Prabhu (1): Hare Kṛṣṇa. I have a problem with the idea of the culture of Vedic culture. It was presented to me the other day that it is not cultural for a woman to speak in front of a group. It is cultural for her to dance in front of a group. Or, you know, serve in a school in front of a group, but it is not cultural for her to give class to men. I wonder if you could clarify that.
His Holiness Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Mahārāja: Okay. It’s just like, now, if the lady is… Did we hear it? No? He was saying that he had a problem with, at least bringing up this aspect of the Vedic culture about women speaking in front of men. While, let’s say, they can speak in a classroom or some other environments.
So now, if the lady is a teacher, she is in the classroom and she is teaching. She is teaching students. And whose students are they? Her students – that is the key. Here they are not her students, there is no possession, so there is no closeness, there is no leverage.
Prabhu (1): That doesn’t make any sense to me.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: That’s because it’s cultural. [Laughter]
Prabhu (1): Well, I am the first person to admit I have no culture.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay.
Prabhu (1): I don’t understand why a woman can dance in front of a man, but she is not allowed to speak in front of men…
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, no, no – those are her students, so therefore there is emotional control over them, there is emotional… It is not a matter of speaking. Women do more speaking than men. It is a matter of the environment in which you have the emotional control. Those are the environments where the woman takes the lead. And in environments where women, where you don’t have emotional control, that’s where the men take the lead.
Prabhu (1): But if a woman is speaking Bhagavad-gītā or Bhāgavatam, how is that… How do you say? Undesirable, whereas a woman dances in front of men, and we consider that cultural…
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, no, no. But why… But the thing is, you are bringing it down to the man-woman element, so you must admit there is a difference in the way they think and everything. You must sit around with other men and discuss about how women are different.
Prabhu (1): Of course, there is a difference, that’s my question.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, now we have to know, is that the Vedic culture knows fully the difference. We as Westerners don’t know – we just don’t know. We just know they are different.
Prabhu (1): But you are not explaining it, you are just saying it is cultural.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, no. I can explain it, but then you have to not talk while I am talking. [Laughter] It is also a standard method of exchange here. So now, the element is just like this, we will give some examples to try to get to it. Let us say, we use the Western method, the boy and girl getting together. Okay, they interact, this and that, the boy finds it is great. Now, when he commits to be married or gets married, he notices the mood changes in the girl. What is the difference? The difference is simply the element of possession. She didn’t possess before, so she only presents that much of the personality that men will find attractive. As soon as there is possession, then she can present what she, her full self, which she feels, if someone is committed, they will be able to appreciate. Though it is not necessarily appreciated, therefore the Western 75% divorce. But in that environment of possession, then you have control. That is how she controls – it is through the possession. While the man works more on mechanics: here is a class, here is a verse, this is what you are supposed to do. While the woman works on the principle of possession.
So, therefore, you have to find, since the point being made is about discussing, you know, Gītā as you said, is important, therefore you have to find forms in which she can do that and people specifically want to hear from her. Therefore you see the examples of Jāhnavā Devī, she speaks in her house, and who wants to come comes there. But when it comes to the public lectures, that was Śrīnivāsa Ācārya. So, therefore, senior men do go and hear from these great ladies, but it is because they are going and hearing from her, they are being her student. That is how it works. When it is generic and it is impersonal, women don’t flourish. But when they have that… So, therefore, let’s say one Mātājī is there and she is taking out a parikrama, then people are there because they want to be, there is a personal relationship, so it has strength, it has meaning. You know, they want to run a class, who is stopping anybody from running classes? Right? Russians are running a class. This one is running a class. No. You run class, you want to speak, you speak. Is it about speaking Gītā, or is it about a social issue? Personally, I would say from the evidence is from personal issue, because otherwise the forms to speak are unlimited. But you have to know which one you work in.
Just like when the man is out in the field, he is at work, he feels he is in control. But as soon as he walks in the front door of his house, his wife is in control. Why? It is a different environment. It is like the elephant is strong on land, weak in water. The crocodile is strong in the water, weak on land. It is just the way it is. So knowing this, then you create the environments in which women can do this. So, therefore, you can create them, but you have to be intelligent, you have to… It is just like, someone who is good at cooking can create preparations because they know how to combine things, they know the nature of all the elements. So if you know the feminine nature, you can create the environments and it will be wonderful. So that is what we are talking about. We are not saying that they shouldn’t be giving and this and that. You just have to know the context of what you are dealing with. Women are women and men are men, and they are very different.
Means the man, he has disciples, the disciples go away, it is not nice but, you know, it is a formal element. If a woman has disciples, they go away, she will take it personally, she will be devastated. Now, and of those disciples that go away, a lot of them speak bad about you. The man, it’s just they got tough skin, the women – it will completely destroy them. These are elements of reality. (..)
Prabhu (1): Getting back to, you know, giving Bhāgavatam class, okay, you basically said that it is alright for women to give class if men want to attend…
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes.
Prabhu (1): …if men want to put themselves in a submissive position to hear the Bhāgavatam from a female.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Right.
Prabhu (1): So that’s okay?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: It’s fine. But the thing is…
Prabhu (1): It’s not a Vedic culture…
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Now, don’t spin this. We are talking here, we want to… We are talking Śāstra, not diplomacy.
Prabhu (1): I’m just asking it’s not in Vedic culture… It’s not against Vedic culture?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No. What is against Vedic culture is, let’s say, this public forum. Sitting here, the men are right here, right in your face. When Jāhnavā Devī speaks, this is all women, the men are in the back. In fact, there is a curtain there.
Prabhu (1): You can arrange that, that can be arranged.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: If you can arrange it like that, fine. What we are talking about is culture. What we are saying is, basing it on these things, saying we are not the body and it’s totally about the body – these are prāṇa-māyic approaches. They are not philosophical, they are not cultural, they are not religion. They are a total misunderstanding of actually the nature of God’s creation. You have to know how to do it.
Prabhu (1): So, why did Prabhupāda allow women to speak in front of large groups, even in front of his sannyāsīs?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: See, you have now, these are our people, but at the same time as you don’t have that relationship, the other ones are completely, you don’t know them. And what were they speaking? Were they speaking as the main speaker? Were they speaking as the main speaker?
Prabhu (1): They spoke over the heads of sannyāsīs.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, but Prabhupāda was sitting there.
Prabhu (1): That’s all right. He [Indistinct] also.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, but it’s, what was then… Why did Prabhupāda say he did that? What did he tell Dāmodara Mahārāja?
Prabhu (1): I don’t know.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: He told him that our women can say this, so, what can our sannyāsīs speak? He was pointing, that’s why when that big paṇḍita was there, and he [Prabhupāda] said, “Who is God?” And he [paṇḍita] said, “Oh, well, that as a very difficult question.” He [Prabhupāda] called over an eight-year-old boy, “Who is God?” He said, ” Kṛṣṇa,” he [Prabhupāda] said, “Even he knows.” So, you have to know the techniques that are being used. It is a matter of, in a paṇḍāla program, when you are doing that, then you have your lead speaker and everybody else speaks beforehand. So, you would notice, the women would speak, then after that, then you would have senior men, then sannyāsīs, then Prabhupāda. So, they were following a hierarchy. So…
Prabhu (1): That’s all right.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. We don’t have problems with that, but the point is, they weren’t giving… Basically, here is Prabhupāda is showing that even a living entity who can in normal society… Because who is sitting in front of them? The ladies there sitting in front of them, they are there because of religious elements, it is pious, it is nice, but here these women were speaking spiritual. So, he is showing that women can go beyond, even despite the position. That is why the Śāstra says these things. Right? It points it out there.
But the point is, even though we may say the women, the śūdra, the friends of the twice born, these, they tend to get distracted very easily. But worse than that is the man who is attached to them. Because distraction is one thing, getting distracted by what creates distraction, now, that is worse. So, there is always a balance in the Vedic. Whatever is the weakness in one, it is the strength, they have a strength that is the opposite. You know, it is just like for men, Pṛthu Mahārāja says, men have to learn sense control and sensitivity. Women always control the senses. It is never about doing, it has to get a particular result. So, they can not eat or not do something when men would just, “Hey,” just go ahead and eat. A woman is upset, she doesn’t eat. And being sensitive, she is always sensitive. Now, women, then it is a matter of chastity and being satisfied. Men tend to be a little focused and then get into something and they got it, it’s good enough. I got the diner, I got my seat in the diner, I got my cup of coffee, I got my donut, and he has been doing it for 20 years. Woman could do that for three days. Probably she wouldn’t even walk into that diner, so, you know, it might even be less. So, you have the elements of just knowing where each one’s strength is and where it is in the men, that is where it is weak in the women, and where it is weak in the men, that’s where it is strong in the woman. Because, like, let’s say, the man gets attracted by sense gratification, his brain stops working. He only works on the sensual platform. But for the women, the sensual, the emotional, and the intellectual always work simultaneously, so it is the woman who will say, “This is not good.” She will come up with the first thing that we should, “You know, maybe we should break this off.”
So that is the thing, is each has their strength, each has their weaknesses, so you have to play to those and create the environments in which it can be done. It is not a problem to do it, it is a problem of if we do it based on the modern principles of social standards, then that for us is useless. But if we are basing it on actual Kṛṣṇa conscious principles with the culture, then it is fine. Like that. So it is just a matter of thinking it out more to make it actually realizable. That is the thing. Does that make sense?
Prabhu (1): That’s good. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure it wasn’t a Vedic… I had the impression that the person who was speaking said that it was not cultural.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: It is not cultural by the presentation that is being made by the modernistic, feministic movement, because it is just a modernistic movement. It is not based on actually the soul or on all these things. It is based totally on that they are their body. So that is just prāṇa-maya. And those kind of things have been there forever – the Amazons, how many thousands of years old are the Amazons? So it has always been there, these kind of things, you have always had this kind of nature. It is not new. It is brought out as that it is the new enlightened thing. No, they have always been there. So that kind of attitude is not what we are interested in, because then it is about them and their body and their needs, and it is not about what is duty. Because the point is, what is duty? Okay, what is the woman’s duty? You have the Kṛṣṇa conscious element, but you have a conditioning through which you have to express it. Just like the man, he wants to be married, so he has duties that go with it. So, he expresses his Kṛṣṇa consciousness through the marriage āśrama.
Prabhu (1): But don’t the women also have a duty to preach?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, but then you have to have the place where they will do well preaching, where there is a sense of control.
Prabhu (1): So they only should preach to women? Is that what you are saying?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, you have to preach to environments where you have control. But you have to know, it is emotional control. Just like this. You want to have a good fun here? Okay, go back. What were some of the complaints about the Zonal ācāryas back in the 1980s? You know, since you like this area. Okay, was there an element that there was the sense of that “these are my disciples, I can do with them as I want.” Right? Yeah.
Prabhu (1): There were hundreds of problems.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, but these are the bigger ones. Right? And about that if they said something, then it is authority. And then the disciples saying, they are the pure devotees, everyone else is a schmuck. You know, like that. Okay? Now, if a woman is there, just that same principle would be there, increase it by ten. You tell those big guys one on one, they don’t care. You get a whole room of, you get the GBC there and sit them down and tell them, then they go, “Okay.” But now the thing is, is, how is that going to work with a woman? She is, if in a group, she has to be the center of attention, she has to be the consideration. How are you going to tell her? Where is your emotional commitment? Where are you going to take care? So why should she listen? The disciples are going to say, “She spoke this,” and then now if you say, “No, but she is doing wrong,” “Oh, this is a feminist thing.” Right? One is getting into serious danger here because of the cultural elements, like that. Now, the Śāstra does say, if they are liberated, then they can do this.
Prabhu (1): Comment?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, please.
Prabhu (1): Considering what the, you know, the women in our society have undergone or taken up or dealt with and tolerated for so many years, it would seem that they are not on a very strong feminist platform. They are basically just humble devotees trying to assert their right to preach.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, yes, yes. But the point is, it’s still one social wrong isn’t corrected by another social wrong. If the men behave badly, it’s not by the women behaving badly that it makes it all right. Just like, let’s say, give an example. In Belgium, then generally it is like the men stand on the Deity’s right and the women on the Deity’s left because that is how the energies work. Right? Rādhārāṇī is on the left and the women are, it is just standard in all the temples in India. But the door was on the men’s side, so the women had a little problem getting through to the other side. But they could get through. But then sometimes, you know, it was a little difficult. So then they, for this festival, switched it. And then one lady was leading the kīrtana, the ladies were all fired up, now they are on that side; it was impossible to get past because they are the women. Why are you coming in here? The men, “Oh, you’re trying to get through because you’re a man.” See, if you work it on this man-woman principle, on the mundane, this element of equality, then the women are always better at it. There is no sense of equality here, it is a matter of the women already have 90%. They want half of the 10% that is left. There is no question that we are dealing with 50-50 here. They don’t work on 50-50. It has to be majority. I mean, it’s like, what is the split in LA? It’s 70-30. Other places that work it out at 50-50. But in LA, where the women have a stronger say, it’s 70-30. (..)
Why is it always American? Why not European? Why not European? I have seen that, I was at the farm once in Hungary, and because coming regularly, I noticed this one guy, there was a couple, and I noticed this one guy, he was there for like two weeks. I said, “How is this working?” He says, “No, my wife works out, she takes care of everything at home, I come for two weeks. And then the next festival, she comes for two weeks and I do.” They can do these things. Somehow Americans can’t. They have trouble. It is just accepted, like in China, it’s like martial arts – it doesn’t matter if you are a man or a woman, but how they move and all that, there is masculine and feminine elements. You go into the Chinese house, whoever comes home first cooks dinner. So if the husband was later at work, then the wife comes home first, she cooks dinner. If he came home first, he cooks dinner. They don’t make these kind of distinctions. We make these distinctions. Like they can wear the same clothes, everything. But the acceptance that there is a difference in the mentality of men and women is very strong, very clear. So that is the difference, is that we are trying to create equality by not recognizing the difference. It is unscientific, it will never work, it can’t be done. You have to recognize the difference, you have to recognize the natures, then you apply it, then you can get what you are looking for. All I am saying is you have to go about the solution from the platform of ānanda-maya. You can’t use it as a tool to establish prāṇa-maya. That’s my point. Because prāṇa-maya is political. Mano-maya is religious principles. Vijñāna-maya is actually the nature of the soul. Ānanda-maya means it pleases Kṛṣṇa. So you have to use, and with each one comes its culture. So what I am saying is, you have to use the culture of that highest culture and then apply it. Because we see in the Lord’s pastimes, how do the women position themselves? I will give you another story.
Gargī, who is one of the ones that is quoted as she was liberated, and in the Vedānta Sūtra then Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa when he is talking about an ekāyana-bhakta or an uttama-bhakta, he quotes her. Now, she was at a program by Janaka Muni, or Janaka Ṛṣi, means the king. And, you know, you have a yajña, and so you have sages and they are all talking. So now, it came up as, “Well who knows the Śāstras the best? Who knows everything? Who can answer all questions?” So then with some time very quickly it became obvious that Viśvāmitra was stronger. Anybody would stand up, bring in any śāstra, any technical point, he knew it. This yajña and this thing, what spoon and then this and how big, anything. He could deal with it, and everybody was impressed. Then when no one had any questions, then the king said, “Well, is there no one else? So is he the man? Is no one else going to step forward and establish? So is he the man?” Then Gargī said, “I have a question.” So then she stood up. And then in standing up, then she asked him about spiritual subject matter, which he didn’t know anything about. And he started to become very disturbed, very upset. And as soon as she saw he was getting upset, she immediately announced to the crowd that Viśvāmitra is the greatest scholar here, even though technically she was. But as far as the social, then it is there.
So there are social, it is just how it works. The woman is right when she is telling the man he is an idiot, but he really doesn’t appreciate it, really just doesn’t appreciate it. But it is true. You know, so therefore what do you want? Can’t you say it nicely? Can’t you say that? You are a woman, can’t you do it? So everybody is looking for women to be women and men to be men. Men haven’t been men, therefore the women are grumbling. So if you want to solve the problem you have to get men to become men and then make arrangements that women can be women. And then everybody can do all that connected to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhu (1): So that pretty much proves my point, that Gargī was able to speak in front of the assembly.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, but when did she speak? Did she speak first or last? She only spoke when no one else wanted to speak.
Prabhu (1): Oh, that’s alright.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: But this is what I am talking about. This is culture.
Prabhu (1): Well, in the culture should be an allowance, as you said…
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, the culture should be culture. It’s not a matter of a rule. It is there because as soon as you do this “Oh, it is okay,” but the culture will be left. Why? Because we are coming from a place that has no culture. Right? What culture is there in America except for European? And that is old school and that is based on religion. Good Christian, you know, agreed Christian, that’s all that there is in American culture. There isn’t anything else. They can’t claim anything else unless you want to claim the cowboys or something. That’s, you know, that’s down home, that’s local. Like that. Even the…What are the guys on the stilts? You know, the Creoles and all those in the Bayou? Even that has that French element, their cooking is French and African, it is not really American. So, there is not a lot there, so whatever is there is coming from the old world. And so then if we don’t go back… And that’s, as we said, coming from religion. So, culture comes from religion. So we can’t say, “Oh, the śāstra, this or that’s not, this or that,” or doubt the Śāstra, doubt Prabhupāda, and then come up with a solution – it won’t work. Solutions come because Kṛṣṇa is kind and gives them to you. You can’t work it out with your own brains, with our own management, with our own money; it has to be Kṛṣṇa’s revelation. So only if you are trying to please Him by doing it how He likes it done, then He will show wonderful ways to get it done. So, yeah. Okay. No, it’s late. You want to say something?
Prabhu (2): I missed it… [Indistinct] Śrīla Prabhupāda…
HH BVPS Mahārāja: He was talking about, because it came up, why are the ladies talking at the Pāṇḍāla? And he is saying that it shows that our women know the philosophy. But, that being said, they didn’t give class in the temples. They didn’t stand next to Prabhupāda and wave the cāmara.
Prabhu (1): They did give class in the temples.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: I never saw it here. I have been here 40 years.
Prabhu (1): In Europe they did. Well, not here.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Ahh, that’s there. Europe is a different thing. So therefore, then if we are going to do the Western things, do them in the West and do the Indian things here. So when people come here, wear a dhoti. When you go to West, wear your jeans.
Prabhu (1): How do you explain that the current culture, there was a prime minister here, there was a woman that Prabhupāda had to go and speak to.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: That’s another thing. Those aren’t Indians. Those aren’t Indians. Those aren’t Indians. Those are Brits. They are not Indians.
Prabhu (1): [Laughter] So the Bengalis are Vedic and the people in Calcutta are not Vedic?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, what Prabhupāda and the Ācāryas give, that is Vedic. We have to know where to look for it. That is the point of swanning – you have to know where to look and take that and leave the rest. So you have to be educated in it. Then you can see it. So that is why Prabhupāda put so much emphasis on education. We put so much emphasis on money and management. It should be on education. Then the leadership will know how to run things. It is very, very simple. Because it is not just because you are in the position that gives you the authority, it has to come down through the paramparā that you are speaking on what the Śāstra says.
You know, it is a GBC rule that a GBC man is supposed to be, I think, to be a Bhaktivedānta. They have the degree. I was there in the meeting when they established that. Sannyāsīs are supposed to be Bhakti-vaibhava. Any second initiated devotee is supposed to be Bhakti-śāstrī. So, gurus and the GBC are supposed to be Bhaktivedāntas. But education, except for Satsvarūpa and Bhūrijana, who really saw that education was important? Who really worked to establish it? You know, otherwise, Prabhupāda said, every temple is supposed to be the center of education. It is the last thing – it’s a center of collection, it’s a center of all kinds of things, but not education. A few, but it is individual, it is not universal.
So that is the point. The cultural elements, the educational elements, these aren’t… We don’t… It’s not that devotees are neglecting them on purpose; they don’t know they are there to follow, that’s the point. So they are engaging their nature in Kṛṣṇa’s service, but if they were more educated, they could engage more, they could do more. Like that. That is the thing, they could do so much more. Because then, if we see earlier, there is one letter where Prabhupāda is talking about management. And the first thing he is talking about, besides being everything has to be done for Kṛṣṇa, the next thing is that they have to be able to understand someone’s nature according to Varṇāśrama. Otherwise, how do you engage them? It is immediate next points. And then he goes on to elaborate on that. So these things are… These points get missed. So it is just a matter of, okay, the temple is doing this service, everybody has got to do that, rather than, “Okay, we have a temple. We could do so many things. We have persons to do these – let’s do those things. Okay, I had that five years now from now, I was going to, let’s say, open a restaurant, but I got a guy who’s a professional chef just joined.” Why not open a restaurant now? They don’t do those things. Right? So then they go away. And then they have this huge community. And now, after 30 years, we decide, “Okay, maybe we should listen to the community since no one else is joining.” You know? Like that.
So the whole idea is, you can avoid all these things if one has the knowledge of the culture and how it works. Then you would see, yes, that so many things have to be addressed. Then people can be as happy as it gets here. I mean, we can never really be happy here, but you can get a little bit more happy. [Laughter] That’s all.


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