Bhagavad-gītā Seriatim #85

Bhagavad-gītā Seriatim #85

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The next three verses explain what will be the result of following and not following Kṛṣṇa’s instructions.

If Arjuna becomes conscious of Kṛṣṇa, then he will pass over all obstacles of conditioned life by Kṛṣṇa’s grace. If, however, he does not work in such consciousness but acts through false ego, not hearing Kṛṣṇa, he will be lost. If he did not fight, then he would be falsely directed by his nature and would have to be engaged in warfare anyway. Under illusion, Arjuna was declining to act according to Kṛṣṇa’s direction, but compelled by the work of his own nature, he would act all the same. So conditioned life means that one’s in illusion of what’s going on. One doesn’t see things as they are. One doesn’t see Kṛṣṇa, how He has entered everything, how He’s part of everything.

So, not seeing that, that’s conditioned life. You see that, you’re not conditioned. So if he sees, he’s not conditioned. So all the problems that come with conditioned life, all the anxieties and miseries and happiness and strength, all this is not there.

But if he doesn’t see according to this, then it is there. And because then he’s not acting on his transcendental nature, by engaging his situation in the world in Kṛṣṇa’s service, then he will act according to that conditioned nature exclusively.

People will say, we are independent, we can do what we like, but that’s just another form of illusion. It’s just another aspect of false ego. It’s not reality. Because we think it happens, but that only happens with God. He’s satya-saṅkalpa. What he thinks, that’s what happens. So, trying to be God, we think, whatever my mind wants, that’s what will happen. And unfortunately, because of conditioned nature, it doesn’t necessarily. You have the karma, it might. You don’t have the karma, it won’t. So, these are the choices. Prabhupāda says, the living entity has two choices, Kṛṣṇa or māyā. If you choose Kṛṣṇa, then it’s set what you do. You follow the internal potency. But that’s voluntary. Or, if you choose māyā, then you’ll be forced to act under the modes of nature. So it’s not that there’s another option. When Kṛṣṇa says it’s this or that, He means it’s this or that. There’s not a third option. He makes the rules. It’s His game. It’s His ball.

So, if one doesn’t act in consciousness of Kṛṣṇa, it’s acting on the false ego. Because there’s a false identity. Something to do with the material body and that extension of the situation of sin. They may be very pious, may be very nice, may be very wonderful, but still it’s false. It’s not that it doesn’t exist, but you’re not that. This rock exists, but it doesn’t mean I’m the rock just because it exists. I exist, the rock exists, so I’m the rock. That’s the logic. Does that make sense? It might make a good song, but it’s not going to actually function.

Does this make sense?

Śrīla Baladeva Dvībhūṣaṇa comments, Arjuna says, Even though fighting is my dharma, I do not have the inclination because I fear the sin caused by killing brāhmaṇas and gurus. So, he has what he’s supposed to do, doesn’t want to do it because he’s afraid of the reactions.

So, Kṛṣṇa says, If you take shelter of false identity, thinking you know what is right and wrong, and contemplate, I will not fight, such resolve will definitely not bring result.

Prakṛti, transformed as the mode of passion, will engage you, who have ignored my words, in fighting anyway, which will cause killing of gurus and brāhmaṇas. Being bound by your actions as a kṣatriya, which arise from your impressions, you will fight anyway, even against your will.

So, he’s saying he wants to avoid this. It sounds good. You know, that’s the point, is that, why are we in the material world? Because it sounds good. Why do we do what we do in the material world? Because it sounds good. We think it will work. It’s not something else.

So, here it sounds like it’s something very nice. We have to be very careful of that, because the modern mentality is, if it sounds good and it seems like it’s a good thing, then it’s authorized. But no, it’s a matter of, is it your duty or not? So, it says, false identity. False identity means, I know what is right and wrong. As opposed to, guru-sādhu and śāstra says, what’s right and wrong. I follow that. As a servant of authority, I follow that. But if I think, no, I’m my own authority, that’s false ego. Because it appears one could say, Oh, but he’s not working on the false ego, I’m a kṣatriya and so therefore I’m working in this mentality. And so, I’m giving up that false mentality to save gurus and brāhmaṇas. But it’s false ego that he thinks it’s his choice to make. Right? So, here now, as we were starting before, it sounds quite philosophical. Right? Now we’re bringing it closer to what’s my independence? What’s my free will? What’s actually me? What’s actually me as the soul? Anything else is not.

So, here the element is, if he thinks I will go against my duties, because the point is, you’re supposed to please Kṛṣṇa. And then, what do you please Kṛṣṇa with? The performance of your duties. He wants to perform his duties for his own satisfaction. He doesn’t like the outcome. He doesn’t want to do his duties. That’s false ego. Now, if he wants to do his duties, but he likes his duties, he’s attached to them or identifies with them, but wants the result for Kṛṣṇa, then that’s karma yoga. So, that’s still bona fide, because it’s connected to Kṛṣṇa. He’s contemplating Kṛṣṇa. Along with his other desires. But what we’ve discussed in this chapter is, having surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, then you, how you say, perform your duties to please Him. That’s the difference between pure devotional service and karma yoga. You start with, I do the work, get the result, give it to Kṛṣṇa, or I give the result to Kṛṣṇa, then do the work.

So, one will act according to one’s nature anyway. So, it doesn’t really matter. People can say whatever they like. People will act the way they’re going to act anyway. So, it’s nice. People feel good about it, that they’ve discussed my independence and how my free will and how I’ll do whatever I want and all kinds of nice platitudes. And then they’ll just do what they were going to do anyway, according to the modes of nature. That’s all. But, at least they felt good about it. You know, it’s like, how you say, the guy’s going to die anyway, so he says some comment about something in support of the revolution or in support of his country or something like that. And then they shoot him. Then he feels better. So, that’s basically what goes on. Does that make sense? Just that we’ve said yes, you know, like this due to our false ego. Then we feel a little better about being forced to do whatever we’re going to do.

Therefore, one should not think that by rejecting the Lord’s order, he becomes independent. One will remain controlled. The only difference will be that one will be under the control of the material energy. That’s all. So, since it’s free will, your choice, why not choose the Lord?

That’s the point. Because it’s very obvious what you get from one, what you get from the other. So, that’s all. Rejecting that, Arjuna is still unable to give up his false concept of being the doer and the knower. In verses 61 to 62, but here the knower means not the knower of the soul. It means here the knower means he is the knower of the field, but as the one attached to controlling and enjoying the field.

So, here when we say the field and the knower, then that means there’s a difference. If the knower thinks they’re the field, that’s not the field and the knower. That’s just the field.

You understand?

In verses 61 to 62, the Lord imparts even more confidential knowledge.

The Supreme Lord is in everyone’s heart and is directing the wanderings of all living entities who are seated as on a machine made of material energy. Krsna advises Arjuna to surrender unto Him, because by His grace one will attain transcendental peace and the supreme eternal abode.

Krsna mentioned before is that how the process works is that you make the endeavor, the sincere endeavor, Krsna being pleased with that sincere endeavor by His grace, one becomes transcendental.

Krsna declared this knowledge as most confidential. He told Arjuna to deliberate fully and then do what he wished. Why would this be more confidential than before? Because He’s already said most confidential, there’s confidential knowledge in the seventh chapter like this, and then it gets more confidential than most confidential knowledge in the twelve. Then it keeps getting more and more confidential.

Right? So, you know, how many more confidentials are there? Right? So, the point is here is because He’s saying it’s surrendering to Him as a person. Because He’s saying the Paramatma, the Supersoul, is directing the wanderings of all living entities.

So He’s not saying, I’m directing. He’s saying Supersoul’s directing.

Right? Who is Him? But the point is is there He’s just interacting on a very small scale with the living entities and their material desires. And so therefore the results of that and what needs to be arranged in the material platform to accomplish that. So for God that’s not very impressive, not very special. Right? So what’s special is the interaction with the devotees based on devotion. So that’s the most confidential element. Right? You have material energy and then you have how it works on the platform as actually working because it’s Brahman. That’s confidential knowledge. Because then one can see the difference between the soul and the body. Right? Then more confidential is to be able to see the difference between the soul and the Supersoul. Right? Then more confidential is act out of devotion for the Lord.

Right? And so then there’s more confidential meaning within how to see, separate the soul and the body. Then you get all those chapters, the last chapters. They’re telling you how to see the material energy, the modes of nature, how they’re functioning. Right? But all this is controlled by the Supersoul. But the most confidential then, the final point is that Krishna as a person, Bhagavan, who is interacting with His devotees out of loving devotion, that platform being the consideration why you’ll do something or not do something, that’s the most confidential. Right? Not that Lord’s in the heart so He sees. No, that’s not the point. It’s not that Krishna sees or not because He sees, therefore I don’t do it. If I don’t remember, I don’t think He sees, so therefore I do it. That’s not actually the point. It’s because of devotion you consider Krishna’s feelings, Krishna’s opinion. Right? What would make Him happy? That’s the most confidential. So this is what He’s being brought to. But to do that, then all this means one can do that directly. That’s the best. But if not, all the technical knowledge that’s been given in the chapters before, that will help one be more conscious of Krishna, that through the Brahman and Paramatma understandings and understanding of the material world, then one can come to the point of surrendering to Krishna as a person. Yes? If someone surrenders directly to Krishna as a person, would that surrender be more, can you say, fragile than if you take the whole process? Would it be more fragile? Depends upon the commitment to that. So it’s like the gopis, they surrender in that way. So it’s very solid. It’s just a matter of once the mind accepts something, that’s generally solid. If it’s connected to Krishna, then that’s there. If it’s just, of course, there’s the intelligence is there, they’re discriminating between the material energy and Krishna.

This means you have so many things and so you discriminate between them, which is the nicest. But, you know, how much Krishna is nicest is so much greater than anything else. The difficulty comes when it’s that Krishna is an option.

You know what I’m saying? We could do this, or we could do that, or we could, and it’s not necessarily we discriminate. You know, we did, we were talking Pajalpa and all that, and haven’t seen them for a long time, and it was really great, and then, yeah, yesterday we also, there was a nice kirtan in the evening, you know, Maharaj was leading, it was really great, you know, and so many other things, and yeah, yesterday at lunch, you know, we had this, and that was so far out, and then, you know, this other person did this stupid thing, you understand? So it’s just a thing. So at least there’s a connection. So that’s good. So Krishna’s accepted by the mind as something that being involved with is pleasurable, is nice. So then one’s not averse. But here we’re talking about that complete surrender, so the mind has completely accepted that other than Krishna, nothing else is. So the goal piece is not there’s another topic to discuss. There’s not another person to be with. You know what I’m saying? So in that case, then it’s strong. But if it’s the mind is accepting, and it’s not working on the intellectual platform, but it’s just an option, that will be weak. So better one cultivates knowledge so that one starts to see the weakness of the other options.

Does that make sense? And actually see that what is actually giving a taste within the options other than Krishna is still Krishna. Then it starts to gradually bring everything towards Krishna. It’s hard to get away then.

Krishna declared this knowledge as most confidential. He told Arjuna to deliberate fully, and then do what he wished. Because if it’s a relationship, it’s still voluntary. Right? That’s the point. If this element is there, the relationship is there. Someone does something, they may do something you don’t like, but the point is, then you interact on that platform. If they adjust, then you adjust how you interact. But if you make it now, no, this is the identity. That’s the field. Even though they’ve changed, you’re not seeing the field. Right? The peasant is, they’re changing. Or they’ve understood there’s a mistake. And so, that’s actually the present. If you’re dealing with, no, you did this, that’s the past. You understand? It doesn’t mean it’s not a consideration. But to make that fully the basis, then relationships fall apart. If Krishna did that, he wouldn’t have any relationship with any living entity in the material world. No, but how you surrender, that he reciprocates. You don’t surrender. He doesn’t deal in that way. He deals according to how you surrender to the material energy. It’s still him. But you don’t think it’s him. You think it’s, you know, my fancy car. So therefore, you know, he interacts with you on the basis of how you deal, according to your karma. Right? You have karma to have good prestige, then the prestige element of your car will interact with you nicely. You don’t have, even though you want it, it won’t happen. Yes? I think the karma remain the same also for the devotees. The karma, yes, the same. But the point is, is, are you functioning, is it karma first and then results for Krishna, or it’s results for Krishna and then you engage the karma?

What’s the need?

You know what I’m saying? What’s the need? Do you need to change your body to do service?

Do you need to change your house? Or your car? Or your shoes?

That’s there, but why would you want a better one?

That’s the point. If it’s a better one for you, but you’ll use it for Krishna, then that’s karma yoga. If it’s that it will get a better result for Krishna, then you get the shoes, then it’s pure devotion.

This is the point. It’s really, really simple, but the problem is, is, we’re really attached to the, it’s mine, and then I give it to Krishna, because then I get credit for it, right? If I do something and get the results, then give it away, then that’s very religious. It’s very pious. Everybody should, you know, be standing up and clapping and whistling and all this and that, right? But the point is, no, you’ve done it, you’re doing it for Krishna. So therefore, if anyone acknowledges it or not, it doesn’t matter. You’ve already, you’ve done it for Krishna. You know what I’m saying? So, that’s the point. That’s why the pure devotee doesn’t need to be recognized. That’s how he can be humble. The other one can’t be humble because he needs to be recognized, right? Because he thinks it may not be I’m great and I’m the doer, but it’s no, I want the emotional support that comes from a religious act. You know what I’m saying? Because someone could say, no, no, he’s not, he’s very humble, and he may be. He thinks I’m not, you know, I’m not really the doer, but he wants that recognition.

So then that way it’s not ultimately free from false ego because he identifies as the recipient of religious appreciation.

You understand? So that’s why when Prabhupada says, unless one’s a devotee, there are no good qualities, it’s meant. Because if you dig deep enough, there isn’t any. But for the devotee, you dig deep enough, you find Krishna. And if you dig deeper, you find more Krishna. So, you know.

Is that okay? So that’s why I said you don’t have to change the situation.

You know, if one, so the only need to change the situation, if you identify with that situation so much in the way of your position in it or as the doer or as the enjoyer of the results, that if you function in that, you can’t connect it to Krishna. Therefore, by adjusting the situation, one will be more conscious so that one can apply that. Then that’s what’s done. That’s the point that Prabhupada gives about the brahmachari. Is that in the beginning, he separates himself from the social environment. Because in that social environment, he’ll just act according to habit. So he separates himself, and then he becomes conscious. When he’s conscious, then he can function and see Krishna. Once he sees Krishna in everything, then he can be back in the social environment and preach and not have a problem. So, it may be beneficial to do that, but that’s not the point. Devotees get distracted that that is exclusively the devotional point. No. The point is you’re trying to remember Krishna.

So, detachment is not actually the point. That is offered to Krishna, that’s the point. So, to offer it to Krishna, then if it doesn’t come naturally, then it has to be because of detachment. I do the work, I’m able to do the work without attachment and therefore give the result to Krishna. But what you’re trying to get to is, I want to please Krishna, so I’ll do this work for him. It’s the opposite. That’s why it becomes confusing. It looks exactly the same. The karma yogi and the pure devotee, doing the same activity, will do it exactly the same. If they both have the same ability and same sophistication, they’ll get the same result. So, it looks exactly the same, but there’s a world of difference in that the one is pure because Krishna is the initial consideration. Then the work is the secondary. Well, for the karma yogi, the work and result is the primary and Krishna is the secondary. But, Krishna being connected at any level is still good.

So, therefore, the duck taking prasad in Regent Park is still good because it’s connected to Krishna. It’s not that the duck comes up and goes, Is this Mahaprasad? Like that, and says, Yes. You know, what offering? Oh, well, that was the Vaikalya Bhoga. Okay, yeah. That’s cool. Like that. Raj Bhoga’s too heavy. We’re ducks, you know. Yes? If you’re doing something to serve Krishna’s devotees directly in relation for them to go closer to Krishna, is that the same as serving Krishna directly? The point is, it’s the result for the other person. You know, in connection to Krishna, that’s where you’re starting from. It means you don’t have something invested to gain from it. Because, otherwise, the element of sacrifice means you’re doing it for Krishna. That’s the ultimate sacrifice. But the definition is that you’re voluntarily giving up something for someone else. Right? So, if that’s done before or after, that makes the quality of it. You know, I do it and then I give it up, you know, that’s good. People will say, yes, you know, that he was ethical and moral, but he may have had to wrestle with it. But, you know, it’s cool. Good guys won. But if it’s being done just to please them first, then that’s even better. He’s so selfless. If he does it and wrestles with it then gives it up, they’ll say he’s moral or he’s religious or he’s ethical or he wants to do the right thing. But if he just does it first, they’ll say he’s selfless. But the point is, is there a need for them to be recognized for that or experience that exchange? Then there’s something there for themselves. You know what I’m saying? They’re feeding the poor kids in Africa. But then, you know, so the normal ones go there and they get a picture and people tell them how they’re happy and so then they’re happy that they’re happy and stuff like that. But it makes them happy to know that someone else is happy in this way. So it’s not a bad thing, but there’s still that mundane emotional thing because the point is, is that sense of happiness still comes from Krishna. That’s not being recognized. Though you find the really big guys, they actually, you know, have the arrangements and the money. They actually fly to Africa and see the kids being fed. Or even better, feed them themselves. And then they get that direct interaction which inspires them even more. You know what I’m saying? But still they’re not seeing that that happiness are not coming from Krishna. So it’s still underlying for themselves. Though others are benefiting. It means at least if you’re going to be selfish, share it. That’s better. That’s a higher consciousness. But still more higher than that is that you’re performing the duty because that’s what you should do. You have money, you should give it away. And you should give it to someone who’s qualified.

Right? Does that make sense? You know, so like that. That’s the point of making these fine discriminations here.

Yes? Can I ask what the main elements of Varnashram College should be? Not in this environment because here it should be on the topic because that’s Varnashram College is its own subject. That would be discussing the, you know, Dharma and how to apply it properly.

Yes? Maharaj, as you explained the person who is acting on the platform of pure devotional service, is he acting on the platform of karma? And the person who is acting, just first doing the work of offering it to Krishna on the platform of karma? Okay. Someone who’s performing karma yoga, is he acting on the platform of karma? And someone on pure devotional service, is that all karma? No. They’re both acting on without karma. The difference is, he’s not getting karma for the activity, but because of the attachment to result, he will experience the happiness or distress that goes in relationship to that. It looks like karma, but it’s not. You know what I’m saying? Because Krishna’s reciprocating according to how you surrender. So you’re dealing with Krishna himself, so therefore he’s making that arrangement. The other is just the material modes of nature take care. She knows what to do. So the difference is happening at the level of the polluted consciousness. Yeah. Polluted consciousness.

Yes. Can you say that at the stage of pure devotional service one has to make conscious endeavor and analyze one’s consciousness every time and try to put it in the right way, right perspective? It means the analyzation can happen either in pure devotional service or in buddhi yoga. Say buddhi yoga means that definitely has to be there. The pure devotional service may be more spontaneous or may have this intellectual aspect depending upon how well we’re situated. You know what I’m saying? Does that make sense?

Yes, one practices that. See, one always has to understand is that there’s always gradation. That’s why Krishna goes through and there’s so many levels of confidential knowledge. So the point is as soon as Krishna is, one is conscious of Krishna, that’s where reality begins.

Then there’s deeper and deeper levels of being conscious of Krishna. The greatest is it pleases Krishna as a person. Therefore I do it in this way.

Does that make sense? That’s then what he’s trying to get at too. Because otherwise the elements of the Brahman, Paramatma, that’s all how all the indirect elements can be connected. But ultimately then what is seen in connection with Krishna as a person, then if that activity would be considered an activity in the mode of goodness or activity that would be pious or its connection is completely for Krishna, then it would remain in that state. If not, one has connected the activity to Krishna and because of its particular situation, one is applying this on a very narrow aspect where one can actually get a completeness in the workings, connecting it to Krishna.

But the quality of what one is offering isn’t actually something that Krishna as a person would appreciate. Therefore it will be dropped.

It will be replaced with something offerable, like we gave an example. The person is seeing Krishna in connection with alcohol. But Krishna as a person doesn’t like alcohol, so you can’t offer it to Krishna. So on that level, it would have to be dropped.

But on the lower level, on the Brahman level, then you can see the workings of it. So on that level you can connect it to Krishna. It’s not that it’s been offered to Krishna specifically. You can only offer the pure water or see the taste is connected to Krishna. So you’re seeing the universal form. So that’s Parama.

So on that level, then, one is purified. But as one is purified, then we can’t rationalize and say, well, that’s enough. It’s Krishna conscious. No, it’s not enough, because if that was there, Krishna could have stopped after the third chapter, or fifth chapter would have been the conclusion, because you have the karma, and then you have the knowledge by which you act. And then you combine those two and Hari -Bal, that’s it.

Because Supersoul’s already been involved. But he’s bringing out, no, it has to get to the platform of Bhagavan. But to do that, you have to cut out all aspects of their material. Because if someone doesn’t like an interaction that’s not complete, if I’m talking to you and always, you know, watch like this, and like this, and yeah, so it’s really good. It’s not very nice, right? Because you distract it. So the point is is Bhagavan means he’s fully committed to interact. So that means the reciprocation would be that sameful commitment. So that means it can’t be any material distraction.

So that would mean that anything you’re dealing with within the material sphere is connected to Krishna, and connected because of its relationship, the result for Krishna himself as that person. You understand? So it would be given up. So in the beginning, the person may see the alcohol in connection. But as he becomes purified, then it’s, well, I’m doing this to please Krishna as a person. Does he actually like alcohol? No. So therefore I can’t offer that. So therefore, you know, I’ll go out and buy some grape juice. Right? That you can offer.

You understand? The problem is not the grapes and the water. The problem is the alcohol. Right? You understand? Because as a person, he doesn’t like that. But because it’s part of the material manifestation, then as Brahman and Paramatma, they’re working with it. The potency in that, the intoxicating factor, that’s all Krishna. Does that make sense? But the point is, so what he’s pointing out here is that you can function on the platform that Krishna as a person. You understand? This makes the distinction between where I take whatever’s in my life as it is and connect it to Krishna.

And then moving forward, that there’s certain elements in my life that aren’t that nice to connect to Krishna. And so I improve the quality. You know, like the shoes. Right? Does that make sense?

So, that’s the point. Because if we don’t accept that point there, then we’re rationalizing. Then we’re trying to say that staying on the level of karma yoga, jnana yoga, and that’s it. That’s the top and it’s fine and is equal to pure devotional service and talking about pure devotional service as fanatic, means they’re not accepting Krishna as a person. So technically, it’s atheism.

Technically. If you only accept part of Krishna and not part, that’s atheism. Because Krishna is complete. Right? That part that’s connected, that’s good. But the part that’s not connected, that’s not good. So that’s why it’s very important not to rationalize and not to create philosophies.

Because one has some idea how to connect this.

Yeah, in other words, using the knowledge to, you want to do the right thing, you want to be Krishna conscious, same time as the false ego is very attached to one’s identity. You know how you say, yeah, misidentifications like this. So, one rationalizes these things that they’re okay because they’re connected to Krishna. But that’s why Krishna says, that’s confidential to get to that platform. But there’s more confidential, which means you start to go beyond that, until he gets to the middle chapters, where then he introduces pure devotional service, which means you reverse the process. You’re dealing with the person. Right? So then he establishes who the person is. But now, to make that jump between the two, you have to be able to very clearly tell what’s material and what’s not. So that fine knowledge that’s given in these last chapters, then will show on how to discriminate very clearly. Because I say, I’m doing it for Krishna, but if you analyze it, is one doing it for Krishna?

You know what I’m saying?

Yes. So it has to be according, means, in other words, to please Krishna according to Sadhusastra. Because it’s, it’s the guru knows how to please Krishna. That’s why if you don’t do what the guru says, it’s really hard to please Krishna, because he knows how to please Krishna. So if you have the false ego think, I also know, then that’s going to be a problem.

Does that make sense? So, that’s the absolute platform.

But it doesn’t mean that platforms before that aren’t bona fide, but they’re not the goal, they’re methods to get there.

So there’s always a goal, but then there’s a goal beyond that. So pure devotional service, that’s the ultimate position one’s trying to get to. Does that make sense? You know, it’s like, you’re on the bus to Calcutta, you know, and they stop for, you know, tea at Runaghat, like that, and so everyone gets off the bus and uses the bathroom, and then one likes it there, and so then one just stops there, and the bus drives off, and then people say, what are you doing? What do you mean? I got from Mayapur to here, what are you talking about? I’ve been around a long time, this is 40 years, like that, I’m a Prabhupada disciple. Who are you to say all this? When you weren’t even a devotee, I was doing all this and that. But you’re in Runaghat, Calcutta’s another two hours, like that. Nobody, you know, is the glass half full or half empty? It’s like, get on the bus! You know, it’s like… You know what I’m saying? So this is the problem, is that it develops, is that the community develops around rationalizing whatever’s the lowest common denominator of Krishna Consciousness.

Right? Then you call it a community.

Right? Because community means there’s a common value. And so what’s the common value? What’s the lowest, I mean, the way that connects my material desires to Krishna, you know, in the simplest way with minimal endeavor that everybody can relate to. And then you’ll say, yes, this is a community. So that’s a start, that’s okay, but if you say that’s done, then you have problems. Because then you have to come back. Because if you’re attached to that, it’s not a matter of you’re trying to do it for Krishna and attachments are there. That’s a different thing. That’s sincere, but there’s still impurities. But this is that. You’re actually comfortable with this identity. This Krishna-ized false identity. You’re comfortable with it. Yeah, proud of it, other things. That is where you end up on the heavenly planets, because whatever it is that distracts you, that’s what then you’ll get. Then you come back in religious or, you know, wealthy families. And then you have to become a devotee again.

The other, you’re determining that. Then that’s where, if you don’t go back to Godhood, you come back in the families of devotees. There’s a difference.

Yes.

What do you mean, how do you define go back to Godhead? This is the problem.

But what do you mean by that? Where’s that situation?

Okay, but then where is, where is Goku?

Yes. So the point is, is those, those gopis that when Krishna blew his flute on the night of the Rasa dance, and they didn’t get to go, were they in their spiritual bodies? Yes.

Were they in spiritual bodies? Yes. Yes. Yes, so they had spiritual forms. See, the Svarupa Siddhi means that’s the platform of Brahma-Bhuta. That’s why we don’t put too much emphasis on it, right? Sahajiyas and others put a lot of emphasis because there’s not a lot of difference between Sahajiya and the Mayavadi, right? It’s just a matter of how much they like the pastimes or how much they like Dhyan, that’s all. But the Brahma-Bhuta platform means you’re not in a material body, you’re in a spiritual, your natural spiritual body. But the point is, Brahma-Bhuta means you haven’t developed pure unalloyed, you haven’t developed prema, but you’re on the Brahma-Bhuta platform, you’re on the transcendental platform. So you’re not in the material world, you’re in the spiritual world, but you haven’t developed love for Krishna. You understand? So then the process of Bhava Sadhana, or Bhava Bhakti, is developing that love. So when you come to the platform of actually being on that, then you’re qualified to go to Goloka. That’s why everybody goes through Gokula. Does that make sense? So when we hear things like a certain person left their body, they went back to Godhead. Yes, but back to Godhead means to Gokula, because it is back to Godhead. It means Krishna and the eternal associates don’t make any distinction. We’re the ones that make distinction. We’re the locative walnuts. We’re the time and space people. My question to a person who says that is, what is the Shastric proof that these people went back to Godhead, or back to Gokula?

Oh, that’s another thing. Don’t worry about that. The point is, if they remember Krishna, they went, and if they didn’t, they won’t. That’s all. It’s that simple. But what is the proof that we can say they went back to Godhead? Why worry about it? Because… You know, you’re going to go up to the five-year-old and she says, you know, the kid died. Mommy went to heaven. Well, actually, your mom was a meat-eater and all that, and she used to drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes like a smokestack. So she’s probably rotting in hell right now. Don’t worry about it, kid. Let’s get it straight here. Cut out all this sentiment. So, this is what you’re going to do? You know, you’re going to go out and stand there in the middle of Times Square and say, Santa is bogus. There is no Santa. Not only that, there is no Tooth Fairy. You know, like that. So all you kids, wake up. You know, welcome to the real world. You’re going to do that, right? So what does it matter? The point is, if they see the devotee in connection with Krishna, then that’s beneficial. Because they are in connection and they are under Krishna’s direction. So it’s just a matter of time. So, we make time a very big thing, but Brahma’s lifetime is three quarters of a second to Krishna. So, if it didn’t happen now, it’ll happen next time. But, you know, everyone’s going. So, the sentiment’s fine. But that’s the stance I always take. The same stance. But then it makes me worry when people say, everybody went back to Godhead. Very easily. And then they take the emphasis away from people actually doing the work to go back. If they take away the emphasis, then you point out, so therefore, if we also want to go back to Godhead, then we have to work.

You know, in other words, you just take that position and move it forward. Otherwise, it’s not that by pointing it out, that because what’s the work? The work is remembering Krishna. So, if you remember Krishna, you go back to Godhead. You see in the letters, Prabhupada will say, if you remember Krishna, it goes back to Godhead. If you didn’t, then he’ll end up in some nice heavenly arrangement. You know, or he would end up in the family of devotees. Like that, Prabhupada says.

You understand? So, that’s just the point. So, then, you know, the devotees will think about him, him thinking of Krishna, and then they’ll think in that way. And so, it connects it, it makes it work. Because the point is, you start chanting, you’re not within the material sphere. The problem is, is we still, by our conditioning, still think we are, but we’re not.

You understand? The person is awake, but he’s still thinking about the bad dream. So, they still identify and relive that and get the experiences, but they’re awake. But they can’t function as fully awake, because they’re still absorbed in the dream, though they’re awake. So, the persons come in contact with Krishna consciousness, they’re awake, but they’re still absorbed in the material consciousness.

Because the point is, is you remember Krishna, and you go back to Godhead. So, what’s to say the person didn’t remember? You know what I’m saying? He’s there, there’s kirtan, everybody’s there, there’s pictures. There’s a good chance they’ll remember. You know what I’m saying?

That’s it. But, you know, who knows what’s going on. So, that’s why, you know, just as much as one may be worried that people are getting sentimental and speculating, you shouldn’t also be pessimistic and also, you know, how you say it, speculating. Because how do you know what happened? It only takes a moment, it’s an eleventh of a second you may have missed that moment. You know, you coughed, or, you know, somebody came in the room, you know, and you would have missed eleven moments. You know.

You know, a good cough, you might have even lost twenty-two or thirty-three moments. You know, so, you know what I’m saying, is that this is the process that works. It’s not sentimental, it’s a science. But the point is, it’s based on the person’s actual devotional sentiment.

So there’s a science to create the environment for the sentiment to function. So the difficulty is that the sentiment is not functioning in the, you know, a Krishna conscious environment. That’s the actual problem. Sentiment’s not the problem. Right? Generically it’s not the problem. The problem is that it’s not connected to Krishna. Right? Mother Dashoda, you know, is in complete illusion about her son being out with the gopis. Her point is he’s a young, unmarried boy and, you know, he interacts so nicely with his mother, and so he’s not, you know, engaged in anything that shouldn’t be engaged in. Right? So even other elder gopis say that she should be careful about this. She doesn’t worry about it.

You understand? So one could say that’s sentimental. Our mother Dashoda is so sentimental. Right? But because it’s connected to Krishna, it’s perfect. That’s what makes her who she is. That’s what makes all the other gopis, elderly gopis, follow her. Because her sentiment to Krishna is, you know, the fullest. Does that make sense? So, that’s why you have to discriminate with the philosophy that you can see what is actually useful.

Does that make sense? Then we look at the medium. Yes? So, Maharaj, if the devotees of Dashoda go to the heavenly planet, their time frame is much faster. Their time frame is… So would they like… That means you’re going to miss the golden age of Lord Chaitanya here at this time, yes. So it’s a big danger for us. Yeah, or you’ll come back, just as this is now, you know, 40 years into it, you’ll come back 40 years at the end. So all those things that you’re saying, yeah, the moon’s going to fall apart, this and that, you know, now it won’t because it’s going towards, you know, the 5,000 years up. Then it will be the 5,000 years down. So it will fall apart. So all the things you said will happen, will happen. So, you know, that’s also an option, right?

Or, you know, you have to go to, you know, another universe where it’s happening and take part. But when we’ll have the mercy of being born again somewhere in the universe of Lord Chaitanya… We really like these born again. No, I don’t.

Okay, so it means, no, it says one will be born in these families and then one could take up where one leaves off. That’s why then persons from these kind of families, you have to be very careful how you preach to them and make sure you use intelligence to convince them of Krishna consciousness, right? Rather than just, you know, how you say, very well-meaning blunt enthusiasm.

Because these are your class of people that are your, how you say, best candidates for becoming Naradamas.

Because a Naradama means one who knows about Krishna, the process, and rejects it. That’s the definition of a Naradama. Just like Griha Medhi, the definition is one who Krishna’s not the center. Krishna’s involved but not the center. The house is the center and then Krishna’s one of the rings around the house. That’s a Griha Medhi. A Grihastha means Krishna is the center and all the rings of the house go around that. So that means someone who we would say is a devotee can be a Griha Medhi.

You know what I’m saying? Griha Medhi doesn’t mean they have to be disgusting, stinky, smelly, you know, all that. We take the direct definitions and one can see is one has to be very careful, one has to be very conscious. But the process is simply if one’s conscious, that’s all it takes. You know what I’m saying? It’s very direct but it’s very simple. So anyone can do it.

Does that make sense?

Yes.

Yes, so go to Gokula. Go to Gokula.

No, but why do we get caught on it has to be Prema, it has to be, you have to remember Krishna, so then you’ll be, that will free you from all material contamination, that will immediately situate you on the Brahma-Bhuta platform. So you’re on the transcendental platform so then you enter Gokula.

You know, but the problem comes is that for us Gokula’s not enough.

You know what I’m saying? But for the residents of Goloka, there’s no difference. Yes.

Yeah, you go directly to Gokula.

Aprakat Leela and Gokula are the same. They’re the same.

Like that. Yes.

No, you just have to remember Krishna at the time of death. But the point is why would you remember Krishna if everything else is more important? Because Krishna says remember Him without anything else. Because you can remember Him and something else. We gave an example, one devotee was telling me that he had a car accident. And then when he became conscious he means he wasn’t in the car. The body was in the car but he was outside the car. And then he started to move away from the car. And he was thinking about Krishna and everything and moving away from the car. And then then he as he’s going, then he thought oh, my daughter’s so young. What will happen to her? Bang! He was back in the car and was aware of all his injuries.

So Krishna means Him alone. Not Him and your daughter, Him and your money, Him and your business, Him and your wife, Him and your project.

No, it’s Him, us. You remember Him? It’s done. So that means it means practice. So the more one is practicing, the more one’s advanced, generally the more one it would take to do that. You would be more natural. But at the same time it’s because of the nature of leaving the body, things get more serious, so one has a tendency to focus. So if Krishna is what’s prominent to you, then that’s what you’re going to remember. You’re going to take shelter of whatever is going to make you feel secure.

So if it’s Krishna, then it’ll work. If it’s your mother, that’s what you’re going to say, yeah. I don’t know about now, but a few years back I saw an article about researching on the black boxes in airplanes and it said the last thing, basically on every black box that was ever said, because they’ll be saying this and that, talking between co-pilots and talking to ground control and all this and that and so many things, but the last thing they’d say before the crash would be Mommy.

You know, you had guys who were intelligent and did their jobs and were very responsible and everything like that. That’s how they became pilots, right? You know, yahoos don’t become pilots.

So, that’s the point. Wherever you feel secure, that’s what you’re going to remember. So if Krishna’s your security, you’ll think of him. So it’s a very simple process, but you want to ensure that the simple process works. So we have a very sophisticated process based on simple principles in which you can apply Krishna consciousness everywhere so Krishna becomes the actual goal so that at the time of death you remember Krishna and then you go to Gokula.

Yes, like that.

That’s the point, is that difficulty’s not the problem. The point is if you’re remembering Krishna, then you’re happy. It’s like, let’s say you let’s say your house represents to you that emotional security of having a loving family. It may be a bit archaic, but humor me, we’ll go with this one. So you’re working hard, you’ve got the thing, mortgage is going on and all that, but then you run into some problems, they raise your mortgage thing gets something raised or some other things or a bunch of punks move in across the street or something, so you feel you’re not as secure. But then what’s happening is you’re not remembering why you’re not happy is you’re not remembering what it is the reason that you want the house for that emotional family security.

You’re thinking of other things. Oh, those guys, how could they raise my premium and this and that and going on and on. You’re not remembering Krishna.

You know what I’m saying? Because Krishna is that sense of security. He is security. He is emotion. He is those positions. He is the mother, the motherness, fatherness, wifeness, you know, childness. He is that. So when you remember that, then you’re happy. And the distress means you’re not remembering that. And so you think it’s this external form that is my obstacle to me being able to appreciate this. But because I’m not understanding the science, not being God conscious, therefore we thought all along it was the house that’s generating that sense of happiness. But it’s actually Krishna, that qualities of Krishna that is generating it. We’re discussing it. This is the Brahman platform.

So the actual problem is that forgetfulness of Krishna. So if you’re remembering Krishna, then these obstacles don’t get in the way. You know what I’m saying? It’s always the theme is something happens and they’ve taken whatever it is who he loves very much or something. He goes through all kinds of amazing obstacles to overcome to kill the bad guys and get his girlfriend back or whatever it is. And so no one says, wow, all those obstacles, that’s really difficult. This is really lame being a hero. Who’d want to go through all that? No, everyone thinks it’s great because it’s not the problems. If you remember your goal and you’re experiencing that remembrance, no one says the obstacles are a problem.

It’s when you’re not remembering, then they say they’re a problem, but nobody understands the science that this is what’s going on. So they think happiness is good, distress is not good. But it’s the distress that made the person go so much greater to prove their relationship or make that endeavor in the relationship and therefore develop their relationship. I mean, the relationship becomes solid. One understands, one’s committed.

Does that make sense? You know, of course, that’s where the movie will end because they don’t know anything more than that, but whatever. You understand? So the point is, for Koinkunthi, they see everything in relationship to Krishna. So the points of distress are more intense.

And so you remember Krishna even more.

So that’s why it’s not a problem for the devotees. So all these difficulties aren’t a problem. The gopis aren’t thinking, wow, you know, this is such a trip. Every night I have to think of a new excuse how to get out of the house, you know, and how to, you know, all the dressing up and everything like that. You know, I mean, it’s such a trip. It’d be so much easier just to sit at home and cook chapatis for the family and, you know, I’ll read a little Krishna book and, you know, stuff like that. You know, wildness, you know, going out in the forest and there’s all the lions, tigers and bears, you know, all this kind of jazz. So, you know, wouldn’t it be so much easier? No, but it’s not a problem because they’re remembering Krishna.

Does that make sense? So for the devotee, there’s nothing that’s not you know, generates an inspiration to remember Krishna. So if in the good and the difficulties one is remembering Krishna, then why won’t one remember Krishna at the time of death? Right? Because it’s one, good is that this is your time to go back to Godhead and, you know, but at the same time, it doesn’t, it comes with its difficulties.

You know what I’m saying?

Is that okay?

You had something? Yeah, I was curious, if one is on the Brahma-Buddha platform, do they take birth in the holy god-like tribe or not in various other temples around the planet? Not necessarily. That’s generally, that you go to Gokula. You take birth here because of, you know, you still have some needs. You know, you’re here, you know, Lord Chaitanya is, you appreciate and, you know, devotees do whatever they’re doing and so either like it more so you’re born in the family of, you know, practicing devotees, you know, or you’re born in the family of general devotees, ordinary who are not Sampradayaks specifically or around here you can be born in Muslim families, right? They appreciate, you know, what the devotees do but they wouldn’t want to do it themselves. You know, they have their own programs. They’re not really into the Vedic stuff. Sound familiar? Or in animals or plants, right? Huh? Yeah, animals or plants. Is it true then that one who takes birth or dies in the holy land is liberated?

do you define liberation? Freedom from material strength. Yeah, but it doesn’t mean that because of your condition you don’t put yourself back into that at the same time as you may be completely free from that. You have to see what it is. That is the point. You know what I’m saying? In other words, that’s not for you. What happened to that dog is not the point. What you do is actually going to be the point. So you don’t have to stress and worry about all the plants and animals and stuff like that. It’s not that only if that dog goes back to Godhead then I’m going to be serious about this project, this process. No, you’ll be serious whether it’s not. The reason your dog is they weren’t so serious. So that’s the point to learn. They’re devotees. They’ll be liberated, but the point is do you want to be a dog?

Yeah, that’s the point. So when we say somebody that dies in the land goes back home to Godhead. No, you don’t go back home to Godhead. Liberated.

That may mean that they go to that platform. You don’t know what is the reason that’s there. He was on the Brahmabhuta platform. He came as a deer because of remembering a deer. So you don’t know what is the reason. That’s all between them and Krishna. That’s why the dhammasis are special. We stay out of their way. Because it’s between them and Krishna.

You know. So it’s just the way it works.

We follow sadhana. We follow the Goswamis. That was Lord Caitanya’s instruction to the Goswamis is don’t get too involved with the brajabhasis. They have another process.

It’s not our process. We follow, you know, what the acharyas have given us. You know, and don’t worry about them.

Maratha was on the Brahmabhuta platform. Brahmabhuta and Brahmabhuta are the same.

Question. Some preachers like emphasize that to get to Krishna’s pastimes we should learn more about what’s going on there in detail. But you learn more in detail. But as you see is how many can even define the difference between Gokula and Goloka, Brahmabhuta and Babasadhana and the Swarupasiddhi. It means they can’t even define the mechanics of the situation. So how are they actually going to understand what’s there? You know what I’m saying? The point is, is one should be cultivating Krishna, hearing about Krishna’s pastimes because that’s the process is hearing about the name, form, qualities and pastimes. So the process is name, form and qualities. So can we define those?

Then pastimes becomes very meaningful.

How do you appreciate? Okay, there’s a pastime. Krishna does something with the Gopis. So he’s Radharani asks Krishna where did he stay last night? Right? And so then he gives all kinds of clever answers. So the appreciation of that, one can just, it was a nice pastime so that’ll be there, but if you understand Krishna’s quality of cleverness then you appreciate that aspect. You’ll understand more. So he has 64 qualities, you understand them, you’ll appreciate the pastimes more.

You know what I’m saying? But that’s not what’s emphasized. They only talk about the pastime itself direct, but which is nice as long as one is absorbed, but the point is these other aspects make it more, there’s more to contemplate. Otherwise your pastime is nice and then there’s all these elements in your life. But if you understand what’s the science you see all those aspects in your life, so you connect them all to Krishna, then you appreciate it more.

You know what I’m saying? So it’s a matter, it’s isolated, and that’s not proper. It’s part of the process, it’s an important part. So those who take the other side as, oh you know, anything to do with Raga, we know where to throw up their hands, but the point is Raga simply means that you’re natural and spontaneous in your performance of the devotional activities, that’s the direct form. But some will say, no, it only means when you’re in the bhava of one of the residents. No, but what’s the bhava of the residents of Vrndavana? It’s full surrender. That’s what makes bhaja, it’s full surrender.

You know what I’m saying? Kubja, she is considering everything in connection to Krishna, but she thinks she’ll enjoy by being in connection with Krishna. She’s Purusha Shakti. Higher than that, the queens of Dwaraka. So they’re seeing it all in connection to Krishna, but as wives, it’s 50-50. So 50-50, you know, 50% it’s Krishna’s way, 50% it’s their way. But the gopis, then it’s 100%, it’s about Krishna.

So it’s not the conjugal rasa, it’s the surrender that makes a brajbasi.

You understand? So that’s the element that’s being said, so that we can say what Krishna is saying here in the Gita. This is talking about braj, you know, bhakti.

The word he uses, sharanam vraja, so it has that subtle hint.

Because that vraja means full surrender, that’s what makes it special.

Because otherwise, this conjugal relationship going on in Vaikuntha and Ayodhya and Dwaraka and like that, so it’s not the conjugal rasa that makes it special.

It’s the full surrender.

You know what I’m saying? If you say, well, it’s Parakhiya, Kubja’s relationship with Krishna is also Parakhiya. She’s not married to him.

So it’s not even the Parakhiya. These are elements that heighten it. They’re details.

You know what I’m saying? The real point is that full surrender. That’s what makes a vraja devotee.

So those elements that bring that out. So this here makes a, okay, full surrender means you could look at it as that attachment to Krishna is complete. So if that’s accomplished, perfect. But if it’s not, what are the elements that are getting in the way of that pure attachment? That pure surrender. Therefore, the Gita gives this so you can analyze it. Remember, Gita is the ABCs.

This is the first of twelve years.

You know, study doesn’t stop at twelve.

Does that make sense?

So we have to remember that it’s important that we know who Krishna is by reading about his pastimes.

Does that make sense? But it’s not that that itself is the only point. No. That’s along with everything else.

You know what I’m saying?

If I give you rice and subji for lunch and it was good, what are you going to talk about? What are you going to tell people about? The subji. You’re not going to talk about the rice. But if I just gave you subji and it wasn’t a Kadasi, would you tell everybody that it was great? I don’t know. I went there, you know, subji was nice, but it was only subji. You know, but if it was subji and rice, you’d go, wow, it was really nice lunch, really great subji, you know, nice flavors and everything. You understand? So, talking about the gopis without the process of Vaidi Bhakti, then it doesn’t really have much meaning. And the sincere people, it’s not very interesting to them.

Right?

You understand? That’s the point.

Yes?

You detailed about the devotee remembering Krishna at the time of death. Could you speak a little about the, because many devotees, including myself, are on the Ganesha platform. So, could you speak a little about the Prakriti?

Are you presenting the Kanistha and the Prakriti devotee as two separate elements, or as the same element? I understand Prakriti as being a materialistic devotee.

No, that’s not incorrect. But I got the idea that you separated Kanistha and Prakriti Bhakti.

Kanistha’s love, they must have a materialistic aspect. According to the Acharyas, they’re exact synonyms.

Prakriti Bhakta means that he has the materialistic aspects are very prominent in his life. The Madhyama means he’s steady in the devotional process. So it’s the prominent element. Though there may still be the materialistic side, but it’s not prominent. Does that make sense? So Kanistha is simply meaning that there’s lower, middle and higher stages. So it’s a different term for defining what is the level that one’s at, and the Prakriti is defining why they’re at that level. You know what I’m saying? So the person on the Uttamadhikari platform, they’re Brahmabhutas, so there’s no material endeavor. There’s no material attraction or desire. But it still doesn’t mean why. So they’re on that platform, but there’s still the fragrance of conditioned life. So they still have the pious and impious results. So that’s why when devotees talk about it’s nice, it’s good, just because of that it’s good enough, it’s still going to be an obstacle. Because one’s pious activities are still withhold one back, because they’re an identity. So in here, the reason the gopis that don’t go when Krishna plays the flute is because of these. And so because of these, they’re absorbed in performance of their duties. So they’re taking care of the house nicely, making their cow dung patties and all that, even though those aren’t politically correct.

So, you know, cooking for the family, taking care of the children in the family, serving the husbands, doing all the things that they’re supposed to do. And it is the spiritual world, so there’s not going to be any problems, right? There’s no problems. So everything’s perfect. So they’re just so absorbed there that their complete absorption in Krishna is not obtained. You understand? That’s why they don’t go. But, because they would like to go and they are Krishna conscious, that’s how they got themselves there in the first place. That’s a natural relationship. Then, when they can’t go, their meditation on Krishna is so full and complete they come to the platform of samadhi. Right? So in that state, then all the reactions, I mean, not all the reactions, but all the effect of their pious and impious results are completely burnt up. So there is no, from that point, no distraction by family life anymore. So the next time, you know, the pastime happens, then Yogamaya arranges they can go. Unless that happened immediately, there was only a little left and it happened immediately they were stopped, then Yogamaya arranged, then they went. But for those that didn’t, then that pastime itself then completed the process. Because you have to have complete attachment. That happens at the point of samadhi. That’s the third stage of bhava-bhakti.

You understand? So then they can associate. Because the problem is they didn’t take, they weren’t that focused so they didn’t get the association of the eternal associates. Because it’s from the eternal associates then you learn fully the mood. Right? The gopis, they have the mood of the conjugal relationship towards Krishna, but it’s not as strong as the eternal associates have. So by their association you develop that. Then one’s able to serve and everything like that. Then one comes to the stage where one, that becomes now your position.

Because otherwise then, you know, one could… Does that make sense?

Yes. Was Maharaja at the moment of thinking about a baby deer on the Brahma-bhuta platform?

Was Maharaja Bharata at the moment, when he, at the time of death, when he thought of the deer on the Brahma-bhuta platform? Yes.

See, you already had your question answered. You just had to confirm your materialistic concept. Yes. Is this the last class? No, it means this is the last class before Gaurapurnima. We’ll continue because we haven’t finished. We were supposed to start, you know, Vedic psychology or that from next Thursday or Friday.

Yeah, but it’ll be, I think, Friday will be the next class. And then it’ll continue till we finish and that we still are on the same page. This page. Because you touch on certain topics. You touch Varanashram, that’s a good 2-3 day distraction. You touch on how the soul fell, that can be weeks distractions.

You touch on this thing going back to Godhead, Goloka, Gokula, Bhakti, Prema-bhakti, this is generally a couple of days. Whenever these come up, we always get these same distractions and basically same questions. They’re not doubts, they’re misgivings. Because the point is, I want the highest, Goloka is the highest, therefore, I can’t really settle for Gokula. And Gokula can’t actually be the spiritual if it’s not already there, but it can be. That’s the meaning of Tathasta. Tathasta means they’re both. We really have problems understanding because we’re not self-realized, and we’re Tathasta-Shakti, therefore we can’t understand Tathasta-Shakti.

Means the two are in the same place at the same time. So, Krishna’s there, he’s who he is. He’s standing on Vrndavana, right? And all the gopis are there, and they’re all, you know, scared. And they’re in Vrndavana. And Arishtasura’s there, he’s a demon in a material form, and he’s stepping on what everybody else would say is Vrndavana, but he’s stepping on Nila’s not there.

You know, the internal potency’s not there, he’s stepping on the external potency. And so, they’re both at the same place at the same time. That’s the difference between Gokula and Goloka. Goloka, there is no manifestation as such of that Tathasta. The Tathasta there is in the fire of the internal potency, so therefore you don’t see that manifestation. There’s no need. But, because you’re trying to choose between material and spiritual, or you’ve chosen spiritual, now between spiritual and devotional.

You know, or you’ve chosen devotional, but devotional and pure unalloyed devotional, you know, for us. Or it’s devotional and pure devotional for everybody else. So, that’s the point where it’s being done.

So, will there be a class Monday? No. Next class will be Friday. Because Monday, Tuesday… Yeah, Friday, a week ago. So, you can choose to answer this in a class.

Maitreya Tanya, we all know the conclusion verse of the Sarvottamahapuja Shastra. But somehow Maitreya Tanya rejected that as external. And Ramana Guruji brought it up as the goal of life.

No, he brought up Varanasi. He brought up Varanasi, but then he brought up that verse, and then he brought up Yadamishivati after that. And then The first thing Guruji kind of accepted was hearing from self-realized souls, bhakti, there’s no chance you’d get on or… So what’s the difference between that and Sarva -dharma and Pratyahaja?

I mean, I’ve speculated how that could have been rejected. But the thing is, you have to go back and look, was it actually rejected? Isn’t that the point where he says, OK, now we’re starting to talk something? No, it’s two verses further. OK, so the point is still the element of dharma is still the prominent aspect, that you’re giving up the religion and surrendering. So that’s still not technically pure devotional service.

What he’s pointing out is that you have to surrender, then perform your dharma. In other words, your dharma has to be connected to that surrender, rather than you’re surrendering the dharma. The surrender, that is your dharma, rather than you’re starting with dharma and surrendering it. So depending on the context, it could be taken either way.

So it would appear that the context, as it’s carrying on from the Varnasrama discussion, it still had that element to it. Because some will interpret that dasyam will mean that, engaging your nature according to Varnasrama in the Lord’s service, which technically is dasyam, but it’s not the Varnasrama element. It’s engaging your nature that’s actually the dasyam aspect. So we don’t emphasize as much the Varnasrama there as the devotional. So we’ll say it’s actually not Rupa Goswami. But let’s say the Madhusudana, that’s very much part of it. Because in Vaikuntha, it’s all based on that. It’s Vaidhi, so it’s going to remain that way. So it would be interpreted that way, but for us it’s not.

So the element of hearing and chanting, hearing and the association, that is the actual point of apandas.

When you’ve come to Purva Raga, in the association of the devotees, that’s the only places you’re going to come to that pure attachment to Krsna. So therefore, even coming to the Brahma-bhuta platform, Suksita and all that, that’s still okay, but Bharata Maharaja fell from that platform. So that’s not the platform that we will say that’s perfection. It is perfection, but that’s not the ultimate perfection. So it gets actually serious when you take up the association of the eternal associates. So that’s when we say that’s serious. But that element, that continues down to where you associate with devotees and hear from them. Just as you have your suru, but the beginning stages of that are understanding as servant of Krsna. What form you have, that’s a detail. You understand?

So that association with devotees, that’s actually what makes the process work. That’s the real thing.

So then you could say, that would be okay, where we would start. And then it would be the quality of that, that surrender and everything, and then from there, that’s why you see from there it would very quickly move into the elements of rasa and prema-bhakti. Because it starts down, we’ll see it here, but actually in the devotional platform, bhava-sadhana, that’s what actually makes it work. Just as what makes our sadhana-bhakti here work is that. And so on the Brahma-bhuta platform, when you take that up, then it’s very quickly it moves into prema. Right? Well, here it’s dynamic, but you know, it may take a few years.

Does that make sense? So that’s, is that okay?

Yes.

Question. Are the residents in Gokula progressing to Goloka? Are the residents in Gokula progressing to Goloka? It depends on if they are nitya-siddhas. If they’re coming down or going up. If they’re going up, then yes. And if they’re coming down, they’re already there. They don’t see any difference.

And the second one is, is it possible to change your rasa in the spiritual world by coming down and then going up? What’s the point?

You know what I’m saying? If it’s simply a matter of options, I want my options. The point is, is it’s still, it’s connected to Krishna. If you absorb yourself in Krishna, that’s the perfection. So how you particularly absorb yourself in Krishna, that’s a detail. So that’s not the prominent element. First you get to the point of always being absorbed in Krishna. Then these things will make sense. I don’t understand why you’re always absorbed in Krishna.

No, but the point is, is you’re only thinking about his options. It’s like going to a restaurant.

You know what I’m saying? You want to, you know, enjoy. So what are your options of enjoyment? You know, kind of, well, I’ve done that one. So what I, this one. So we, you know, like that, you know, a la carte approach to spiritual. You understand? But the point is, is if we’re fully absorbed in Krishna, then that mood of absorption will be, you know, natural. It will be automatic. So we don’t have to worry about it. You know what I’m saying? So what I’m saying is this mathematical consideration of this, if it’s possible or not, what’s the importance?

In the spiritual world, you, I mean, in Gokula, you wouldn’t because you’re in your spiritual form. So it’s already there. Why would you choose? You know what I’m saying? Otherwise, then you have to have it. What’s the name? LGBT, you know, committee in, yes.

Stagnant. Why the word stagnant? I would say the person who said that, their intelligence is stagnant.

Stagnant, it’s not, there’s no such thing as stagnant. So if that’s there, then, so what they would really like is every time they walk in the door to their house, it’s a complete surprise what mood that person who legally is married to them as a wife may take. You know, they’ll walk in and, you know, actually, you know, they’re Santa Claus, and the next day they walk in and they’re their mother-in-law, right? Now that would be a real twist on things is your actual wife becomes your mother -in-law, right? And so this way every day it changes. Then you walk in one day, she’s your daughter. And the next day you walk in, she’s the poodle, right? You know, and your wife’s your dog. This way, you know, this would really give real taste to Grievoce, like none of this static, boring, you know, this person that you’re married to legally, and every day you come home and every day you’re there your wife, right? Isn’t that, you know, just static and, you know, really old-fashioned?

You’d walk in, it’s not even your house anymore, right? Sorry, your house is three doors down, you know, today, you know, like that. Great house, you know.

You know what I’m saying? So this is the problem is that they’re so worried that I won’t be happy, and I won’t enjoy being happy, that they want their options open, which is natural, it’s a feminine quality. But they have to understand it comes from the quality because they’re feminine in the soul. But the point is it’s in connection with Krishna. So even if it is something different, who cares?

And if it’s not, who cares? Because it’s connected to Krishna. Krishna is eternal. Krishna is, because He’s ever-expanding, therefore, there’s always something new and fresh. So He’s nava-yovana. So whatever it is, even if it’s the same relationship every day, day in, day out, eternally, it’s still ever-fresh, you’ll never get bored. So we’re simply applying that the material, unless you have this variety in this way, it won’t be good. So we’re trying to apply that in the spiritual world. But it’s actually because there’s spiritual variety that works here. But it doesn’t mean here it’s temporary, so bodies change, everything changes. There it doesn’t. So the variety is within the context of one’s relationship, one’s situation. You know, Radharani’s always from Varsana, not she’s from somewhere else, because she’s been from, you know, I’ve been from Varsana eternally, can’t I be from somewhere else? You know, I mean, come on.

Yeah, does that make sense? So the point is, is once one comes to go in one’s spiritual body, that wouldn’t change. If there’s any change, it would be before that.

But the point is, is it’s a matter of uncovering who you are. It’s not a matter of choosing. So if I was to have a certain feeling of who I was in this, after coming into this world, would that have always been like that in the spiritual world? That you have to see, if it’s actually in line with what it is. It may be speculation. Right? So you have to see, is it in line with the Shastra, or is it just, you know, your feelings? Yeah, that’s what I’m asking. If it was in line, etc., would it mean that it was always that, roughly? Yeah. Yeah. The point is, is the mirror’s dirty, and you rub on the mirror, and when you actually can see your face, is it going to be a different face?

Yeah, but it’s the same face. Like that. Does that make sense?

It’s like the cloak room. You come into a place, leave your coat at the door. When you leave, you get your coat back.

Like that. What is that?

So the spiritual identity gets left at the door.

Okay, so.

We got through two paragraphs.

Because the other one was a review, just to go into the.

Okay. So at this pace, then, hopefully we’ve finished before Nishing gets a tour this week.

Yeah. Yeah, we got through two words today.

Wow, we did one syllable.

Om Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama,

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