BVMS_BVPS
H.H. Bhakti Viśrambha Mādhava Mahārāja and H.H. Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Mahārāja. Place and author unknown, if you know, please tell us.

Prabhu: For a devotee, is astrology important, and if yes, how much importance should we give to the astrology?

His Holiness Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Mahārāja: First, we should be very clear that activity is performed in a particular environment, situation. Like we are in this temple room, that’s the situation, then you perform an activity within that. Do you understand the difference? Environments and activities that are performed in that environment. So, you have a street corner in a busy city. Someone is walking through that street there, he is going to work. Someone else is going to go meet their boyfriend. Somebody else is just drunk and they don’t know what corner they are, and they just happen to be walking through there. And then, there is a devotee standing there, selling books. So can we tell the difference between the situation and the activity, the free will in that activity we do? Yes? No? Okay.

Astrology can define what situations will be there, okay? It can’t tell you what you are going to do in that situation. That’s your free will. So, by understanding the situation, astrology can give some light on that, that will be some benefit, it’s useful. But if not, it’s not useful. Do you understand? It defines situations, not what you are going to do with them. So if we have this idea that astrology will tell me what to do, it won’t, it will just tell you the situations. So it’s not important if through astrology you understand the situation, or you are there in the situation and you figure it out, it doesn’t matter. The point is is, do you connect that situation to Kṛṣṇa or not, that’s all. In other words, through the known you try to understand the unknown. Through śāstra that’s known, you try to understand what you don’t know. In applying it through the senses, you can see what’s known, you understand what should be done, which is unknown. But the point is is that that unknown should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa’s service. Does that make sense?

Prabhu: Just to make it clear, if we use astrology just to seek guidance…

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Seek guidance in what?

Prabhu: Guidance to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: How does astrology tell you how to be Kṛṣṇa conscious? No, it will tell you what the situation is, it doesn’t tell you how to make that situation Kṛṣṇa conscious. What defines how to be Kṛṣṇa conscious in any situation, that’s called Bhagavad-gītā. That’s parā-vidyā, or transcendental knowledge. Jyotiṣa is material knowledge. If it is connected to Kṛṣṇa, it becomes aparā-vidyā, or dovetailed knowledge. It’s not dovetailed in Kṛṣṇa’s service, then it’s called avidyā, or ignorance, material knowledge. So astrology is not going to tell you what to do. It’s going to tell you the situations that you’ll be in. What you do with that, you have to read Bhagavad-gītā. Vyāsadeva says in his 100 verses describing 100 types of fools, one of the fools he describes is that person that bases their life on astrology.

Prabhu: Mahārāja, but in another sense, astrologers advice something to do, to counteract some bad things. They not only describe the situation, but give some advice on how to resolve things.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: But what will you make an adjustment in? What will be adjusted? You have a bad situation, they say, okay, do this Mṛtyuñjaya-homa, what will it adjust?

Prabhu: Let’s say…

HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, no, not let’s say, just give a direct answer, what will it adjust?

Prabhu: Maybe I should…

HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, no, no, what will it adjust? The situation is bad, you do this homa, what will it do? It will correct the situation. It’s still you are left with the situation, what are you gonna do with that situation for Kṛṣṇa? That no astrologer is going to tell you.

Prabhu: Not about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but…

HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, but they’ll just tell you how to adjust the situation. It’s like this, you have a kitchen. And somebody comes in and says, “Oh, hey, over here, you don’t have enough pots, you get some more pots, then there’ll be a nicer kitchen.” So now you have a nicer kitchen, so what? You still don’t know how to cook. [Everyone laughing] You still don’t know how to cook. So that’s the point is, that’s why Vyāsadeva said you are a fool. Because you think, if I adjust the situation, now everything is perfect. Does that make sense?

The point is, is we have to distinguish between situations and what you do with the situation. Because once you have the better kitchen, now what? The point is is, when the kitchen wasn’t so good, you cooked for Kṛṣṇa, when the kitchen is better, you cook for Kṛṣṇa. But if you were not cooking for Kṛṣṇa before, there is a good chance you won’t be cooking after it’s better.

HH Bhakti Viśrambha Mādhava Mahārāja: One comment on the astrology-kathā. A devotee tries to see everything as an arrangement of Kṛṣṇa. One devotee astrologer put it this way. That it’s like a blueprint, the construction blueprint of a devotee’s life. So like Mahārāja says, it predicts the situation. It is up to the devotee to take that situation and use it favorably for Kṛṣṇa or not. Sometimes Kṛṣṇa even uses a devotee’s karma as an agent for change. There was a Godbrother of mine that was really an avadhūta. And he left in Vṛndāvana on Varūthinī Ekādaśī a few years ago. Now, everybody sees their Godbrother, Godsister as a relative die. He would leave on Ekādaśi, and on Varūthinī, you are liberated. So the argument of using astrology for Kṛṣṇa is like anything, using anything for Kṛṣṇa. We just take it a science, we are looking at it, it describes the situation. Now, you could use it for Kṛṣṇa, to your advantage, to serve Kṛṣṇa or make it not happen that way. Just like retirement and death is there for everybody.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Nothing is certain except death and taxes.

HH BVMS Mahārāja: So in any case, so one devotee astrologer, sannyāsī, friend of mine, he said, “This period, the period of twenty years from now, it will be a very good period for you to renounce everything and do nirjana-bhajana, very good time. Wow, that’s really nice, I would like to do that,” he said. The reality is, I am already so disturbed in the lifestyle and difficulties, that I am ready to give it up ten years before that. [Laughter] Of course, I am going to do meet him later on, in the south Russian festival. So I want to present him the new idea, my idea is that I am should give it up ten years earlier. [Laughter] He’ll tell me whether that situation is auspicious or not. The reality is, by the time I get there, maybe we’ll want to grab a tape, you wanna practice ten years of gravitating towards renonciation, toward retiring. But maybe our followers, maybe our friends, maybe people won’t let you retire, that’s another thing.

So like Mahāraja was saying, it’s a situation. Now, whether it’s gonna happen or not, we can gravitate that direction, try to use it favorably for Kṛṣṇa. But it’s up to Kṛṣṇa whether it will happen or not. We use it as an idea, rough idea. But the plan is probably in Kṛṣṇa’s hands. We may decide to do something, but circumstances and Kṛṣṇa’s will may dictate differently, and you are forced to something differently. We use the science, but our argument is whether it’s favorable for Kṛṣṇa. And we use the astrology or any science as to help that. But like Prabhupāda was saying, when the astrologers were predicting about his departure and when there was a whole this and that, Prabhupāda said, “Ok, none of these astrologers can do anything, we are just going to use caranāmṛta and Harināma, forget about that.” [Laughter] It was funny.

I was talking to one devotee astrologer about departure. And he laughed, he said he went to some Bhṛgu Saṁhitī śāstra walas. And before they met him, they had predicted 5 peoples’ death. When he asked them, they looked at him, and they laughed, they said, “Oh, come on, you are a sādhu, Bābā, all your life is in Kṛṣṇa’s hands, we can’t say anything.”

From Questions and Answers with HH Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Svāmī Mahārāja and HH Bhakti Viśrambha Mādhava Maharāja, Baltic Summer Festival, 25 July 2011

HH BVPS Mahārāja: The result of your previous consciousness comes to you now, that’s called karma, or pre-destiny. But what you do with it now in your consciousness, that’s your free will. And that creates your further karma. So now, you do Kṛṣṇa-karma, you get out of the material world, it dissolves material entanglement. And if you don’t, then it entangles you. Does that make sense?

Mātājī: I was thinking like that sometimes planetary period affects our consciousness, to make us more conscious…

HH BVPS Mahārāja: That’s because we allow it. Makes you conscious, it’s not going to change the planet. See, the thing is is what you have to get down to, the bottom line comes is, how you consider success in spiritual life? Is that everything goes materially perfect for you? You changed the result of the planet, or you changed your consciousness?

Prabhu: Īśvaro’ ham ahaṁ bhogī… [Bhagavad-gītā 16.14]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. That’s the thing. This planet is giving me bad result, so I’ll change that and I’ll get a good result. Then we’ll consider that good religion. But the point is is whether it’s bad or good, it’s what is our consciousness? Let’s say, you go into the kitchen and you have rice and potatoes, ok. What will you do with it? What if you go in and you have rice and milk? So, is there anything wrong with either of those? No, that’s the point. So an expert cook goes in, and someone who is not an expert cook will go,”What I am going to do, there is only rice and potatoes, only rice and milk, I can’t make anything.” Because they already have a plan, “I am going to cook this, this, this,” they walk in the kitchen, none of it is there, and then that’s it, no cooking. No. Expert cook walks in, ok, they don’t say, “I am going to cook this”, they have an idea to cook this, but let’s go see the reality, what’s in the kitchen. Then they walk into the kitchen, look around, what pots, what things, this, that, then they’ll say, “Ok, with this situation and these facilities, these ingredients, I can cook this.” And everybody will say it’s nice.

So that’s actually what you have. You are not going to change the planets, because the planets are how the three modes just perform their duties. Māyā, she doesn’t sit there personally and do it. She gets the planets to do it. So the planets, they do all her work. So it’s not that you need to change what they are doing. You need to change your consciousness, that’s the whole point.

So each planet, because all those qualities are coming from the Lord, means the modes are coming from the Lord, so the planets execute those modes in various combinations. So therefore, coming from the Lord, they have all good qualities. But if they are used not properly, they have bad qualities. So because we want to hang on to everything, therefore we consider Saturn bad, because he takes things away. But Saturn is a devotee. What is he taking away? Has there ever been an astrologer mentioning that Saturn will take away your spiritual development? Never. They say, he will take away your material facilities, your position, your fame, that he’ll do. So now, is that good or bad? So that depends upon you. You can decide this is bad. Or you can go, ok, then we will use it to become humble, because devotees are humble. Saturn is a devotee. Out of the nine planets, he is the only one known as a devotee. Others are devotees, but they are not known as devotees, he is known as a devotee.

So that’s the point. You have control over what you do with the situation that the planets create. You don’t have control over the planets. So that’s the whole point, you don’t try to control the planets, you try to control your consciousness, so whatever happens, then it goes nice.

Prabhu: The living entities in the mode of ignorance appear to have no choice. In the mode of passion at least you doubt, “Am I doing the right thing?” But if you are deep in the mode of tamas, you don’t have any choice, you have to act.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, it’s always there. Means, in ignorance, but you have made that conscious choice to choose the path of ignorance, so then the result is that one becomes more and more ignorant and more and more unaware. But as you become more ignorant, then the results and dealings with you become more severe. The more you are in goodness, then it only takes a very slight thing. Just like if you have a group of persons who are worked together and are well trained. Simply a glance gets the work done. But people who are untrained and unwilling, then you may have to raise your voice, you may have to do so many different things that will be considered more harsh. Like the bull, it moves through the field and plows the field, it’s not by sweet words. They have methods that if the bull is willing, then a few noises and all that. But when they are unwilling, then they have to be a little bit… you have to make it obvious. So that’s the point, someone in the mode of ignorance, it has to be made really obvious that this is not right. So that’s why we see in the Vedic literature that for things that are done wrong then the results are quite strong. So those situated in ignorance it will be stronger than those in goodness.

Prabhu: The three kleśas will become stronger?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, the three kleśas, they will become stronger, the adhidaivika, adhibhautika, adhyātmika, they will just become stronger, because you don’t respond. It’s just like someone was telling me, I think the Massai in Africa, because their whole lifestyle is based on the cows, six weeks before a cow will manifest a disease, they can already tell the symptoms that they are gonna get this disease after six weeks. So already six weeks before they are taking care, whatever it needs to be that they never even get sick. So they never treat the cow after it’s sick, they always treat it, so it doesn’t get sick. So that’s subtle. So you can tell the symptoms of, oh, this is gonna result in that later. So then your difficulties are less. Or even if there are difficulties, they don’t bother you, because you are not dealing with so much ego and desire and frustration, and all that, so it’s whatever happens, it’s not a problem.

Like Yudhiṣṭhira personally has no problem being in the forest. But he has a problem, because his dependents are in anxiety, therefore he would like something to make that situation better. Because Bhīma and Draupadī especially are not overly pleased with the arrangements. And besides that, because they are kṣatriyas, they should be able to perform their duties of protecting the people. In the forest you can do it, protect the sages that are out there, but that’s it. His abilities are more, so he should be fully engaged, but since he can’t do that, then he sits all day with the brāhmanas and just hears philosophy and discussions, they perform their sādhana, do what they can do, worship and serve the brāhmanas. So they use it to advantage.

Prabhu: Some say that since the gems are controlled by the planets, the astrologer may give you a particular gemstone to somehow pacify the influence of that planet.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Basically what’s happening is, by that gemstone you become more conscious. And if you become more conscious, then you are less affected by the effect. That would be the ultimate what’s going on. Because technically it’s very hard to… The result is coming to you as your karma, so basically what you can change is what you do with it. That’s what you can deal with. So even if you are dealing with a change there, you are dealing with the change that, ok, you’ve previously done an activity that gets you a result. That planet, now whichever planet is in charge of that result is going to give that to you. Now, because you had a particular consciousness in performing that activity to get that result, it’s going to be a natural continuance of that consciousness and how you are gonna deal with the result that you have now attained. So by that gemstone you could possibly change that, that you are not going to react to it in a way you normally would as the modes of nature would have it. So can affect that.

But the point is is that the scriptures, as Prabhupāda is pointing out in the purport, is trying to get you to follow the scriptures. We mentioned that you have the five vargas, so four are those who are trying to follow the scriptures and one is those that aren’t. So the scriptures are always trying to get you to follow, by one method or another. Either by bhakti, by liberation, by future enjoyment or by today’s enjoyment. So some method is there to get you inspired. So that you will consider the planets, know that the planets are there, know that the planets are actually the Lord’s instruments for carrying out your karma, your desires, that they have particular natures, that has to be respected. So therefore you have these stones, you have these different things. Then it works, it brings you to a higher level of consciousness, makes you more conscious, makes you more understand you are not the controller, you are just part of the whole scene. Then it does something, but it just depends upon what level you want to deal at it with. What is your purpose? So that’s the thing, you could be wearing that gemstone basically for four different reasons: because you want to remove the obstacle for performing your devotion, or you want to remove your obstacle for liberation, or for getting to the heavenly planets, or for enjoying. So that’s what you have to deal with.

So if it is connected, that’s the point, any occupation done to please the Lord then is considered useful. Any occupation done not to please the Lord, even though it’s perfectly right according to the scriptures, the scriptures themselves say is useless. Because the following of the scriptures are only there to take you back to Godhead, they are not there for any other purpose. So if you go back to Godhead, then the scriptures consider their duties as perfect. You have to remember that all people in Brahmā’s court, Śrīmad Bhāgavatam personified sits there, so does the Gītā, so do the Vedānta-sūtras, the Upaniṣads, the Brāhmanas, the Āranyakas, everything, they are all there in personified form. And they discuss the philosophy, because they take a particular angle, so that’s what they do all day, they just discuss amongst each other. And then after everybody has said whatever they say, then Śrīmad Bhāgavatam gives a conclusion. So this is what’s going on, so they’ll consider your following of the scriptures as useful if you went back to Godhead, if you don’t, they don’t consider it.

So it’s not just our, ok, we like to look at it, maybe works this way, maybe not, no, it works in a particular way, doesn’t work in another way. It’s due to ignorance that we think that there is an option other than the scriptures, it’s just ignorance, it’s just the “pavargites”. They think there is an option other than the scriptures for getting anything done. So that’s the difficulty. So they work hard, they observe the material energy, those with brains. They see patterns, and then they make theories based on those patterns, and then try to apply those theories into their daily life. And many times they work, because they have observed peoples’ day-to-day life, but many times they don’t, because you are dealing with the bigger realm of karma, the three modes. So one person, he was in this situation, did this activity, he got a good result, because his karma was such. Another person, same activity, didn’t, doesn’t have good karma, he doesn’t get the result. Therefore then someone else comes up with a new theory how to apply it by their observation, because he didn’t take into consideration these three situations, and adding that then we see we get more. But then it may work there, but it still doesn’t work in another area. So this way they go on and on speculating eternally. And then by that time they die, and just a little bit if they publish, then it goes on, they didn’t, it disappears, or it merges into someone else’s theory, like this, and this goes around and around and around and around.

So the whole point is to follow that. So then you can take that level, if the jewel works there. Someone will take another, they will use kavacas. Then someone will just go, just depend on the Lord. So like that, you choose what is best for your situation. But know, that is not because you went down to the shop and you ordered the ring, and now you are in control of the planet. [Everyone laughing] That’s not exactly… doesn’t quite work like that.

Prabhu: They say that mantra is more powerful, because it involves our activities, engagement of consciousness, rather than just physical like the jewel.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: He is saying, mantra is more powerful, because it actually engages us. The jewel, we don’t do anything other than we went out and buy it, or we wear it. Otherwise it’s forgotten. But mantra then is more powerful, because then we are actually engaged, so then it focuses the consciousness. Mantra, herbs and jewels, they are all coming from the Lord.

Prabhu: The Garuḍa Purāṇa says, also Mārkaṇdeya Purāṇa, that if someone wants the benefit from a planet, he needs the three, mantra, the stone, because it’s not material, it’s bringing the rays, the subtle, and it affects the consciousness that’s in the chakras. And then, charity, to be very charitable, because mainly it’s for gṛhasthas. Brahmacārī, sannyāsī, they don’t need anything. But gṛhasthas, they need to be very charitable, so the planet affects, maybe it’s pleased. But mantra is everything for a devotee.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: It is said that one who chants mantra, then they know the whole scripture, they know everything, that’s the best. So if one’s ultimate goal is this, then one has to decide. Because he is saying, bringing out another technical point, is that the rays that are brought by that stone, depending on the quality of the stone and therefore, then it will affect the cakras, when the cakras are more purified, then it makes it easier for the consciousness. At the same time is, just by chanting you can do the same thing, because it’s more powerful.

We see that Prabhupāda, as an example, in Vṛndāvana, the very last days, in the last month. Then devotees mentioned about that if you wore blue sapphire, that would be good for his health. So he said, Prabhupāda said, “Yeah, you can try.” [Everyone laughting] So he wore it. Because it will only have effect on his body and makes the cakras spin a little better, something, great. But as far as consciousness, doesn’t have any importance there. Especially because the astrologers that confirmed which gem he should wear already said, “According to this person’s chart, he already would have died years ago, so he is only alive by his own mystic potency.” So it’s like, “Try it, we don’t know!” [Everyone laughting] “Main thing is, this person is in his own category.”

From Discussion after Lecture on Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.2.9, 28 December 2003, Śrī Māyāpura Dhāma

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