TRANSCRIPTION
HH Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Mahārāja: [Sings Jaya Rādhā-Mādhava] [Hare Kṛṣṇa kīrtana] [prema-dhvani]
oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Reading from Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.11.32: [Mahārāja and devotees repeat] [chanting of the verse]
tam ātmajair dṛṣṭibhir antarātmanā
duranta-bhāvāḥ parirebhire patim
niruddham apy āsravad ambu netrayor
vilajjatīnāṁ bhṛgu-varya vaiklavāt
Synonyms
tam — Him (the Lord); ātma-jaiḥ — by the sons; dṛṣṭibhiḥ — by the sight; antara-ātmanā — by the innermost part of the heart; duranta-bhāvāḥ — insuperable ecstasy; parirebhire — embraced; patim — husband; niruddham — choked up; api — in spite of; āsravat — tears; ambu — like drops of water; netrayoḥ — from the eyes; vilajjatīnām — of those situated in shyness; bhṛgu-varya — O chief of the Bhṛgus; vaiklavāt — inadvertently.
Translation
The insuperable ecstasy was so strong that the queens, who were shy, first embraced the Lord in the innermost recesses of their hearts. Then they embraced Him visually, and then they sent their sons to embrace Him [which is equal to personal embracing]. But, O chief amongst the Bhṛgus, though they tried to restrain their feelings, they inadvertently shed tears.
Purport
Although due to feminine shyness there were many hindrances to embracing the dear husband, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the queens performed that act by seeing Him, by putting Him in the cores of their hearts, and by sending their sons to embrace Him. Still, the act remained unfinished, and tears rolled down their cheeks despite all endeavors to check them. One indirectly embraces the husband by sending the son to embrace him because the son is developed as part of the mother’s body. The embrace of the son is not exactly the embrace of husband and wife from the sexual point of view, but the embrace is satisfaction from the affectionate point of view. The embrace of the eyes is more effective in the conjugal relation, and thus according to Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī there is nothing wrong in such an exchange of feeling between husband and wife.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: [to the side] What is the word?
Prabhu (1): The ecstasies.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: The ecstasy?
Prabhu (1): The first one.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: What's the voice?
Prabhu (1): [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, so here is then discussion on transcendental ecstasy. That we see here is that then it is manifest to the queens. So much of the time we see the queens will be discussed, or previously then the women of Dvārakā on the roofs and their happiness what they were feeling. All these different... much of the time we see is ladies: Draupadī, Kuntī. Simply because there then the emotions, then they are so... How you say? Forceful, more obvious, very forceful, and the nature especially in this connection then the conjugal rasa because it is containing all the other rasas, then is the most inclusive. So, you are going to give an example, then you always give an example that is going to be... have the broadest application. So then... Then in this case then we see that the rasa here that has more of a full application to all situations because in it, it contains all elements of rasa.
So here then, it is being brought out that this insuperable ecstasy... One is we must appreciate here is Prabhupāda is coining a word. So he creates words. It was interesting, I was reading that English used to do this. Nowadays, people aren't clever enough so you have to be given a word. Previously you had a root and then you create the word. But Prabhupāda is still clever enough. So this ecstasy is so strong, insuperable, it can't be gone beyond, there is not something beyond this platform. And so in this then so much shyness is there. Now, this is the interesting point, is that so much ecstasy, so much happiness is there, but it still manifests through shyness. Nowadays the idea is, is when you are happy, you show it, you bring it out, it goes, "Yes! Yes! Yes!" But according to śāstra, that is called a third-class man. First class is: something amazing happens, there may be a little smile. [Devotees laughing] Second class, in the very, "Hey, how, like this," just like that. Third class, then it is, "Yes! Aahhh!" roaring, all this stuff. And that's all you see nowadays, and that is considered to be normal. Yes, normal for third-class men. But Yudhiṣṭhira, he would win the gambling match, he would lose the gambling match, there would just be a slight smile or a slight feeling of dissatisfaction. That is first class, that is culture.
So we see here, so that is balance. Because otherwise if there is so much that way there must be so much the other way. Along with all the "Yes! Yes!" comes all the swearing and the unforgiveness and the feelings of justice and bitterness and all that. They go together, they are a package, right? If something amazing happens, there is just a little smile. If there is something un-amazing happens, there is just a little bit of feeling of "this is not so great." So this is what Kṛṣṇa s talking about in the Gītā, because one is not elated in happiness. That means there will be happiness, but you are not elated. And so, the opposite also: one is not disturbed when there is unhappiness. That is balanced. Because that is the whole point: if you can balance it, that is the meaning, it is the middle path. So that middle path is what is... That is devotional service: it is between karma and jñāna, it is the path that actually functions. So this is what is being brought out. Of course, this is the metaphysical aspect.
But here we see the point being made is that so much insuperable ecstasy is there and shyness can still be manifest. So this is the whole point, is one can feel all emotions to their fullest extent and follow the culture. This is being shown here. I mean, in our experience here, I don't necessarily speak for everybody, but like that is: can we say that our ecstasies or our pains are as great as in these pages? Right? We have met a friend or something, or been in a situation where our ecstasy was greater than this ecstasy of these queens? Or the pain that we felt and our sense of injustice was greater than Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja's losing the emperorship of the whole world, unlimited, unfathomable wealth and position out of pure cheating? Have we had an experience greater than that? Right? And if we think about it realistically. Poetically, yes, we can say, just like the man approaches the girl and says, "If you marry me I will be the happiest man in the world!" Right? But every man says that. So, you know, of course, poetically, we could say, "Yes, it is the same!" But in actuality, if we think about it, it is not. Because here they are dealing with very, very full emotions. Right? So, they are still able to maintain the culture. This is important.
Because otherwise, there is this modern idea that "No, you should show, you should let it out!" Yeah, you show, you let it out. But you have to know how to show it and let it out. Just like, yes, you have to cook. So, therefore, you have to cut the vegetables. So, get in there, cut the vegetables! Do it how you like! You know, but is it going to come out nice? No. It comes out nice because you go in there and very nicely, very carefully go in and cut it. It is controlled. All this show, this, that, that is great for three-year-olds, right? That is what three-year-olds, two-year-olds are known for: it is showing everything, doing everything, right? And then, and what do they call it? "Terrible twos", right? Three is my... When do they start becoming normal? Four, they start to become a little normal. Why? Because they start to become a little controlled, a little shy. Yes? No? Think about it!
So, that is the whole point. So, we are having a culture that we are being expected that we are supposed to act like two- and three-year-olds. But because we are mature adults and have adult false egos and everybody does it, then it is considered okay. Right? That is how modern social things work. If everybody does it, then it is normal. If one or two do it, it is strange. But that is all we are dealing with. We are not necessarily dealing with... We are dealing with maturity, you know, experience and all that, but we are not dealing with necessarily cultural development. So, this should always be considered that these are keys on how it actually functions and works. This is actually how it works. Right? You want to know how to get satisfaction in your life - this is how it works. It doesn't work in another way. You can try. So many have been trying, it hasn't worked for them, it won't work for you. I can say this boldly: try whatever you like, it will not work for you. Because it can't. Because God made it, not you, not anybody else. God made it, and this is the way God likes it. God likes to come home and have His women behave like this. That's why He made it like that. That's why He made the śāstras like that, that's why He made the culture like that. Because this is what a man is looking for. And this is what gives the full expression to all the woman's feelings.
See, three things are going on here at once. She is seeing the Lord and embracing Him in the heart. So you get the very emotional. Then, in the eyes, then is the physical, but it is still subtle. Then she sends the son, which is more gross, and it is based on relationship. Right? One could say, "No, no, but she will get more out of embracing herself." Okay, so then, what is more intimate? The embrace or the conception of a child? Right? Which is more intimate? Conception of a child. So, the child's manifestation is a manifestation of the utmost intimacy between the husband and wife. So, that child embraces the husband, that is the most intimate aspects of the woman's existence. Right? Of course, I will give a caveat here: we are discussing human society, like that. We are discussing human society and human standards. So, we see here, they are getting three things; plus, now they still have the opportunity when everything has calmed down, everybody has met and the formal situations are all done and that, and then in the evening, then when it is just the husband and wife alone, then she can physically embrace Him. So, she has gotten four things out of it. You name me what the modern woman gets out of it. And you add it up - one against four. And that one then is in public where she can't actually fully manifest her emotions. You cannot tell me, even the sleaziest woman in the world can embrace someone in public fully with all her full emotions, full heart, full giving everything. You can't. The lowest class woman still cannot get because she is still a woman. It can't happen. When she is alone, only then she can manifest.
So, now that means the modern woman doesn't even get the one. She gets a part. And now we are going to hear, we have to listen that the modern thing is going to fully satisfy us culturally, when it doesn't even get a part of one, whereas in the Vedic the woman gets full four. And the man gets full satisfaction also. So, that's why these are here. God made it this way, because that is the way He likes it. We have to remember, He is a man, and these goddesses of fortune are women. Right? And we have to remember, we are a bunch of women that have come here to the material world, that every one of us thinks we are a man. And then by the modes of nature, we have ended up, some of us have a male form, and some of us have a female form. So, male-female relationship is two men trying to lord it over each other, but one does it through the modes of nature that push in the feminine direction, and one does it through the modes that push in the masculine direction. So, unless there is some culture, it is not going to work. It can't work. And there is no one who can say otherwise because that is the way it is. If one says otherwise, it can only be said by someone who is in ignorance, who does not know what the material world is, does not know what the living entity is, does not know who God is, does not know what His pastimes are. So, we can see that... Yeah.
So then, such nice things are happening here. So, here it says, "The embrace of the eyes is more effectual in the conjugal relation, and thus according to Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī there is nothing wrong with such an exchange of feelings between husband and wife." So, here is the point. These are the feelings being desired, this is the method to get it. It is not wrong. But if one knows how to do it, then one gets the benefit. And if one doesn't know how to do it, one neither gets the benefit, nor does one get social peace. Right? It doesn't. Because one must always understand, one's own freedoms cannot impinge upon another's rights. No one has that right.
So, that is the problem. Previously, the Vedic is, is you drop one rock in the pond and you get so many concentric circles, and each of those circles are in harmony because they are perfectly in line with the center. That means Kṛṣṇa is the center of the closest, Kṛṣṇa is the center of the farthest. Therefore, there is no overlap. But the modern is, you throw in a handful of rocks and you get so many circles that all they do is bump into each other. And each one is trying to establish their right as the center or their right as the victim. And you can never have social harmony. Never in a million years. Why a million? Billion, trillions. Never in 311 trillion years. Right? [Laughter] It is not possible. So, this is the point. We can either take it from here, that these are the practical ways to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. The essence of this is that it is connected to Kṛṣṇa. And it is the exchange between Kṛṣṇa and His devotees. That is what's really going on here. But we as conditioned souls, because of the material needs, then the material needs are also fulfilled through the same method. Because Kṛṣṇa only wants people to actually act how they act in the spiritual world. That is what we are supposed to be doing. But we don't do that because of our self-centeredness, our control and enjoying mood. So, that has to be controlled and channeled, so it looks like the spiritual world and because of that you get as close as you can get. Because we are not enjoyers, we cannot be direct enjoyers. Only Kṛṣṇa can. He is male and He is it, there is only Him. He can directly enjoy. The female energy cannot directly enjoy. It enjoys through the connection with the male. That is the way it is. It is the way it is designed. So, if we accept this basic fundamental fact of just science, then everything can start to work for us. Therefore, our connection with Kṛṣṇa makes everything special. When Kṛṣṇa is in the center of whatever we do, everything becomes special. And if Kṛṣṇa is not in the center, there is only going to be unrest, there is only going to be dissatisfaction, there is only going to be fighting and everything. It cannot be otherwise.
So, that's why when you control yourself, you control your senses, then what you are looking for with your senses is available. When you control your emotions, what you are looking for in emotion is available. So, this doesn't make sense. Why doesn't it make sense? Because we are trying to think like a male. We are trying to think like God. But we are not God. We are energy. So, therefore, in connection with, then only you get your happiness. When Kṛṣṇa is pleased, we are pleased - that is the only way we are pleased. We cannot be separately pleased. So, that is the contradiction.
These queens here, the ecstasy they are feeling, they would love to just run over and embrace Kṛṣṇa. But they don't because of the shyness. That shyness is inherent. That shyness is natural. That is natural. The street mentality, that is unnatural. Nowadays, just as the Gītā says, religion is said to be irreligion, irreligion is said to be religion. And Kṛṣṇa is telling this to Arjuna because it is a mistake that a devotee can make. If it wasn't relevant to a devotee, Kṛṣṇa wouldn't have said it in Gītā. They are in the middle of a battlefield. They are about to have a war. He is not going to go on some tangent. 700 verses, the essence of all the Vedic literatures. I mean, that's concise. The Purāṇas themselves, 400,000 verses. Mahābhārata, 100,000. 18 Purāṇas - 400,000. One Mahābhārata, 100,000. That's 500,000. Then you add in the Vedas, Upaniṣads, this and that, you may get another 100,000. Right? 700 verses. And the first chapter is the opening. So there are already... Then He doesn't start giving instruction until the 11th verse of the second chapter. So that's already what? 56 verses already gone. So that's 650 verses Kṛṣṇa is going to give instruction.
So He is saying this because devotees can make the same mistake. I hear it myself. I heard it from the mouths of devotees. They are trying to tell me that things that are irreligious are normal and things that are normal are not normal. And it is ignorance and every last one of them has never gotten the result that they claim that they are going to get. I have yet to see it. I have not seen it. So, here we see: is this is what works. It is working here. You have to remember, Kṛṣṇa and the queens were married all through their whole life. They had 10 children. It went well. It worked. Draupadī and the Pāṇḍavas, it worked. Yaśodā and Nanda, it worked. You can say, "Well, it's spiritual." Well, maybe that is the point. [Laughter] Maybe that is what we have to do: is get spiritual. Because the mundane is also created. We have to remember, who created the material world? Right? So, that's the point. Kṛṣṇa made it. So, Kṛṣṇa knows how it works.
So, here it is working. This is natural. This is normal. It works. Just as one may say, "No, but the girl can express how she likes, does what she likes." Yes, and the boy also, it is natural that he will be dissatisfied and he will go looking around. The two go together. That is the problem, is the living entity, because they feel they are the center everything is going to go my way. They even wrote a song about it, you know. But we have to remember in the song, things didn't go good. [Laughter] The guy did it his way, but it didn't work out nice. So, this is the point, is that this is how it can work. It is not exactly the same, but in the situation it gets you the maximum you can get. That is the thing, is we have this idea, "I'm going to get everything out of everything." I think I mentioned this before, I was in Vṛndāvana, and this car goes by, you know how... With decals, and they put them right on the windshields and everywhere. So, then this one, it says, "All I want is everything." That was on one of the Brajabasi car. So, that's it. It is simple. "All I want is everything. I am not asking much." Straightforward, simple, you know, down to earth. So, that is the thing, is that you want everything, but everything is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is everything. So, as soon as Kṛṣṇa is part of the equation, you have everything.
See, the masculine concept is, "I get what I want, I am happy." It is not the experience of the thing, it is the getting of the thing. Getting the control, and that you therefore can enjoy it. And even you have it, you are enjoying it, it is still how you control it and get what you want from it. If you think about it, we are talking here just the fundamental mechanics of it, we are not talking all the nice poetics about it. If you are honest and think about it, this is what is going on. So, that is the problem, you are not enjoying it. So, this is the problem, is we think, "No, I'm going to be happy if this, this, this, this happens." But we see from evidence here, that that doesn't have to happen, something else completely different can happen, and you can be happy. So, that is the problem, our own false ego gets in the way that you have situations that you could be happy in something different than the way we have designed it in our mind, but because the element of "If I control, I enjoy," therefore the situation is not going the way I want it to, I'm not in control, therefore I cannot enjoy, even though you could be. I have seen myself, we went once to a restaurant, and we had this idea, we were going to order this one particular, whatever preparation, or it was a thali or something like that, and everybody was attached to that idea. Go there, that item is not available. Right? So many other nice items are there, but because the idea was this, "I am going to get this and enjoy that," therefore when an alternative was ordered, one couldn't enjoy it. Even though if it was known from the beginning that one is not available, then you would naturally choose what is the best out of what is left, right? That is normally what happens, right? Does that make sense?
I remember I was in Haridaspur, I was sitting there, it's not a whole lot, in those days not a whole lot happening, so this was the big event of the day. The morning, then, first thing when the sun comes up, then the goats come through, and they come through to get, there is a big peepal tree, and they get... They would come, go and eat all the leaves that fell off the tree. So then first they go to is the greenest leaves, and they pick up the greenest leaves, and they put them in their mouth, and they munch them until they get to the stem. And when they get to the stem, they bite it off and it drops on the ground. And they go through, very choosy and everything like this. Then, the next big event of the day would be they would come back at noon time, right? For the second round. Now they'll pick up, also, you know, good green leaves and everything, and they will... How you say? Yeah, less good, no, it would be green leaves, and then they would eat them, and, but they would eat the stem this time. They wouldn't drop it off onto the ground. Then, the next big event was the evening, just before the sun goes down, they would come through again. This time, any leaf that was on the ground, they would eat the whole thing, yellow, dry, brown, with the stem, everything. Because that is all that was available. So, that is actually how we work. But the problem is, is because we have made one plan, then when the situation is different, we don't move with that, we still try to apply our old plan due to attachment. And then, when it is not working, then only when we are banged over the head so many times, then we start to actually accept the situation we should have accepted when we started. But now, even that has started to adjust and it is not available. Does that make some sense? While if one comes into the situation with the serving mood, and how is Kṛṣṇa seen here, then when the situation comes up, you see, what is the best way to engage this in Kṛṣṇa's service? And then, take that and move with it. That's real, that's on the ground. You want to know what reality is? That is reality: dealing with what is happening this second, right now, in consideration of the bigger plan of how Kṛṣṇa says what is standards. That is reality. Because reality in this place is always changing.
And in the spiritual world, rasa is always changing, the flavors of rasa. So therefore, sometimes Kṛṣṇa is with Rādhārāṇī, and sometimes He gets stuck in a tree, and He can't be with Her. But that is the flavors that are happening. So, therefore, if this masculine identity is given up, and mood of, the identity of "I am servant of Krishna" is accepted, then the servant is able to adjust with whatever has to be done. Otherwise, what is it? Okay, so, "Go and weed the garden." So the servant is out weeding the garden. Then, ten minutes later, you call him, "Oh, hey, go over to this person's house and pick this thing up, because they went..." "But hey, you told me to weed the garden." "No, no, no, okay, you weed the garden later, we got to go..." "Oh, why can't you just tell me just what you want me to do? I mean, why can't you be straightforward? Why can't you have a plan? What is going on?" Is that a servant? No. It is a matter of, this needs to be done, and something else is not more important, so you do it.
So, that is the point, is we have this thing, "Why can't God make it like this?" You know, you hear devotees say, "Why didn't God make us so that we would be Kṛṣṇa conscious? Why did he make us so that we would be un-Kṛṣṇa conscious? So, it is His fault that we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Right? It is not our fault." No, He made us conscious. Now, it is our choice whether we want to be Kṛṣṇa conscious or not. That is how He has created us. We are conscious. Taṭastha means conscious. Taṭastha doesn't mean specifically Kṛṣṇa conscious, or specifically in Māyā. It means conscious of both, so one can make a choice. Internal potency is not conscious of the external potency. They come to the material world, they only see Kṛṣṇa's creation. They don't even see material energy. We see both, that's how we are created. So, the contradiction is inherent in our nature. One could say, well, why did God create that? But that is the way everything in creation is. There is inside, there is outside. You take this window, you open the window. Now, that space in the window, in the window between the window frames, is that inside or is that outside? You understand? The space in the door, the door frame, the threshold, is the threshold in the house or outside the house? You understand? So, everything is created like that. There is always a junction, a sandhi. There is always, so, we are the sandhi. We are the junction between internal potency and external potency. Therefore, then that contradiction will be there. You could take this or that. It is just the way it is. It is just like the windows here have a valid existence. In fact, you probably appreciate them more than the columns. Look at the windows, look at the wall, look at the columns, what do you like better? Think about it. Okay. So, that means the junction is not that bad. You have the daytime, you have the nighttime, you have the twilight. Some poetics are there about the night, some are there about the day. How many are there about the sunset? Right? So, that's why there is junction. So, that's us. So, it is not a bad thing. So, the point is, is connected to Kṛṣṇa it has meaning. It's not connected to Kṛṣṇa, then it doesn't have meaning.
Is there any questions or comments? Something? Yes?
Prabhu (2): Can you explain about anubhāvas and vyabhicārī-bhāvas and their expression?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Can we explain about...?
Prabhu (2): Anubhāvas and vyabhicārī-bhāvas.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Anubhāvas and vyabhicārī-bhāvas? Bhāva means the feeling that one gets by exchange. So, first there has to be a relationship, that is your sthāyi-bhāva. That is fixed. Then you have what then inspires that relationship to happen. In other words, there is the male and female principle. So, the male principle is Kṛṣṇa, female principle is the devotees. So, the devotees then have the relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Right?
Just like you take, you have the man in the house, you have the wife. The wife has a conjugal relationship with the husband. Husband has other relationships other than the wife. Right? So, but when the wife is there, it draws from him the conjugal mood. When the son is there, it draws the fatherly mood. His friend comes over to draw that. You know, his boss comes over, it will draw a different mood. So, who draws what mood out of Kṛṣṇa? So, mother Yaśodā draws the mood of He is the son. Rādhārāṇī will draw the mood of that He is Her boyfriend. Right? Dhaniṣṭhā will draw the mood of that she is His servant. So, that is the second, you have to have that principle. And then, what within that creates it? For mother Yaśodā then, you know, seeing the kitchen and His food or His clothes or anything like that will create the motherly sentiment in her, it will give rise. Same with the gopīs, when they see kuñjas or River Yamunā or things, that will give rise to their relationship with Kṛṣṇa.
Anubhāva then means then, from that interaction then side happiness, side ecstasies come, like that. So, those are, in performing the activity they come. They are not in meditation. These other things are by meditation. Does that make sense? So, that is in action. So, in other words, these are elements of sambandha, and that is the abhidheya. Right? Then, you get your existential ecstasies which is your sāttvika-bhāvas, that would be like the results, in the prayojana, the standing of hairs on the end or all these things. And sañcārī means then... But those are fairly major. But within that then you have 32 or 33, I think it's classified as one or... Some classify one, some classify the other. The sañcārī-bhāvas are the little bhāvas that just they move for a moment here and there. They just come up and down and up and down. Just they add to already the sāttvika-bhāvas and all that, the other ones. Does that make some sense? You know, like you come into here, there is a general mood of let's say you like the atmosphere. But within that then, but, oh, you notice the garlands on the window, that gives something, or you notice something on the floor, that gives something else. So, like that we are changing those moods every moment, every couple of... Those are sañcārī-bhāvas.
Prabhu (2): What are they called?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Sañcārī.
Prabhu (2): Sañcārī?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Sañcārī-bhāvas. There is another name, what do you call them?
Prabhu (2): Vyabhicārī?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Vyabhicārī. They are the same thing. So, those are constantly changing. Then the sāttvika comes and goes according to the situation. The anubhāva has happened because of the activity. The sthāyi-bhāva is fixed, that is the permanent rasa. And then the vibhāva is then what gives rise to the fixed, the sthāyi-bhāva manifesting. So, they each have their part. Does that make sense?
Prabhu (3): Śrī Mahāprabhu's Antya-līlā is so special... [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, in the Antya-līlā you see so many...?
Prabhu (1): Expressions.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Expressions of it? So, then what is the question?
Prabhu (1): The relationship between the levels of expression and culture?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: The levels of expression and culture? So, then what would be the specific that you are looking for?
Prabhu (1): You mentioned that if the expression is very intense then it is less cultured.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: If it's extensive... Okay. So then the point is is, he is bringing out then if the... If it is more extensive then it is less cultured. We were giving example in the specific and it was specifically applied. So, maybe I... the definition I gave was too general. What I am saying is, is that in the Vedas, the cultural definitions, there are some areas that can be more fully expressed and some less fully expressed because of the situation. Because everything is based on situation. Situation, that is your sambandha-jñāna. So, that is the foundation of everything. Means, you have a relationship, that is based on a situation. Right? You have mother and child because of the situation of the child being born from the mother. You can't change that situation. Right? Then, there will be the activities of that and there will be the happiness that is tasted from that. So, therefore, you get your abhidheya and prayojana. Right? So, in the sambandha, then you have to see, you have to calculate into it the situation and other people's relationships in that situation. Just like the mother has a relationship with the father, so does the son. Right? So, therefore, when the son is there, then the mother is talking about the father as father. She doesn't say, "my husband." She says, "your father" because that is appropriate for there, because it will, in her heart, will nourish the conjugal relationship, but externally, it will cultivate the parental because that is what is happening in that situation. The modern is, is they can't distinguish. Someone is in conjugal, all they know is conjugal. Wherever they are, they got to be holding hands and as close as possible and all that. It means, just... How do you say? One-track mind, means, very undeveloped personality, very shallow, undeveloped personality. Because all they can be is conjugal no matter where they are. They can't discriminate, so their intelligence is less. Their training is less. Their culture is less. So, they are a very undeveloped person. Right?
But if they can take the situation and understand that "This situation is public, therefore, I engage in this way; this one is more private, I engage in this way." Just like this, this is when He has walked into the palace. So, the children are there, the maidservants are there, everyone is there, but it is in the palace. So, it is the queen's place, so, therefore, she manifests this much. If He was walking out in the street, she would be looking out the window, then she wouldn't manifest all of these. She would only embrace him in the heart. She wouldn't even do it in the eyes, because people can see the eyes. Right? When someone looks at someone with some feeling or emotion, you can see it. Right? You've never had that? You are sitting there and talking, someone walks into the room and you look up at them and there is some exchange in the eyes; everyone in the room turns around to see who it was. Because they can see something is happening. So, that's why this one is only happening in the palace. But, therefore, it's said it is natural. Here, "The embrace of the eyes is more effective in conjugal relation, and thus, according to Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī, there is nothing wrong in such an exchange of feelings between husband and wife." But - in the appropriate situation. It can't be seen by others. Right? It wouldn't be seen by the son. Because the son has the back to the mother and facing the father. So, he can't see your eyes, so, it is appropriate.
So that is the point, is one has to use intelligence to see what is appropriate. So, Lord Caitanya is manifesting this, therefore manifesting this, but when it is appropriate. He doesn't manifest everything. You see a lot when He is doing saṅkīrtana, but you don't see everything. You just see Him dancing in ecstasy in the Harināma, but the Ācāryas reveal what the conversation is. You don't hear that conversation on the street. Lord, how Lord Caitanya is inviting Jagannātha to come back to Vṛndāvana, you don't hear on the street. You only hear "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa..." But those who know can see. And then when He is alone with the devotees, then He manifests more. They are not singing Gīta-govinda on the street. It is being sung in the Gambhīra. Plus, He has taken the male form. The male form, even in manifest ecstasies, it is not seen as much. Do you understand? In other words, the feminine, it comes out more. That's why it must be controlled more. There is more happening. You know what I am saying? The bigger, the more volatile a substance, the more it has to be controlled. Right? Does that make sense? So, that is the thing, is the emotions, the reactions that the feminine nature gains from any situation, sensual, emotional, is far greater than the masculine. So the masculine, it is more subtle. The feminine is that same subtlety, much more intense, that it could manifest externally if it is not controlled. So if the situation warrants, then it is manifest. If it doesn't warrant, it is controlled. Does that make sense?
So, in other words, we were discussing more generic before. Does that make it more clear? Like that. So if it is appropriate, then it is natural. But even here it is saying that it wasn't... "inadvertently shed tears." They didn't feel it was appropriate. But because of the insuperable ecstasy, they couldn't hold them back. If the ecstasy was a touch less, they could have. Because it is not the right place. Does that make sense? So if that science is understood, then it creates social harmony and what one is looking for in the social life one gains. If not, speculation, it hasn't done the Māyāvādīs any good. It hasn't done the Buddhists, the Jains, hasn't done the academics. None of them have actually benefited from mental speculation because it is not connected to Kṛṣṇa. Yeah?
So that's why then we don't speculate. We speculate only, it means we do what is... Technically it is called speculation, meaning if you are practicing like the last six chapters of Gītā, where you are seeing... In other words, you are taking what you have heard from śabda and applying it on pratyakṣa, what you see, and you try to put it together. So technically it is mental speculation, but because it is based on śāstra according to what Kṛṣṇa says to please Him and according to the authority of Guru, therefore it is not classified as wrong. But when Kṛṣṇa is left out of this speculation, there is nothing good about it. You know, it is like so many zeros. Even you find something useful, until you put the one of Kṛṣṇa, it has no meaning. So for us, without putting the one, what is the meaning?
Prabhu (3): Is that like the jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛttam means that with that jñāna we try to understand Kṛṣṇa?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛttam? Is that jñāna while you try to understand Kṛṣṇa? Yes, because buddhi-yoga means with intelligence. So you first try to understand it and then you try to apply it with that intelligence. That is buddhi-yoga. Because until one is out of the conditioned state, one is not functioning on transcendental rasa. We are functioning at best on emotional rasa, but most likely on the rasa of sense perception. You know, what our eyes, ears, nose pull in and then we function on that. Does that make sense? Okay. So I think we will end the class here, and then those who have questions can stay after and we will continue the questions if you would like to stay.
Grantha-rāja Śrīmad Bhāgavatam kī jaya! Śrīla Prabhupāda kī jaya! Samavetā bhakta vṛnda kī jaya! Jaya Nitāi-Gaura premānande Hari Hari bol!
Prabhu (4): His Holiness Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Svāmī kī jaya!
[end of lecture]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You are staying to ask question?
Prabhu (5): Yeah, I can.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. [Indistinct] Excuse me. [Indistinct] Hare Kṛṣṇa. So then, you have a question?
Prabhu (5): Yeah, yeah. You said that the śakti-tattva, they are not even conscious of the external material world. I found that a very interesting point. So then my mind comes and says, "Well, does that mean that the taṭastha-śakti has a broader scope of consciousness, since it can be conscious of more and thus is superior?"
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Ah, okay. So a question has come up that we had made the point that the internal potency doesn't even see the material world, but the taṭastha-śakti does. So does that mean that the taṭastha-śakti is therefore, has a broader vision and scope than even the internal potency? So are we, again, another way, okay, we can't be God, but can we be better than the internal potency? Yes. [Laughter] Somehow or another we have got to be up there on the top [Laughter]. Okay.
So what we mean by they don't see, the internal potency, means that the will see this energy, but they don't see it, they don't see it through Mahāmāyā. Mahāmāyā simply means seeing this energy without Kṛṣṇa. They see this energy with Kṛṣṇa, so therefore they see more. [Laughter] So when we get in the fire of the internal potency, we will see like them. So we will be on the absolute platform, non-different from the internal potency. Like that's why the example is given of iron and fire, is that the... That is the most appropriate way of explaining Absolute, because iron is always iron, but when it is in the fire, it is as good as fire. So that is the principle that is applied. Does that make some sense? So we will always be internal, I mean, taṭastha-śakti, but we will be in the fire of the internal potency, and because we are in that fire, then we are as good as. So the internal potency in Kṛṣṇa doesn't make any distinction between whether one is a jīva-tattva or whether one is śakti-tattva. There is no differentiation there. Does that make some sense? Because it's just all, just like Kṛṣṇa doesn't make any distinction between the sandhinī, saṁvit, hlādinī potencies. Like that, they are just all His energies, so that categorization is intellectual, it is for the purpose of trying to break our connection, our attachment and connection to the material world. That's why it's there. So it is used on the platform of jñāna-yoga, in buddhi-yoga, to get us out of the material world, but once we are out, it is not used. We don't distinguish that this particular aspect of personality is sandhinī and this is this and that, no, we don't do that there. It is not important, it is only important to make us conscious and aware, because if we get aware of those bigger things, then we start to make smaller, smaller, smaller, until we get it down to everything within our life. That is the idea: is that whatever is our sphere or our world of perception and experience, Kṛṣṇa should be involved in all of that. So if someone has a bigger world, then Kṛṣṇa is involved in more aspects. Someone has a smaller world, it is there. So that is the advantage of simplicity, is that the world is actually smaller. But if you can connect it to Kṛṣṇa, then that is better than the very complex intellectual. Right? So that is the point. But on the absolute platform, it doesn't matter whether the simple person or the sophisticated person has connected everything to Kṛṣṇa. Connecting it to Kṛṣṇa is what is important. So if it is done, it is done. And one doesn't have to worry. Does that make sense?
That's why there isn't one is better than the other. Simply for understanding fullness or intensity or application, then you can say something is better than the other. But once you say something is better than the other, that is generally, has a sense of duality to it. And so duality is only useful, it is a mundane quality, it is only useful if it is connected to Kṛṣṇa. So if of the duality, one of them is more favorable for Kṛṣṇa's service, then the duality becomes useful, otherwise, it doesn't matter. That Prabhupāda says, wet stool or dry stool, it doesn't matter because... Does that make some sense? So we have to see its use in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is there. So, therefore the taṭastha-śakti sees less, unless it connects itself to the internal potency. And when it connects itself to Māyā, then it sees even less than in the taṭastha position. Because in the taṭastha position, you can see Kṛṣṇa and you can see Māyā, but you don't have affinity for either. But when one sees, when one has attachment to Kṛṣṇa, then one sees the material energy, but since it is not separate from Kṛṣṇa, it is just inferior energy. So the internal potency sees superior and inferior energy. But even for them, it is just, it is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. It is just, the superior energy is more convenient for service and inferior energy is less convenient. But it doesn't matter. Because the real thing is not the convenience or the results, it is Kṛṣṇa's happiness.
So if all you have is inferior energy to engage in Kṛṣṇa's service, if Kṛṣṇa is happy through that engagement, then that is perfection. But if you have superior energy to engage in Kṛṣṇa's service, then Kṛṣṇa being pleased with that endeavor, that is - that is perfection. Does that make sense? So that's why ultimately it doesn't matter whether it is internal or external potency being engaged or what element of it, it doesn't matter. Because Kṛṣṇa being connected to it, that is the real thing. That is Vastu: it is connected to Kṛṣṇa.
So that is why you have like Vastu-śāstra, right? Because then your house, your furnitures, your vehicles, the land that you live on, is connected to Kṛṣṇa through regulations of the scriptures. So that is the meaning of Vastu. So that principle of Vastu applies in everything. It doesn't just apply there. But it is at least one point, if you can catch it there, you can apply it anywhere. That is the principle.See, it's, there is only one science and that is Kṛṣṇa. But because of conditioned nature or the particular individuality, but let's take it from the conditioned state, that because of conditioning we have particular aspects of the material energy that for us is attractive. So then the Vedic science is that take that attraction, learn that attraction fully in connection with Kṛṣṇa and get to the point where you understand the principles on which that subject works. Then you can connect everything in your life to Kṛṣṇa through that. It becomes a little lopsided, but at least you connect everything. Does that make sense?
Let's say you take, okay, Vastu that we mentioned before. Now you could go, everywhere you go there is land, there is buildings, there is furnitures and there is vehicles, right? And everywhere you go there is East, West, North, South. So that means that every moment, no matter what you are doing, you can connect everything to Kṛṣṇa through Vastu. Does that make sense? You could do that. It becomes a little lopsided, but you could do it. Same way you take medicine, right? Someone is into medicine, they see everything through medical point of view. Someone is into astrology, they see everything through the astrological point of view. Someone is into business, they see everything through economics. Someone is into art, they see everything through... Does that make sense? So that is how the Vedic science works. That is why it is so manifold, it is because there is manifold conditioned natures. So the idea is, is the principles that they all work on are all the same because it is all Kṛṣṇa. All it is, is Kṛṣṇa manifested through medicine, Kṛṣṇa manifested through your house or city layout, Kṛṣṇa manifested through the influence of the planets, Kṛṣṇa manifested through the science of the mind working or through presentation or through grammar or through poetics, or... Because Kṛṣṇa is all of them. But you are taking one particular aspect because He is complete. Oṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrnam... [Śrī Īṣopaniṣad Invocation] Anything that comes from Kṛṣṇa is complete. So therefore, from grammar, it has come an emanation from Kṛṣṇa, you can view the whole universe through it. Right? Or through philosophy or through logic or through... Because they are all manifestations of Kṛṣṇa, so each one of them is complete in itself. But its only real completeness is when Kṛṣṇa is there because it is an emanation from Him.
So when that is understood, then that is what softens the science. A Kṛṣṇa conscious mature person in a field, it applies to himself but he doesn't apply it to everybody. You know, it's just like you see the young punk, he gets his car, wherever he is, it's a race. But if you take someone who is actually a Formula One race driver, he will get in just very comfortable family car and drive according to all the rules down the street, like that. I have seen it, like that. So because he knows when to apply the science and when not. So therefore, it may be that you have that expertise or mastery in the field but you only apply it when it needs to be applied. Because you see Kṛṣṇa in it. It is not a trip for you, it is not your identity. So that is the point, is when it is your identity, it is not complete. Therefore, that's why it is still a disturbance. And the person who has that identity then feels, "Why doesn't everybody else see it this way?" No, because that is their conditioned nature. Why should everybody see it that way? Where is... Why they have to see it that way? They don't. They see it according to their conditioned nature. Of course, the more mature platform is being able to see it from any of those perspectives. That is anūcāna. This is given in the scriptures. Anūcāna means one who can see all aspects of the scriptures in any given situation with God as the center. That is anūcāna. They don't just know one branch. They know all the branches. But that is not jack of all trades, master of none. Because you know Kṛṣṇa as the center, therefore, you are actually master of all, though you may not be able to apply all of them, but you know how they all function. Therefore, the sages can be sitting there in their kaupīnas under a tree, and they can advise great kings and business persons, and the common farmer, and the family man or the renunciate because they know the principles on which the cosmic manifestation works. So, whatever is the field that the person has, he doesn't have to know how to, he doesn't have to be able to operate the field. He can understand how it works. So then you can give advice to someone who is expert in the field because you have mastered the actual field, which means understanding every thing's connection to Kṛṣṇa. Does that make some sense?
So that is the whole idea, is that the internal potency is on that platform. So they see everything connected to Kṛṣṇa. While the taṭastha has a tendency, could see or not see. So that means it is, they are actually technically in a lesser position. But if they connect themselves to the internal potency, no distinction is made. Like that, they don't make distinction. Like Rādhārāṇī, She is the svarūpa-śakti. But She doesn't consider Herself superior to Mother Yaśodā, who technically is Her expansion. And then all the other elder gopīs are expansions of Mother Yaśodā, but they are not seen as anything less. So that is the thing. So the distinction is only made in the realm of tattva. So, tattva is intellectual for breaking our understanding, breaking our attachment to the material world. So, does that make sense?
Mātājī(1): [Indistinct] Hare Kṛṣṇa... Only Kṛṣṇa is the male, isn't it?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah.
Mātājī(1): [Indistinct] ...the only enjoyer is Kṛṣṇa. [Indistinct] ...iwe must be spiritual, not men or women, women... still are souls?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: We must be spiritual souls, not men or women. Well, spiritual means women.
See, you have to... There is two things here. There is the principle of what is feminine, right? And then there is the cultural manifestation that is feminine. Does that make sense?
Mātājī(2): I don't understand...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. There is femininity and then there is the culture of expressing that femininity. Yeah? Okay. Femininity you can't change, right? You bring the roughest, nastiest, heaviest woman, she is still feminine, though the culture she applies her femininity through is masculine. But if you understand the science of femininity, you can see that she acts just as much as a woman as every other woman. No difference, not one bit. Because her motives for acting as a man are still feminine. The goals she is trying to get from acting as a man are still feminine. And the actual way she will view and apply the masculine activities are still feminine. So she in no way has left the feminine nature.
So, energy is feminine by nature. But depending upon how it manifests, it may manifest in the culture of masculine or feminine. Just like the cowherd boys will manifest masculine culture, but the purpose of doing it will still be feminine, means, to please Kṛṣṇa. Does that make sense? So, in this, I guess you have to excuse us is that we will flow in-between the two and sometimes we don't tell which one we are functioning on, you know. So, when we say we are all feminine, then it is obvious that we are working on the element of the energy. And then when we are saying about, here is, you know, embracing through the eyes, then we are talking feminine culture. Does that make sense? So, it is like that, you know it's just... So, we will flow in-between.
Mātājī(1): [Indistinct] ...reality [Indistinct] ...what reality is Kṛṣṇa...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: What is reality...?
Mātājī(1): [Indistinct] what is the reality... It's kind-of like I don't understand [Indistinct] reality and Kṛṣṇa, what reality He wants... What reality... I don't like this reality...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You don't like this reality. Okay, you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The reality is, it exists, and you don't like it.
Mātājī(1): [Indistinct] ...reality... [Indistinct] the devotees... the reality...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes. Yes. You had something?
Prabhu (6): I think you were saying how Kṛṣṇa's culture is reality.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Oh, okay.
Prabhu (6): And the relationships set up [Indistinct] the reality... when He wants to deal with them, so in that way there is a way that Kṛṣṇa has made the world work like that. I think that's where you mentioned reality.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: And then do you understand her point?
Prabhu (6): Yeah, then she is saying, you know, you are saying that is reality, but we don't like the material reality.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Uh-huh.
Prabhu (6): I think that, I think that... I think there is a crossover between how you were using the word "reality" and then how she has understood it and applying it.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Do you understand...
Prabhu (6): She doesn't like material reality.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. Oh, that's not bad. [Laughter] That's okay.
Prabhu (6): You were saying that there is, you know, we have this cultural reality that we have to apply.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. No, I'm just saying is... [Laughter] It just struck me as that. How you say?
Mātājī(1): It's okay.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Do you understand what he is saying?
Mātājī(1): Yes, really good. [Indistinct] ...we must accept this reality because this reality [Indistinct] ...cannot accept this reality that I don't like...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, but the reality, okay, you can't accept this reality, but the point... Okay, that's what you are meaning. You said that... This reality means, reality means how Kṛṣṇa has described it, not how we have interpreted it?
Mātājī(1): Uh-huh
HH BVPS Mahārāja: That's what I mean. The material world is going to be the way it is, that's just the way it is. But how we perceive it and therefore apply our life according to that perception, that is the reality that we can change. But it only is changeable if you connect it to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, it will change, the modes of nature will change it for you. But it will still be the same thing, it will still be just a different manifestation of Māyā. But if you see it in connection with Kṛṣṇa, then it changes from Mahāmāyā to Yogamāyā. It still will function the same way and look the same way, but Kṛṣṇa is seen in everything, and so therefore then there is peace. So that is what Prabhupāda is giving us, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is what he is trying to give. Does that make sense?
Mātājī (1): The devotee reality... [Indistinct] the experience, it must be very different than the world reality... [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: The devotee's reality must be different from the non-devotee's? Of course, because they see Kṛṣṇa is there. So what we are speaking on is when devotees get attached to the non-devotee reality. That creates the problems, both spiritually and socially, economically, everything. Is that no one is complaining where anyone came from. Right? I was just thinking this morning about, what was it, Star Ranch or something, or? There was some place, I think it was outside San Francisco or some place? Prabhupada went to visit there...
Prabhu (7): Morning Star.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Morning Star. Means, Prabhupāda went to visit there and preached there. Everyone on Morning Star was stark naked. So they are sitting there talking to Prabhupāda and this and that, and all that. I think, a whole group of devotees even came from there, five or seven devotees came from there. But you will notice in the rendition, in the Līlāmṛta, not one of their names are mentioned. [Laughter] A little embarrassing that you were standing there stark naked in front of Prabhupada and discussing philosophy, like that.
So no one is complaining where anyone came from. It is understood, if you come from the material world, it is bad. Even if it is good, it's bad, you know. So, that is not the problem. The problem is, is if we remain attached to it. Right? So, for us, we always talk about how attachment is bad. Attachment is not the problem. Attachment to Māyā is the problem. Attachment to Kṛṣṇa is what we want. But because the only attachment we know is attachment to Māyā, therefore to break that, we talk about how it is bad. Then we start to doubt it. Otherwise, we are completely fixed that attachment to Māyā is where it is at. Right? So, you put a doubt in the mind, that is the first thing you do, right? Means, bheda. Before daṇḍa, you have to have bheda, you have to split. So, if we are going to smash the material existence, first we have to split us off from it. Otherwise, we are going to stand by it and defend it. So, before Kṛṣṇa can destroy it, that concept, He has to split us, so you have to put a doubt. Right? So, that is bheda, it is diplomacy. So, first the doubt has to be created that this attachment... It is the third one. Sama, dāna, bheda, daṇḍa. So the attachment, first you have to put a doubt about it. But now, even in putting a doubt about it, we can't become attached to the idea that attachment is bad. So that is what you see, when you see these social things that don't work, is you have a polarity there between two aspects of niyamāgraha:
1) The brahmacārī's aspect of attachment to the concept that attachment is bad. So anything to do with attachment is bad.
2) And then you have the opposite of the duality of the gṛhasthas, they are attached to the idea that attachment is okay, and it is natural, and it is good, and it is normal and every, you know, every other euphemism they try to apply on it.
And so, they will go on fighting eternally. Because the point is, is, attachment is not bad connected to Kṛṣṇa. Attachment under material energy is bad, but it won't stop immediately. That is the first option. If you can stop attachment to material energy immediately and transfer it to Kṛṣṇa, that is the first option. If you can do it, do it. Don't waste your time. If you can't do it, then take up sādhana-bhakti. Because by sādhana bhakti, then you will be able to get to prema-bhakti. Right? So through that, then you will give up that attachment to material world by regulating it. If that is enough... But that doesn't really deal with gṛhastha life and all those things. It regulates your eating and sleeping and your fearing, but it leaves mating out of the picture. Right? Then you bring in the element, okay, so then, but I have to deal with that. So then that brings in the working for Kṛṣṇa. So that brings in all these cultural elements, the Varṇāśrama system in it. So then you see as we take that, now engage that in Kṛṣṇa's service. So it is a way to methodically pull oneself out of the material energy. So it is not wrong, but if we become attached to any one part of the process, we won't progress. Just like we have to go up 20 stairs to get through the door. Okay, we are happy to sit down here and not even bother with the stairs. But someone has to say, "No, no, the door, that's where it's at." You know? And you got to go up these stairs. Then we are walking up the stairs, and we like the view from the fifth stair, we turn around, "Hey, this is pretty good. I can see over everything, this is nice." You know? So then someone comes along and has to say, "No, but you are attached," like that. "No, no, but this is the stairs." And you can go on and on and on. Then someone has to come along and go, "Haribol! The door!" [Laughter] You know? So that is the reality. But because it comes through the flavor that uses the same terms, because language is only a medium for expression, so its perfection is connection to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore definition of terms, sometimes there is overlap. And because of that overlap, that is where argument happens. So on that, then there is all these... So then, the point... Yeah. Does that make sense?
So, attachment is not the problem if it is connected to Kṛṣṇa. If it is not connected to Kṛṣṇa, it is THE problem. The only reason we are in the material world is because of attachment to it. If there is any one thing you can pinpoint why we are here, it is attachment to the material world. So therefore, attachment is the problem. But at the same time, attachment is the perfection. But it is just transferring the attachment from Māyā to Kṛṣṇa. So that is the process of sādhana-bhakti. That is what we are trying to span. Does that make some sense? So that is why a very mature approach has to be taken to attachment. That it has to be seen that it is normal that people are attached to material energy. But it's... And you could say, it is normal that they don't see that they are attached or they remain attached. But it is not progressive. So, therefore, the Vaiṣṇava culture is broad-minded in that it can accommodate any level of attachment, as long as that level of attachment is being progressive and that it is trying to be connected to Kṛṣṇa. It may be slow, but that endeavor must be there. If that endeavor is not there, that moment it becomes absolutely useless. So, therefore, that is why you see on any one particular topic, Prabhupāda may give two seemingly absolutely contradictory statements. Because one is being progressive and one is not, or one is being applied to someone who is attached and one is being applied to someone who is not attached, like that. So, one has to be able to see. But the principles are the same because it always works. Does that make some sense? So, that is very, very important, to see is that it is normal. But at the same time, if it is not progressive, it is useless. So we could say, yes, it is normal, attachment is normal. Yes, but it is useless. So, unless it is being connected to Kṛṣṇa... Then it becomes useful. Does that make sense? Or if that attachment, even though it is indirect and it is there... Just like you see, so many times you have, you know, somebody is attached to a friend and that friend becomes a devotee. So they are still attached to their friend and then from that then they come in contact with Kṛṣṇa and slowly, slowly they take prasāda and hear some philosophy and over time then they become a devotee. So that attachment was useful, but only because it connected them to Kṛṣṇa. But if it didn't connect them to Kṛṣṇa, it is absolutely useless. Yes?
Prabhu (7): Would you say useless is...?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. [Laughter] Like you could say it is degraded. Detrimental, yeah.
Prabhu (7): Detrimental.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: We just use useless because it is... Prabhupāda would use that, asāra, means, it has no function. Because why we probably use it... Means, it is detrimental, means, it is against. But the point is, is in both of these you will see the common principle is activity. Detrimental means it is against what is progressive. Useless means it won't make things work in a positive way.
Prabhu (7): [Indistinct] ...pretty well...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. So that is why it is very interesting if you look at the... Like we just did something. We are taking all the words from the Gītā, and you put them all together and then you see the words have been used so many times in the different verses. But what is interesting to note is the different translations Prabhupāda gives to the words. Many times, some of them are the same, but sometimes it is seemingly very different. So then that is where you get an insight into the actual common point, the broader aspect of that word or that meaning. Because it can be applied in so many areas. Because generally we tend to take a word and apply it only in one direction, because it suits our nature, our conditioned nature, or the field that we are functioning in. But it will be... Just like buddhi. Then here it is intelligence, but then Prabhupāda also translates it as connect, means, being able to see things in light of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So that is real intelligence. Because intelligence means to discriminate, but of intelligence to discriminate what is Kṛṣṇa and what's not - that is real intelligence. And then, even more is, even what we consider what is not, to see that in connection with Kṛṣṇa, then that is even more intelligent. So the first step is: you connect the duality to Kṛṣṇa. The second step is: you remove the duality. Like the first step is, okay, gold is a nicer thing to make ornaments out of than dirt. But in the long run is, gold is no more valuable than dirt if it is not connected to Kṛṣṇa. It is not the gold... Means, because we are attached to gold, therefore the gold is better than something else. Or, let's say, gold is nicer than silver. But that is only because of our attachment. The real value is its connection to Kṛṣṇa. So at that point then Kṛṣṇa is kept and material world is dropped. Otherwise, before that, we are working with the material world, so we take the best of the material world and offer it to Kṛṣṇa. And at one point we see, it is actually Kṛṣṇa is what is valuable. Then the material energy can be dropped, like that. Is that okay?
Prabhu (7): Yes. So that point about useless is also detrimental... So when we are engaged in spiritual life, there is no hovering.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No hovering, no. You can't. There is no such thing as neutrality, because neutrality means there is no activity, it is actually ignorance. Because we have to look at it... What's it? Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi... [Śrīla Prabhupāda praṇāma mantra] So, pāścātya-deśa. So that is the common principle. Pāścātya just, one would say, okay, that is the West, what about the Orient? But according to the Vedas, then Bengal is East. And the farther West you go, the more degraded it becomes. Does that make sense? So that, therefore, Bengal is East. Everything else after that is West, you know, the farther you go. So up to Brahmāvarta, that is still considered within East. But once you cross the... What do you call that, you know, the Indian, that...
Prabhus: [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, no. Once you cross from the Bay of Bengal to the Indian Ocean, between the Vindhya Mountains and the Himālayas, that is Āryavarta. After that, everything is West.
Prabhu (7): The further West you go, and then...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: The more it goes. So even you come around and it is East, and they have the culture of India, still the consciousness is more degraded.
Prabhu (7): Yes, the Korea, the...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, so the farther you come in, it becomes more, because they are more focused on the material energy, like that. But just like you take the, you know, as we are saying here, Westerners, used in the contemporary sense, are not actually, even though they are seemingly the more materialistic people, they are not as materialistic as the Orient. Because the Westerners become bewildered by what is valuable. They sometimes have a doubt that their money or their position, or that has value. But in the Orient, they know that these are the keys that make things work in the whole social system. You have position, you have money, you have this, it works. So they are more focused on the material energy, that's why they can make it work to more advantage. So then the Westerners learn from them, you know, techniques of business and administration, because they are so much more focused. But because of that, it is more degraded because it is more fixed in the material energy. But as Śrīla Prabhupāda said, if you can catch them, because they are so focused on material energy, if you can catch them, then it will be the opposite, they will be the best.
Prabhu (7): Like the Chinese?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, so it will just go the opposite. You know, just like you see...
Prabhu (7): The last to come.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, you know, just like you take Citraketu. Ten million wives, right? He has had to have conceived a child in each and every one of them, right?
Prabhu (7): He must have been very old.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Ehh, it was at different time, I think he lived a little longer. [Laughter]
Prabhu (5): Ten million nights. [Laughter]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Ten million nights, okay. Maybe he had to wait it to work more than one night. So, whatever it is, but the point is, is, he was... I mean, that is absorbed. But then you see, is then after the instruction by Nārada Muni, he is the most detached. But he is functioning on a level of detachment like Lord Śiva. And so, Śiva understands what he is talking about. But even Pārvatī can't, you know. So, the extreme is there. Someone who is so, then they will sometimes be the one... Like I remember, there was one devotee that... When he became a devotee, then everybody thought, you know, normally very gentle, super gentle, soft-spoken, so considerate, everything like this. And then many people became life members after this person became a devotee. I mean, a lot of people. And one day when they were explaining that we became a devotee, I mean we became life members because when we saw this person become a devotee, we knew this movement had potency. Because he was the baddest, nastiest guy around, you know. [Laughter] And becoming a devotee, he became so gentle and soft-spoken, and caring, and considerate. They said, "We got to be part of this." [Laughter] So they became life members, like that. So, it is not an uncommon thing. That is why focus is so important. The blasé person as a devotee will still be blasé. So the point is, this focus is important. Focus on materialism is bad. But the point is, is someone who is focused, if you can convince them of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they will be focused on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you know. So that's why Prabhupāda was always pushing this, "Go out, get this." Because it would create focus, it would create. But it's not that that is the important thing. Focus is what is important. Does that make some sense? Yes, sir?
Prabhu (8): Mahārāja, I want to know if the taṭastha-śakti created according to Kṛṣṇa's desire or our desire, or...?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Is the taṭastha-śakti created on Kṛṣṇa's desire or our desire? Means, the answer would be it is Kṛṣṇa's. It means it is not a matter of it's created, it exists. Because Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you nor all these kings." [Bhagavad-gītā 2.12] It means, all Kṛṣṇa's energies and everything in the cosmic manifestation already exists. It always has and always will. It is just a matter of manifesting or not. Kṛṣṇa manifests it when He likes. But its existence is always there. So the soul doesn't come into being, it always exists. It does not come into being, will not come into being. They always exist. Because we think in terms of time, therefore it may be explained in that way, just to catch. Catch means, in other words, if you are teaching a student, the first thing you have to figure out is where the student is at. Then you have to catch the attention of the student, the interest of the student. Then bring him from there to wherever you want to get them to. But if you can't catch the attention of the student, you don't, you haven't taught. You may have talked, you may have written things on the board, but you haven't taught anything. When you have actually ascertained and caught the student, so that from their position they can relate to what you have spoken, then you have taught. So, therefore, so much of what is explained to us is explained through the medium of time and space. Because that is where we are at. But ultimately then you see even that is dropped and then we become confused. We say, "Oh, Prabhupāda is contradictory, the scriptures are contradictory, it's all contradictory." No, it's not. We are contradictory. Because we are in the realm of duality, duality means contradictory. Does that make sense? So, the soul doesn't come into being. So it is not a matter of our desire or not, it has nothing to do with us, we already exist. Our desire is simply, do we want to exist in connection with Kṛṣṇa or exist in connection with Māyā? That is the real of what we can do. Does that make sense? Is that on this? Or is it something separate? If it is separate, we will go to him, if it's the same thing...
Prabhu (9): It's something separate.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, so we'll go to the next one.
Prabhu (10): Mine is a separate question.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, yeah. No, that's all. No, just that you raised it simultaneously, so I thought there was a common point.
Prabhu (10): So, I'm not really sure how to word this, but we have our desires that we're born with and everything. And then, like you are saying all these things about how things work, like, you know, position of different people, this is all natural, this is the way Kṛṣṇa created everything. You know, whatever you say, you can't do anything about it, this is the way it is. So, but in that, also we have, you know, my part, my desires or whatever it is. And, you know, I'm going through, you know, whatever sādhana, whatever service I have. You know, this is a gradual process and I have to, you know, just basically have patience or whatever. But in addition to that, I mean, sometimes it seems like, you know, okay, it's going to, you know, just going to take many lifetimes or something maybe. I mean...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: I am saying, so what is the point? What do you want to get to? Your question is on how many lifetimes is it going to take to get back to Godhead?
Prabhu (10): No, no...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: or, you know, where does free will come in and pre-destiny come in, or...?
Prabhu (10): Yeah, how to change, you know, under guidance of some spiritual authority, I am doing some particular service, like that. But then, you know, it just seems like, you know, desires don't change, there is nothing...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, what do you want to know? How to change those desires?
Prabhu (10): Yeah, like that.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. So...
Prabhu (10): [Indistinct] I am talking about...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, no, that's good. You know, it's just a matter we have to find, you know, what is the working point. You know what I am saying? Otherwise, then the question won't be answered. So then, how to change desires? First of all, there must be, and first of all, the mind has to accept that there is a need to change. And that is generally inspired by a variety of options offered by the intelligence, the discrimination of the intelligence. In other words, we can see that there is a spiritual option, there is a material option. So, before we only thought there is a material option, so naturally we commit fully to it. But when we see there is the spiritual option, then it throws up a doubt that, well, maybe there is something wrong with material. Because it is pretty obvious it is not working. But, because we have nothing else, we continue at it, we try hard, we work hard. So, once the mind has accepted that a change is necessary, then we start to contemplate what it is that we want to change to, what are the advantages of changing to that new value? And what are the disadvantages of maintaining the particular value we have at present? Right? So, contemplation is necessary, because by contemplation then we become more fixed, we get more faith in where we want to go to, and we start to lose faith in where we have come from. Then, according to authority, we follow the practices that will apply that value practically in our life. So then, by practicing, then slowly, slowly, slowly that practice will come to the point where it becomes easy to do that activity. We may not have changed the value, but by habit we can do it. Like, we can chant 16 rounds, that is not the problem. It may still be a problem to hear nicely, but it's not like before, where one day we get 16 done, and the next day we don't, and the next day we have to stay up all night and get all our rounds done, and the next day we're tired so we don't finish our rounds, and the next day we have to stay up all night. We get rid of that. So the habit, the form of the habit becomes fixed. But you have to change the habit, the actual value in the heart, the desire in the heart. So that comes by that applying both. It is called manana.
Prabhu (10): Both means?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Both means the intellectual understanding that this one is better and the other is worse, and the practice of following what is good and giving up what is worse. Do you understand? That combination then gives realization, that realization means change. So, actual change has come to realization. Many times devotees take it that just by they have heard what to do, they practice it, and they become good at it, and they take that as perfection. But that is only half of the second stage.
Prabhu (11): Sincerity.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Eh?
Prabhu (11): You have to do it with sincerity.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, with sincerity. So that means the other half then means you have to contemplate and know what is going on.
Prabhu (10): Second stages is then...?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, the first stage is, we hear about something. Second stage is, we practice it with that knowledge. So, generally we are accustomed to practicing something, not bothering with the knowledge, because it's not practical, it's not pragmatic. Or we contemplate the knowledge and don't practice it, that is the armchair philosopher. So between the pragmatist and the armchair philosopher, they both function on the second level of knowledge, but not completely. Therefore neither of them get to the third level, which is the realization. Realization is different from understanding. Both get understanding. One gets a practical understanding, one gets a theoretical understanding, that is knowledge. But realization is value. Realization means, you realize why it is important and you do it. You talk to most people who smoke know, have the knowledge that it's bad, and they could probably even give you evidence why. The coughing, the fingers are going yellow, the teeth are going yellow, the bad breath. They can give so many things. But they have the understanding but not the realization. So when they first go to the doctor and the doctor tells them that they have got cancer, then realization sets in many times really fast. So then they move to the next level, then they give up smoking. So knowledge is not enough. That's why Kṛṣṇa says you must practice it with knowledge, but you have to have the devotion because knowledge is still not... Practice is not enough, knowledge is not enough. The combination of those two still is not enough. Karma will keep you in the material world. Jñāna will seemingly get you out of the material world, but you will still stay here. You put the two together and perform naiṣkarmya, it will get you out of the material world, but not into the spiritual world. But if it is done to please Kṛṣṇa, then it becomes bhakti. Right? That is buddhi-yoga. That will get you out of the material world and get you into the spiritual world. Does that make sense?
Prabhu (10): It makes sense in speaking it, but it doesn't make sense in seeing it happen. It doesn't seem like anything...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Well, that's because you are not applying it into what you are doing. You have to connect your intellectualizing with your senses.
Prabhu (10): For example?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: For example, you have to see, okay, what service do you do?
Prabhu (10): Book distribution.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, so why do you do book distribution?
Prabhu (10): Because that's what I've been told is the best thing for me.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You have [been] told it's the best thing for you, but do you believe it is the best thing for you?
Prabhu (10): Yeah, I can't find anything better.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, you can't find anything better, but now if you found something better, then you might do something else.
Prabhu (10): If I was told that it is better, then I would.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: If you are told it's better, you would, but then what about your having the feeling that it is better? Just like, okay, let us say, what do you like to eat?
Prabhu (10): You're asking me?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah.
Prabhu (10): Kicharī.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Kicharī. Did someone tell you that that's the best thing to eat? Or did you find that that's the best thing for you now?
Prabhu (10): I found.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, so now you have figured out that kicharī works the best for you. Okay, keeps your health and everything. That's realization. That's applying your intelligence onto that, because you have tried all the other kinds of food, and you have found kicharī is the best. So you used intelligence with practical application. You came up with the realization that kicharī works the best for you.
Prabhu (10): Okay.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, so now if you apply that into your book distribution, and get that same feeling that, "Yes, this is the best, because I have done so many services in both the material world and in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you will find you will get a taste. Because you get a taste from eating kicharī, but now you get a taste from your book distribution.
Prabhu (10): I have a taste for book distribution.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, but it is still, it is intellectual. So that is good, that is an advanced stage of the second stage of knowledge. But when you have understood that this book distribution is the best service you could do for your nature, you are most comfortable with it, this is what you want to do for Kṛṣṇa, not because someone has told you to do it, because you want to do it - that is realization, that is value.
Prabhu (11): Taste.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: That is taste.
Prabhu (10): But then all the karmas and all desires are still there, just as much.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, but that's in something else. That is a different field. Book distribution isn't your desire for girls or your desire for this or that. It is a different area.
Prabhu (10): Right.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You can't say that, well, because, you know, I ate kicharī, but, you know, I still don't have a new dhoti.
Prabhu (10): [Laughter]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You know what I am saying? Eating kicarī satisfies the need for food. So book distribution satisfies the need for you to engage in some direct service to Kṛṣṇa. But it doesn't engage your need for emotional support in a family situation or economics, or other things like that, necessarily. You understand? Those are different fields. You can reduce your needs down to that's all you have to do, that's the best.
Prabhu (10): You said I can't do that?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You can do that.
Prabhu (10): I can?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: That's the second stage of devotional service, second option in devotional service is: just engage in sādhana-bhakti. You know what I am saying? So here you are using your book distribution as a sādhana. So you could just, you know, get up in the morning, take your bath, go to Mangala-āratī, chant your rounds, take prasāda, go out on book distribution, study some of Prabhupāda's books, you know, hear some classes, do other aspects of the sādhana, and go to sleep at night and be perfectly engaged your whole life.
Prabhu (10): But then these other desires...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, so therefore you have to include into it the third.
Prabhu (10): The third?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: The third level is: work for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhu (10): Work?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Work, yes. Work, work
Prabhu (10): Book distribution will take care of work. Work is... book... it is hard work.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: What does that guy say? What does that guy say? He hated work. Okay, so let's say you're eating. Is that work?
Prabhu (10): No, not really.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: It's not work. You don't... Means, it just flies into your mouth and goes down your stomach.
Prabhu (10): [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, so is that work or not? Okay, it's work. Okay, you got to blow your nose. Is that work or not? Okay, you got to, you know, you got to make your bed and get into it and roll over and go to sleep and get... Is that work?
Prabhu (10): Yeah, it is work.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, so that means everything is work. So, you have connected one part of the work of your life, a very major part, a very important part, but you haven't applied all of your social and emotional, you know, or sensual needs necessarily. You haven't applied those works in Kṛṣṇa's service.
Prabhu (10): Yeah.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, so you have to do that. You either have to intellectualize on them and ignore them and just drop them, if that works for you, because that is better. Why deal with the senses when you don't have to? But if you have to, then how are you going to engage the work of the senses or of the emotions in Kṛṣṇa's service?
Prabhu (10): That's the thing I'm asking. That's what I was trying to work out...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, okay, yes. So, now, that means then you have to decide what are those, whatever needs, emotional, economic or sensual needs? And also that you have to consider the element of liberation, how much you can function dealing with the material energy. You have to see... I mean, in other words, dharma, artha, kāma and mokṣa, those are where desire lies, material desire. So, how much can you deal with the material energy? That is the mokṣa aspect. What are the emotions that you are looking for from your dealings with the material energy? That is your dharma, right? Because that is your relationships. What economic standard do you need to function at to fulfill your desires? Right? That is the artha. And the kāma, what is the sensual needs that you are looking for? So, you have to be able to combine all four of them into a package.
Prabhu (10): And the idea is to put them into the service that is working properly?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes. Then you connect them to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhu (10): Functional Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes.
Prabhu (10): So, then it just takes time, effort and time to figure out.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes. Okay?
Prabhu (10): Thank you.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Haribol! Yes?
Prabhu (9): I had this question... [Indistinct] Actually, I think. from the last class I asked this question... [Indistinct] Ahaṃ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo, this verse, sarva-pāpebhyo...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Sarva-pāpebhyo? Yes?
Prabhu (9): ... mokṣayiṣyāmi... Can you explain, how do we surrender then... [Indistinct] come? You get rid of the sins before you became a devotee, they were taken care of. Is it prārabdha-karma? How to get rid of those sins?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: How to get rid of the sins before you surrendered?
Prabhu (9): Yeah, I was thinking [Indistinct] So that means that before that... Before you became a devotee it simply wasn't taking care of it. And I think, personally, I think most of the devotees, they spend a lot of time [Indistinct] Because they think that's a promise. That, you know, this is Kṛṣṇa, let's see what I can get. Just to consider it. And...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, what's the question? What's the question?
Prabhu (9): How to reduce the sins before?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: How to reduce the sins before you became a devotee? Okay. So then, what would be the reason that you would want to reduce the sins before becoming a devotee?
Prabhu (9): Because you have to suffer for them in devotional life.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Because you have to suffer for them in devotional life. And so, what is the problem with suffering them in devotional life? Huh?
Prabhu (9): You don't want to suffer.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You don't want to suffer. [Laughter] Okay. So... So then, it is purely a subjective idea that...
Prabhu (9): Do you have to do prāyaścitta along with devotional service?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Do you have to do prāyaścitta along with devotional service? So, why? Where do you get the idea that prāyaścitta has ever removed any previous sins? And the idea that devotional service won't remove it?
Prabhu (9): The idea? Because you have to [Indistinct] the sins committed in devotional life. After the... [Indistinct] By accident. You will be taken care of.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, okay. Okay. So then, if you are quoting me on it, then... Then we have to look at what we might have meant. [Laughter]
So... You can take... You can take the devotee before he has become a devotee. Right? But that is not so important in devotional service. Whatever one has done, that is not what is important, it is what you are doing now. So now... What you do now is in what field? Right? The situations you will find yourself in today are based on what? Where did those situations come from?
Prabhu (9): Previous karma.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Previous karma. So, do we have to address previous karma separately, if all the situations that you are going to perform your devotional activities in now, happen now? You know what I'm saying? Like, we don't need to address the seed of the tree when we have the fruit of the tree in front of us. What we have to address is the fruit. The point is, is now if that fruit is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, then there is no more seed. But if we don't engage it in Kṛṣṇa's service, then another seed will be planted that will again give the same fruit. Does that make sense? So for the devotee, he doesn't worry about what has happened before. He worries about what he does now with the results of what he did before.
Prabhu (9): Hmm.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Does that make some sense? Because otherwise, then it is thinking in the past. Right? Bhaktiviṇoda Ṭhākura told, you know, you shouldn't worry about the past that sleeps.
Prabhu (1): Nor the future.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, nor the future.
Prabhu (9): But is it not... Is it not... Are you not allowed to think when you get some suffering in devotional service, let's say...?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Are you not allowed to think? Okay, so there is a problem here that you are feeling that there is some restriction, there is some mind control here. [Laughter] You don't have the freedom to think the way you want, when you want, how you want. You know what I'm saying? Do you understand? Take that as a point. You know what I am saying? In your own life, know that that is an attachment, freedom of thinking. Does this make sense? So then, then you will be able to understand how you perceive and apply everything else. because freedom of thought is important. See, because everybody has their particular attachment. So the ability to think freely how you want, like this, though within the constraints of śāstra, Guru, sādhu, śāstra, that is there, but that is important. So that means, then the elements of mukti are going to be where more attachment lies. Right? Because everybody has their attachment to dharma, artha, kāma or mokṣa, or any combination. So then, that becomes the place. So then that will give rise to things like, you read in Kapila Muni's devotional service of the mode of goodness. There is an attachment for that things shouldn't go wrong. There is an attachment that "I don't want to take up any activity or service that will create problems." Right? So it is an attachment to detachment. So it is fine as a place to start, but I am just saying is, know that, then it will make life easier. Like that. Otherwise, then one will become bewildered by one's own attachments, even though they may be to detachment. Like that.
Because ultimately, attachment has to be to Kṛṣṇa. That's why the gopīs are given as the prime example of devotees, rather than Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī. Because they have taken their attachment and fully engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, while Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, we have seen that he has adjusted his detachment and that he brings it in line with Kṛṣṇa, but we don't hear about his attachment. So therefore, it is not on a... It is not on his higher level. Does that make sense? So therefore, what happened in the past, you contemplate, then you know when you see, is that being done now? It is only use of contemplating the past as if it has some effect on your service today. Because what happens in the present, that is the mode of goodness. The past and the future is ignorance and passion. Right? So that is the point: in the center of being in the present is Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa is present. So you see Kṛṣṇa's presence in everything - that is being in the present. Does that make sense? So is that okay?
Prabhu (9): Yeah.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: So you can think, but only think for the purpose of figuring out: is there still something from that, some either gross activity or attachment, or is it simply some subtle fragrance of previous karma that is still affecting now? Because as a karmī, whether you have changed your mentality or not, you are going to get the reaction. Because you are still in material consciousness and you have done material activity, you are responsible for it. Because you said it is your activity, your result, so therefore you are going to get your result. But for the devotee, he has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. So therefore Kṛṣṇa takes control of that karma, so-called karma, and it is only given to us in such a way that it is going to purify the heart of material contamination. So if there is no material contamination, there is no need for a reaction from previous karma to happen. Does that make sense? You know, it is just like you go to the doctor to get rid of your sickness. So if you go and that sickness is over, he doesn't have to give you the medicine, right? But in the material world, the material disease is still there. You still have attachment to material energy, therefore then you are going to get the reaction even if you have changed your mentality because the mentality has simply gone from one mundane to another. But mundane is still there, so therefore reaction comes. But if in that area you have removed all mundane attachments and needs and misgivings and anarthas, there is no need for there to be any reaction there, so Kṛṣṇa doesn't give any. Okay? So, but if you are getting a reaction, that means there is still something there, even if you are not doing it, but you have done it in the past. If something happens to you that shouldn't happen to you, that means you did it in the past and never got the reaction for it. You know what I am saying? You have stolen the last life, you were not punished for it by the king, you didn't do any form of atonement. This life people will blame you as a thief even though you didn't steal. So one may say this is unjust, but no. If you look at the bigger picture, it is just the way it is. So if you are being blamed for things, it is because in the past it has been done.
Prabhu (9): Therefore I was thinking, there is no extra prāyaścitta...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, extra is... Means, you want extra prāyaścitta, you know, you have devotional service and something extra? So you just do extra devotional service. [Laughter] Because there is nothing more powerful, that is what the 6th canto is about. Because in the 5th canto, then the whole universe has been described and how everyone got in those positions. Means, you have 14 planetary systems and so many species of life and conditions of life. So all of those are due to previous karma. So then 6th canto then shows how prāyaścitta has nothing to do with devotional service because devotional service is the real prāyaścitta. So you have retribution, like in Manu, the 11th chapter is dedicated to retribution. But the 12th chapter... So that gives all, "You have done this and this is your prāyaścitta, you have done this, this is your prāyaścitta. If you don't do your prāyaścitta, this is what species of life you need to take birth in," and all these things. But the 12th chapter is on the ultimate retribution, which means getting out of the material world. So that is the higher principle. So maybe you are not doing that activity, but the mentality is still there on another level, and it is maybe being applied somewhere else. So therefore it comes just so that we will give up that mentality.
Prabhu (9): Then you have to recognize it.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You have to recognize it. So that's where you get your opportunity to intellectualize. And Kṛṣṇa is giving you 6 chapters in Gītā just to do that. So the 13th to 18th chapter, He has shown you techniques of mental gymnastics that you can dive and surface in and taste and apply again and again. You know what I am saying? That's what it is for. He has explained the overall usage of them in the 4th and 5th chapter. But the 13th to 18th He explains you how to apply them. You know, especially up to the 17th. 18th is like the conclusion, putting that all together. So then you should use it to advantage. You know what I am saying? Like that. There is no problem because body, mind, words. Words means the intelligence and it means the senses. So then the intelligence connected to the senses, that is how you view the world. And then you intellectualize on that. You don't leave the senses with the mind - that is body. But words means senses with intelligence. Does that make sense?
Means, senses come out of the mode of passion. So they are technically connected to the intelligence. But the senses are engaged according to the value system of the mind. Therefore the mind becomes the 11th sense, so that means that is the body. The mind engaging the senses, that is through the body. The intelligence engaging the senses, that is to acquire information to intellectualize on, to come up with conclusions. Does that make some sense? So there is a difference there. So the body are engaged in the senses, but the mind... I mean the... Body means with the mind. So body, mind, words. So you can also take a body meaning your identity, who you think you are. Or you can take body to be the gross body, yeah, and then who you think you are in relationship to that. The mind would be your desires, your needs, everything like that. So generally we connect those two, the body and the mind. But the words means it is connected to intelligence. Does that make sense? So, in other words it is catching all the elements of the false ego. Because false ego is also intelligence and senses. Does that make sense?
Prabhu (9): [Indistinct] How do you get this sense...?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: How do I get these answers [Indistinct]? [Laughter]
Prabhu (9): It's like what you said about giving examples. It's precisely what's happening with my mind. You have just give me an example. [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: [Laughter] Means, whatever. Kṛṣṇa is... Kṛṣṇa is... You have to ask someone else now. [Laughter] But let's see. Something more on what you were saying? Then we will get to you.
Prabhu (10): So that... Now I see this is a... Which we call the... Unaddressed for, you know, dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa. So then the problem I am seeing though... Because I have gone over this in my head before, is to even begin to try to address or help or whatever it is these... Things that aren't taken care of, these loose ends [Indistinct] it is not possible to continue the service, to a degree, it would just hinder the service. And to address things like... Like Prahlāda Mahārāja says, you know, to take care of the problem is worse than to tolerate the problem. But I can't tolerate it either.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: So then that means... If you can't tolerate the problem, then that means you have to address it. Now one thing in there that you need to do is focus. That has to be there. And you have to move forward. Don't keep moving, go back, move, go back, move, move, go back. You just have to take it and move forward.
Prabhu (10): It... If it's...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, this I am talking about a mentality.
Prabhu (10): Okay.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Because the problem is, is you will start forward, but then what about this? And then what about that? Like this. You won't get anywhere. The point is, is you can only take care of basically one thing at a time. Or things that are directly connected to that one thing. Okay? So you focus on that, do that. Right? If you're doing book distribution, you can't be, you know, doing your laundry.
Prabhu (10): Okay.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Right? So, therefore, you focus on that. Then when it is time to do your laundry, you only do your laundry. You know, when it is time to study, you only study. When it is time to chant your rounds, you only chant your rounds. Otherwise then what happens is all of them get mixed up at once and there is no focus, so you don't actually move forward. So you need to focus so that you make, so that you get results. Otherwise, you are just going to lament because you can never make a decision then. So you have to be able to make a decision. Focus, make a decision, move forward, but do it with detachment. Because if it is not working, then you have to reassess and then find how to adjust that focus that then you get a better result. Right? You can't be stubborn. You have to be determined, not stubborn. Stubborn means, "I have decided I am going to do it this way and that's it." So when you run into an obstacle, then you just doggedly keep going in the same way. Determined means you will make adjustments, but you won't change your goal, but you will see that some detail may have to change. Right? Does that make sense? You have decided, "I'm going to go from here to there in the shortest possible way." But in the way there is a wall. So stubbornness is, "I'm going to try to go through the wall or over the wall" or something like that. Determined means, "I'll go around the wall." Because I still have my goal in mind. Stubborn means you kind-of forget your goal and your method is almost more important than your goal. Determined means your goal is more important. And so then the method you will adjust as you go, according to time, place and circumstance. Does that make some sense? Okay.
So then you just have to take each one of them. What are the emotional things that don't go away? What are the sensual things that don't go away? What are the economic or, you know, things that don't go away? What are the elements of your attachment or detachment from the material world and wanting to get out of here? What are those that don't go away? Then you have to see, okay, what applies where? What āśrama, what varṇa are these best applied?
Okay, just take, book distribution is very important for you, and that basically establishes the varṇa. Unless you want to set up a, you know, book distribution meaning that you are going to get books from the warehouse and distribute it to all the, you know, book stores and stuff like that, and then you are going to take your cut off, then it becomes business. But otherwise, then, you know, if you are going to go out and talk to people and get them, convince them of the validity of this book and how it is important in their life and then take a donation from them for that, then it is brahmnical.
Prabhu (10): I don't understand, book distribution establishes the varṇa? Maybe I don't know what varṇa means?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Varṇa means your occupation in which you maintain yourself. Okay, so in other words, through your book distribution, you are either distributing books, taking a certain cut of that that the temple allows, you are buying books from the temple at a certain rate and then you sell them at a certain rate. And the difference between the two is your profit that you live from. Or, you are living in the temple or whatever is the situation, you are distributing books for someone else and they maintain you. Right? So there is your varṇa.
Okay, so now you have to look at āśrama. You know, in other words, you have to see, is there a thing that you really want to be in charge of everything? Or you want to create big money, or you want to be famous for the skills that you have in salesmanship? If those aren't a big problem, then you don't have a problem in varṇa. Do you understand?
Prabhu (10): I don't understand the last thing. Then I don't have...?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Then you don't have a problem with varṇa because the only other aspects of varna are kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Right? So you don't want to... If you want to... If you need big influence, you want influence, you want control, if that is not a problem; or you want to be at the center of some very serious economics; or you want to be at the center of some serious appreciation for your skills, of your craftsmanship of salesmanship, of being able to distribute books. And if those aren't a problem for you, they don't cross your mind, then your varṇa problem is solved. Okay?
Prabhu (10): So then next is...?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Next is āśrama. Āśrama then, you have to then look at it. What is then the things that are there? What emotional, economic, sensual considerations are there? Do you... In other words, the big question is these: is your emotions taken care of outside of a conjugal relationship or not? Right? The emotional needs that still stand out in the mind, are they taken care of by a conjugal relationship or not? Does that make sense?
Prabhu (10): Yeah.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, so if they are taken care of outside the conjugal relationship, then you have to look at brahmacārī, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Right?
Prabhu (10): You can't force this thing, it's either this is my karma, this is what I got, [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: It is not a matter of force or not force, it is just a matter of looking what is there. Just like you would like to take prasāda, right? And you go into where they keep the prasādam, and what is there is some kicharī. So now, is it force that you... That is, that's what's there. You know, if you went there and all there was was halava, then you either fast or you eat halava. So it is not a matter of force, it's just a matter of dealing with what is there. So if you look at force, then you look at there is the principle of not willing to do, and then not willing to do means inactivity. So, inactivity means ignorance, ignorance means lack of focus. So this is what we talked about in the beginning, is due to the attachment to the freedom of activity, then it develops ignorance. Because the freedom of activity means "I don't do this," but it is not that I have an alternative, because the confusion is what I should do. But there is a thing of "I don't know if I want to do what I am being told. I am doing it because I am dutiful and it should be done. But as far as the heart, I'm not doing it because I want to be independent." But that independence creates ignorance, so it creates lack of focus. So then the whole question comes up. Do you understand?
Prabhu (10): No.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You don't? Does anybody else understand?
Prabhu (13): Yeah.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. So, in other words, difficulty is there because of the... Even though you are dutiful and you work, the concept that you are having to do work that someone else is dictating is a problem, and so then that creates a desire to not be active, which is ignorance, because inactivity is ignorance.
Prabhu (10): That's if you don't want to do the work?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: That's if you don't want to do the work. But I am talking on the principle of, otherwise why is it a problem for you? "Am I forced to do this? Do I..? Where is my freedom?" Right? We discussed because there is two. Means, in other words, you can take it down to this two basic problems. Right? Is freedom in control and freedom in activity, like that. You can get combinations, you can get different things. Do you understand? In the control, then there is going to be actual physical control and there is going to be intellectual. And in enjoyment, it is going to be emotional and sensual, like that. So these are the fields where your problems can come. That is the advantage, there is not that many fields. So it is easier to pinpoint the problem. So what we are trying to do here is pinpoint the difficulty, is that even though you are active and you do, but there is not a focus. Because you are saying yourself, you don't know quite what to do and how to deal and how to articulate and how to get down to what the point is.
Prabhu (10): Well, [Indistinct] having the problem, where the problem lies.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, if you know where the problem lies, then say the problem.
Prabhu (10): So, that's in the emotional and sensual.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, it is in the emotional and sensual. So now, is that emotional and sensual needs, it appears, it is not taken care of by the āśrama that you are situated in now and the facilities you have. Okay, so that means it has to be extended.
Prabhu (10): Well, but I don't want to extend, that's my problem. [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, you don't want to extend it.
Prabhu (10): But it needs to be taken care of.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, okay, now why don't you want to extend it? Because it's trouble.
Prabhu (10): Yeah, it is...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: It's trouble and that trouble will cramp your style. You can't be as independent in your activities.
Prabhu (10): I'm sorry?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You can't be as independent in your activities.
Prabhu (10): I can't be independent?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You can't be as independent in your activities as a gṛhasta, as a brahmacārī.
Prabhu (10): Right. [Laughter]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: That is the point. So therefore, it is a trouble. Means, what you would get, benefit you want to get from the gṛhastha āśrama, the trouble it will take, is not worth it to you at this point.
Prabhu (10): Right. That's because...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: So therefore, yes. So, you either have to emphasize that more, intellectualize on that more, to remove the need for those things that are offered by the gṛhasta āśrama and therefore keep yourself out of being entangled in it, and causing yourself more trouble. Or, you have to accept the responsibility, and it is a package.
Prabhu (10): Can it be intellectualized?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, you can.
Prabhu (10): Can you intellectualize this type of things away? I mean... Doesn't seem... [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, okay. So now you are saying, can you intellectualize them away or not? And you feel it is not possible.
Prabhu (10): Maybe it is.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, I'm saying, the śāstras recommend it, but it is like this: How do you know, when you are eating, that you are satisfied?
Prabhu (10): You [Indistinct] know.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. So, in the same way, you will know whether you can intellectualize it or not. So, in other words, in this situation, you can't.
Prabhu (10): Maybe if I intellectualize in a certain way or something? Just like certain things you can eat, and you won't be satisfied with it, because you require other things.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, so then, yeah. So then, if you want to intellectualize, that means you have to intellectualize on, you have to contemplate its worthlessness.
Prabhu (10): Its worthlessness?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes. It doesn't have any worth. Okay, what emotional, sensual support you will get in the gṛhastha āśrama, for you, is worthless.
Prabhu (10): It seems to me like a headache.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, it's a headache, but it's not worthless. No one said, any duties... Now, just like this. Now, is there any problems in book distribution? You like book distribution, but are there any problems?
Prabhu (10): Of course.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, but are they actually a problem for you?
Prabhu (10): No, it's ecstatic.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, okay, so that's the whole point. If you accept the whole package, the obstacles or the difficulties aren't a problem.
Prabhu (10): But they stop me from book distribution.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, no, here.
Prabhu (10): Is it okay for me to ask all these questions in a group setting?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, yes. Yeah, of course, everybody has the same problems. [Laughter] Just they won't say... It's not a problem. If it was a problem, you would be the only one sitting here.
Prabhu (13): You got the same problem everybody else has.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Everybody has the same problems, but they are embarrassed to say it.
Prabhu (10): [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: At this situation... Yes, but the point is, is...
Prabhu (10): [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, but the point is, is you are doing it, so therefore it is not a problem.
Prabhu (13): It's bravery.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, it is bravery, so therefore it's not... Everybody... It is appreciated. Devotees appreciate it. Because they don't know how to act, and so...
Here, now listen. So, the worth... Now, the point is, is that you have to get your books. You have to put them in a bag. You have to carry them. They are heavy. You have got to find places to stick them when you want to go into bathrooms. You have got to stay out of the way of authorities that don't like you distributing books wherever you distribute books. So, it is problems, right? But because you have accepted the concept of book distribution, the happiness you get from it over... outweighs the problems.
Prabhu (10): Right.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Right. Okay. Now, the same is there in gṛhastha āśrama. If you have accepted it...
Prabhu (10): The same...?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: The same principle is there in gṛhastha āśrama. If you accept the principle of it, that there is going to be all these obstacles, you just accept these principles, then what you are looking for you can get and you won't mind the problems, at least for 25 years. Then when the problems become too much, then, when they outweigh the benefits, then Kṛṣṇa has arranged this wonderful thing called vānaprastha. Vānaprastha is a gṛhastha where the benefits, I mean where the problems outweigh the benefits. And a gṛhastha is one who the benefits outweigh the problems. Okay. Do you understand? That is the difference between the two.
Prabhu (10): Well, that's one side. The other side is intellectualize it away.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, but I'm saying, try it.
Prabhu (10): Try which?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Intellectualizing. If it works, great. Why go through the problem? Because it is a problem. But if by intellectualizing on it and contemplating it, seeing its worthlessness, it doesn't go away, then you should address it.
Prabhu (10): Well, within the intellectualizing option. Just like, for instance, you gave the example of eating, this is a very good example. I have health problems. I can only eat certain things. So to get the nourishment I need, I have to be very careful what I eat. So similarly, in intellectualizing, you can try to intellectualize or eat certain things and it might not satisfy the thing. But you can eat another thing or intellectualize in another method or fashion, it may satisfy the thing.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah.
Prabhu (10): So then in, just like we have to consult a health practitioner, so intellectualizing it we consult an intellectualized person or something.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. So then, the point is, is you have to look at, okay, you take the particular emotional need or sensual need. What actual benefit you get from it? What is actually there?
Prabhu (10): [Indistinct] ...just chilled out for a few minutes.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. So then, the whole point is, is that is the negative side of it. Okay, that's there. On the positive side, why is it even there? What is actually gained from it? This is the harder side. The easier side is finding the fault in it, and that is always recommended because that will get you long enough through brahmacārī āśrama, that you will have studied nicely, been trained nicely, developed good habits, controlled the senses, all that. But it doesn't necessarily look it straight in the face. Because the first stage is to see what is wrong with it. If that gets rid of it, great. That means you have already faced it before, and in this life, there is a little bit left, some fragrance and then the intellect, you see its worthlessness, it goes away. That is the naiṣṭhika-brahmacārī.
The upakurvāṇa-brahmacārī means that he sees the worthlessness of it and then deals, then uses that to advantage so that he can get in his studies and practices and all that, so he gets situated nicely as a brahmacārī. Because a good brahmacārī will make a good gṛhastha. Because without sense control, without direction in life, without a service attitude, without sensitivity, then no man can be, will be respected by any woman. So without that you don't... It means, a gṛhastha has to be a brahmacārī, plus he applies those principles in the gṛhastha āśrama. If he is not a brahmacārī, he will not be respected by a woman. So he has to become one, if he wants to deal. So he has to become a brahmacārī regardless.
If by becoming a brahmacārī, it removes his need for gṛhastha āśrama, great, you save yourself 25 years. If not, then now you have the foundation with which you can be a good gṛhastha. Because if there is no respect from women, what is the use being involved? Because it's like Prabhupāda tells the story of the man who was traveling out in the desert. And he was so thirsty, and he only came across a house and he asked for a glass of water, and they were Muslims?
Prabhu (10): Oh, yeah.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: And the guy came and he gave him half a glass of water. And then he is lamenting, "I have lost my caste and my thirst is not satisfied." So that is the whole point. This commitment is important, that you have to be a committed brahmacārī. He goes into a committed gṛhastha life. Then he will fully get what is required from it. Otherwise, he is neither a brahmacārī nor a gṛhastha. It is useless, and women don't respect people who are not brahmacārīs. So therefore they walk all over that man. So neither is he emotionally satisfied, but he still had to do the same work and didn't get paid for it. You know what I am saying? Because the point is, is payment comes by emotional feeling. The man looks at it, you know, one rupee is exchanged for one rupee of goods. Right? And from that then, you know, "I have done this much service, I get that much service back." But the woman is, the quality of that service, what emotional content was there, that much emotional content you will get back. And because they are more intense, they are nine times more intense, they achieve the same quantity of intensity in one ninth of the time. Right? This is a very important formula if you want to go into the gṛhastha āśrama, the nine to one formula, like that. Is, you are going to put in nine parts, you are going to get back one. Right?
Prabhu (10): The man puts the nine parts?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Then he is going to get back one. Talk to the gṛhasthas, they will tell you all that. See, is that it functions because the emotion that goes into the man's nine parts of endeavor...
Prabhu (10): Is equal to one part...?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: ...is equal to one part of one of the woman's because the emotional content is more.
Prabhu (10): [Indistinct] ...they are much...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, so therefore, that's why the need of sensitivity, this and that. But now, if the emotional content is not there, you are going to put in the nine parts, and God only knows what you are going to get back.
Prabhu (10): Nothing.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, so you are going to be frustrated. So that's why focus must be there. That's why we keep coming back to this focus. You have to be committed to whatever it is. If it is brahmacarya, the focus on that is done, if it is gṛhastha, then it is done. Otherwise you get nothing from either. You know what I am saying? That focus is important. So then, therefore, you focus on it. What is it? It is useless. Therefore, okay, it is useless. Then if that gets rid of it, great. But if you see it is useless, I accept, but it still comes back in the mind, what is coming back in the mind? What is that that is coming? What is that feeling, or what is that emotion? Then you have to look that straight in the face.
Prabhu (10): [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: That's.. To do that, you will either face it, get rid of it, or that will be the... What do you call it? The...
Prabhu (10): The camel and the straw?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, the one that, you know, that's... You know, the thing that puts you into the gṛhastha āśrama. What do you call it?
Prabhu (14): The straw that broke... The whip... [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, the straw broke the camel's back, or the nail in the coffin.. Oh, no, there is linchpin, I think that's what it is called, linchpin, that's like the working thing. Means, in other words, if you can affect... If you can, within your mind, take the emotions and the sensual things that are a problem, face them, look at them, analyze them right down to the bottom, because every one of them has an end... Because they are all material, so they are temporary, they are not eternal. If you can get all the way to the bottom, then you can remain a brahmacārī. If halfway through it creates so much desire in the heart, that you have to fulfill them, then you need to get married. And the desire will be there to get married. So, that part of the process will make it very easy to go one way or the other. Yes?
Prabhu (15): I was going to say, I thought it was a little controversial, but I don't know exactly what percentage of the people on this planet have, like, that attraction for the same sex. How do you... What if you have that?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: What if you have attraction for the same sex?
Prabhu (15): Yeah, and then you, you know, it's the same thing. Like, someone who has an attraction for the opposite sex, and they may be a brahmacārī, and...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Well, that's another thing, because that is a detail. The principle is the male-female. Because what is happening in male-male, or, I mean, in these relationships, is that it is the principle of the male-female interaction. But you don't appreciate the medium through the opposite sex, because it is too different.
Prabhu (15): Yeah, it is different.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: It's, it's, it's... You can't understand it. While within the same, it seems to be, appearingly, more understandable. But the problem is, is you still have to apply the male-female principle. So, it actually, it is not... How you say? It is not complete, and it's that, okay, it is only a male-male or female-female relationship, but it is not, actually. It is just that it is more easy to understand. You know? So, that is at least seemingly easy to understand, because actually, it is probably easier to make a boy-girl connection than it is to make a boy-boy, girl-girl. It is much more sensitive, more delicate, it can be broken so much more easily. You know? Because of the nature of it. It is just like, let us say... Let us say, you have a problem outside your family. It's a problem.
Prabhu (15): Yeah.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, I m just saying, any problem. But now, if the same problem comes from within your family, it is more intense.
Prabhu (15): Right.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Right? In other words, you can handle a problem from outside your family, but not from inside.
Prabhu (15): Yeah, yeah...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, in the same way, it is more delicate and sensitive. Therefore, the male-male, female-female, it is more delicate, it is more sensitive, and it can handle, actually, less problems, even though, seemingly, they are more common. You know what I am saying? It is much more... Yeah, does that make some sense? So, the emotions that you are dealing with there are actually more intense. The jealousy, the envy, the attachments are greater. So, it is just another trick of Māyā. It looks like it is a solution, but it is not. Because, means with her, you can't win. You can't... You can't... What was it? You can't win, you can't quit, and you can't break even. [Laughter] Like that. So, that's just Māyā. So, she has these different ways to drive you nuts. Yeah, it's a lose-lose. So, therefore, that's why, in any case, it doesn't matter, these principles apply to anybody. But the standard is there, it is male-female. You know, in its external cultural manifestation. That is the natural because... But, that is not the... The principle is, is one has to deal with it anyway. Because, the point is, it doesn't matter if they are... If they're... How to say? What is their proclivity, they still have to be celibate. Right? You know, so that is the principle. A gṛhastha brahmacārī means he is still celibate. In other words, he is only engaging his senses in the sense objects according to sacrifice. So, it is still the same principle.
Prabhu (15): Right. It is still there [Laughter]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, the same principle applies. So, it doesn't matter.
Prabhu (15): That's true.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. So, therefore, we can accommodate any position someone comes from, but we don't authorize it. Do you understand? In other words, we can accommodate that mentality and show them how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, but we don't authorize it. Because authorization doesn't make it work any better. Means you have to function by the scriptures, like that. So, does that make some sense?
In other words, you have to face and see, are those emotions, what you actually gained from them? What is their value? What is actually their worth? Because the mind only accepts things that it finds worth in. So, if your mind keeps going back to them, that means even though your intelligence says there is no worth, your mind still says there is some value to it.
Prabhu (10): That is what I was going to ask. Now, these are all... Everything is coming from the spiritual world, they are all, it's a reflection. So, that emotion, that exchange, that whatever, is of the soul with Kṛṣṇa.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah.
Prabhu (10): But because right now I am envious of Kṛṣṇa, and I have gotten myself here as a result, there is no exchange with Kṛṣṇa.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah.
Prabhu (10): So, that exchange is rustling up (?) naturally.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, of course. So, now the point is, is you can either connect it directly to Kṛṣṇa, or you see Kṛṣṇa through the elements of the universal form. In other words, you may have an attachment to women, but the feminine principle is Kṛṣṇa's potency in the form of woman. So, it is still Kṛṣṇa. That is why Kṛṣṇa then says in the scriptures, how He wants to be dealt with as the universal form. Because you deal with a woman, you deal with them the way you like, but you are still dealing with Kṛṣṇa's energy as feminine energy. And Kṛṣṇa doesn't want to be dealt with like that, therefore, there is sin.
Prabhu (10): Therefore what?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: There is sin. So, that's why when you take it to the metaphysical platform, as Kṛṣṇa, on the metaphysical platform, you are dealing with the energies and the potencies and the interaction, the feminine energy has a nature. The masculine energy has a nature, and there is a way that you can combine them. If you don't combine them in that way, it is sinful. If you combine them in the right way, it is pious. And if you connect it to Kṛṣṇa, then it has some devotion. So, the point is, is then you have to see Kṛṣṇa in it. You can't just do with women what you want. Because that nature of woman is Kṛṣṇa. Because that is what you are looking for, right? Means that is what is within it. Just like water, it is that taste, that quenching of the water, that is Kṛṣṇa. Right? Just like you take water and distill it, no taste. So, even though technically it should be satisfying, it is not. So, the same way is, what you are looking for in that, that is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the mantra, He is the ritual, He is the performer, He is the results. So, the same way, He is the masculine principle, He is the feminine principle, He is the interaction. So, that is why if it is Him, it has to be done the way He says it should be done. So, that is the point, is you have to look at it and see what is it you want.
Prabhu (10): So, then I understand what does I want. This doesn't fit in the way He wants it done. So, then it's useless...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, it is useless, but therefore you have to take it and string it out.
Prabhu (10): String it out?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, what you want to do is not going to happen in, you know, one week. It is going to take you 25 years. You know what I am saying?
Prabhu (10): But it won't take 25 years because what I want to do doesn't fit in with the program. You know what I mean?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: The point is is, what, if you look at it, what is the element within the program? It always fits in because Kṛṣṇa has created it.
Prabhu (10): But you were saying about the 9 to 1 thing, it won't work. You know what I mean? I mean, that's what you were saying. You were saying, it makes sense.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, no, it won't work, but it is what you got to live with. If you understand that, then you don't mind it. So, it helps you develop sense control, patience, tolerance. You have to be very sense controlled, patient and tolerant to deal with the 9 to 1 principle. So, if you didn't develop it fully as a brahmacārī, you are going to have to develop it as a gṛhastha.
Prabhu (10): So, it is like tough luck, this is the cards you dealt with?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, it is tough luck, this is the cards that you are attached to. You dealt them.
Prabhu (10): I got myself one...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You dealt the cards, you picked them up off the table and now you are looking at them.
Prabhu (10): But I can't put them down, I'm too attached to them.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: That's right.
Prabhu (10): It's a problem.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, now that is the point, so you got to live with it. Main thing you have to get off is that someone else dealt these cards to you. Because then there is a sense of justice and sense of wrong. No, you dealt the cards, so now you either put them down or deal with them.
Prabhu (10): I'm still going back to.. [Indistinct] I wish there was some way to intellectualize why...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: So, try it. Try it. My point is is, try it. Then you are going to see what it is that is important. Because it is not much.
Prabhu (10): What it is that is important... [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, as karmīs they have manifold what is important for them. The devotees, it is only a few things.
Prabhu (10): [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means there's only a few things that are important and you keep those simple.
Prabhu (10): For example?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: For example, okay. Man is thinking from woman he will get service and he will get emotional support. Right? That's, basically covers it. As long as you understand emotional support includes the senses because women don't distinguish between emotions and senses. So, in dealing with emotions the senses come naturally. Depending upon the intimacy, your worth, then they come more or less. So, this is what man is looking for in the relationship with woman. Right? So, then to do that, then there is a lot of work. You want service, that means you got to put in nine times service, whatever service you want back. And whatever emotions you want back, you got to put in nine times the amount.
Prabhu (10): That's kind-of hellish deal. [Laughter]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah? Yeah, I'm just saying, it is the women who are stupid in that they want things to be equal. Because according to the Vedic dealing it is way out of balance. You know, I mean, the cards are stacked. You have to remember, Māyā is a woman, she runs this place. [Laughter] So, she kind of favors her own kind. [Laughter] She just stays out of it because it's not worth getting involved. So, it's... See, they only make this... Because when they say 50%, you have to understand where that 50% is. In other words, it is 9 to 1, that's already been accepted. But what they are talking about in 50% is your 1.
Prabhus: [Laughter] [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah? In other words, they want 50% of your 1.
Prabhu (10): That's a better deal for me.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, then you only get 1/18th instead of 1/9th.
Prabhu (10): [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Right, that's right. They are not stupid. Stupidity is on the spiritual platform, it is not on the material platform. They are four times more clever than men. Four. These are where the proportions go. They eat twice as much. That doesn't mean physically. But what they desire, what they want it for and everybody they got to have for them. Man will go to a feast, eat, go away. Woman goes to a feast. She'll eat. She keeps for, you know, this friend. Keeps for the husband, keeps for the kids, keeps... Like that.
Four times more clever. So, they figure out how to manipulate the material energy four times better than men. Six times as envious, so that is a problem. And nine times as lusty, means there is nine times more desire in everything. Lust doesn't just mean sex. Lust means desire. So, whatever man's desire, nine times, that is there. That is where the nine to one formula comes from.
So, the point is, is this is what you got to deal with. If you understand that and it looks it is not worth it, you will be a good brahmacārī. If you understand it and accept it, you will be a great gṛhastha. Because the point is, is the experience, if you operate it properly, whatever experience can be gotten will be gained. But no one ever said it would be satisfying.
Prabhu (10): Yeah, will not be satisfying.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No.
Prabhu (10): It's all over [Indistinct] where you started.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. So, therefore, if you can function on that, in other words, look at it very carefully this way. If you can do it, great. If you can't, then go in and look at it more carefully. The point is, the gṛhasta, he has the idea that he will fulfill his emotional needs in the company of a woman. By taking that up and being in that association, he understands that the soul cannot fulfill his emotional needs in the association with a material woman. Then, but, and you reflect and you see, but it was so nice, all the activities of service, of this, of that, and so many things. Then, vānaprastha means that the husband and wife have understood, it is not them being male and female and trying to fulfill their desires there that was of any use. It was engaging in Kṛṣṇa's service that was of use, therefore, Kṛṣṇa's service is more important. Therefore, we will engage in more Kṛṣṇa's service. So, it is either you can do it from a distance, by hearing about it or by seeing it, or you have to do it by doing it.
Prabhu (10): But even after, let's say, you do it, or someone does it, and then at the end, I mean, you are still back where you started... [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Of course, but that back where you started, that is the point. Brahmacārī has two paths. Naiṣṭhika means he just goes from brahmacārī straight to vānaprastha and sannyāsa, right? While the upakurvāṇa-brahmacārī goes through the gṛhastha āśrama and then comes to the same realization that the naiṣṭhika had that made him vānaprastha or sannyāsa. So, it's a, it's a... How you say? Planned, planned? There is another word. But it is a progressive plan how to get your intellectual understanding of its uselessness to realization. Because right now you are saying it is useless, but you are saying it from the intellectual platform, because it doesn't add up. So, that is the first stage.
Prabhu (10): But you... Both...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: But you have to make that practical.
Prabhu (10): Both of them have to, either way, both of them have to take all of those and put them up. We unite that with Kṛṣṇa where it is originally supposed to be.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, everybody has to unite it with Kṛṣṇa. So, that's the point. That's why there is no difference in the brahmacārī path with gṛhastha path. For us, pravṛtti or nivṛtti doesn't matter if it is connected to Kṛṣṇa. If it is not connected to Kṛṣṇa, being a brahmacārī is also useless. There is so many Māyāvādī brahmacārīs, so what? So the point is, is that is the question. It is useless. Material existence is useless. Now you have to decide, can you get rid of it just by hearing about it and seeing the uselessness of just going through it? Or do you need to go through it and see it first hand to completely satisfy the mind that there is nothing there, and then give it up? So that is the choice: Can you do it as a brahmacārī? Great. If you can't, then do it as a gṛhastha.
Prabhu (10): But what about putting it and reuniting it with Kṛṣṇa as the original answer?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Of course, that is why it is done for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhu (10): I'm sorry?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: That's why it is done for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhu (10): It is done for Kṛṣṇa?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, I am starting off on the point that you already understand that it is being done for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhu (10): Right, yeah.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: That, only within that realm we are discussing. We are not discussing following Varṇāśrama not connected to Kṛṣṇa. So we are taking already on the principle that you are connecting every aspect of that to Kṛṣṇa, because that is what we were saying before in the metaphysics, is the feminine principle you are attracted to is Kṛṣṇa. So therefore, how are you going to deal with it connected to Kṛṣṇa? Otherwise, how do you deal with it?
Prabhu (10): But that's a, that's a, I don't know how to say it with the right words, but external...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: It is external, but your desires are external, and you have got to live with that, and you have to accept that, and until you accept that, you are not going to get anywhere.
Prabhu (10): So you can take those external desires and put them into internal with Kṛṣṇa?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You can. But then do it!
Prabhu (10): I don't... That's why I am asking you...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: The point is, is emotion, Kṛṣṇa is the only place of emotion. Engaging your senses in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is the only, only way your senses will be satisfied. Taking all your emotions and putting them on Kṛṣṇa is the only way they will be satisfied. But in doing that, your mind keeps going back to women. So either pull them out of that, or then go to Kṛṣṇa through that medium. Yes, sir?
Prabhu (15): It's just sometimes you see, like, basically, I remember this about 4 years ago, 5 years ago, there was this history of devotees, you know, big, big brahmacārīs, and taking sannyāsa, and then, at 50, become a gṛhastha.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Prabhu (15): So that's... They didn't deal with it...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: They didn't deal with it.
Prabhu (15): And they just kind of held on to it, and then it's just all screwed up. Because they're going to die, you know, I mean, before they can deal with it.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, yeah. We discussed that the other day, is that they'll be dead before the daughter is married. [Laughter]
Prabhu (15): Yeah. So it's, there's a junction of, there's a time thing. So the assessment has to be made, you know, now, am I going to be a brahmacārī for the rest of my life, or am I going to have to get married?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah.
Prabhu (15): And if you... you have to be real with this, because if you are not really a brahmacārī, and, and, and, and...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Let's say you are not a naiṣṭhika brahmacārī.
Prabhu (15): Not a naiṣṭhika brahmacārī. You should get married, otherwise there's going to be a disturbance in your life later on. It's going to haunt you.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. But then, but the science has to be understood.
Prabhu (15): Right.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Because otherwise, in the past, it hasn't been. The science of attachment and detachment wasn't understood.
Prabhu (15): Right.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, it is a matter of transferring attachment, and by doing that, you are becoming detached from the material world. So, if the detachment is getting in the way of transferring attachment, you focus on the detachment long enough to start the process. Then, after that, you focus on transferring attachment. Detachment is not actually the focus.
Prabhu (15): It's attachment.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Attachment is the focus, but it is attachment to Kṛṣṇa. But because attachment means attachment to material energy, therefore, in the beginning, we focus on detachment. That's what Prabhupāda says, in the beginning, the brahmacārī pulls back from all sensual engagement to become strong. Then, when he is engaged with the senses, he is not disturbed. So, either as a brahmacārī he is not disturbed, or as a gṛhastha he is not disturbed. Because what main problem comes is right here, is this junction right now: he has the understanding that it is useless, so, therefore, most don't do it. And then they go on and on and on, and then, what they have to do is remove that understanding to go into it. And then, because they have done it, due to their false ego, then they have to defend it. And they come up with all kinds of unique philosophies on why it is good and normal and natural and all that kind of thing. But that's not the point. We don't... It has to be understood, the process of education is that understanding is the second level of knowledge. Realization is the third, and it is different. It is the natural step. So, devotees, means, he has real understanding that it is useless, but he doesn't have realization. So, now he has to think about it deeply. And then, and by practicing his service, it will either come to realization, and then there is no need for it. Or, then one needs to get married and through that, then one directly sees.
Prabhu (15): But what happened in ISKCON if there is devotees... It was kind-of like a corporate climbing culture where you are a brahmacārī, then you become a sannyāsī, and...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, yeah.
Prabhu (15): ...and you weren't really qualified, and then they develop like a hatred towards women, a culture of that was amongst the brahmacārīs...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: It is just an attachment.
Prabhu (15): It is an attachment, yeah. So that creates so many problems.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. No, it creates social problems. Well, first you are dealing with people that don't have a culture. So, then it just makes it worse. But...
Prabhu (15): The real brahmacārī is...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Real brahmacārī doesn't care.
Prabhu (15): [Indistinct] .. but it's not that he is...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Because he doesn't care. If you have nothing to gain from women, what is the problem with interacting with them nicely?
Prabhu (15): Yeah, you can be nice to them [Indistinct] ...a brahmacārī...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: That's why the women can tell who is a real brahmacārī and who is not. Men sometimes become bewildered. They may think he is a good brahmacārī, but if you are not sure, ask the women, and they will tell you if he is a good brahmacārī or not. Because the thing is, is one would think, "No, no, the women will never say he is a good brahmacārī." No. Women respect, like anything, brahmacārīs. Like that. Therefore, they have no problem in saying someone is, because they respect them because...
Prabhu (15): They're not bewildered in their association.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah.
Prabhu (15): If you're a real brahmacārī you don't get bewildered... [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Of course, there is a limit. Everybody has their strength and weakness, but in the natural just interaction that is there, then they can tell. And then they find it is okay. So, then it is there because they respect. Because they expect to see a portion of that in the men they deal with. Because that is what is respectable to women, is brahmacarya. Because they are attached, so someone who is detached, that, to them, is very impressive. So, they... And they know that their problems come from attachment. So, they know the solution is detachment. But because it is not their field, therefore, they want men who have that field. But they are willing to interact with them, that's the kindness. That's why karuṇa is the central principle of the conjugal rasa, kindness. It is not sensuality, it is kindness.
Prabhu (16): Karuṇa means kindness?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, karuna means kindness. Because Lord Caitanya is tasting the conjugal rasa, but what is... It is audārya. It is that kindness. Because that principle comes out of there. That's why it has never been given before. Because the Lord is not coming in the conjugal mood. So, kindness is the key within it. So, that's what the women are looking for. They are looking with power that is kind.
Prabhu (15): You see... You know, if I would have this kind of... When I was visiting him, it was so much better. We didn't have this type of understanding.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No.
Prabhu (15): You know, we didn't have it.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: No. Brahmacārī, they are very tough. They eat wood in the morning, you know, women, they spit on them. [Laughter] That's brahmacārī.
Prabhu (15): [Indistinct] ...they'd appreciate it, you know, all that stuff.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, it's nice... See, the point is, is Prabhupāda was dealing with what is there. He is dealing with people that their existence is women, they could not function without women. So, therefore, then, to create the detachment where they can even look at it with a balanced vision, then, first you cultivate the detachment. And even if it goes to an extreme, that identity is still within Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhu (15): [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. It is within that because their identity is there.
Prabhu (15): Yeah, yeah.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: But that's why when that sannyāsa would have a problem, Prabhupāda wouldn't excommunicate him. He would just say, okay, now function as a gṛhastha.
Prabhu (15): Right, right.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: But because we are in the same mode, therefore, then we get all high and mighty because he has done it, therefore he is out. But that is a neophyte, that decision is a neophyte decision. It is not even a madhyama, it is not even a decision of a preacher.
Prabhu (15): Right.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Like that. No one should fool themselves that these decisions where someone does something of moral... What do they call it? Inturpi...? Turpitude, like that, then they are completely put on the side. That is a neophyte mentality. And even a low-end neophyte, it is not even a high-end. Because if it is high-end, at least they know what they are dealing with, though it's tough. Because I have the same problem, therefore, when I get too close to it, I also get disturbed. That's why you see is, the more fanatic the religion, they are dealing with the more lower mentality. Because if you allow it... It's just like this: "If there isn't eternal damnation for a sin, therefore, and they can atone and be in good graces again, therefore, I can sin and I can atone, and..." Do you understand? So to avoid that, "No, eternal damnation." "Okay, then I won't do it."
Prabhu (15): Right, right.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: So that's what we are dealing with. We are dealing with... Basically, we are dealing with a Christian, a Protestant mentality. In other words, devotees are applying Protestant value system on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And the problem with the Protestant is, by definition, it's devoid of all culture, all authority and all saintly people.
Prabhu (15): [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Absolutely... All that's left is me and God, which is actually then at best, sahajiyā.
Prabhu (15): Right, yeah.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: And so with that cultural foundation, then if we try to run the society, socially, we will always fail, and even spiritually, it will be difficult.
Prabhu (15): But we can learn from it.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: We can learn from it. So, that's the point.
Prabhu (15): [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. But we have to move forward. Otherwise, if we keep it at this, then it is not going to function. You know. Okay, I think we should probably end here.
So you contemplate that. You know what I am saying? Means really, contemplate it. And first goes, you have to identify what it is you are looking for. What are those things that come in the mind? Because they come in from so many directions, it looks like unlimited. Write them down on a piece of paper, what exactly it is. And as soon as you have written it down, yes, it is a few things. As soon as you have written it down, then you start to ask, why?
Prabhu (10): What do you mean, why?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Why? Why that? Okay, what is it? Okay. They will smile at you. Okay. So, why is smiling at you important? Why do you need to be smiling?
Prabhu (10): There's no reason.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: There is a reason. Otherwise, your mind wouldn't be attached to it. That's the point. So, look for it. You want to intellectualize, I am telling you how to do it.
Prabhu (10): Okay. Thank you.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Then, look for it. Why? Why do you want them to smile? Because your mother smiled. It means that you are approved, it means you are an okay guy. That means your ego is there. It means you have an identity, it means you have some position and from that position, then you can function in life. So, if the woman smiles, there is a value to your life. If you have, if you have... What do you call it? Property in emotional dependence on women, then when they smile at you, and they are pleased, it means you have a value, and if you have a value, then you have a standing in society, you have a position from where you can function.
Prabhu (10): So, then actually it's the position that is important?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: That's the whole thing, is you have to look at what it is.
Prabhu (10): And then take that thing apart?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes. And you just keep going until you have dismantled the whole thing. And then if it's, by dismantling it, then it goes away, or, in going through it, you get stuck at some point, and that point really just grows on you, and it attacks you like a tiger. And then, then you know why you are a gṛhastha.
Prabhu (10): Yes. So, that's the method of the intellectual process?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. Like that. But, I am saying, be wary of it, ready that it is either going to make it go down, or it is going to make it go up.
Prabhu (10): Well...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You are going to be, in other words, it is going to create focus.
Prabhu (10): [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes.
Prabhu (10): So, it's good?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: It is good, because it creates focus. Now you know why you don't want to get married, or why you want to get married. Right now you don't know if you are Arthur or Martha, you know. So, that's, that's the process. Most don't like this process.
Prabhu (15): [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, that's fine. So, like that. You try it, and this is the method. This method works for everybody, because a gṛhastha still has to do the same thing. Because he is in it, and why? And he is really asking himself why. [Laughter] So, he has really got to look into it. So, either he becomes frustrated and bitter, and thinks, "It's this woman, or it's that woman. If I get a different woman, it will be better." Or he goes, "No, women are women. They are, as a principle, they are the same." And it is just a matter of figuring out, "Why is it I have attachment here? Why am I here?" Because, he is probably asking the question, and in some cases, even the woman is asking the question. You know, "Why is this guy here?" So, therefore, you have got to ask it somewhere.
Prabhu (10): [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: The main thing is, is here, is look at this. Taste is not bad, if it is connected to Viṣṇu.
Prabhu (10): What you just...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Taste in things.
Prabhu (10): [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, but connected to Viṣṇu. Because taste is probably going to be very prominent for you.
Prabhu (10): So, like I have done this to some degree, without being exact, but now I have the exact tools to use, intellectual tools to use. [Indistinct] But I can find out, like you just gave, for instance, like you said, the smile, for instance.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: You just think about it, and you are going to come down to it. It is going to come to a few things. It means, you have got how many senses?
Prabhu (10): Well, no, no, no. What I'm saying, I found things, but then...
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay.
Prabhu (10): I can't bring them down like this, I can't [Indistinct]
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Just ask why, start to pick them apart. It may be difficult today, but you start thinking about it, and slowly, slowly, it will open.
Prabhu (10): Any tools for picking?
HH BVPS Mahārāja: "Why?" - that is the tool. Why? Why is it important? Why is it of value? Why is the mind going there? What will be gained? What is the benefit of it? You know, if you are attached to an activity, what is it you are gaining from that activity? It is not the activity, it's what you gain from it. Or you are attached to a situation. No, that situation gives rise to an activity that gives rise to a result. So then, you keep following it back, and you find that it comes back to certain results that you are looking for. Okay. So, I think we should end there...
Jaya! Śrīla Prabhupāda kī jaya! Samavetā bhakta vṛnda kī jaya! Jaya Nitāi-Gaura premānande Hari Hari bol!
Prabhu (10): Thank you very, very much. It has helped me very much.
HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. I'm sure everybody else is happy you asked all the questions. [Laughter] These are questions everybody wants to ask and no one... [break]
[end]