s what’s going on. Right? Material energy is simply the medium through which it is made. Like just like, means if you look at it in reality, why is there a painting?
Right? Means you have these master’s paintings. Right? Why are they there in reality? Inspired by what? By spirit. Yes. Okay. But now just in practical, why did it go on? Why was that picture? Why did that picture happen?
To make the situation more permanent. Yes. But then, but, but who wanted to make it more permanent? The guy who commissioned it and then who painted it. The artist. Right? So actually it’s two living entities. Right? It’s spirit. But the medium is matter. Right? So your canvas, your oils, you’re like this. You understand? So the manifestation is through matter, but the reason that it’s happening is because of spirit.
You understand?
But it’s very rare you have a painting if it’s not going to somehow another, you know, go from the painter to someone else.
Does that make sense? Yes. As Prabhupāda says, depending on what the purport for that example is, he says one should not get confused between the painter, the painting, and the easel. Yeah. I did. You did. You thought, I am the easel. No, I wasn’t sure. So that’s why you couldn’t paint. I wasn’t sure what was… You have to figure the canvas.
I wasn’t sure what was what, you know. What was what? Like the… Okay. The painter is the one that kind of has the arms and fingers and picks up the brush and kind of mixes it around and makes that kind of mess on the board that we can’t understand that they seem to understand very well. Right? The canvas is the thing that he actually paints on. And when the canvas sits on, that’s called the easel.
It says that here now. Is that what you meant or…? No.
According to this…
Okay. It means you have the… In this case… Well, it could be he’s either making it that it’s three things or he’s saying that you have to be able to tell the difference. It means you have the material energy on which something is based. Then there’s the specific function that’s happening, which is the painting. And then you have the painter. Right? Like that. So the painter means you have the jiva but at the same time you can also say that you have the Lord. You know what I’m saying? This is the Lord who is actually making the things happen. Like that. You know what I’m saying? So it means, in other words, the nature is so beautiful because that’s how God arranged it. But someone else is taking care of it. You know? Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay. Then we have…
Then explain… Okay. So now, next points are about how the Supersoul is the original cause of the universe and how, refuting the statement, we also create like God. Right? Because that’s the problem that comes up. Okay. Duddhaharana. This material world is developed because spirit is present within matter. A child grows gradually to boyhood and then to manhood because that superior energy, spirit soul, is present. Similarly, the entire causing manifestation of the gigantic universe is developed because of the presence of the Supersoul.
So you have… Right? The soul is in the body. Therefore, it… So many things happen. Right? So… And the Lord, the Supersoul, is in the universe. Therefore, the universe is happening. Right? Does that make sense? So, it’s only happening because the Lord’s there. But what happens is specifically according to the desire of the living entity. But what can happen is by the Lord’s arrangement. You know what I’m saying? So the universe is there. What are the facilities? But what you do with them, that’s what the jiva does.
Does that make sense? Like, let’s say you have a… have a…
a living room. Right? So then the living entity will go into the living room and then according to what he wants to do, sit here, stand there, do whatever he does. Right? But then if you have a kitchen, then they’ll do different activities. Right? So, in other words, the environment is already created by someone else. What can be done? Right? But the jiva’s just within that makes these choices. Right? So he’s small in this. Yes? He said that because the jiva’s are present in the material universe, therefore the universe is going on. Going on, meaning going on means that okay, you have a city happening here. Why? Because God wants a city there. Right? No, it’s because the living entities have an interest. But the principle of what a city is, how you’d build a city, how you’d run a city, all that God’s already created before. Right? Now it’s just you follow, you know, through the modes, by the influence of the modes, the living entity wants to be involved in a city, so therefore the modes of nature take care of it and the city is created. And the materialist or condition soul they will argue that they can’t see how a person or personages are in control of things like the wind or water. Why? They want someone else? They want, you know… They can’t see the arrangement or they don’t have experience of living with the influence of things that are more subtle. You know, it’s just like to the child yeah, I mean if it’s appropriate it can be extended you know beyond the age of sixteen. Okay? But in general we’re just taking that in the house the boy in the house okay how do the clothes get washed and ironed and put back into well, first of all picked up off the floor then washed ironed folded and put back you know in their drawer cupboard or you know hung on the in the closet. How does that happen? Because he’s conscious of it?
No.
Yeah. You understand? So a superior power is taken care of it’s an unseen power right? Right? How does food happen? Right? Just as he walks into the kitchen as he walks in it’s just it’s there right? At maximum he might see you know the mother you know doing something the last stage you know how much he can tolerate that last you know I say four or five seconds before he’s gotta eat right? But but what happened before that? How how are their stock in the kitchen? Why are there pots and pans? You know who’s paying the gas bill or the electric bill? You know who went out and bought the oven? You know who got the guy to come and fix the you know the sink?
You know what I’m saying? That is not seen. The first time I ever saw a dirty sink when I moved out of the house out of the home at about nineteen I realized okay You were shocked and then you figured out it’s wait a minute this means I gotta eat it Mom!
So then you told your mom she could come over and visit any time she wanted and ideally a few times a week right?
Maharaj this Najeeba’s desiring to create Najeeba desires to create because the Lord creates right? because we’re part of Masala Yeah so it’s there but but the point is it’s still he’s independent we’re not so that means he can create we can take part in creation you know what I’m saying? you know it’s just like let us say um you know give a a rough example it’s like I may not need anything here okay like you have in a musical performance right? you have the person who’s singing or playing sitar or something like that right? then you have the guy who plays the tambura right? does that make sense? so the tambura guy is only assisting in it the music’s being made by someone else does that make sense? you know? so in other words they have a musical interest but they don’t have that same ability you know? so you see it in every way in the kitchen you have the cooks but you have all the other guys who you know wash or cut or assist you know? construction the main guys and other guys that carry things around and everything like that oh just as a side point they were doing a test the other day one of the schools on uh Varanashram and so it was supposed to define you know Brahma, Kshatriya, Vaiseshu Vaiseshudra right? so uh then uh in the definition they came up with Kshatriya is one who protects the people from Maya right? good good yeah like that and then Vaiseshudra was a guy that doesn’t have much intelligence so he has to carry around boxes and stuff like that so I guess that’s like a ten year old’s view on Varanashram okay so so does that make sense? so it’s it’s in other words we have that interest in it but we ourselves can’t actually do it but the desire then the lord through his energies gets that done right? through his internal potency the external potency then all these things happen but the point is because they desired to it’s it’s because for god being god isn’t the big deal right? for us it’s a big deal right? we’re the big guy we’re in charge we’re the power because we’re not you know what I’m saying? but for god being god is pretty normal right? and he has no competition you know so he never has to worry about there’s no insecurity you know I’m saying somebody from some village somewhere decides he’s god it doesn’t get him upset it’s not like Indra you know some sage is doing austerities he gets worried it’s not like that you know the whole universe could you know say they’re god and it wouldn’t matter I can also see that the analogy that you gave us before about what I constantly want to create yeah yeah one may say oh no but you know we build permanent things yeah it’s just like just look at you know the skyline of any city and how long is it there for? they put up this big building like now I don’t know what it is now because it may be out of date but when I was there oh maybe a long time ago six years we were in Hong Kong in like what was that?
74 right? so then you had like the main roads like Nathan Nathan Drive what is it? Nathan whatever something then you know you had these 20 story buildings right? but everything else were these like you know five, six, seven story buildings you know residential you know regular standard like Asian looking you know places to live and then when I went back and visited in yeah that was what did they say? 74 so like 2004 something like that then you can’t build a building I think less than 50 stories tall so now they knocked down 20 or 30 story buildings and put up 50 story buildings you know so one could say no but we we’re doing permanent stuff the kid in the sandbox you know is making some temporary stuff but it’s like you know the same buildings that were there when I was there aren’t there anymore you know they’re knocked down and they put up bigger ones does that make sense? so it’s always like that you know and then then you have the thing is you know they build in the sandbox and like that and then you always have the guy that’s got to smash whatever somebody else does you know like that you notice oh that’s very juvenile like that yeah but the difference is is there you use this foot the other one you come in a plane and bomb the place then you’re considered an adult like that you know you know what I’m saying so it’s just it’s the same principle like that but it comes back to control you know I’m the creator and the maintainer I’m the destroyer generally we’re the creator and the destroyer sometimes the moms they maintain but you know everybody else creates and destroys so there’s that so okay Upanaya further explanation right because in other words you’ve given the reason then you give the example then you give further explanation means where you now simply bring them together where you don’t see the difference therefore spirit and matter which combine to manifest this gigantic universal form are originally two energies of the Lord and consequently the Lord is the original cause of everything a fragmental part and parcel of the Lord namely the living entity may be the cause of a big skyscraper a big factory or even a big city but he cannot be the cause of a big universe the cause of the big universe is the big soul or the super soul that’s interesting the big soul is the small soul or the big soul or he uses a a fragmental part and parcel not even the a right and then you have the big soul and Krishna the supreme is the cause of both the big and the small souls therefore he is the original cause of all causes right this is Swahili the title for Back to Godhead is Wana Ki Mango which means Wana goes back to the big boss the big boss ok he goes back to the big boss ok yeah ok so now Krishna means you have the the small soul the big soul and then Krishna is the source cause of of both right so Krishna creates the universe right and the living entity can do something within it right does that make sense and then the dead matter because now we’re not so much discussing the dead matter you know it has been discussed before yes so in this further explanation I don’t understand clearly the the mixing of the reason and the example you know because you see is you’re dealing with two levels at once you’re dealing with the soul and his concept of creation right then you’re dealing with the Lord and the actual creation right so in here is that and the point is is that the material energy is subservient to both you know what I’m saying so now the Jiva is wanting to create right so then he can make his you know whatever it is you know skyscraper a factory a city you know like that you know so ok and then but he’s having to work within the laws of God with God’s energy right and with God’s potency and with God’s sanction right well yeah so the point is is the universe means God has established the elements that you can create from he has created what can be created how it will be created you know and what is required to create it you know in other words what piety do you have to have or impiety to create it so all the standards all the principles all the standards everything is set by him right but that’s unseen right because the Lord is imminent right so you don’t see the Lord means his potencies are there but you don’t see it so the living entity then is trying to to does his creation but he unfortunately thinks I’m the one doing this he doesn’t understand it’s the Lord that’s that’s actually doing it through the material energy so because of that that confusion comes up so we’re pointing out is that first of all the point I mean the overall point is that the the material the living entities you know and the material energy is subordinate to the Lord right but the for self so that’s that’s necessarily a self-realization but then the next stage where the living entity means that this material energy what we call the material world is actually based on spirit the combination between the the big soul and the small soul right so that’s why the two have to be explained because our endeavors our activities we will think it’s coming from myself right but the the problem is is it’s not we have the desire but that desire is being fulfilled by the Lord oh that’s what we were discussing before is that so for the Lord being God is not the big deal right so for him it’s interacting with the living entities so for him to create the facility for interaction is not a problem for him and even if someone else thinks no I’m I’m I’m creating this right then then it doesn’t it doesn’t it doesn’t bother him as long as the interaction goes on right for the child they don’t think about it that you know the reason there’s a house to play in and interact with the family members because the parents arranged it right you know does that make sense so the parents arranged the house they arranged the furniture they arranged how it’s set up and all that then in playing you know the kid wants to take you know a cushion off of the the sofa and create a fort and that and that way then interact with the parents you know for them it’s fine you know as long as it’s within the rules right you know you don’t take the balls off and that’s part of your no that doesn’t happen right you know so there’s as long as it’s within the rules of the house then how the child works with it is fine as long as it creates interaction does that make sense yes so the point is this interaction you know if the kid just stays in the room all day then the parents are not really satisfied right so this is a general principle it’s a general principle is that what you’re saying and in this in this it’s always the same system to get a general principle yeah it’s always the same system because you have a point because the point here is you say spirit is the basic field of creation of matters created by spirit what’s to argue with means you can find something but there’s nothing really to argue with ok spirit’s the basic field of creation right you know if I you know you know what I’m saying so there’s nothing to argue with but as soon as then I say the reason spirit is not created at a certain stage of material development rather this material world is manifest only on the basis of spiritual energy now I have something to argue about you understand because spirit is not created at a certain stage of material development no it’s created because of illusion it’s created because of the combination of matter you know like this now there’s something to argue about rather it’s manifest only on the basis of spiritual energy no it’s not where’s the spiritual energy it’s just I’m doing this so now we have argument so then you give your examples to get rid of that because you know the souls in the body so things are going on so that means in the universe because this big soul is there therefore things go on like that and so we’re making the distinction because the point is that the soul is serving to the supreme lord so example should get rid of doubt example is for getting rid of the doubt in other words the reason explains your thesis but the reason is also the cause of the doubt right and so then the Udaharna the example is to explain the reason to remove the doubt right right so some become confused and think that there’s two systems of logic no it’s one system because one like this this is this is what Prabhupada uses which is Gotama right means you have your thesis reason example further explanation and then supporting quotation some scripture and everything or what you know what connects it to the next thing because once you’ve established one point that point you have the next point naturally comes up right does that make sense so it’s natural but at the same time this also can be explained where there’s you know there’s the thesis then there’s the doubt or the antithesis then you get example like that then there’s the synthesis and then there’s conclusion it’s the same thing but all it is is one is just your line of presentation the other is including dealing with the doubt because if there’s no doubt what’s the need of having a thesis does that make sense you know it’s like it means if everybody eats something in the same way there’s no problem right but if there’s a difference you know somebody is like you put the bread in the toaster and when it comes out as quickly as possible you put the butter on it right then but the other school is no you take it out let it cool then put the butter on it right does that make sense but so there’s a doubt there why would you do that you know because the one is like your bread becomes soggy and the other one is how much butter can you get in when it’s cold you know so you know what I’m saying so one is looking for crispness and one is looking for you know how you say buttery obscenity you know like that so you have two schools so they have a doubt comes up does that make sense but if everybody there’s no there’s no need of it so it automatically includes dealing with the doubt it’s just a matter of how you’re defining it so like that so the two points of definition are the same thing like that but you know I’ll probably use Gotama like that but as we go you’ll see a lot more the definition sometimes will be used that Vyasa uses in Vedanta Sutra okay so it’s just standard you say a point and then you know you say this and they go what do you mean and then you explain it and it’s a no no you know like that and then they’ll say their thing you say your thing and then you have to somehow or another your thing is you know this unless of course you’re using Nigra Hastan where you just crush it you know but otherwise so you brought it near but in pieces you know but whatever like that and then there’s your conclusion and then there’s what’s now the next step you know so does that make sense you know like that yeah so it means that in all all the Acharya commentaries they always use is always this means this whole concept of Adhikaranas yes and the Adhikaranas they deal with these points the Adhikaranas are presented through this form there’s always going to be your main Adhikarana which is the thesis right but all these other Adhikaranas are also there because the points being made they themselves in themselves can be their own points or theses you know is that we couldn’t say there’s a big soul and there’s a small soul that could be our thesis you know you know what I’m saying so so therefore every point of explaining the Panchanganya is an Adhikarana but they’re all in support of the actual main one the thesis so so therefore you could call them all Adhikaranas or just the main one right so it doesn’t get confusing on confusing we just you know call them the main point but they’re all Adhikaranas you know so this this method this is what the Acharyas use so it may be presented in that way to make it more clear because generally those who study or deal with that level of study then they’re accustomed to that so then they expect to see it very clearly laid out those who are not it’s still still valid it’s just that you don’t have to identify it you know what I’m saying so in other words we’re just taking from the purports and going through and most likely if you check these points of where they are in the purports are in order it’s not that this was here we moved that up to here and this and that you know what I’m saying sometimes for the language itself the English sometimes two of them will be combined just because it flows very nicely but the point is is they’re always there they’re never not there so it’s just all the Acharyas that’s why the the Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur makes the point and probably quotes that that in you know in intellectual circles then it’s you know discussion is in this form because otherwise then it’s just it’s whimsical it’s just emotional what you feel like you know so it’s like you know you gotta do this you know so it’s you know but why because this is oh but you always say like that you know so now they’ve changed right they’ve changed the discussion instead of it being whether you’re supposed to do this or not it’s that you always talk like this you know and I what do you mean I never always talk like yeah I know but on this time it’s just all it is is that this is technically what was called Jalpa where you just you just change the conversation so it’s it’s used in logic but it’s not considered in other words if you’re only trying to win these are all the techniques but as far as real conversation real discussion they’re not considered proper like that you know or another one is you know you see all the time like when we go back I don’t know if you remember back to our how you say you know our what was it our neon neon Hitler on acid like that yeah but if you’ll notice in those conversations that then they use another technique of logic which is called Chala Chala means Chala means move means you you’ve given you’ve said the word like this and they move the meaning of the word over you know you know so it’s like this let me say it means like let’s say you’re saying it means you’re trying to say is you know it would be natural to do like that and then you say that’s not natural you know it’s made out of artificial ingredients it’s two different discussions you know one is whether it’s you know an organic or natural and the other is whether it’s a behavioral trait that would be normal for in the situation so they just switch the thing because the point is is they just want to win the argument it doesn’t and the fun part is they don’t even care what argument you know it can keep transforming as much as possible as long as at the end you win that’s all you know but that’s that’s why Krishna says in logic I am Siddhanta which means conclusion right not not because otherwise Prabhupada mentions you can win the argument by Nigrahastham means the person says everything but you get you cut off all other ways to win and then you just crush it it doesn’t it means so they don’t know what to say not that you technically logically won just the argument stops you know so that’s why a lot of times someone says so you say something really outrageous and it just stops the conversation so you can say you won the argument but no Siddhanta was established so therefore Krishna is not there in that manifestation you know what I’m saying so that’s the whole point is that when it’s done in this form then Krishna is manifest because you’re taking a point you’re going through it in logical steps dealing with whatever is there that there are doubts is not the problem it’s that that someone wants actual to to know what is the conclusion so that as it’s presented it can be done and if you need to explain further things or side points that’s fine so it’s not that there’s a debate arises that’s the difficulty the difficulty is in that debate the only interest is in winning rather than establishing truth that’s the difficulty so there’s so many techniques that are there one is you know them because you know how to properly apply an argument the other is you also know how to catch those who are not applying the argument properly is that what you said you know it’s just like Vishwapanishad mentions you learn knowledge and ignorance side by side because if you don’t know them both someone could be applying ignorance you don’t understand that because you only know knowledge so you get bewildered so you have to know the tricks so then then you know what to say you know because otherwise if he says no but that’s not natural that’s made out of artificial ingredients so what is made out of artificial ingredients you know it works no but you know you’re destroying the environment it’s a completely different discussion when they say no but it’s not natural he says it’s just not organic and he says what has it got to do with organic we’re discussing natural in the way of behavior not what it’s made out of so then then that stops that direction of their argument they don’t have to say no but natural things are important and he says yeah but that’s a different discussion you know so then it brings it right back so if you know the techniques then it avoids the problem does that make sense so that’s why logic is logic being studied with philosophy is standard it’s called anvikshiki right you have logic nyaya and you have philosophy right mimamsa but when the two are combined that’s called anvikshiki does that make sense yeah more on this next year more more on on this more more generally the logic isn’t for the morons that’s that’s that’s the difficulty right yeah more on this next year yes yes yes because because because because in the six systems then then it comes up so at that point we’ll try to get into it so we understand it it means logic is is standard way of discussion but using it as a philosophy now that’s a bit weird right it means logic is there to support philosophy not that it is the philosophy you know that’s that’s where Gotama kind of missed the point his logic is good but that’s philosophy that’s the problem yes initially it was mentioned that the soul is the field in Brahman means no it means the field means here what we’re saying is the basis the basic field of creation spear is the basic field right but the detail will be the material energy itself also in Bhagavad Gita we’ll come across field of activity but that’s taking that’s directly taking now you’re going to interact with the field are you referring to the body no no no but the field includes all of it right includes the soul right means you have the place of action right you have the elements of action right you have the senses right so that’s all the material energy then you have the living entity and then you have the super soul so you have those five so the basis of this that there will be some variety of creation is is that is that the soul and the super soul are there right now what is the manifestation of that creation that’s material energy so you have the situation it’s in the elements within the situation right in other words the place then the the how you say the circumstance right and then the senses that will be used is that does that make sense yeah so it’s not that there’s a there’s a difference here it’s just trying to point out that it’s spirit that actually is the basis because without spirit there is there is no how you say creation right means that without God there’ll be no creation but without the desire of the living entity why would there need to be creation you know what I’m saying means we already have the spiritual world which is not created is already there right so why create you know a whole parallel you know state of existence it’s only because the living entities desire it you know what I’m saying means you know you have a house so why do you have to to make a little house out in the backyard you know because the kids want to play in it right otherwise why create it does that make sense I was thinking it was a dog it was a dog ok no that’s because you wanted a stinky dog in your house no he’s out in the back yeah all you mean is you were living in the dog house compared to the spiritual world ah ok so yeah a big dog yeah there’s the small dog and the big dog right he’s not means he’s the means in other words he has expanded so that there is Vishnu is himself is doing that you know what I’m saying but that there’s a particular manifestation within the mature world that’s because of the living entities does that make sense so in other words you have to know on what level the jiva is functioning and what level the lord is functioning because otherwise there’s always that point of trying to say that they’re equal right the mayavadis are always trying to say that they’re equal right because that was the point that we’re that this all this whole line of adhikaranas are running because there’s the two theses that life comes from matter or the living entity is equal to god right because that’s their conclusion if life comes from matter it’s all about matter right so just you know enjoy it while you can you know but the other one is that whatever you do you’re going to get to the point where you become god so you always have to establish that the living entity and god though some points are similar but the volume is very different so there’s always always the living entity will be small and never be equal to god the big and small meaning the jivas so he’s expanded as vishnu he’s expanded as the jivas but yeah the big soul here means vishnu okay the cause of the big you universe is the big soul or the super soul right so he’s saying here’s the super soul so he’s expanded like this and then the super soul even maha vishnu expands as garbhodaksha as kirodaksha right and then therefore spirit combined to manifest the gigantic universal form originally two energies of the lord right and consequently the lord is the original cause of anything so there’s your point right in one sentence right combined therefore spirit and matter okay yes i’m interested in nature beings and how they create because how nature creates yeah to remove the human beings for a while and just observe nature how it creates it seems to be quite perfect in a very harmonious way and as soon as human beings come in the picture but depends what kind of i mean if you remember before we were discussing six kinds of of living entities brahmins satyas vices shudras shankaras and you know antityas you know so when you have the modern enlightened antitya he always makes the problem right but if you have you know just kind of simple you know who would in other words those antityas that would be classified by the more sophisticated antityas as less sophisticated or as tribals you know then those ones generally have a tendency to classically work with nature do they act out of ignorance or out of no that means they’re in ignorance just that there’s an understanding they have because they they’re living in a simpler environment they understand that I’m not in control see that’s the advantage of the simpler living is that you understand I’m not in control when it’s hot out it’s hot when it’s cold it’s cold and I don’t make the hotter cold I mean I can make a fire I can go under a tree but that’s you know like that’s what I can do but even that the nature of fire I didn’t create and the nature of the tree I didn’t create you understand does that make sense and they see the cycle of you know of birth and death you know so I’m here I’m eating what’s here and then I’ll die and then I’ll turn into something that somebody else eats you know so they see these things but does this mean that they are in connection with with God consciously or not no no that means there’s a little bit but it’s very mild like that no you don’t put them into this thing that they’re the ones that are you know like that or the things like you know the babies up to the point they talk and they’re enlightened and they know everything as soon as they talk they forget everything you know all these kinds of things these are really nice for you know people that have gone to university and sit around and have nothing else to do they think of this kind of stuff and if they can write a book then they maintain their seat they get published they move up they don’t they kind of get pushed to the wayside so it’s not really this is not the point the point is someone’s conscious of God you know they’re God conscious they’re not they’re not so that means they are to some degree they may be more than your modern man living in a city he looks at it that you know he’s created it he’s in his air-conditioned house he walks into his air-conditioned garage gets into his air-conditioned car drives into the air-conditioned place for his car gets out and walks into his air-conditioned office so as far as he is concerned he’s in control of nature so he’s not God conscious though he’s sophisticated you can say this other is in a simpler way more God conscious but now if if you can make this modern person God conscious then there’s there’s there’s no difference you know what I’m saying being God conscious is not any any human being can do it does that make sense but that’s that’s that’s a later stage that’s a detail the point is is oh we’re working in harmony with the universe means what the universe is meant for you know what I’m saying does that make sense is that the universe is meant to be God conscious so are we being God conscious so whether we’re in a natural environment or not you can still be God conscious now if you had a preference then you know gradually as one becomes purified one works for the natural state but there are those who live in that natural state but they’re not actually very God conscious because the naturalness of the of the world is not the point of the world you know what I’m saying the naturalness of the world is so that we are able to through nature appreciate God right so if it comes down to that you know will be you know the devotee is thinking that you know unless everything is natural then it can’t be offered to Krishna or unless it’s baby and it can’t be all these different things these are their priorities are wrong they think that that their diet itself is somehow another on its own a symptom of God consciousness no it’s being conscious of God is God consciousness the other things follow not that they’re not important but one has to know the priority God’s first then you know working with you know then working you know what he feels is the most important is there and then because the creation that’s what goes on the animals do it so it’s it’s the natural environment but it’s not the most important element because if you look if we look at it nature in its you know pure state what’s going on what are all the animals doing right eating sleeping mating and defending that’s all they’re not doing one thing more or less right so now human life is meant to understand God so in other words eating sleeping mating defending should go on in a natural way but God consciousness is the principle and so one should never think that God consciousness is dependent upon the natural lifestyle you know because then we’re limiting we’re limiting you know if God consciousness the process of God consciousness or bhakti is not different from the Lord we’re limiting the Lord and it’s also according to our values you know does that make sense so it’s by modes it goes in a certain way and it always follows certain patterns you understand does that make sense the persons in nature you know you know in the western paradigm because it’s a certain mode then they won’t be into guns or violence right right they have to be and they’ll figure that’s better but now they’re talking about living the natural lifestyle so there’s a tribal he’s living a natural lifestyle does he have a problem with weaponry does the tribal have a problem with weapons not at all right but he’s living the natural lifestyle so he sees then it’s other modes so that’s why if you just work on the modes it’s inconsistent you know that would be the difficulty you know so so then yeah yeah does that make sense yeah it’s just a matter of understanding which is first and then which is yes you said that in the ancient to be creative comes from God and the living entities oh ok the creation so in the case of drama the little the little living entity wants to create for God like excuse excuse for returning returning back to God no it means that the living entities they want to live separately from God so someone has to create the facility so that’s what Lord Brahma does so he’s doing he’s doing it as an officer for the Lord his desire to create for the no see there’s two things there’s the activity who’s qualified for the activity just like this let us say the person who comes in and does your interior decorating ok now let us let us say you know he’s recognized in the field ok so is he qualified yes means he could come in you know look at your house look at you ask a few questions and tell you what you should have or give you the options and then you choose and then he’ll refine it down and he’ll get it done right does that make sense so but now as a person in his personal lifestyle is he qualified no you understand he might be maybe he might not be you understand it’s two different things so Brahma he has the piety to be able to be involved in the creation but it doesn’t mean he has that pure desire that he’s only doing it to please the lord does that make sense no no no it’s not he desires to be Brahma that’s that is the first position he’s given when he his desires to be separate from the lord and that provides him the opportunity to be Brahma that’s the first first every living entity material world comes in as Brahma generally speaking you know unless you’ve made more of a mess before that you come in as Brahma you know but at least if not Prajapatis are great sages but you know it’s not going to be anything less than that but Brahma is the standard standard first position does that make sense yes that’s a different thing that’s the result of previous activity it’s not he desired to be Brahma you know he desired to be separate from the lord so therefore he’s brought put into the material world does that make sense but you have no material experience as such so therefore that will make you very pious so then you and naturally are Lord Brahma does that make sense supporting quotation from scripture in Siddhanta this is confirmed in the Kathopanishad 2.2.13 nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam right so there’s two kinds of eternals right but one is the cause of the support of the other so that the big soul takes care of the little soul ok then what is the exact translation of this nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam um I’m not sure anybody knows the no no no the the the translations there is there is one eternal and many eternals yeah one eternal many eternals all the others the point here is above these two potencies is situated the almighty Godhead so now you introduce him then that’s 7.7 that’s also part of this same same same point O conqueror of wealth there is no truth superior to me everything rests upon me as pearls are strung on a thread right so now he’s saying how he is the Lord right because before it was all created beings have their source in these two natures of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world know for certain that I am both the origin and the solution right but then O conqueror of wealth there is no truth superior to me everything rests upon me as pearls are strung on a thread now it means the point of this example is that you have a necklace you just see the pearls no one sees the thread but if there’s no thread there is no necklace right so that’s the so how do you know that the absolute truth is a person there’s a common controversy over whether the supreme absolute truth is personal or impersonal as far as Bhagavad Gita is concerned the absolute truth is the personality of Godhead Sri Krsna and this is confirmed in every step in this verse in particular it is stressed that the absolute truth is a person that the personality of Godhead is the supreme absolute truth is also affirmed it is also the affirmation of the brahma-samhita that is the supreme absolute truth personality of Godhead is Lord Krsna who is the primeval Lord the reservoir of all pleasure Govinda and the eternal form of complete bliss and knowledge these authorities leave no doubt that the absolute truth is the supreme person the cause of all causes okay so now we’ve established him as a person because you’re trying to we’ve established before the jiva as an individual right and then the matter as you know both as unconscious or dead matter and as brahman okay then lesson 13 lesson 13 now we’re going into okay this is a okay part of the conclusion as omnipotent Godhead is manifested as all-pervading impersonal supreme truth in one manner described O son of Kunti I am the taste of water the light of the sun and the moon the syllable om and the Vedic mantras I am the sound and ether and ability in man how is the Lord realized impersonally and what is Lord Caitanya’s doctrine how does it resolve the conflict between impersonal and impersonal the supreme Lord can be preliminary perceived by his different energies and in this way he is realized impersonally as the demigod in the sun is a person and is perceived by his all -pervading energy the sunshine so the Lord although in his eternal abode is perceived by his all-pervading diffusive diffusive energies the taste of water is the active principle of water no one likes to drink sea water because the pure taste of water is mixed with salt attraction for water depends on the purity of the taste and this pure taste is one of the energies of the Lord the impersonalist perceives the presence of the Lord in water by his taste the personalist also glorifies the Lord for his kindly supplying tasty water to quench man’s thirst we catch that there that’s where the one turns into the other is that anything that you value because Krishna says he’s everything so that means whatever is there is him he’s pervading everything but you’re only going to perceive this everything to be your own values right so what you value is where you look right so now you value the taste of water right so water is important but why because of the taste right because otherwise it was just water was the principle why are there ten different kinds of water on the market and what’s the difference between them right generally the taste that’s the thing they may have so many things written on the outside but it’s the taste that matters right so the the that’s the first place you can see is well that taste that you’ve had that’s Krishna right so then you can start this perceive where is God because they’re going from personal that he’s everywhere into he’s everywhere but then specific you know localized right in other words going from the Brahman to Paramatma right but it’s all the Brahman platform right does that make sense because the universal form is also Paramatma right Paramatma is the universal form so here then he can be seen in everything by these right so then he’s the taste of water the light of the sun and the moon so it means if the sun and the moon didn’t have any light would they be important right no nobody would care because they give light that’s why they’re important right the syllable OM in the Vedic mantras can you chant the mantras without OM no so OM is the principle that’s the beach it gives that life that connection so that’s Krsna sound and ether right ether is there it’s space but what do we find important in space sound right if you go into this big place right what’s one of the first things that somebody does yeah they make some noise they shout they do something to you know experience how that space the sound moves through the space right like that an ability in man you know someone can do something that that ability is Krsna you know so whatever it is but the ability is still Krsna so now so that’s the first stage so one can find the Lord in everything right so in other words it’s something that you’re not seeing the Lord connected with that’s the first stage then the next stage is that by His grace He’s able He’s giving such tasty water or giving that ability or making it that you know ether will carry sound otherwise how do you if you’re supposed to associate with sadhus and you know and if there was no ether or sound didn’t move through ether it would be really difficult right you know right does that make sense here it says the taste of water insulation but the point but what’s the principle thing that you bring let us say it’s life-sustaining right so now you’re very thirsty you drink water are you thinking wow this is so life -sustaining and you just go this tastes very nice yeah but that’s that’s second if it didn’t taste good you know would you drink it no no so that’s but the taste is your primary thing it’s not that all these other things aren’t there because it means okay let us take like the moon so is it only the light of the moon that’s important or that it can generate that romantic kind of element or that poetic element well the light of the moon actually has the potency to make the plants grow so it’s not I mean yeah but but it’s also but it’s also more to it than just the concept of health you know what I’m saying or in vegetables you know I’m saying in other words both of these the common point between them is the is the nourishment coming from of life right so but that’s one particular perspective so to say that there’s more to the one than this it’s not that you can correct this than the other because the point is is what what if there’s no water can you taste anything no according to the tree of life then the point is is why is the tongue wet without water you can’t taste so the point is is from water comes taste in the creation just like from fire comes sight from air comes sound I mean from ether comes sound you know what I’m saying so so you have all these things these are right but in that there’s unlimited things you could take from that just like let’s say you mentioned those but generally there’s one principle that very generally the western culture on the side knows it’s there but absolutely doesn’t care about is that water is one of its principle elements is purity right you know and devotees will fight like cats and dogs about that you know why do we have to all this fanatic stuff have to wash our feet after going in the bathroom I wore my magic hat right you know what I’m saying you can have hour long discussions about that or why we have to use water I mean you know God gave toilet paper you know so isn’t that enough why why are we satisfied why do we have to have more why are we always demanding more why can’t we just be satisfied with it simple things of life you know you know we’re not talking about you know that you know Russian sandpaper we’re talking about a good American you know four ply toilet paper you know you know we’re sensitive yeah you know does that make sense you know what I’m saying so therefore what I’m saying here is you can’t look at it means that is your value but the principle is the same that’s your value so you’re going to look at everything from that vantage point of that value but that’s how you’re going to find Krishna in it does that make sense there’s nothing lost in translation the point is make sense there’s nothing lost in translation the point is that you’re going to catch the first one and you get the rest of them because it’s a principle in other words taste is why one drinks water you know a particular water you just like if I have ten kinds of mineral water you know I mean you have the Perrier from France and you have this one from you know that you know I didn’t say no old mountain in Australia and you have this thing yeah all these different ones which one are you going to choose yeah the one that you like the taste right so it’s the It’s not that all these other considerations aren’t there, but the point is the taste is the primary, so that’s why that one example is given, because that’s universal. Now you could give so many more, because Krishna only says, he’s only given some. You know what I’m saying? Like that. But it’s like, this brick is here, it’s red. Why? So that redness is Krishna. That hardness is Krishna. That particular shape is Krishna.
In other words, brickness is Krishna.
You understand? You can just keep going with it. Does that make sense? Like that. So the essential point is given, but the idea is you take the principle and you apply it to everything in your life that you don’t automatically see as Krishna consciousness.
You know what I’m saying? Like in this case, then you look at something and then you’re going to see the health or the nutritive value of it. But that’s still not Krishna conscious. It may be more pious than somebody who’s not looking at that. You know what I’m saying? It may be closer to the actual purpose of eating and drinking. Right? But it’s still not God conscious. It’s just a more developed piety.
You know what I’m saying? So the point is then from that, if you don’t see Krishna in it, then you can find Krishna in it by taking that value. And it’s Krishna that’s that nutritive element.
So that’s why it’s important. Not because it’s got this vitamin in it, because that potency of that vitamin is Krishna.
That’s the reason. So therefore Krishna is so kind. Then you go from the impersonal to the personal. Therefore Krishna is so kind that he’s given, come as this nice taste or this power of these vitamins or these minerals. Does that make sense? Or the fiber in the vegetables. Krishna is so kind. He’s the fiber of vegetables. It’s really hard to see how Krishna’s in this taste and this taste is life sustaining. Yeah, yeah, but you’re going from the one to the next. But it’s also, the point is, if you take it from Ayurveda, why do you need water in the body? Right? Because it goes through and it cleans the body. So it’s actually cleansing. So the reason it is nutritious to the body is that it cleans the body. Because whether it has any minerals in it or not, if you drink a bunch of water, it will clear out the body. If it has minerals, then it’ll add that rather than lose that. You know what I’m saying? So the point is, you understand what I’m saying? In other words, we’re taking it from a particular vantage point. So to think that, well it’s not just taste, it’s also this. But that also this is still in the same principle that is your value. Because there’s so many more things it also does. You know what I’m saying? Let us say, because water is rasa. Now if you haven’t drunk water and you’re really, really dehydrated, can you interact with other people? No. So that means rasa can’t go on. You drink water, then rasa can happen. So there’s so many other things that are there. You know? Does that make sense? You know, someone else will look at it, if I drink enough water, then my bowel movement will be regular. You know what I’m saying? Which is also, you know, one of the, you know, he gets up, presses his teeth, drinks his water, like this kind of thing. You know what I’m saying? So it’s like this, you can take so many points. So what we’re saying is, that’s one point that you can take from, and then anything else you want to add to that, it doesn’t matter. Does that make sense? So if you see the taste and the nutritive value, then that’s fine. Or the taste and the, you know, other elements that are there, then that’s fine. You know? And even if one doesn’t notice the taste, you know, but whatever it is, that value is where you find Krishna, because it can only be, dead matter can’t be value. It’s that Krishna’s potency within it, that’s what’s valued.
Does that make sense?
Yes, yes. Yeah. Onto it. Yeah, that it’s shortcoming. But then, like I said, there could be so many others. So the point is, if Krishna gets into all that, we may kind of, like, lose it, because for somebody, water and its taste isn’t a prominent thing. They’d rather talk about, you know, like, you’re talking about water, they’re going to talk about, you know, the surf or something, you know, like that, or, you know, the calmness of the lake, or, you know, you know, something else. So, so, therefore, he gives one thing that’s universally appreciated, like the lightest sun and moon, everybody is going to say that they appreciate that, you know, like that, except for, you know, the party animal, you know, when the sun comes out, that kind of, like, blows the party, you know, like that, you know, like that. Does that make sense, you know, or the… Yeah, I understand, actually, so I was actually adding my value Yes. to sticking with the principle. Yeah, because the point is that, yes, because it’s the principle. Now, it’s not that you, but the point is, is what Krishna’s expecting is that you’ll apply this principle to your value.
You know what I’m saying? In other words, that value of nutrition, then that value is still the potency of nutrition is Krishna. And so, therefore, Krishna’s very kind that he’s giving this. Doesn’t that make sense? So, that means this method is open to everyone. Anybody can apply it. So that’s what’s so perfect about it. And everyone can appreciate the impersonal because that’s where they’re working. Because technically, if you’re seeing something without its connection to Krishna, it’s impersonal.
You know what I’m saying? Like that. That’s the whole, that’s the whole idea. Because personal means it’s interactive. But here it’s that we’re not seeing it in relationship to God. So, therefore, it’s actually just the impersonal element. Now, whether we’re conscious of that impersonal element or not. So, if we’re not, that’s illusion. If we are, then that’s the first step in God realization. You know, the first step is to be able to see God in, from the impersonal perspective we’re already looking with. Then the next is then to take it to the person. Does that make sense? So it’s a very, so we may say, but no, we’re devotees, we see Krishna. But the thing is, is yes, those things that we do see like that, there’s no need for it. You know what I’m saying? But in those areas that we don’t, you know, it’s just like we walk into the house. Why is that particular furniture has been chosen? Right? It will just go back again to a value. Right? It was cheap, you know, or, you know, a friend gave it to me, so it has sentimental value, or it’s practical, or it looks good, or it’s not practical, it may not look good, but it’s socially acceptable, as you know, this is the end thing to have. You know, whatever it may be, those are all values. So the point is, but Krishna is the practicality. Krishna is the aesthetic value or the social value. Krishna is all those aspects. So therefore, then we can take it from there and then see in connection to Krishna.
You know what I’m saying? Because much of our life we’re not seeing connected to Krishna. Right? It means our rounds, you know, at least, you know, in principle we do, whether we’re attentive when we chant or not, but in principle, if you ask, you know, what is this you’re chanting? You know, it’s just God’s name. We’re not going to say, well, it’s just something. I got to talk, I have to talk like this. So it’s just, you know, it’s like if I sit and talk to myself, people criticize me crazy, but if I say I’m chanting some mantras, then it’s okay. So, you know, these guys chant this mantra all day, so I thought I’d do that. You know what I’m saying?
You know, so devotees in principle would say, you know, the deity is Krishna, you know, the service is Krishna and all these different things, but the difficulty is is they don’t necessarily understand how that’s working. And so even in things they’ll see and connected to Krishna, then it’s just like you’re saying, you know, a common mistake is we’re managing, and so it’s the management that’s important. Rather than the mood. Right? Or the collection of funds, rather than the mood. So we’re managing, so I can do whatever it takes to get the management done, because the management’s the devotional service. So I may not follow etiquette, I may not, other things, because, you know, the means justifies the end, you know, or the end justifies the means, or, you know, all these kind of, these things. So, but if we understand, no, it’s the attitude that’s the devotion and the management is simply being applied, you know, because that’s the medium for our conditioning to be connected to Krishna. Does that make sense? You know, it’s just like, let’s say we prepare a very nice nutritious meal and then offer that to Krishna. We’re very happy that it’s a very nice quality to offer to Krishna. But it’s not that it’s nutritious why it’s devotional service. It’s because the attitude to please Krishna. And we value nutrition, so therefore we will cook something what we’ll value in connection to Krishna. What we have to understand is ultimately it’s the nutrition that’s Krishna, you know, and so it’s just used as a medium to serve Krishna. It doesn’t stand on its own as important, just as, you know, the fine quality, yes, that, you know, it was a, you know, full-color, you know, 70mm dream, you know, like that, like that, like, you know, I can remember having one of those once. We were in Bangkok, somehow or another. For dinner, they gave us chapatis and karela sabji. I’m not sure why. And because then afterwards sadhus, you know, drink milk, so then we, you know, had a glass of milk. Like that, that was like full technicolor dreams. I don’t know. Some had the combination of the milk with the karela. It was like something really wild. So, like that. Otherwise, it’s normally more pastel-y kind of, you know. But this was like full, you know, Disney color, you know, like that. So, it’s not that therefore that was a good dream, you know. It’s still, material life is still a dream. So, all these other things is, nutrition is only of a value if life is being used for God. If it’s not, then somebody lives very long, very healthy, you know what I’m saying. You know, so what, you know. Yeah, yeah. I think there was a guy, either, you know, somewhere on the, you know, southern borders of America, a migrant worker.
And one day he was, you know, sitting and picking fruit, you know, as the migrant workers do. And he, I guess, happened to be enjoying a cigarette at the time.
And lost his balance, fell out of the tree. So then he got, you know, a standard procedure, got taken to the hospital. And so, when he got to the hospital, then they, you know, use all kinds of, you know, forms you have to deal with and everything like that. They found out the guy was 120 years old. Right? Because he wasn’t necessarily registered or in the system. Right? Like that. And so, you know what I’m saying? So, he must have been doing something right to be 120 years old. But he’s not God conscious, so he’s lived 120 years of what? Right? You know, picking fruit and smoking cigarettes. You know? Does that make sense? So, that’s why the ideas of whatever our value is, it still only is a value if it’s connected to Krishna. Otherwise, it’s our value and our conditioning. And it identifies us within the conditioned state. But it doesn’t have any value until it becomes real value, until it’s connected to Krishna. But, because real value is based on what is value. You know what I’m saying? Like you have money, it’s only real money when it’s connected to Krishna. Right? Then it’s Lakshmi. Right? Does that make sense? But, the point is, all money is technically Lakshmi. It’s just a matter of whether you understand it or not. The potency, the economic potency, you know, of these, you know, of whatever is defined as, as, you know, how do you say it?
I can’t remember. But, you know, something that you use for exchange.
Collateral? Yeah, collateral, fair tent, I think it’s fair tent. I can’t remember what that is.
Yeah, collateral. Is that, it is, that potency is Krishna.
Right? Because otherwise, it’s like, why does the same piece of paper with the same amount of ink and the same amount of artistic value, one of them is only worth, you know, one dollar and one of them is worth a hundred. You know what I’m saying? And then they have ones that are worth ten thousand and stuff. We don’t see them, of course, but they have them. You know, it’s still, it’s the same piece of paper. You know what I’m saying? You know. It means, you know, it means still you could only light one cigar with it. You know what I’m saying? It won’t have any more value. You know what I’m saying? So, it’s simply we define that.
But that potency that it, that it, we attribute to it, that potency is still Krishna. Right? So in other words, where we have values, then that’s actually Krishna. Now whether we recognize it or not, that’s, that’s, that’s the, the point of becoming Krishna conscious or not. Does that, does that make sense? So that’s why we start with our values. Because just to say, everything’s God, nice, but then, what are you going to do? Right? You know, because it’s not uncommon, the guy, it’s all one, and everything’s all one, and like that, excuse me, I’ll take a, you know, double, double cheeseburger and, you know, fried fries like that. Yeah, so then, you know, we were saying about, you know, it’s all one, you got to be able to feel it, you know, you know what I’m saying? It’s like, where does it, where does it hit the ground? So it hits the ground at your values. Talk is nice, but it’s our values, that’s where the dynamic comes in. So whatever our values are, that’s, you know, the, the first place to look to connect our, you, our body, mind, and words to Krishna. Does that make sense? It means it’s not being connected. Does that make sense? The direct ones are already, we’re chanting, the kirtan, doing those things, but outside of that, you simply have to look at, well, what do I value in life? And then take that and connect, and, and what do we, does that make sense?
Yes. I was just, I just, on that point, you said about the, the living entities being in, in the pure world for a very long time, I’m feeling, You want to know how long that was? Feeling that, I don’t mean to be nice, but, but, Real long. Feeling with impersonal energy, like Ved Matar, has become like that, so that whenever one, Yes, means you’ve come, in other words, the first step is becoming God conscious. Now, if you can go from matter to God as a person, that’s best, because that’s how we start talking. So if someone is able to surrender and apply that at that time, work is done. But if not, then what’s distracting? Why is it someone’s not fully surrendering? There’s a distraction, right, in their life, you know, money, their sense gratification, their position in society, you know, particular, you know, some passion that they have. So these values, why is that of importance?
It’s only important because Krishna is that potency. So if they see that, then that’s the first step in that area of God realization, right, is that they’re going to see that connected. Now it’s, now it’s, you’re dealing with Brahman, but you’re not dealing with illusion. It means the matter itself is always Brahman, right? It’s always been Krishna, but we’re not seeing it that way. Now we’re seeing it that way. So now we’re God conscious. But the point is, the next step is Brahman is based on Krishna, right? Just like Brahman is coming from Krishna, so is Paramatma, right? So that means, you know, the big soul and the all-pervading soul, that is based on the person.
You know what I’m saying? So like that, you can go through these stages. So it’s important, we can say, well, it’s not important we just chant Hare Krishna. It says, well, if we just chanted Hare Krishna, it would be fine. If we like Haridas Thakur, there’s no need to discuss this. But I’m sure if you check, Haridas Thakur wouldn’t mind discussing it because as he traveled around, you know, how many other people were doing what he did, right? We hear one other person, you know, I mean, in that particular form, right? Others are always absorbed in Krishna and always, so the eternal associates in that, then they’re also, but they’re not necessarily doing it on beads. They’re doing it by other various services. What the point is, is it’s the Lord’s eternal associates and those who are serious about associating with those associates, that you can count in that category. And everybody else, it’ll be when they’re more conscious and then they’ll remember to chant and do things. And when they’re not, they’ll forget.
You know what I’m saying? Does that make sense? So that’s the whole idea, is that all these things you can use to catch what is that has slipped by that you didn’t notice. In other words, we’re not conscious of it, so that’s why we didn’t make it Krishna conscious.
You know what I’m saying? But as soon as we’re conscious of it, you know, does that make sense? We could say, no, no, but the person was conscious of it. He wasn’t exactly, he could say conscious, but it’s not conscious what we’re talking about because his consciousness is being driven by the modes of nature, right? So he’s only conscious of the thing as much. Otherwise, the animal is also conscious.
But, you know, the element of God consciousness is not coming out. You know what I’m saying? So now you’re taking it from just being conscious as an animal to being conscious, you know, in God consciousness.
And then from there you go to the person.
Does that make sense?
Yes. When we do the direct activities like chanting, then we slip out and we are not conscious of what we are doing. So that time we come into the modes?
Yeah, I mean, you come into the modes, that means the consciousness may be there, but you’re still associating with Krishna. So there’s still benefit. Otherwise, how is it that the neophyte devotee is advancing? Because it’s not necessarily that they’re completely focused on their chanting.
You know what I’m saying? So it’s by being in association with Krishna, you know, where one acknowledges that. One may not be always appreciating it, but one is still in that environment.
You know? Does that make sense? Yeah. But the indirect activities, that you have to be conscious to be able to get benefit. You’re in your house, you know, and you’re in your bathroom, and you’ve got whatever it is you’re doing, you’ve got your favorite, you know, this or that, or doing this, or, you know, you’ve got your important, you know, this soap from here, and that’s from there, and all these things that you’ve got with great trouble from all over the world, which is a match, whatever is that theme that you have. But the point is, is that all of that, where is the God-consciousness?
So if one is aware of that, then you can catch and then figure, okay, well, what is it? Why did I, what is the consistent pattern between all these things? You know what I’m saying? You know, is it because it’s, this is what the stars use, so that’s why I got it, or this is what, you know, something else, or it’ll keep me from getting old, or it’ll make me, you know, this or that, or you know what I’m saying? You know. So whatever is that common thing, so then what, that’s the value, so then that’s with Krishna. So Krishna is that element. He’s that potency. So it’s not actually the dead matter that’s doing it, because I’m thinking, oh, this, this, you know, this beauty cream is making the skin soft. No, it’s Krishna as the potency of softening that’s in that that’s making the skin soft.
You understand what I’m saying?
So by seeing like that, then one can move through these things, and then it breaks that illusion, that glitter.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah. So it seems to me that this is a vehicle, this attitude is a vehicle to feel more grateful, and to not fall into illusion to think that this is mine to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To surrender to that. Yeah, yeah. Anything. Gratefulness, you know, just gratefulness, or appreciation that, you know, whatever it is, it’s God understanding the difference between matter and spirit. In other words, as we saw the previous ones, is that the spirit is the basis. Then the matter is simply the manifestation. So, in other words, the spirit is the basis. The reason that the nutrition is there, means, in other words, nutrition is the spirit. Then it manifests through this vitamin, or this mineral, or this fiber, or this, you know, whatever it is that you’re looking for. So it puts the priority in the right place. Yeah, it puts it in the right place. So then, one starts to see from the perspective of spirit, instead of from the perspective of matter. Because right now, we’ll look from the perspective of matter.
This rock, you know, looks nice, but it’s actually Krishna’s potency that makes the rocks look nice. So it’s actually Krishna that’s looking nice. Because for beauty it’s Krishna. Yeah. So therefore, now, the rocks look nice, but Krishna as a person looks even nicer. So therefore, if I can make a nice garden for the person, then that would be the best thing. Rather than I make the nice garden because I like gardens. But I’m able to appreciate that the reason the garden’s nice is because Krishna is so kind that he comes in the form of these. Like that. But it’s now, you know, that will be the next stage, is make the garden for Krishna’s pleasure.
Does that make sense? So nothing’s ever lost. All that’s lost is who’s the controller and who’s the destroyer, right? So for us, that’s a big thing.
Yes?
Maharaj, when one understands and you’ve also come to know what Krishna likes, as opposed to what you really value in terms of Krishna gardens, is the idea to eventually…
Yes. But it doesn’t mean that the medium itself is lost. You know what I’m saying?
It simply becomes… It’s secondary. Because otherwise, let’s say, the art, it’s the passion, it’s the life. Without painting, you don’t feel good. But the point is, it’s still Krishna who’s the power. Krishna is whatever it is from the painting that you appreciate.
So then you start to be God conscious about it. Then it’s by Krishna’s grace that he is there and then I feel so good when I’m painting. And then why not paint for Krishna? So the painting is not lost, but the difference that I’m painting because it makes me feel good and I’m painting to please Krishna. So the medium stays, but the mentality completely changes. So that’s where you’re saying God consciousness. That’s the whole point. The environment doesn’t have to change. Right? If we’re painting for Krishna, we might paint different scenes than if we’re not painting for Krishna. Does that make sense? But the painting principle, that’s why it’s important to understand what the actual value is. You know what I’m saying? Because otherwise, then we’ll think it’s a particular thing. Because if it’s just aesthetics, it’s not even painting, it’s just painting is one way of… Then it could be anything else that aesthetics. I could arrange flowers for the deities or I could put up nice curtains or I could arrange the room so everything is in nice, balanced harmony. I could find… So if I know that, then I could find even more outlets or what is useful. Okay, there’s no opportunity to paint, but I can make nice arrangements.
You know what I’m saying? So that’s why it’s important to understand what the value is. Because that’s part of self-realization. You know what body you’re dealing with, what senses, what mind, what intelligence, what is it? Then you know how to engage it.
And it’s not a matter of artificial, you have to sit down and say… No, it’s just you think about it. As it comes up, then you start to notice it. But unless one’s aware, it won’t be noticed.
You had something?
Yes.
It means it can be at any level. It means, in other words, he sees the Ishta-Deva in everything, meaning that either by… Krishna is this potency, or by Krishna’s grace, then he has arranged it as a value, or it makes him think of Krishna, you know, and it goes off into the pastimes. It’s just a matter of… Yeah.
So any of those.
The impersonalist perceives the presence of the Lord in water by its taste, and the personalist also glorifies the Lord for His kindly supplying tasty water to quench man’s thirst. That is the way of perceiving the Supreme. Practically speaking, there is no conflict between personalism and impersonalism. We don’t have a problem because Krishna is Brahman, you know. But the point is, is if we say it’s exclusive monism, that there’s only Brahman, that’s where we have a problem.
You know what I’m saying? Because Mother just showed us these Krishna shoes. Krishna’s not the shoes, but it’s His shoes. She reminds Her of Krishna. You’re actually taking the impersonal aspect. You know what I’m saying? But because in this case, being situated on the platform of love of God, then you’re dealing with Bhagavan. So you don’t have to go through the stages in the mind. You don’t have to say, OK, I have this attire, then I have this, and then like that. It’s just automatic. So there’s no difference between the person in their… as the person in the localized feature or in their all-pervading feature.
You know what I’m saying?
Does that make sense? So Krishna, you know, the house, everything about it is all arranged to be nice for Krishna. So the whole thing, but it’s just all -pervading, or specifically this item.
But in any case, it always reminds them of the person. It always leads back to the past times. So on that platform, they don’t have to make any distinction between the three. But we do for the point of self -realization. But the priority is the person. The localized and the all-pervading is secondary.
OK.
One who knows God knows that the impersonal concept and personal conception are simultaneously present in everything and that there is no contradiction. Therefore, Lord Caitanya established this sublime doctrine, acintya -bheda-bheda-tattva.
Acintya-bheda and abheda-tattva.
Simultaneously, oneness and difference. I guess we’re taking from oneness and difference, bheda and abheda.
Acintya-bheda and abheda-tattva.
I mean, you could say acintya-bheda. Maybe either if it’s original, then it’s point to point out that the two are there. Otherwise, we may not catch it. And if not, then whoever did the English, then somehow another… Yeah, connected the two.
So, the point is we don’t have any difficulty with it. Because the point is that Brahman is at first stage.
Only because we’re impersonal in that we just see matter.
That’s impersonal. Right? Even we see the person, you know, another person that still technically is impersonal because we don’t see the soul. We just see the body. So, it’s not actually the… Like if I just started talking to your chudder or something like that. Is there something wrong here? I have something on my chudder. Like that, you know. Like that. So, it’s actually impersonal. So, the living entities in the material world are technically all impersonalists. Though within those, some identify as karmis and some as jnanis.
So, it’s just, you know, all these different… It’s always fun to take something that we think and then it just turns it on its head, right? Yeah.
So, the two go together very well. And as one deals in that, it just more and more quickly just goes from, you know, the thing to the progression up to the person to where it’s just simultaneous.
Because if there’s a non-difference, that means seeing any, you know, seeing anything of the subordinate nature will automatically make you think of Krishna because it’s Krishna.
Right?
Oṁ Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
