oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

Reading from Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.11.39:

taṁ menire ’balā mūḍhāḥ

straiṇaṁ cānuvrataṁ rahaḥ

apramāṇa-vido bhartur

īśvaraṁ matayo yathā

 

tam — unto Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa; menire — took it for granted; abalāḥ — delicate; mūḍhāḥ — because of simplicity; straiṇam — one who is dominated by his wife; ca — also; anuvratam — follower; rahaḥ — lonely place; apramāṇa-vidaḥ — unaware of the extent of glories; bhartuḥ — of their husband; īśvaram — the supreme controller; matayaḥ — thesis; yathā — as it is.

Most Read

Moving to Farms – The Great Varnashrama Misconception

Translation

The simple and delicate women truly thought that Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, their beloved husband, followed them and was dominated by them. They were unaware of the extent of the glories of their husband, as the atheists are unaware of Him as the supreme controller.

PURPORT

Even the transcendental wives of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa did not know completely the unfathomable glories of the Lord. This ignorance is not mundane because there is some action of the internal potency of the Lord in the exchange of feelings between Him and His eternal associates. The Lord exchanges transcendental relations in five ways, as proprietor, master, friend, son and lover, and in each of these pastimes He plays fully by the potency of yogamāyā, the internal potency. He plays exactly like an equal friend with the cowherd boys or even with friends like Arjuna. He plays exactly like a son in the presence of Yaśodāmātā, He plays exactly like a lover in the presence of the cowherd damsels, and He plays exactly like a husband in the presence of the queens of Dvārakā. Such devotees of the Lord never think of the Lord as the Supreme, but think of Him exactly as a common friend, a pet son, or a lover or husband very much dear to heart and soul. That is the relation between the Lord and His transcendental devotees, who act as His associates in the spiritual sky, where there are innumerable Vaikuṇṭha planets. When the Lord descends, He does so along with His entourage to display a complete picture of the transcendental world, where pure love and devotion for the Lord prevail without any mundane tinge of lording it over the creation of the Lord. Such devotees of the Lord are all liberated souls, perfect representations of the marginal or internal potency in complete negation of the influence of the external potency. The wives of Lord Kṛṣṇa were made to forget the immeasurable glories of the Lord by the internal potency so that there might not be any flaw of exchange, and they took it for granted that the Lord was a henpecked husband, always following them in lonely places. In other words, even the personal associates of the Lord do not know Him perfectly well, so what do the thesis writers or mental speculators know about the transcendental glories of the Lord? The mental speculators present different theses as to His becoming the cause of the creation, the ingredients of the creation, or the material and efficient causes of the creation, etc., but all this is but partial knowledge about the Lord. Factually they are as ignorant as the common man. The Lord can be known by the mercy of the Lord only, and by no other means. But since the dealings of the Lord with His wives are based on pure transcendental love and devotion, the wives are all on the transcendental plane without material contamination.

Thus end the Bhaktivedanta purports of the First Canto, Eleventh Chapter, of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, entitled “Lord Kṛṣṇa’s Entrance into Dvārakā.”

HH Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Svāmī Mahārāja: So here the principle is knowing the unfathomable glories of the Lord. So these are not able to be known. There is an idea that we know something about Kṛṣṇa and we have, you know, learned something, we have heard some philosophy, okay, we know, we have heard we are not this body, or we have heard some other elements like this. And we know many things about Kṛṣṇa, that He is great and that, or we may even know beyond, we may know all about His different pastimes and, oh, we can say, "Okay, at this time of the day then, yes, now He is taking His breakfast and getting ready for going out with the cowherd boys and, you know, He will sneak off and when He..." He takes a hundred... What is it? Seventy-two steps or it is a hundred steps to it where He rests. Right, in the Āyurveda it mentions there is a certain number of steps that one should take after eating for digestion, so Kṛṣṇa's bed is exactly put in that place, so that when He walks that many steps, and then He takes His nap. So we may know all these things. We may even know more detail, we know so many things, His peacock feather is like this, He wears His turban like that, He wears so many pieces of cloth, and, you know, so many parts of His body like this and that. 

So this is all good, but the point being made here is still you can't know the Lord. That is, the idea is, when you know then you have control, and if you have control, you enjoy. So knowledge is an opulence, knowledge is a power, so there is always this interest to know because if I know then I can speak, right? If I haven't seen the person, I can't really make any comment, but if I find out something about them or see them, then I can start making comments, then I can establish my superiority. So then we always have to be careful that in gaining this knowledge about Kṛṣṇa it is not for the purpose of establishing our own superiority, that we are something special, something very great, but that Kṛṣṇa is beyond that. 

Because that is not what is great about Kṛṣṇa. By definition, God is the source of everything, right? He is the original person before everything, the cause of everything, the creator of everything. So that is God, that is His job description, right? So that is not what is special about God. That is just what He does. What is special is His interaction with His devotees, that is what is special. So like in this verse then it is bringing out, there is a conclusion here how Kṛṣṇa, because of the affection of the queens, then He comes under their... How do you say? Control. Seemingly under their control. So they know this much and so then they understand that, so they become the instrument for the Lord's tasting rasa. That is the point here, is that the queens through their affections and dealings, they become the instrument by which Kṛṣṇa then interacts with His devotees and tastes rasa. So He is Rasarāja. This is what is important here, is that it is through the devotees that this happens. Because He Himself is self-satisfied, He doesn't need anybody to inspire Him. He is the original person, everything is there, so He inspires Himself. Right, He is the perfect introvert, He can fully inspire Himself by being alone, there is no problem, He doesn't need someone else to inspire. But if those, if someone... But if they are there, He reciprocates, He expands that. So that is the thing, is He is perfect. This idea is... There are those who unless they are alone they can't be inspired and when they are with others then it is okay, but it is not their inspiration. Others only when they are with others, that inspires them, and they don't like to be alone. But Kṛṣṇa, He is satisfied when He is alone, He is satisfied when He is with the devotees. So here that satisfaction of interacting with the devotees, then these queens in this instance are that instrument, then He behaves in this way.

So this is the thing, it is only for reciprocation, right? This is the point. That's why they are called pastimes, that is the thing, is Kṛṣṇa takes the taste of the interaction as serious. And it is a drama, we always see, it is pastimes, He was doing this just like a dramatic actor, or He was, you know... It is constantly used, those various analogies and metaphors of Him being an actor and it being a drama. But in the material world we are too... How you say? Important for such things, right? We take ourselves very seriously, whatever we do very seriously, right? So, therefore, it is not a pastime, this is quote unquote "reality", right? But Kṛṣṇa is performing His pastimes under Yoga-māyā, and that is actual reality. We are performing under Mahā-māyā, it is not exactly what you call reality. But, of course, those within it always consider that this is real. So then they are controlled by it. But for Kṛṣṇa, He is not controlled by it, it is the natural way of interaction, right? The queens, they act in their various feminine ways and Kṛṣṇa reciprocates that. He sits with them in lonely places, He will smile, He will appear as if He is under their control, though He is the Supreme Independent. So this is the method, this is rasa.

So we see is, for Kṛṣṇa this is the ultimate rasa what we are trying to get to. Because the mundane rasa one sees, it doesn't have anything. But you can only understand there is nothing there if you know what it is, right? Let's say have never tasted a particular fruit, let's say a kumquat, so I cannot say if it is good or bad. I can make all kinds of speculations, but unless I know what it is, I can't say what it is, right? So by tasting then you can understand, it is nice, it is not nice. 

So the whole idea is is that therefore real taste of anything - spiritual, material - comes under Kṛṣṇa's direction. How Kṛṣṇa says to deal with something, that is how you are actually going to get the taste. Then by dealing with it according to that direction, then you can understand, "Yes, this has spiritual taste. I go to the temple, I behave in the right way, I interact with the devotees properly, I chant the Holy Name properly, I worship the Deity, I hear the scriptures, and then I see, yes, this has taste and this is spiritual." Or I interact with the devotees and everyone else according to social custom and everything like that in the proper way, and then I see is, it gives an experience, but it doesn't actually have any taste. Does that make sense? Then one can see, is that the real taste is in the spiritual world - that is where the real taste is. And in that Kṛṣṇa also is taking... For Kṛṣṇa it is not the smiling glances and the soberness and the shyness and the excitement of the feminine interaction; it is simply that they are making the endeavor to try to please Kṛṣṇa in that way that He tastes, and since they are endeavoring in that way, He reciprocates in that way. Does that make sense? Otherwise, if they are acting as very gentle and submissive and shy girls, then He comes in and whacks them on the back and says, "Hey, let's wrestle and let's go out and play with the frogs," then it's kind-of like, you know, "Uh, is it not for the cowherd boys...?" You know, "Yeah, okay, nice, okay, yeah..." [Laughter] You know, it is, it doesn't work that way. 

So because they presented it in that way, through that medium, He reciprocates, right? But that doesn't mean that the activity themself is what is important. This is where the term "pastime" has its meaning. Pastime means that that is not, the activity is not what is important; it is the interaction with the devotee that is important, that rasa, tasting that endeavor by them to please Him. So, in the beginning then for us form becomes important, right? We see the form, we get involved in the form of an activity, of an interaction, of anything. But it is actually not the form of it, it is the proper mood in which it is done, it is the attitude. There is something behind it that makes it work: that is what is important. And if you look at it, no one is fighting over tasting the proper mood and interaction, right? Fighting is always over the form of an activity. Does that make sense? Because the principle is the same, right? So many people have so many different ideas of how a relationship works: how does a conjugate relationship work, or a parental relationship, they have all their theories. But the principle that it works on is always the same. So they fight over the form of it, not actually how it works, because actually how it works may or may not be known. If it is known, there is no fight, it is not known, then there is fight. Does that makes some sense?

Mātājī (1): When there is fight between the husband...?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Between?

Mātājī (1): I don't understand these... If there is fight between who?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, let us say you have one person who has a theory and they write books on child raising. Like we have Doctor Spock or something, and then you have someone else who comes along and they have a different theory, right? And so, they will sit down and argue over the points of how you are supposed to raise the child. Does that make some sense? But the principles of what is a child, what is the parent and what is interaction - that is eternal principles. So then actually if one understands that, that is what actually makes it work, it is not the form.

Like you take the... What do you call it? Not Samaritans... Sumerians? S... What was it? Very tough.

Prabhu (1): Spartans.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Spartans, yeah. Okay, Spartans. The child is born, and the first thing they do is take the child over to the creek, right? And then they take the child and put it under the water, completely under the water in the creek. It is cold water and they are completely submerged, and they leave them there for a specific amount of time. The child drowns, then, you know, problem solved. If the child lives, then he is accepted as a valuable member of the community, right? Because for the... What do they call...? Spartans, their thing was fighting, so they only wanted the toughest people. They didn't want any wimps. So if the kid was a wimp, they weren't interested. [Laughter] Right? So, one could take this... And they were a very powerful community, right? You hear about them, like this, and even though there were a small amount of them, they were very strong. I think they finally got wiped out by the Persians, right? One million Persians against 300 Spartans, but it took one million Persians to wipe them out. They did get wiped out, but it took one million of them. So that was a value for them. So for them this is very important aspect of child raising. You go to another community, that may not be considered, you know, an important detail. [Laughter]

But now, what is the point? The point is is that the child is accepted by the parents, by the community as a member of that community. By that acceptance then there is felt to be a need, there is an identity, there is a value system, then the child can develop that and grow into that and imbibe that, right? So this is the detail that they took as "we will accept such a child into our community." Another community it is something else. A child has good character, or they are intelligent, or they are properly behaved, or, you know, just that they happen to be their child, or it doesn't... You know, there is some method. Does that make sense? But the main principle of being accepted by the parent, by that community, that is common. Does that make sense? So then you could have one parent saying, "You know, you took your baby out there and the baby drowned, like that. You are not a good parent." And they are saying, "No, who would want to be a parent of such a kid who drowned?" Does that make some sense? So it's just, it's... So that is the... 

Prabhu (1): That is the form.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: That is the form. So that form, there may be differences of opinion on, but the principle there will never be. So that is the whole idea is, the principle is what is important. So for Kṛṣṇa the principle is what is important. Of course, then there is a form that He sets that He prefers. Even within that there are superior and inferior forms of social interaction. 

So Kṛṣṇa prefers certain social forms, but the social form is not what is important. What is important is the mood in which it is done. So because the queens, they act in a way that is according to the tradition, that is nice, but what is important is that they are acting in that way to please Him. So the desire to please Him is actually the essence, that is the real principle. Does that make any sense? Yeah? 

So here then Kṛṣṇa comes and reveals all these things so we can actually get an idea of what we are actually looking for is something beyond what we generally think it is. Because we generally get caught up in the form, right? That form is Māyā here, but we have to transfer it to the actual, it is devotion, that is the real essence. And if that is there then naturally then the spiritual form will manifest. Means, from the proper internal form then manifests the proper external form. In the spiritual platform there is no difference. Mother Yaśodā has the motherly affection for Kṛṣṇa, therefore she manifests the motherly form. The cowherd boys have that kind of relationship with Kṛṣṇa, that is their mood, so they just develop the form of cowherd boy. 

So same here in this material world, if our purpose is to please Kṛṣṇa and make Him happy then automatically we develop the spiritual form. So that is the thing, is one has to see beyond. The material world is also a pastime, but it's not... It is inferior pastime. So we see that we do whatever we do here to please Kṛṣṇa. We are trying to make Him happy, and that endeavor is what is good, you know. Okay, we manage nicely or we develop nicely the economics, or we do art nicely, or we study and teach nicely, or whatever we are doing  - that is good because we are trying to do our best because we want to please Kṛṣṇa. But it is pleasing Kṛṣṇa that is actually important. If we don't please Kṛṣṇa then it doesn't actually have any meaning, though externally it may look good. One could say, "Yes, I have done everything perfectly," right? That is a very common mistake: we look back, "I did everything right!" but it was wrong because it didn't work. So we get so caught up in the form that we miss the point. That doesn't mean the form is not seen - that is what is Prabhupāda called the hippie mentality: "It doesn't matter," right? But it is that it is... How do you say? That one is trying to please Kṛṣṇa therefore the form is performed as best as possible and as close as possible to the form that Kṛṣṇa appreciates. Then if when that mood is there, then Kṛṣṇa is pleased, then we will be happy and everyone else will be happy. Does this make any sense? 

So we are trying to get through to that the mood is right, the attitude of devotion to Kṛṣṇa, pleasing Kṛṣṇa, pleasing the devotees - that is what we are trying to get to. And then the form may be ideal, may not be ideal, depending upon time, place and circumstance. So if we can get that right, Kṛṣṇa is pleased because that is what Kṛṣṇa reciprocates with. He is reciprocating with your mood to please Him, and then He will reciprocate through the form that you approach Him in. Does that make sense? The only reason Kṛṣṇa is reciprocating with the queens is because of their devotion to Him, and because they have approached Him as wives, He reciprocates as a husband. But the only reason... It is not because they approach Him as wives that He reciprocates as a husband, no. It is only because they approach Him with devotion, then He reciprocates the method that they approached Him through. That is your sarva-dharmān parityajya, means that is what is there. It is not that the religion is what is important, no, it is pleasing Kṛṣṇa is important. Then what aspect of religion you use to please Kṛṣṇa, that Kṛṣṇa reciprocates with. Does that make sense? Okay, is there any questions on this, or...? Yes?

Mātājī (2):  My question is: when Guru... When you satisfy Guru and the devotees, I think you... [indistinct] ...you satisfy Kṛṣṇa?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: If you satisfy your Guru and the vaiṣṇavas, do you satisfy Kṛṣṇa? Basically, you could say, yes. Because Guru is trying to please Kṛṣṇa, the vaiṣṇavas are trying to please Kṛṣṇa, so if they are pleased then that means then you please Kṛṣṇa.

Mātājī (2): Yeah, but me, I sometimes don't know how I can satisfy Kṛṣṇa, I don't know what would... I mean... Sometimes I have [indisctinct], I will make this service, so Kṛṣṇa... if Kṛṣṇa... He will want like this... Then I think I must ask or I do not ask... So then my Guru Mahārāja tell me, it is okay, then it is good. Me, I am not at all, I am not capable... I have difficulty... Sometimes if I ask my Guru Mahārāja... [indistinct]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. No, it is the tradition, is that, it is just like... Who was it? Kurva... Kuru... Rāmānuja's disciple?

Mātājī (1): Kūreśa.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Kūreśa, yes. So, Rāmānuja was standing in front of Raṅgajī, facing the Deity and, you know, taking darśana, because there it is a very small door. And standing next to the door on the side Kūreśa was facing Rāmānuja with his hands and like this. So Rāmānuja kind-of noticed and said, "The Deity is over there, you know, you got your back to the Deity." Kūreśa says, "He is your Deity, you know Him, I don't know Him. I know you, so if I serve you, you are serving Him, that way I will be serving Him."

Of course, that is a... How you say? Extreme example, but that is the pastime. Because they know the Lord, so the vaiṣṇavas, the Guru, vaiṣṇavas, they know the Lord, so we only know, we know them. So we assist them and then they engage us. They are engaged in the Lord's service, we engage in their service, we are engaged in the Lord's service, so then it works. Like that. Yes?

Mātājī (1): And then can we say that in religions, according to Christian system of religion, [indistinct]... of religion, then He will reciprocate and accept me in the way according to religion, does it not mean that different religions, there is a hierarchy?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: There is a hierarchy? Is there a hierarchy of religions?

Mātājī (1): Yes.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes.

Mātājī (1): And is that based on the reciprocation... [indistinct]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Oh, is the reciprocation on the hierarchy of religions, is that what establishes? Basically. It is just like, except for Varṇāśrama-dharma, all religions of the world, every last one, is based on fear, fear of God. So, you know, it's like they say, "He is a God-fearing man," you know, like this. So fear is the thing. So the demigods, everybody, even those within Varṇāśrama, it is fear that makes it work.

So the problem is is, that is a lower principle. It is nice, it creates discipline, there is social organization, you know, proper interaction and people do things how they should do, but because it is based on fear, fear means we don't actually know our relationship with God. Because the mood is not that of servant, it is just fear, "If I do this, God will be pleased, if I don't do this, then, you know, a thunderbolt may come and zapped, and then there is a pile of ash, or the earth will open up and I will fall inside," and, you know, it is all those typical scenarios of what we expect to happen, like that. So that is all lower. So technically only Varṇāśrama is considered actual mundane religion. Everything else is technically not on the same platform, it is all on the next platform down, which is that of extended sense gratification. Because you see is, they are all based on moral: "be good, be nice, turn the other cheek," you know, all these different kinds of things. So all it is is you are trying to,"If I am nice, then they will be nice," and so then you try to create the niceness. So niceness is just extended sense gratification, it is not technically, actually religion, it is secondary religion, it is called upadharma. Morality, Nīti, these things are secondary. They are necessary in the performance of actual religion, but they are not themselves complete. Does that make some sense? 

So, Varṇāśrama then is the form through which the actual religion can be established. But real religion actually is devotion to God. So then the Varṇāśrama becomes a better form through which to express one's devotion to God; then other religions, your contemporary religions, the non-Vedic. Right? But more focused than that is Pañcarātra as a religion because it cuts out anything that is not connected with the Deity. Everything you do is basically connected to the Deity or just connected. Like you take your bath because you want to be clean to serve the Deity; it is not as direct as offering something to the Lord, but it is just secondary. But it is not that you are being clean because if you are clean then, you know, your wife won't be disturbed, like that. And if your wife is pleased then your mind will be peaceful and therefore then you can sit down and do the Deity worship. So that is farther removed. So then Pāñcarātra as a religion is more focused, and then the Bhāgavata is completely focused because it doesn't deal at all with conditioned nature, so it is the perfect religion. Does that make sense? So that way then there is a hierarchy of religion.

Prabhu (2): What would be the minimum requirements of... [Indistinct] If we don't... If we by knowing Kṛṣṇa... philosophy... we love Kṛṣṇa, what will be the meaning of requirement to develop devotion? What would be requirement of knowledge to develop devotion?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: What is the minimum requirement of knowledge to develop devotion? We can't know everything. Basically what Prabhupāda gave in the very beginning was these three aspects: sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana. One is that we are not this body, we are servant of Kṛṣṇa, right? And two is in abhidheya, then is that service to Kṛṣṇa is our natural occupation. And the third in prayojana is that love of God, Kṛṣṇa's happiness is the goal of our life. So if we take the material energy and engage it in the Lord's service for His pleasure, feeling ourselves to be His servant, that is the essence of everything; all other philosophy expands from these three points: we are servant of Kṛṣṇa, devotion to Kṛṣṇa is our occupation, and love of Kṛṣṇa or pleasing Kṛṣṇa is our goal; everything else fits into these three categories, every aspect of philosophy or culture. So if one knows that, one will be successful. Because if you want the principle, if the detail is... I mean, the detail may not be known, but if you are trying to please Kṛṣṇa then you are trying to work out what is best, you will ask, you will inquire, Kṛṣṇa will reveal. Because that is also mentioned, is that Kṛṣṇa reveals, He descends. The whole process is, transcendental is beyond the material. We are within the material therefore Kṛṣṇa has to descend, that is adhokṣaja. The transcendental platform is aprākṛta, means it is beyond the material, but Kṛṣṇa descends into it as adhokṣaja. So that platform of gaining knowledge means it comes from the Lord, it comes, He descends into it, He empowers it, like that. Then we can... So that is on the platform of detachment, but then within... So the intelligence can appreciate, like that, but then it has to come down to the mind because the mind has to experience it. So that is... What is that? That is aparokṣa. So from that platform then we appreciate. Just like you go, there is a nice kīrtana, right, one is dancing in ecstasy and all that, but actually you are only kind-of aware of the experience of happiness, right? It is unspoken. It is there, you know it is there, but you can't really focus on it because as soon as you do it is not there, right? As soon as you stop and think, "Yes, I am, I am in ecstasy," then it is gone. 

So that is the thing, is that there is a form. That is why that is the platform of Varṇāśrama, you have to have a form in which you will taste the experience. If we say that, "Okay, when we meet then we go: 'Haribol' and 'please accept my humble obeisances' and maybe give an embrace, and then like that, this is form. In that we will taste the happiness of interacting, but if we focus on that taste of interacting it disappears because it has to have a form. That is what is, that is why you have the Varṇāśrama system, it is simply to create a form in which you can taste. Because aparokṣa you can't, you just you are aware it exists, but you can't grasp it. Now, the typical example I think is given in the Upaniṣads is that of sleeping, right? You are asleep, so you are not aware, but when you wake up in the morning you can say it was a nice sleep or it was a bad sleep, right? But if you were fully aware, "Yes, this is a good sleep," you would be awake, right? Does that make sense? So it is a very subtle point, is that what we are looking for is actually not, it is only we can tell it is there, but if you can't, you can't... So that is the top of the mundane. So Kṛṣṇa through the adhokṣaja will descend into and empower that aparokṣa platform. So if one is performing one's activities and duties in connection with Kṛṣṇa then that experience then will also be in connection with Kṛṣṇa, so you get a double experience: the one of the material element of interaction that one may be looking for, you know, that personal interaction; at the same time is the spiritual experience is there. So then with time by performing that dual path there, the true aspect you start to see that it is the spiritual that gives actual satisfaction, and the material, even though it is nice, it is pleasant, but there is no substance, there is nothing there. So then one is able to leave it. So one performs the duties, but it is not important. Does that make sense?

I think, we should probably... We will end here and then we will continue with questions whoever would like to continue, okay? 

Grantha-rāja Śrīmad Bhāgavatam kī jaya!

Jaya! Śrīla Prabhupāda kī jaya! Samavetā bhakta vṛnda kī jaya! Jaya Nitāi-Gaura premānande Hari Hari bol! 

Prabhu (3): His Holiness Bhaktividyā Pūrṇa Svāmī Mahārāja kī jaya!

[end of lecture]

Mātājī (3): [Indistinct] to surrender to authority. [Indistinct]...lack faith...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Aha, okay. 

Devotees: What is the question?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So the question is... [to the side] Haribol! We can put the wire there. So the question is is that if we are doing things because of fear, so then that may have the flavor that then we are fearful of surrendering to authority also, since fear is there, an element. So will that fear of surrendering to the authority affect our Kṛṣṇa consciousness and our spiritual development?

So being, coming from the platform of fear, then, yes, it will. Because fear is, actual basis is fear of our relationship with Kṛṣṇa - that is actually what fear is because we don't want to acknowledge that I am servant of Kṛṣṇa, because then we are dependent upon Him, we have to surrender Him and we have to trust Him, we have to give our life to Him, and then we have to deal with what He gives us, and because of lack of that faith then we want to be in control of what we will get. Because there is the idea of "I am in control, then I will get what I want and I will enjoy what I want." But, so here it means we are actually giving up control. So by surrendering, becoming a servant, we are giving up that control. But because it has been a conscious decision on our own part, one is not out of control, one is not, hasn't lost control. But that control may take a different form, like we see here, the queens. Kṛṣṇa is actually in control, but because of the relationship it appears that the devotee is in control. Because for Kṛṣṇa that is very nice, right? That is why these elements are there, they are a matter of reciprocation. Like here, if the husband behaves as if he is henpecked, then there is the most dynamic interaction between the husband and wife, because when the wife feels that there is control, then she feels there is safety. One is, she has gained something and because there is control there is safety, it will last. So then naturally she will relax, when she relaxes then she is at her best. If she is in anxiety, she is at her worst, right? So then by that principle then it's there, but the point is is that it only really works if the man is like Kṛṣṇa who is detached, and it is actually just the interaction that is important, it is not who is in control or not in control, it is that the sincere endeavor to please. Does that make sense? So it appears that one has lost one's control. 

So does that make sense? For the man, it appears he has lost his control, like that. At the same time is the woman is in control, but she is in control within the field that is set by the man, you know, the wife is submissive, she renders service, she is favorable, all these different elements of chastity. But within that field she is in control. The field has been created by the man, but the wife is in control of it. If she steps outside of that field then there is no relationship. So both are controlled, both have to surrender, right? So that principle comes from, the original is that we don't... We want to enjoy, so therefore then there is the idea that "If I control I will enjoy, therefore I become God and I don't see myself as servant," and because of that then there is fear. So any other fear is because of that, because we are afraid, physically afraid or... [Laughter] Something, you know, then that is because of we are going to lose the body, the bodies are method of control, that is how we enjoy through. So we are afraid of losing that, while for the devotee, they have the body, they lose the body, it doesn't matter to them because if they lose it they will gain their spiritual form. They are always going to be with Kṛṣṇa, always be serving Kṛṣṇa, so for them it doesn't matter. That is why the devotee is fearless, that is why that principle is always mentioned: one should become fearless because fearlessness then is important. That is important.

Mātājī (3): Still we have to be afraid of Māyā?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: We are afraid of Māyā because that makes us forget Kṛṣṇa.

Mātājī (3): But if we fully surrender then we actually should not have fear of Māyā because we know that perfection will be coming from Guru and Kṛṣṇa, that they will protect us from Māyā?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, yeah. So the point is that, being made, that therefore if you fully surrender, Kṛṣṇa will protect us and then we can be assured of that protection, so there is no need of fear.

This doesn't mean that in this we don't use intelligence. Because there is this idea of that... This sentimental idea of surrender. But surrender means body, mind and words. So we will surrender the body, we may even try in some ways to surrender the mind, but sometimes we don't surrender the intelligence, or we will surrender the body and not the mind. So we are performing the activities, but we actually haven't really surrendered to it. But that, it is not sentimental, means the sentiment may be involved, but one is using one's intelligence, so one is not cheated. We see, Prabhupāda in his dealings was always very personal and very perfect in all interaction, but no one could cheat him, right? So this is the balance, everything here is always, there is always two things happening at once. If it is not then it is, you know, it is called a rock or it is a dead man.

Mātājī (3): But Kṛṣṇa also will never cheat us, so if we surrender then Kṛṣṇa will give us protection... [indistinct]...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yes, yeah. So Kṛṣṇa... Mātā makes the point that Kṛṣṇa will never cheat us, so ultimately it will work. That's... 

But at the same time is, we still have to be, the mind and intelligence have to be in tune with that. Because otherwise Kṛṣṇa is not cheating; anything that happens to a devotee, Kṛṣṇa is in control of and is happening for the devotees benefit. But because of attachment to the material energy the devotee may not see that. Because there is the elements of ārtaḥ, arthārthī, jijñāsuḥ [Bg 7.16] of why we surrender. So then for us then religion means that those will be alleviated: "I don't have a facility, I will gain facility. I have anxiety, anxiety will go. I don't have knowledge, I will gain knowledge." So, so much of the time then we see is that we don't want difficulty, so if difficulty comes then there has got to be something wrong with the religion. Because religion means you perform an activity, you get a result, it is fruitive. So that's why when you go up is, anything below Varṇāśrama is automatically fruitive: no ifs, no ands, no buts. As soon as you get to Varṇāśrama, it could be fruitive or it could be non-fruitive. When you go up into Deity worship, you can use it in a fruitive way, but that is not its purpose; if you do it is in the mode of passion. But then also then on that platform of liberation is also fruitive. So only devotion is not fruitive. So that is why then you have to perform your duties with detachment for Kṛṣṇa, because detachment is not enough. I am detached because I know I will get a better result. It takes some faith to know that, it is just like someone has money, it doesn't seem right that if I give it away I will get more, no, I have it, so I keep it. But that is the principle, you have to have faith that if I give in charity I will get more back. So there is detachment and it is all... Everything is worked into this detachment, always worked into everybody's occupation, and by that you will get more.

Mātājī (3): So faith is very important...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So yeah, without faith nothing functions, that is why any interaction can't disturb faith. Anything that disturbs faith is not a properly applied action. So, therefore it may be in the name of so-called truth or justice, but it is just nonsense. Say what they like, it sounds good, because nowadays truth and justice, they are platitudes that are politically correct, so people buy it that all you have to do is pull those out of the hat, or a little sentiment, and everybody should leave you alone, you will get success, right? It is the completely fruitive platform: "I want success, so therefore I will come out from these platforms." But the point is is, this is not the reality. It is not just and it is not truth; if it breaks faith, because faith is what you are trying to get, you cannot call it truth, you cannot call it justice.

Mātājī (3): What you can't call justice?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Something that breaks faith. You know what I am saying? Because the point is is, one is supposed to move forward, because without faith you cannot move forward. But because we are coming from a faithless background, means, material consciousness, therefore breaking of faith is just kind-of like normal. Dogs bark and, you know, mundaners break faith. Because if you break faith you maintain material existence. So we have faith in material existence, so therefore we break faith in the spiritual, or even something else and we create that constant. Material means it is always changing. So if I break faith in one thing it will change, so therefore then the mundane is... So Kṛṣṇa says, the living entities are maintaining the universe, right? We think, no, Kṛṣṇa is maintaining. No, Kṛṣṇa creates the facilities, but it is only there and it runs because of the living entities are maintaining it through their desire that it does go on. 

Because the point is is, if something breaks down, like I have seen it so many times... Means, it's kind-of like there is that kind of romantic idea that there should be something ideal, but then so many times that is broken because of this material world, devotees will put that unto the spiritual. And I have actually seen they are actually in one way happy that somebody  has fallen down or a project fell apart, and "Yeah, I knew it couldn't last..." Because if it can't last then that means my mundane consciousness and my inability to maintain spiritual focus and thrust is also okay. Do you understand? It has a fruitive purpose, having that attitude. Because then I can go ahead and do whatever I want independently. While if actually it works, the person was Kṛṣṇa conscious their whole life and went back to Godhead, or a marriage worked, or, you know, they were a good leader their whole life, or the project started off and it developed, then that means then I have to, then there is the possibility then I have to surrender to God. Maybe Guru, sādhu and śāstra is right, I have to surrender. While if it doesn't work then, "See, it doesn't work, so I can be independent." That is the underlying mentality, like that. So that is the thing, because what we do we take very seriously, therefore it seems very real and important, you know. We don't like anything that seems like a game, but the point is is, it is all a game. So now it is just a matter of, is it Kṛṣṇa's game or is it our game? That is the choice. Game it will be, it's just whose game?

Mātājī (3): How do you check if you are really surrendered?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: How to check if you are really surrendered? Well, first would be to see if what one is doing is according to Guru, sādhu and Śāstra, that is always there. Then see the body, the mind, the words, those all also connect. So maybe the body is doing, but the mind and words are not, or the words are but the body and mind is not. You know, like this. So we have to see that all of them are there. But we start someplace and then from there, even though the others may not be there, we don't throw out what is good, that is an important thing. It is ignorance where you throw out. You know what I am saying? We have, it is two methods. You have white at one end, you have black at the other, and we have various shades of gray in the middle, that is one system. Another system is you have white and then you have black. Right?

Mātājī (3): Can you give an example?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Can we give an example? Okay. One example is is that, okay, maybe there is some flaw in it, but it works, or there is something I can still gain from it. The other is, if there is a flaw in it, it is useless, it is thrown out. So generally... How you say? You will find different people are more accommodating, therefore they see these shades of gray, and people who are not accommodating, they see black and white. 

Mātājī (3): So Prabhupāda could see anything...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So Prabhupāda could see anything anywhere. He is going to San Francisco, he is arriving there, he is met by 50 long-haired, dirty West Coast, you know, Haight-Ashbury hippies, right? So they like chanting; they see, they understand that I am not this body, by theory; they understand that to please Kṛṣṇa is the goal of life, and that's it. The rest of the time they are smoking dope, having sex, doing whatever they do, they never take their baths, you know, they are just perfect, typical West Coast dirty hippies. But Prabhupāda doesn't go, "Oh, a bunch of dirty hippies, what can we do?" No, he sees that they have caught this aspect of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, therefore then he cultivates. That is why he could do it and his Godbrothers couldn't.

Mātājī (3): So we should deal with ourselves like this?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Shall we deal with ourselves? Shall we deal with ourselves like this? Yes, but it has to be understood how that works. In other words, where there is fault that has to be removed, what is good that should be cultivated, but we should never think that the position that we are at now is fine, that is where the weakness comes. If we deal like that with others then we are generally more kind and outgoing in that. If we deal like that with ourselves, we generally got complacent because... So then the point is is, you have to... There is complacency and then there is ignorance, depression. So both are a problem because both mean no activity. So technically they are both ignorance, just one is positive ignorance, one is negative ignorance. So the point is is, one has to see is that whatever is the position, you start there and you know where you are trying to go, so therefore you make a plan to connect the two.

Prabhu (3): Exactly right...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, yeah, and then you move through. Whatever whatever stage they are at, you move through. So the same way with oneself, whatever stage you are at you move through. It is not that we are okay, others need work, no, we need just as much work. But if you berate yourself for past failures you won't progress. So there has got to be, something is wrong it is recognized that it is wrong. So either we don't recognize it, "No, no, it is fine," and maintain our ego, or, "Oh, no, I can't do anything... Oh this, oh that," and then you can't do anything either. So the point is is, okay, we did that wrong, now how to improve it? What was good about it, keep that; what was not good, correct that and move forward. So that is the mode of goodness, so you are actually dealing with what is happening now. The past, you learn from it, but you don't live in it; and the future you don't live in either; you know where you are going but you don't live there. One can say, "No, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the future!" No, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is present. Does that make some sense? Yeah? Okay. Yes?

Prabhu (4): Why sādhana-bhakti is described as obligatory, so what is the difference between that and fear?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: What is the difference between obligatory and fear? Fear means, means, you have the positive... Fear is negative in that you think that if I don't do this or if some situation is not there, an activity is not there or a goal or something is not attainable, that is lost, then there is loss. Hmm, that didn't quite... Wasn't a complete sentence, was it? Okay. "If I don't do this I will lose, or, so by doing this I will gain." Right? That is the principle fear is working on. Obligatory means is that there is... But it is not necessary, you are not looking at the relationship in fear because you have separated relationship: that is what fear means, you cut yourself off from relationship. But obligatory means you are looking at the relationship, it is an obligation, there is a relationship there, so, therefore, in that relation with the other person you need to do this. But it is vaidhi, it is not spontaneous. So it works, it establishes relationships, so if you act on duty you have relationships. If you act on fear you have no relationships, right, because you only do it because you are going to lose something.

Means, something is going on, the wife behaves in a certain way, husband gets upset and that, and then out of fear the wife then starts to be nice, pleasant, do this, do that, will do all the things she should do because she is afraid of the loss. But it is not that she is thinking the positive of the relationship or the obligation, she is just thinking of her loss. Otherwise then it would just be performance of duties, whether she wants to or not. But because she acts when she wants she does it, when she doesn't want she doesn't do it, therefore then there is the opportunity, the possibility of loss if the husband somehow or another there is a little bit of detachment where... Or there is at least repulsion then there will be loss, then one follows, rather than: "No, this is the duty, so like it or not, it is done," then the relationship is maintained. Do you understand? So does that make some sense?

So that is why Kṛṣṇa is always saying, "Perform your duty," because then there is a relationship. But otherwise, he is leaving the battle out of fear of loss. It seems very nice that he is going and giving up, and compassion, and going to the forest, but it is actually fear of loss because what he is afraid of losing is the nice family relationship. So if he doesn't fight, goes in the forest, the family remains, he could at least remember about it, right? You could think back and see, "Yeah, we used to do this, we used to do that," but if he has the battle, all those people are gone. So, therefore, out of fear then he is giving it up, and the symptoms of fear are there, though they manifest as something else.

Means, there is only, basically speaking, there is a few chemicals in the body, and when those dump into the system, you always get the same symptoms, though the mind, depending on the situation interprets them differently. Right? Adrenaline dumps into the system, you get butterflies, you know, there is disturbance in the shoulders, there is the feeling of everything repressed or coming at something is there. So that happens when you walk down a dark alley and something makes a noise. It also happens when the boy touches the girl. But one is considered, "Oh, this is this," the other one is of the specific that. It is the same exact experience, physically. Does that make sense? So it is just a matter how it is interpreted, so it is a matter of you perform the duties, then it functions, relationship is there. You function out of fear, no relationship is there, even though it seems you are doing the same thing. "Oh, I did," but that is only based on justice, "Okay, they have done this much, if I really calculate, yeah, the guy did do all these things, and so, therefore, it deserves five minutes of smiling and doing this," so then they do it. But it is still working out of fear, it is not based on relationship. Relationship is: this is my duties in this relationship, this is their duties in the relationship, we both do it, then it works. So Arjuna is a warrior, therefore it is his duty to fight, and then other warriors on the battlefield, then they will also feel that kṣatriya mood, that chivalry and the relationship will be there. If he leaves then where is the relationship? It is lost, you know. So that is why it is considered irreligious, because the relationship is lost. You can transform a relationship, you can't lose a relationship. Does that make some sense? Like that. Is that okay?

Prabhu (5): When you are rendering service to your, to the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa in a religious institution, [indistinct] ... institution, sometimes you find yourself under an authority within that institution that... [indistinct] your vision... [indistinct]  are qualified, but by the past activities and past events... How do you deal with that?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: How do you deal with working under an authority that doesn't appear to be qualified? The thing to check is is how do they engage you? Because there is a few things there. One is their actual ability to perform the service; two, there is their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, meaning there is their own personal nature and character, like that. So what we are looking for is, we are looking to be engaged in the Lord's service. So if they are actually engaging us in the Lord's service, even though there they may not be great managers or their character may not be, [it may be] bad, they may even be motivated why they are getting you to do it. They are getting you to go out and do big collection, telling you,"You know, it is for Kṛṣṇa," and all that, but the main thing for them is that they will look good amongst the other temple presidents that their temple collects the most. But the point is is, that going out and collecting, you are doing it for Kṛṣṇa, it is bonafide and that. As long as they are engaging you in bonafide activities, even if their mentality is wrong, their nature is wrong, it doesn't matter. You will go back to Godhead, they won't, like that. Maybe by you going back to Godhead they will get benefit, you know, they did happen to be the temple president of the devotee who went back to Godhead, so there is some benefit for them. So as long as that... But if they are not engaging you in Kṛṣṇa conscious activity, then you can see that then it is something for discussion, and if there is no discussion then for finding another situation. That is why intelligence must be used, but one can't use it as an excuse to not surrender.

Prabhu (5): [Indistinct] Yeah…

HH BVPS Mahārāja: That is the point. Yeah. So that is... Generally, most places, most authorities do engage people in proper activities, though they as persons may be hard to deal with, their abilities to do that service may or may not be so good, you know, like that, but generally... So their personal duties may be difficult, but the activities they engage you in are generally okay. So as long as that is there, then it is an opportunity to develop humility, tolerance, forgiveness, all those things. But if the activity... If the situation is not right for being engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness then you should find another situation that is, but it cannot be out of trying to avoid surrender. Because many people, they can find fault in anything, you know, that is... So finding fault is not necessarily a real symptom of qualification, right? To find a fault means you have to compare something, so that means one uses intelligence. But if you decide whether it is a fault or not, that is the mind. So if someone's mind is not improved, they will find fault in anything, but if the mind is improved they will only find fault in what is considered fault by Guru, sādhu and śāstra, like that. So that's... One always has to be careful that... Because it is a double thing, it is not...

Many times it is either everyone else's fault, or, "Yes, I am so useless." But both are based on ignorance. No. Others we work with, and then what is good we take, what is not good we leave. And then with ourselves is, what is useful then we engage that in Kṛṣṇa's service, what is not useful, we drop that, or we make a plan how to drop it.

Prabhu (6): Mahārāja, those who are leaders, sometimes it is the devotees who are leaders by themselves, naturally they find that they can do it better, to start to move on and open themselves another temple...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. No, that is there, that is also another option. He is saying, is one moves if one can do it... Prabhupāda would do that. He had two answers to someone who would make a complaint about the temple president: one was, "First do what they are doing, then talk," that would be for the person who doesn't have the qualification; and the other is, "Great, you do it, I will take this temple president, since they have proven themselves, and take them and open some new project." So, you would get one of those two from Prabhupāda. So it depends, if one has the ability then it can be taken as an opportunity to do something. It is, in both cases one has to be careful of the false ego, like that, it is always a problem that you get. Looks nice? Yeah?

Prabhu (7): So, you were talking about the form. Are certain forms more conducive, or will certain forms not allow devotional advancement, or feelings, or whatever cannot miss in certain forms, or allow certain forms...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means, are certain forms allowed and certain forms not allowed?

Prabhu (7): No, allow the devotion, the principle behind it to manifest itself.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Oh, okay, are certain forms better for devotion manifesting and certain forms not? Yes. What is connected with the scriptures then is the better form, it is the superior form because that has a way that it can be nicely dovetailed. Those forms that are not supported by Guru, sādhu and śāstra, those forms are more difficult, you know, to connect them. Sometimes they can be connected, but they actually have to be connected. It is just like you would have... I think it was... Who was it, with the sword? Who?

Prabhu (7): [Indistinct]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, not that one, it was an Ālvār.

Prabhu (7): Oh, Nīla Ālvār...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Nīla Ālvār. So he built the third wall around the Śrī Raṅgam temple, big wall, very thick, very high, it is like 20 feet high, I don't know, three, four, feet thick? Something? You have never seen it? Big, thick wall, big. So he built that, he built that by... He had three disciples: one could hide in his own shadow, one could open any lock, and the other could walk on water. And so then in the day they would do their service to the Deity, and in the night they would go out and use their specialties, and just do saṅkīrtana for building the wall. So, you know, so it was directly from them.

Prabhu (7): [Indisctinct] That was connected?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: It was connected because they were building the Lord's wall, so even though it is not great then it is there. But when Rāmānuja, before he left, then he also, you know, sent those devotees back to Godhead because [laughter] they wouldn't... They wouldn't be able to function on their own without him and keep it in Kṛṣṇa's service, nor would anyone else.

[Laughter]

Do you understand? Hmm?

Prabhu (8): You said something about the boat?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah.

Prabhu (7): He got them to walk on the water and set it on fire…

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Something, and then he walked back, yeah. [Laughter] Something like that. So the point is is, these things are there. So one has to be very, very careful and very honest doing something. The point is is, honesty is important. All these qualities we talk about, we have to start with ourselves, you know, if honesty is important for us then we have to be honest with ourselves. Honest doesn't mean facts and figures, it means what is actual purpose behind something, our motive behind something, what is our... What we are actually, why we are actually doing it. Is it actually just? What is justice? Those kind of things. Does that make sense? Yes?

Prabhu (9): Is smaraṇa a form?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Is smaraṇa, is remembering a form? Yeah, it is a form, it is a form that is used, it is very favorable in all of the forms, but it is specifically like a Bhāgavata form, hearing, chanting remembering, like that. But of them, even hearing and chanting is considered better forms than even remembering because sometimes one can remember or not, but hearing and chanting one can always do. Even if one is not remembering, hearing or chanting can go on, so they are considered the topmost, is hearing and chanting. So even in occupation for a brāhmaṇa, the topmost occupation is studying the scriptures, teaching the scriptures; that means hearing and chanting. The topmost activity that they perform is japa, that is the best, it is considered the best activity. And the best form of purification is reciting the scriptures. So you see, even within the Varṇāśrama system, its most essential elements is still hearing and chanting. So it is the best. So smaraṇa is a form, but that will be within the Bhāgavata, Pañcarātrika, like that. So it is definitely a good form.

Prabhu (9): [Indistinct] But since the living entity is always fearful... [Indistinct] what is a duty....

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Why would you choose duty if you are working on fear?

Prabhu (9): If everyone is fearful.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: If everyone is fearful why choose duty? Because by duty there is the feeling that there will be less loss.

Prabhu (8): [Indistinct]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: In the beginning, yes, that is why one, in the beginning the duty being based on fear, that is why one has that the... It is pointed out that there is sakāma and niṣkāma. Sakāma means I am doing it out of fear because then I don't want loss, I want gain. So then one may always be in a positive attitude, and so that moves forward like that, but that may be tested when there is loss. So because of one's previous piety and all that one is always getting gain and one is always performing pious activities, so more gain is always coming. But if for some reason that there was ever at any time some impropriety then something at some point is lost, then immediately then there may be that fear, will rise again, so the negative. So a lot of times it will be, it will happen because of of fear, but that is, it is not a problem because it is connected to Kṛṣṇa. That is the thing, is everything connected to Kṛṣṇa it doesn't matter. So even like Kaṁsa is fearful of Kṛṣṇa, but he is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, so it is better than not, it is a step up. So just because we may start from that platform that doesn't mean that we don't engage it, because there is not another alternative, if one is on that platform one doesn't have another alternative, so one just engages it.

So out of fear one is performing, one is going to Maṅgala-āratika out of fear, "Well, if I don't, what will happen? Or if I don't chant or if I don't follow the principles and I don't, then what will happen?" Then that is okay because then that inspires you to do the positive, to do something, and you are doing it for Kṛṣṇa. It may be mixed, but you are doing it for Kṛṣṇa, then with time then you start doing it because that is your duty and you are not fearful. Because technically, fear, basically, is in a major way, is lost at niṣṭhā, in anartha-nivṛtti because it is the anarthas that create the fear. That is why the more attachment you have the more fear there is, because there is more chance of loss. So that is why it is, you see great devotees like Sudāmā Vipra, he is not worried about fear therefore he can have unlimited wealth and be peaceful, because he knows this is for Kṛṣṇa's service. If it is there he uses a lot for Kṛṣṇa and if nothing is there then he uses whatever he has got for Kṛṣṇa, so then there is no fear. Or Prahlāda Mahārāja, because he is servant of Kṛṣṇa, therefore his father kills him or doesn't kill him, there is no problem because he will always serve the Lord, so he... There is no fear. So this is the platform of niṣṭhā, they are fixed.

Prabhu (8): Nṛsiṁhadeva is the most fearful because... [indistinct]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. Is that okay?

Prabhu (10): Mahārāja, you talked about faith, that faith is the most important thing, that the activities which regulate [Indistinct]... situations where many devotees have to go through situations that they have to get marks...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Get what?

Prabhu (10): Marks.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Marks?

Prabhu (10): Marks, yeah, marks.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Marks? Oh, okay. I thought you said "monks", you have to get some monks. [Laughter] Okay.

Prabhu (10): So and then you have... And because many devotees may get this mark, that mark, and sometimes ....[indistinct] Or is it, is it...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Well that's another thing, because here we are discussing what is... We are discussing the fear, we are not discussing the detail of the form. Means you have traditional and you have modern forms, right? So in any case, especially for a student there must be some kind of test at some point, you have to have a test, right? So without a test how do you know if they are progressing? So the point is is that by the mark you know how much you have progressed, if you are gaining what it is that the teacher wants you to know. So it is a method for a teacher to understand the progress of the student. So it is one. One, one could have tests, one could make the continuous assessment, one can... There is different ways, whatever you check. I remember, for one teacher, the Bhakti-śāstrī final exam, he had this big box, big metal box, and everybody had to come up to the box and take something from the box and then apply it. And how well they applied it they got their mark. So everyone came and stood around the box, he opened the box, it was full of brooms; handed everyone a broom, gave them a place to sweep, and then he saw how they swept. Their mood of sweeping, how well they swept, how well they cleaned up, you know, did they put the broom back, what they did with the garbage? Because the point is is, Kṛṣṇa is telling Arjuna to do your duty and think of Him and do it for Him, so then here was the practical application.

Devotees: [Indistinct]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, so that was, that was... So there is many ways that one could have a test. But testing must be there, that is one of the elements of relationship between teacher and student, is testing.

Prabhu (10): So how to determine the faith if the test is failed by the devotees?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: If the devotee fails the test, how will it test his faith? Well, it depends on faith in what?

Prabhu (10): Am I competent to be a devotee if I failed?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: If you failed, are competent to be a devotee? Since when does being a devotee depend upon, you know, particular marks? Just like this, okay, who can be the better devotee, the one who can eat three kilos of halava, or the person who can only eat 100 grams of halava? And what about the person who can't eat halava, so he eats fruit. So which one of those three could be the devotee? Do you understand? Yes, the point is is, why make a standard that only if you pass the test with a certain amount of marks you can be a devotee, and if you don't you are not? Because that is testing study ability, one's absorption, you know, one's intelligence, that is what it is testing, right? It is not testing whether you are a devotee or not. You know, if... Does that makes some sense? So the point is is, why are you even studying? What is your purpose in studying? Is it to please Kṛṣṇa or it is to please yourself, or it is to become, you know, the biggest paṇḍita in the universe, or...? What is the purpose in studying, why study?

Prabhu (10): [Indistinct] to the student before taking up something like that... [Indistinct] we are really affected by the mark... [Indistinct] a course... And then we have reason for coming all the way to do this course, therefore wherever they come from... before... passing becomes a big thing...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: It is a big thing, but is it a big thing on devotion or was it a big thing on time and money? Where is the loss? Right? Because in devotion there is no loss, you made your endeavor. You may have lost, you know, four months of time and a thousand dollars, that is another thing. So why base one's faith in Kṛṣṇa on that? Otherwise then that is maybe, that is artha. If you get artha then this religion is good, if you don't get artha then this religion is bad. Or it is anxiety, you know, it creates so much anxiety, "I joined this movement to get away from anxiety and I am getting anxiety, therefore this is not a good religion." Or it is knowledge, "I have joined because of knowledge, so, therefore, here is an opportunity for knowledge, I can't gain the knowledge, so therefore I am not interested in this religion, I will go somewhere else." You know what I am saying? So these are all... One has to see what is the motive, why, where is the value? Because otherwise why would it be interpreted that way, that you pass or fail a test then that tests your devotion? You know what I am saying? It is a matter of who are you doing it for? Why are you doing this? That is where the test of devotion is. So that is the real question, is why is one coming from all around the world, why is one spending so much money and so much time to study this? What is the purpose?

Prabhu (10): Purification.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, it is purification, if it is this that, so if you pass or fail you can always do it again, if the marks are not great or... So it is a matter of, did you gain from it? Because the point is is, the teacher cannot teach you everything. The teacher can teach you how to study and contemplate and apply, that is what they can do because the scriptures, it is unlimited what knowledge is there and its application is unlimited, so they can give you a glimmer, an idea of how to do. Just like you say, "cooking", it is unlimited what you can do, but the methods of cooking and how it works, that the teacher can teach you. Then from there you can unlimitedly go on and develop. Does that make some sense? So like that, you can't teach everything, you can't teach every recipe in the universe, no. You can teach a method by which you can cook, and you may for example give some recipes. So it is something that they can relate to, because in the beginning they may not be able to relate to the concept or the, how you say? The system of the cooking. But you can relate to a recipe and then through the recipes you point out the system, then even though you have learned 10 recipes, but you can cook hundreds of preparations because you understand the system at work. So they can give you some idea of knowledge: how to study, how to apply it, that they can train them. But they can't train you in the whole thing. Does that make sense? So then if one has gained that then one can go on and continue to study. If one didn't gain that then, yes, then there may be some loss. But then one knows that one has to try harder or this is not one's field to spend one's time and money, right? If studying doesn't work then try something else, there is plenty of other activities. Does that make sense? Yes?

Prabhu (11): How do we overcome the attachment for a particular form of devotional service and doing that, a particular kind of service [Indistinct] And then how can we be Kṛṣṇa conscious and [Indistinct] ...that I can't see that it is devotional service, I can't surrender to that kind-of... How do we become freed from having been attached to a particular form and come more to surrendering to whatever is asked?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay. So the question is is how to not be attached to the form, but be more willing to surrender to whatever is needed? First of all, it is not a problem being attached to the form because in the conditioned state we have a form, a nature that has a particular form of expression. And the point is is, body, mind and words should be engaged. So by using those forms that are closer to our conditioned nature we will be the most engaged, right? So then that is not a problem because the point is is, if one's purpose is "I am doing this because then I will be the most Kṛṣṇa conscious, what is the problem? If it is like "I want to do this service because then I want to distribute the books, because then, you know, every morning that they are going to call out my name and go 'Haribol!' and give me a cake, you know, and if I type data in the interface they never go, you know, 'Bhakta Harald typed in 2,396 characters yesterday, Haribol!'" You know, no one says that, so if that is your purpose then that is not... That is okay, you like that, then that is there, but that is still pretty mercenary, it is still very neophyte. But if it is a matter of "This service then I feel the most engaged, it engages the most aspects of my mentality and propensities, that is why I like it and I can relate to it, I can do it nicely for Kṛṣṇa," then that is not a problem, that is normal, and an expert manager should be able to identify that.

At the same time you do have what is called emergency service, so it may be you are better at one thing, but there is an emergency, so for a certain amount of time then they perform that emergency service. Then it is just a matter of seeing that it is necessary, it needs to be done, you see the bigger picture, and so then you take part. But at the same time one should know one's limits and one's, the authority should also know the limits. They shouldn't think, "Okay, we found a guy and that's it." No, we found a guy, but it is not his nature, but he could do it, let's say, for three months, so they got three months to find someone else. If not then they have to relieve him, and then the problem should be the leader's, not the person's. Because if they push them beyond the three months then something will go wrong, then neither you have someone doing it, nor do you have anyone out distributing books. So that is called bad manager. So it is from both sides it has to be being taken care of, right? We have to see, okay, what is our motive in doing it? If the motive is good then if the opportunity is there, take it, and if the opportunity is not there, then take something that will engage something. Like that. So it is, you know, we type information in, but that goes out to the people and then they get that, they are preached to through that. So maybe you are not directly doing it, but it is happening, so you are indirectly connected with the preaching. Does that make some sense? Yeah. So then that is there, and then when the opportunity is there for a service that is, that one feels more comfortable with, then one does that.

So it is not a matter of it has to be given up. That is not the point of surrender. Surrender is that one's body, mind and words are engaged in the Lord's service, it is not that you are doing this and not that. It can be used as a form if there is attachment. But the problem is, attachment is not a problem, it is being detached from Kṛṣṇa that is the problem. You know what I am saying? So attachment can be used in the Lord's service, that is fine, that is the thing. Why are we using this example here of women's attachment to their husband? Because Krishna is the husband, therefore it is perfect. Because if this example works, it means any other example will work, because this is the most attached. So it is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, so it is fine.

So a lot of times you make a mistake in the point of detachment that we don't do the work. But that was Arjuna's mistake: "I am not attached to the result, therefore I don't do the work." So that is jñāna, that is the jñāna-mārga. So that is off the razor's edge. So, "Oh, you are too attached to service, this that..." What is the problem? Unless that service is of absolutely no importance.

Prabhu (12): Maybe he is acting independently?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Maybe he is acting independently, so that is the point you are showing to get at, so therefore they should say, "You are independent," not "You are attached." Because otherwise, if you say it is attachment, then you create this false sense of detachment. So the point is is, you are performing the duties, but with detachment. Like previously, you are married, then... But you have to be detached. I remember one devotee was going to get married, he was a brahmacārī, grew up with him, and then they are, "Oh, I don't know about this, all the brahmacārīs and this and that, and then they all got together, and he says, "Okay, you can get..." because he was going to put on white, "You can put on white, but you got to wear saffron kaupīnas." [Laughter] Like that. Then they felt, "Okay, it is okay."

So this is... This whole thing of... But it is then, you are detached means you don't interact with the family, don't deal with it, are not nice to them, are not considerate towards them, are not sensitive towards them, that is the sign of detachment. No that is a sign of a bargain (?) [Indistinct]. Because if you are detached it doesn't matter if you deal with it or not. That is actual detachment. If by dealing with it it creates attachment, you are not detached, so that is called repulsion, right? So that was taken as detachment. No, performing your duty with detachment that is real detachment, that gets you liberation. The other one doesn't get you liberation.

Prabhu (12): Bhoga-tyāga.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, it is bhoga-tyāga. Does that make some sense? So this is what is un-understandable about it, is bewildering about it, is that the form is done, it may seem like attachment, but it doesn't matter because the soul by definition is attached, right? It is energy, so it has to attach itself to to the energetic.

Prabhu (12): That's [indistinct] ...that soul by definition is attached.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Is attached. It can't be... By definition Kṛṣṇa, the Energetic, He is detached, and He is the only one, that's it. Vraja Kṛṣṇa is the only one that is completely, absolutely detached.

Prabhu (12): Even the vilāsa forms are attached.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, even all the expansions of Kṛṣṇa, even though They are independent in Their relationships, are still attached to Kṛṣṇa because They are expanding from Him. So the soul is attached. So the problem is not attachment. It is that the attachment is not on Kṛṣṇa. But you don't want to create this pendulum swing where now the politically correct phrase is, "No, attachment is okay, it is just a matter of, hey attachment, everything is attached to this, attached to that..." No. Of the two, detachment is more the word of the day than attachment. Attachment to Kṛṣṇa, detachment from the material energy. So if you are dealing with anything in the material world, detachment is the principle. If you are dealing with anything to do with Kṛṣṇa, then attachment is the principle. So one has to know how to apply it, otherwise then now it is, "Oh, no it's fine! If I can deal with my family, we have to be with the family, we have to put on..." No, but we said you still have to be detached, you are supposed to do it because of duty. But now it is like, "It is okay to be attached, so only because I am attached now I am taking care of the family, and if I am detached I don't take care of the family." No. Your duty is to take care of the family, but you must be detached to do that, because in attachment no one really takes care nicely, not in the material world.

Prabhu (12): [Indistinct]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, because you are too involved, you can't deal with it properly. The more detached you are the more you can deal with it, right? Like the parent gets on your case about something, and it has got so many emotions and this and that, and it is something painful. But the grandparents get on the case about it, it is really clean because they couldn't care less if you do it or not. They say, "Yeah, if you have to do that, this will happen," you know, because they have been there, done that. So then you kind-of go, "Really?" And the parent, "No, no, you can't do that! This, that, this, that.." so many things like that, Then it's kind-of, "Leave it out," because... Because of detachment. So detachment is the principle that makes things work. Detachment makes attachment work. Because Kṛṣṇa is detached, therefore the attachment of the moving entities works.

Prabhu (12): That's [Indistinct]... but it is not real.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. Because the point is is, when there is detachment, detachment pulls. So as you are attached the others becomes... Right? The man becomes very... Here. The man becomes very attached to the woman, the women become more confident and this and that, and more controlling and all that, right? As soon as the man becomes detached, then the women become more attached that way, it is just automatic. It is just, you just have, it is movement of energy. You move it one way, the other one moves the other. You pull it back this way, it moves this way. That is the way it is, it just functions like that. You know, kid: "No, no I don't want..." "Okay, let's go to the temple!" "No, I don't want to go, this, that..." "Okay, you stay here, I'm going!" "No, no, I am coming..." [Laughter] Immediately, right? So that is how it works, but if you say, "No, no, you got to go to the temple, this, that," then they get more and more thing in there because of your attachment there, it is clashing. Just say, "Okay, you stay here, you know, I will go to the temple, nice ecstatic kīrtana, you can stay here in the nice boring house and do nothing, you know, go ahead! Haribol!" And the kid, "Okay..."

So detachment makes it work, it is the key but it is a key that we have never, ever thought about, and by logic it doesn't seem to be right. Because you are attached, you do it, if you are detached you don't do it, but here the principle is because you are detached and you are dutiful, you do it, therefore you get the best result. Because the result is not for us. We are working on the principle, "I do the activity, I get the result, I enjoy the result." But the point is is, the jīva can't enjoy the result because the result is Kṛṣṇa's. Only Kṛṣṇa can perform the activity, get the result and enjoy it. The energy can perform the activity, get the result and give it to Kṛṣṇa. That is the whole point, that is a really tough one, right? The man who is the most detached in the house and he performs his duties the best, he has the most opportunities. The women will deal with him the best, they will have the most positive interaction, the most service, most facilities, but because he is detached he can't enjoy it. He just experiences the nice atmosphere, but he can't drop it down to the sensual platform, it can't become his gain. As soon as he does then he is out of that, and then then he doesn't get it. So that is what he is saying, the sleep, because you are sleeping, then you can perceive that it is nice, but you can't focus on it. As soon as you focus, it is gone.

Prabhu (12): It's all a mental... [Indistinct]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, it is all... It is all a mental game. [Laugher] That's why it is so funny you can hear devotees sitting around and taking things so seriously on certain platforms, you know, and especially modern contemporary interaction, and social values and all that, it is kind-of like, it is very laughable.

Prabhu (12): The platform…

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. So it's, it is... Does that make some sense? So it is a very subtle thing there, it gets very technical. So that is the point is, if you are detached, you have it, and as soon as you want it, it is not there. Does that make sense? It is just like you take that... How you say? The man is working, there is so many women there, and he is just interacting normally, going about, not noticing what they look like, and he can be there all day with them. But as soon as he looks and tries to see how good-looking they are, immediately it is like, "What are you looking at?" Do you understand? So this means, you can have, it means you can be in the environment, but it is not yours. As soon as you try to claim it, you lose it. That is how it works, that is the way energy functions. So only the Energetic can have it and enjoy it, because it is Him, it is not something separate. So the oneness, Kṛṣṇa sees the oneness, therefore it is with Him. We see the difference.

Prabhu (12): It is only when we turn right Kṛṣṇa is in the middle…

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, when it is turned right, Kṛṣṇa is in the middle, so if Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there, the experience is there, good experience, good result is there, everything works positive. But the key is detachment and doing it for Kṛṣṇa. Means, being in knowledge, so we perform it properly, you see His place, detached that you are not interested in the result, and you are detached means you are attached to Kṛṣṇa, so you are doing it for Kṛṣṇa. So that is what the Gītā is explaining: because he is attached therefore he can't function; he is detached, then he doesn't want to function. No, you have to function with detachment. Then we see, that is what he did and we are still talking about Arjuna on the battlefield. Everything works like this. As soon as you are attached... Means, it is just like this: you are cooking and you think, "Yeah, it's going to be great, this and that," you will generally find, guaranteed, it is the worst prep, guaranteed. As soon as you think, "Yes, it is happening," then you lose, it is gone. Because that is the thing, as soon as you become conscious of that, I mean, focus on that, you are losing it. So that is there in anything.

Prabhu (12): Ahaṅkāra, ahaṅkāra, I am the doer.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, yeah, I am the doer. So it is in any form: in knowledge, in management, in business, in art, one always has to be detached from it because it is Kṛṣṇa who is doing it, so one becomes the medium for it. That is the thing here: the queens are the medium or the instrument. This verse is in instrumental voice, like that, the word that is prominent here is the women, they are the instrument to Kṛṣṇa's tasting this rasa. So their movements become something for Him to go through, so it becomes... It says... Does that make any sense? Okay, we will get back to you, just get there... Yes, Mātājī?

Mātājī (4): Mahārāja, please allow to ask a question concerning surrendering. In Bhagavad-gītā, Chapter 2 verse 7 Arjuna says, "Now I am your disciple and surrendered soul to you, please instruct me," But in the first verse of Chapter 3 Arjuna seems very confused, he asks Kṛṣṇa that "If You think intelligence is much better than fruitive work, then why do you want me to be engaged in this ghastly warfare?" So the day before yesterday, Jananivāsa Prabhu's scripture class, he mentioned in the class that actually somehow the whole Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa is talking about bhakti-yoga, so Arjuna couldn't understand it, so he would take it as jñāna, sometimes he would take it as karma, so that means at that point he is not surrendered, but in the previous chapter he claimed that he is surrendered. So this reminds me of the kind-of phenomena in ISKCON. We join ISKCON, we get initiation from a Guru and we claim ourself to be surrendered souls or surrendered disciples, but actually we have not really surrendered. So can you please help me to analyze it, [Indistinct] so for surrender there are two terms, one is ātma-nivedanam, surrendering everything to Kṛṣṇa, and the other term is śaranāgati, that conveys the meaning of "I am the property of Kṛṣṇa." So it is said that latter term is intended a more intimate meaning, so does that mean that tin he first one, previous one, ātma-nivedanam contains a taint of fear? Because it appears like I surrender everything to You, but later one, because I am Your property, I am Kṛṣṇa's property, so that is kind-of particularly... voluntary?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: You could all hear? Yeah? So, the surrender doesn't mean that there is not interaction. See, because there is two platforms that we... Two main spheres, there is the tattva or knowledge, and then there is a rasa or the actual application of that knowledge. So the tendency sometimes is, we view something from one and not the other. So we are looking at this, surrender, from the element of tattva, meaning that this is, surrender means you just surrender and just do what you are told and this and that. But the point is is, there is interaction. Because technically, in this case, Guru-disciple is parental rasa, so it has servitorship in it, it also has friendship in it, they are all contained in there. So then it doesn't mean that he can't ask questions. Just because one asked a question doesn't mean that one is not surrendered.

Prabhu (12): If challenging?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. But if it is in a challenging mood, that is lack of surrender. But positive inquiry, submissive inquiry, that is where Prabhupāda uses that, pranipāta, pari... Paripraśna, means submissive inquiry, then that is what is required. If you have that, then that is enlivening, because the point is is, someone only likes to teach someone who can learn. If you just tell them, there is no response... It is just like I come up to you and give you something, you know, and you just sit there. Maybe you have accepted it, but it is kind-of like, was it okay and this and that? You want to see a response. So the point is is, the teacher gives knowledge, and it is natural that there is a response. That is why Prabhupāda would ask for questions. So if there is questions means the brain is working. If brain is working then the platform for exchange is present. Does that make sense? So he is questioning because he is simply trying to... In other words, he is surrendered because he is trying to understand what Kṛṣṇa said. So in the second chapter He first explained sāṅkhya, right? Up to 39. Then at 40 He goes into karma-yoga. So then the sāṅkhya then sounded great because it is jñana. The karma-yoga, then that means there is application. One was sambandha, the other is abhidheya. So you are going to apply that. So he is saying, well, this knowledge, then you know that this and that, so you are not killing and no one is killing, and the soul is never killed, and he is foolish who thinks he kills or is killed, and so therefore it indicates no activity, you know. So then Arjuna is, "Great, I will go to the forest and all this," but then He says, no, but now you work without desire for the result because that is with that... In other words, with the sāṅkhya understanding you perform your activities, right? So that is the meaning, Kṛṣṇa says, with knowledge perform your duties, right? But that is not enough, it has to be done for Him and thinking of Him, right? So because he is asking he has already given the essence, that is why the second chapter is the essence of all of them. Because He has already given all those elements, but it is not brought out, so therefore in the third chapter then He talks more on what is the activity, He expands on that karma. But then the question is is, that is the one but what about the knowledge? So then the knowledge then in the fourth. Fifth, then He combines them, right? But then one must do it remembering Kṛṣṇa, therefore the sixth chapter, right? But then even that is not enough. If you are going to remember Kṛṣṇa, but Kaṁsa also remembered Kṛṣṇa. He has to be remembered with devotion, therefore then the 7th culminating in the 12th, right? Does that make sense?

So still you are having these same elements, then you have to get down to applying it. And then you get the technical analysis then in the 13th through 18th chapters, and that tells you more technically how it is functioning, because otherwise the mind just accepts and rejects based on that, but you technically understand what is going on. So if someone has that ability, then it is nice, and if they don't, don't worry about it because the other chapters are enough. Does that make sense?

Then on the thing about ātmanivedanam and śaranāgati, then it is the same thing. One you surrendered everything, but the other is the method through which it is surrendered, like that. We could see that. Or one is just the principle of surrender and one is the other of that interaction, the mentality. So you always have those aspects. Ātmanivedanam means it is everything, the principle that everything is given to the Lord. But now, how is that going to be shown? That is going to be shown by identifying as a devotee, it is going to be shown by being meek and humble, by accepting what is favorable for Kṛṣṇa, what is not, seeing Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa is the maintainer and one's protector.

Mātājī (4): So Mahārāja, that means there is no hierarchy between those two terms?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Not technically. One is application, one is the knowledge. That is what I am saying, one is sambandha, one is abhidheya. So your śaranāgati is your abhidheya and your ātmanivedanam is your sambandha, that is the knowledge, "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa therefore I surrender everything to Kṛṣṇa." But that process of surrendering, that is śaranāgati.

Prabhu (13): But Mahārāja, it looks like Kṛṣṇa is asking for the things... [Indistinct] Basically, surrender already.... it already involves a lot...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah. Means, you are involved. Instead of... Yeah, it is sharing, that is the thing. In other words, you are sharing your life to Kṛṣṇa. You completely share your life, then Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa will be completely involved. So however you share with Kṛṣṇa, that is how He interacts.

Prabhu (13): You said that fear is only below Varṇāśrama…

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, there is fear. Means, fear will be also within Varṇāśrama, but it is not the basis of the actual system.

The lower element is: one performs the duties. Just like you have in the Bhāgavatam, you know, the sun and the moon, and the wind blows and everything happens out of fear of Kṛṣṇa. So in the Varṇāśrama also out of fear everyone performs their duties, it is mainly fear of punishment, that is the point, it is there, the fear of punishment there. So that makes the Varṇāśrama work in the beginning, but ultimately it has got to be, is one is not interested in the result, one is simply doing it to please Kṛṣṇa. Because we are conditioned, so that is the facilities we have, so we engage that conditioned nature in Kṛṣṇa's service, and He is happy and He will reciprocate with that. So then - then it works. Is that okay? Yes? Oh, excuse me, he was first, then we will get back to you.

Prabhu (13): Mahārāja, it seems that detachment requires self-security, so...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Detachment requires self-security?

Prabhu (13): ...so how is the fear... [Indistinct]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Ahh, this is a very good point. Detachment requires... He says that detachment requires self-security.

Prabhu (13): ...so [Indistinct]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: How do you go from fear to duty? Because both in fear and in... duty is there. But then there is the element... I guess you could say, yeah, you become more secure, you have seen, "I perform the duty, it works," so one can see is that it is important to just do it. That would be one element because fear is the... Fear is the original, if you can say there is any original sin, it is that. Because fear is another form of envy, it is another manifestation of envy. So you are envious means you are fearful because if... You are only envious of something you are fearful of. You are not envious of something you are not fearful of. Does that make sense? Because Envy means that there is, you feel that something is lost or you don't have, and the other person stands in the way of that, so it's either you have it or they have it, you cannot even share it. So it is like that. So does that make sense? So it is... Yeah. So it is like lowest... Fear, that envy then is "I have it or Kṛṣṇa has it," means you can't have both. Jealousy is: "He has it, I also want it, so we could both have it," but still the relationship is not there, it is based on chivalry then. Then next you will get where you can share it, but still you are getting what you want out of it, they get what they want out of it, you know, you will take care of their need, they will take care of your needs. So you are taking care of them that you can say it is a relationship, but it is pretty common, pretty ordinary. The other then is this relationship here, the queens, so then there it is 50/50. It is shared, but it is "I get what I want, you get what you want." But then you get Vraja where it is shared but it is only for Kṛṣṇa. Does that make some sense? Okay. So, like that.

Prabhu (14): So I have two questions, one to clarify the previous question. So, that if you are doing something and then do it nicely, so it goes nicely....

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Looking at... Means, you are not looking at the experience. What we're talking about... Could you hear? So, he is talking about that in the aparokṣa that as soon as you focus on the experience then you lose the experience.

Prabhu (14): Well, if the activity is going nice and you are doing something, doing nicely, how do you think about it?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: That is the whole point is: you just think about doing it nicely and it happens, you will experience that it is nice. But if you think about about the niceness of it, you lose it. You can think about what elements will make it nice, but those are all part of the duty. That makes sense? You are performing the duty, so you know that by doing this or by doing that it will make it nice, but the experience that comes from it, you can tell it is there, but you can't directly deal with it because as soon as you do then you are not doing the activity.

Prabhu (14): So then... So the other thing I wanted to ask is, you were saying it is fear of relationship with Kṛṣṇa...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Is fear a relationship with Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhu (14): Fear, is actually fear of...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Of relationship with Kṛṣṇa, yeah.

Prabhu (14): So then how to get over that fear?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Means... Oh, how do we get over the fear of... You just have to see where it comes from. Means, if you look at it basically you have no problem with serving Kṛṣṇa and all that, but then there may be some areas of attachment that we are afraid of losing because, you know, we are not in control of it, so we don't enjoy those areas. So then we know that those are areas to engage in Kṛṣṇa's service.

Prabhu (14): [Indistinct] 

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, fear is a symptom of not having a relationship in that area, so therefore, let's say, okay, I'm going out and then something happens and then I get fearful, right? I am worried about that something is going to happen physically, right? So that means then there is a need to engage that element of fear, or the body, in Kṛṣṇa's service.

We are walking down a dark alley, we hear some noise that does not sound auspicious, right? So then we are fearful for the loss or damage to the body. So that means the body is important to us, and because of the body then it is getting in the way of our surrender to Kṛṣṇa, right? Because that is where the fear lies: it is with the body, right? Does that make sense? Yeah. So that means then we take that body, or if it was loss of life or whatever it was, you know, health, or something, and engage that in Kṛṣṇa's service, it is going to engage the body in Kṛṣṇa's service. Then it will it will start to cut that fear. Because our... What is separating us from Kṛṣṇa is the desire for the body, to control and enjoy the body, because fear means "I am not in control. That sound sounded like it is something that could give me trouble. I am not in control of that sound. I don't know what it is." You know what I am saying? Does that make sense or not? You are there, you hear this sound, okay, it sounds like about 20... How you say? Foaming at the mouth, you know, wolves, okay. Now, you are not in control of those 20 wolves, right? You don't know them, you don't feed them every day, you don't pat them on the head, and, you know, from what you have heard that wolves, especially in a pack, then... You know, then they are wolves. Means, they have no problem, like that, you will be definitely invited for lunch, but they may... You know what I am saying? So you don't have control over that, so you can't enjoy that situation, therefore there is fear: because you have lost control. So the whole point is is: since control of the body is important for you, therefore control your body and engage it in Kṛṣṇa's service. So wherever your fears are, those fears, that area, those should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service.

Prabhu (14): [Indistinct] i.. but it's like... I can't apply that because your example... For me, I can't... like okay, so...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So what do you fear? So what do you fear? It's just like this: what are you fearful of?

Prabhu (14): Okay, well, there is this... [Indistinct] Like surrendering to authorities... Your point then...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, so... So, therefore, that is important, to surrender to authority, because you have the fear of surrendering to authority because you want to be the authority. So either therefore become an authority and engage that authority-ness in Kṛṣṇa's service. But to be a good authority you have to have an authority above you because potency comes down. So that means still, okay... So, okay, I am afraid of authority because then I am not in control. So, therefore, I can be... Let me put myself in a position where I am in control, but I can... I am in control under another authority. So I have control, but I am being controlled, and let me do that for Kṛṣṇa. So then you are engaging that fear in Kṛṣṇa's service.

Prabhu (14): You were saying, in relationship to your other point that Arjuna said...You were saying,"What is fault? And then you said, that if there is fault according to Guru, sādhu and śāstra, you didn't say what that was, what is according to Guru, śāstra and sādhu, what is a fault?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: What is... ?

Prabhu (14): Fault.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Fault?

Prabhu (14): Yeah, you said... You were talking about, you said, "Well, is it according to Guru, śāstra and sādhu?"

HH BVPS Mahārāja: That was today or another day?

Prabhu (14): Today.

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, can you say what it was in relationship to?

Prabhu (14): [Indistinct] 

HH BVPS Mahārāja: No, that's okay, you need to give more... Because the point is is...

Prabhu (14): So then what is fault according to...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: And you have to give the context. Guru, sādhu and śāstra, and the fault, but what were we talking about?

Prabhu (14): You were saying there is either... There is two ways Prabhupāda tells the person to... [Indistinct] So then he said that the person who was... he would send that other person somewhere else... [Indistinct] 

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So what's the... What is the question?

Prabhu (14): The fault. So if that, this person who just wants to find fault with the authority, so then, like you were saying, then we have to analyze what is fault according to Guru, śāstra and sādhu. So then how do we do that?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, means we have to see what is wrong. That may have been, what we were meaning there is you have to have something, a stand you can compare something to. Because see, is many times when we explain these things, one, we will start with something generic that applies to anything. Then you start to bring it... Because there is a principle at work there. Then you bring it in line with how it will be applied. So then it has to have some direction, some choice, right? So the first is, we are just establishing that principle. Then the next is that there must be something how are you going to decide what is right and wrong? So then that is given by Kṛṣṇa, that is given through Guru, sādhu and śāstra. There you decide: is this right or not? Otherwise it will be subjective and we will decide by ourself, "I like it, so it is right. I don't like it, it is wrong." No, it has got to be according to Guru, sādhu and śāstra that this is right or this is wrong. Does that makes some sense?

Prabhu (14):  [Indistinct] ...there are so many different opinions about...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: That's why I said, you have to go back, that is what Kṛṣṇa says.

Prabhu (14): Yes, but people put all kinds of things on what Kṛṣṇa says...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: People put all kinds of stuff on what Kṛṣṇa says? Okay, so then that means, that brings out, that projects the point of lack of faith. So then all that one can do is go by one's own opinion. "Because everybody has got an opinion, so therefore why should I listen to their opinion? My opinion is, this is good, so therefore I should just function on my own." Okay, but the point is is, we do see the example of the ācāryas. And so if that is there then take what they have said and they have done and through your understanding apply it.

Prabhu (14): Yes, [Indistinct] ... we do that, but like you said, everybody has their own opinion, the ācāryas too... [Indistinct]

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Okay, now, if you are taking the point that the ācāryas have their own opinion then you have got a long time to stay in this material world.

Prabhu (14): No, that's not what... [Indistinct] ... I was thinking, we have, everybody has access to... 

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, so, therefore, take it, go off on your own, do your own thing according to what Prabhupāda says in these books here. If you can't feel that anybody else... It is just a subjective opinion, it has got... Then take it, use it, apply it yourself, at least there is focus, direction, there will be activity. Otherwise there will be ignorance and one will do nothing. So activity is better than nothing. Therefore, you know, pack up, move out, get your own thing, make your own system... You know, your own economic foundation, create your relationships within that and do that all according to how you understand Prabhupāda's books. Then you don't have to worry about anyone's other subjective opinion, you only have your opinion to deal with. So success and failure is then in your hands that you do it, you got it right, it worked; you didn't get it right, you failed. But you can't blame anyone else.

Prabhu (14): [Indistinct] Sounds like a very [Indistinct] idea...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah, but this is what Prabhupāda told Americans who had this attitude. There was a devotee in Hawaii, "You know, everybody just says..." He said, "Just do your thing." He lived outside as a gṛhastha, he did his own thing, so you do your own thing.

Prabhu (14): So how to then check oneself if one is in that position? So if I am in that position, how to check...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: So then you have to see. Can you work with anybody? Do you trust anybody? Is there anyone you trust? Or do you trust them in different areas? Somebody you trust in, okay, they got a good angle on sādhana, someone else has a good angle on this aspect of service or that aspect, and that. And can you put enough together to sustain yourself? And if so, great. If you can't then you have got to fill it in yourself. So the point is, faith has to be somewhere. If you have nobody at least you got to have faith in what you are... In what your own opinion, otherwise it can't function at all. But you may be a little lonely, but whatever.

Prabhu (14): So, it seems like it's tough luck...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: It's not a matter of tough luck, it is a matter of, what is the alternative? If you have no faith in anybody then that means you have faith in yourself and that's it. So, therefore, if you have faith in yourself, take the books, go for it. The point is is, you have to be engaged in the Lord's service and you have to do it under the authority of the Ācāryas, so here is Prabhupāda's books, take it, use it, go for it. The point is is, then there is a responsibility. Then there is a lack of wanting to take responsibility. That is also then an element here. So you have the element of lack of faith, but then there is also the lack of desire to take responsibility. We don't have faith but we want everybody else to organize it for us, and if it goes wrong it is their fault. But this one then you have faith in others and take the responsibility yourself, so if something goes wrong it is yours. You can't have both. Kids can, yes, kids just sit around, do nothing, pass stool and urine all over the place, yell, scream, eat whatever they want and take no responsibility. It works great, but, you know, once you get a little older then it kind-of like loses it. I mean, of course I have heard that they make adult diapers, yes, but still, you still gotta have someone change it for you, so you have got to find somebody. 

Or, you got to be independent, take the responsibility yourself. So you are either dependent upon others in some relationship or another, or you are independent and you control it yourself, but still you will be dependent on others, but there will be a sense of control that you are doing it yourself and it will go more nicely.

Prabhu (14): It sounds like very unhealthy attitude. 

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Yeah.

Prabhu (14): So how to break it?

HH BVPS Mahārāja: How to break it?

Prabhu (14): That's like catch-22...

HH BVPS Mahārāja: Well, it is either you analyze it and then see, okay, what is it you don't have faith in and can you find the faith anywhere? And if not then by doing it then you will see what it is like and how tough it is and how everything doesn't work perfectly and you have to make compromises in that because you are in the material world, then you may start to appreciate other authorities who on the material detail make compromises, though they maintain the principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You know, it is just like you decide, "Okay, good halavah, let us take one recipe, okay. One part butter, one part sooji, you know, one part milk, one part water and one part sugar, okay." Now, let us say that we don't have that much butter. So how to cook it with less butter? Or let's say we don't have milk. Right? You know, so how are you going to do? Okay, if you don't have water, you don't have sooji, then you don't bother cooking the preparation. Do you understand? 

So they are going to make some compromises, and so you say "Well, hey, that is not the ideal halavah recipe, you know, how could he have me cook that?!" Because there isn't any, enough butter to do with that one. So then by doing it yourself then you will start to appreciate that, yes, the material world is not perfect, this idea that everything is going to be perfect and just and fine, that is an idea for fools. Because in the material world you do the best, Prabhupāda says, you make the best of a bad bargain, that is as good as you can get. The material body is already a bad bargain, it's just, it is very limited. Being in the material world, the time and space is very limited, you know. So it is already a bad bargain. Plus here... Does that make sense? So already compromise is there. 

Plus it is that you are trying to put on the charades of that everybody here thinks they are God. Everybody in the material world thinks they are God, so they try to be the center. So it's, that is the difficult, you are not part of something, you are the center of something. So that's the difference. The Vedic is trying to take you from being the center of the universe to being part of the universe. That's what the Vedic culture is for. Otherwise, the child thinks he is the center of the universe, everything goes around him. When he wants to eat he eats, when he wants to sleep he sleeps or wants to play he plays. Anything you want. So that is okay when he is little, but as he gets older then he has got to fit it in. It has got to go from anna-maya to prāṇa-maya at some point, you know, and at some point he has to take responsibility, so he has got to go to to mano-maya, he has got to take up duties. And if you want to perform your duties properly you have to get to jñāna-maya because it has to be that knowledge, otherwise how does it work? And everything in material world is useless anyway, it is temporary, so unless it gets to the point of devotion, it is not eternal. So you have to come to ānanda-maya.

[02:19:20] [to be continued]